Social General Ice Climber Chat

[choknater]

one time when i tried short hop it was working really well

i haven't used it extensively enough to know the difference though. haha i mostly use full hop.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I have never tried short hop, only ever full.

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

i think the full hop is the best way to do it to get nana as far away as possible, i suspect if they try to DI towards you short hop is better and full hop if they di away
maybe at low percents or against heavier chars. dunno but i will try to find out

 

[Kyu Puff]

Thanks chok, it's always helpful to hear another person's perspective. I never really thought about angle of approach; watching the videos again, he consistently got around my b-air by coming in from diagonally/above. I might've been able to counter by positioning myself under the platforms more.

What you said about protecting but threatening is soo true. I even felt some momentum going into game three--he was being more careful because he realized how easily he could lose a stock. At the beginning of that game I had an easier time landing hits, but then I failed to capitalize on them and he started to set the pace again.

I have an instinctive tendency to try to get back towards the middle of the stage after getting shined, even though I know it's better to wait and see what he does. Some Foxes will try to shine -> wavedash -> keep attacking, but ICs get out of stun before he can reach them, so sometimes just waiting after you get shined can lead to a free dash attack or grab.

F-air and f-tilt are both really good in that match-up but I always forget to use them...


On the reverse d-air CG:

D-air has set knockback. Falcon is big enough that d-air will hit him immediately as soon as he's released, regardless of whether you shorthop or fulljump. Also, the shorthop version will work no matter how he DIs, but there's not really any point in learning it because it's easier to fulljump.

Falcons typically escape by SDIing up and jumping out. Most Falcons don't know how to escape/aren't consistent at it, so I haven't really spent any time thinking of DI mix-ups. If a Falcon is consistently escaping that way, maybe you could d-throw -> d-air -> f-smash to catch his second jump?

Alternatively, you can d-throw chaingrab him for a while, but it's slower and harder to do. I guess you could start charging an f-smash halfway through the throw animation to rack up damage faster. And if he's trying to SDI up, he probably won't DI away, which makes the regrab easier. (None of this is really important, though, because most Falcons you meet won't even be able to escape the reverse d-air in the first place.)

 

[knightpraetor]

"
Alternatively, you can d-throw chaingrab him for a while, but it's slower and harder to do. I guess you could start charging an f-smash halfway through the throw animation to rack up damage faster. And if he's trying to SDI up, he probably won't DI away, which makes the regrab easier. (None of this is really important, though, because most Falcons you meet won't even be able to escape the reverse d-air in the first place.)"

can't I mix in the dthrow dair so that he lands in front of me? is that easier for him to get out of? cause i thought he had to smash DI down and away for that and smash DI up for the reverse Dair..so that might be good mixup

 

[Kyu Puff]

That would work if the Falcon tries to SDI down and away. I'm pretty sure the smash DI up will work for either chaingrab, though, because it doesn't depend on which horizontal direction you send him in.

 

[Smasher89]

It can be that the dair has the wrong timing. I´ve gotten cc(?) upsmashed from a fox by doing dthrow dair. I guess we should try to get some legit info on this since I´m not sure wheter to go for the dair at all or not :/

 

[Kyu Puff]

Fox can escape just by holding down or down/away on the control stick. The nice thing is that his escape DI is the opposite of his survival DI, so at mid/high percents you can try to predict his DI and either d-throw -> d-air -> regrab, or d-throw -> f-smash. There's also grab -> charge f-smash -> regrab, which works if the charged f-smash scares them out of DIing away.

I was recently thinking about situations where someone hits your shield, and you need to wavedash out of shield to punish it, but the timing is really tight (for example, after a d-smash from Doc or Luigi). *Maybe* you can wd -> grab/d-smash if you time it perfectly, but chances are they'll get their shield up or spotdodge, turning your advantage on its head.

A while ago Wobbles mentioned that you can extend the duration of d-smash by turning around with only Popo, so that Popo d-smashes facing backwards and Nana d-smashes facing forwards. This could solve the spotdodge problem (if Popo's backwards-facing d-smash doesn't come out in time, chances are Nana will hit them after their invincibility ends), but it still loses to shield.

The dash backwards/f-smash desynch could come in handy here. (For those who don't know, it's when you input f-smash with the c-stick and dash in the reverse direction simultaneously, so that only Nana f-smashes.) If you wavedash towards them but you think they might be able to shield/spotdodge/jump before you reach them, you can f-smash with only Nana to scout for their response. If they instinctively try to punish the f-smash, you might be able dash back in safely with Popo and punish.

 

[knightpraetor]

wait a second are you saying fox can escape the IC chaingrab without smash DIing? you make it sound like he just holds a direction and gets out for free? is this true?

 

[Kyu Puff]

Yeah. He can escape with ASDI. Falco and Falcon both need smash DI, though.

 

[Smasher89]

So which is the most reliable ways, I see falcons often does a smashDI like DI upwards and get out with the jump. Is that Falcons really most reliable way of escaping the dair/reverse dairchains or has he equally good options an other way? (good to know since it´s counterable, just want to be certauin what they will likely go for for good reasoning and not just guesses)

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I think crazy upwards SDI is Falcon's best way out. He can also just quickly SDI to the ground, but that's more of a gamble.

 

[odinNJ]

Shout out to chu for zenith

 

[Fly_Amanita]

He played impressively today.

 

[Ripple]

He Adderall played impressively today.

fixed that for you

 

[Redd]

fixed that for you

Actually he was completely sober. GGs on the accusations though, ***.

