Social General Ice Climber Chat

[knightpraetor]

does fair have any advantages on bair when retreating to platforms? does it hit below you better or something? i see ICs jump to a platform DJ into falling fair a lot when being pressured. I was just wondering why they don't just choose to be facing backwards and use bair. this was in particular against peach where they weren't grabbing much so i figured why didn't they just face backwards to begin with DJ falling bair to cover.

also, can someone explain why nana does a fair while falling down at 7:12 in this video. She was out of command range right? so was that an AI choice? that's hard to believe. Also, I thought that if ICs get split up nana will first move as close to you as possible before regaining her normal AI. Like I know that sometimes when you're offstage she just stands and then may fight with the opponent..but i didn't think she would do it while falling down. Does vertical distance not count towards the return command so that her attack AI is in place when falling from above?

 

[Kyu Puff]

If you're trying to land on a platform and someone is approaching from beneath, you want a move that hits directly below you. F-air is nice because it can outprioritize a lot of moves if you time it right, and it hits through the platform.

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

i think it is also better than nair if you are falling forwards off of a platform.
same risk, but fair has more rewards.
reverse bair can pay off if u know how to use it
If they tech in place or roll, a grab can lead to death.
if they di up possible upair