 

[Ripple]

I was told he did take it by people he knows, so you can **** off

 

[Redd]

Um well I'm sitting next to him driving home and he just told me otherwise.

So I guess you can **** off instead

 

[~Twitch~]

redd don't you know?

stupid rumors carry more weight than a person's word.

also, how did you do at zenith? i didn't see.

 

[Redd]

Badly... I shouldn't have entered. I got like 17th or something. Ugh. I think my competitive days may be over lol

 

[knightpraetor]

"i just got 17th at a national.man i suck"

yeah right we'll be playing before he has been here two days.. quit smash..keep dreaming

also i can't decide whether to learn ICs vs sheik or falco vs sheik so taht i stop getting counterpicked. I think falco is a much better char overall, but IC sheik seems even better...

so if i'm only relying on it for counterpicks it might be fine. but it almost seems preferable to just learn falco and then play falco as my main vs people who main sheik.

 

[Smasher89]

Shiek vs ICs: Wait until you get a grab, Dthrow chaingrab until like 80%, charge smash/wobble like 30 % kill. Esentially playing shiek vs yoshi, where shiek is yoshi and the grab even kills.

Falco: Get grabbed and gimped, Falco is bad it´s just that people arent used to Falcos waiting to use his doublejump for recovery. One hit and he is dead in alot of situations.

Chu did nice at Zenith^^ I just wonder how he manages to make those Dthrow dairs really work so well as they did. Also noticed that Falcos up b realli isnt just gimpable with iceblock (which requires some certain hit) but is possible to get a bair in to gimp when also being able to get back onstage. Will be sure to watch that sequence again.

 

[choknater]

i had a bad and embarrassing loss to silentspectre yesterday

he came out of nowhere after 7 months and beat shroomed yesterday. man it feels like i really didn't improve THAT much hahahah. it was recorded though so hopefully yall can help me

 

[Redd]

So many players still have such issues with smash DIing out of dthrow dair. It's really not all that difficult. I can understand missing the first but yeah.

Getting to coach chu was a lot of fun lol

 

[Nintendude]

I don't get why when people play vs Chu they let him get away with d-throw dair so much, even with characters like Marth lol

 

[Kyu Puff]

So many players still have such issues with smash DIing out of dthrow dair. It's really not all that difficult. I can understand missing the first but yeah.

Getting to coach chu was a lot of fun lol

Most characters don't even need to smash DI...

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Chu has a lot of weird issues. Bad grab game, tendency to retreat a lot when he has the opponent at the edge, loses to some simple things like Sheik fair spam, etc. He's really, really good at just about everything else, though, so it works out for him anyways.

I think he's generally aware that people still fall for dthrow -> dair way more than they should, though, so I can't knock him for using it when it works on people even if it shouldn't. He's just navigating through Donkeyspace like the rest of us.

 

[Shroomed]

i had a bad and embarrassing loss to silentspectre yesterday

he came out of nowhere after 7 months and beat shroomed yesterday. man it feels like i really didn't improve THAT much hahahah. it was recorded though so hopefully yall can help me

I was beyond distracted at that tournament.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

How come I've never heard of Boback before? He's mad good.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

He was bad for a long time. He's apparently better now, although I haven't seen him play in quite a while.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RF3Pzb3Luk4

 

[Smasher89]

Is retreating at the ledge so bad?, alot of players tend to try go very high to get to the middle space on the stage, isnt that beaten by retreating to the stage?, WD smashes will work anyway to cover that space(just look at wd backward fsmash marths at the ledge...) As well as getting harder to get hit.

EDIT:
Choknater- that happens in sweden all the time, alot of people dont attend tournaments so often but get back and beats good players every now and then. If you dont attend as many tournaments, chances is that you´ll analyze matches more and better to find habits and use them against the opponents later, whereas your habits wont be shown since you wont have any videos of you playing.

 

[choknater]

interesting stuff haha. yea i notice jeff is thinking at every moment of the game, and it made me observe the game differently when i watched that he really has almost no bad habits

from watching chu's zenith sets, it looks like he is a lot more patient than i realized. wavedashes around a lot and stuff and tries to find the right time to strike. i wanna try that more, i always feel like i should be doing something but my strategies end up being broken and i'm not good at adapting. i'll try watching more closely

i lost very badly to shroomed in friendlies and SS in tournament on sunday so i hope i can get better

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Is retreating at the ledge so bad?, alot of players tend to try go very high to get to the middle space on the stage, isnt that beaten by retreating to the stage?, WD smashes will work anyway to cover that space(just look at wd backward fsmash marths at the ledge...) As well as getting harder to get hit.

Retreaing far enough so that wavedashing in is still a threat is fine. Chu would retreat way farther than that, though. Like, he'd have M2K at the left of Dreamland and then move almost under the right platform.

 

[leffen]

Chu is amazing but incredibly flawed at the same time

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

lol bobak is some old skoo ****, leffen is a ******.

 

[choknater]

i think chu retreats far because he WANTS them to come back on the stage. kinda weird, but i guess it's more of an old school habit of making the opponent do what you want them to do, rather than always fighting for positioning.


as much as we are ragging on chu right now, that performance at zenith was the best performance that an ic's has had in a long time. jman is pretty hard to beat with ic's

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Letting the opponent come back on to the stage when you're somewhere around the middle isn't bad per se in that you're still in a better position than the opponent, but you could still do better by pressuring the opponent at the edge. I don't mean to rag on Chu or anything; he's obviously great. He just has some weird faults that he manages to work around.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I'd like to fanguy over Chu some more. Can we just do that, please? He's like, the best ever.

 

[Wake]

Aww. How cute.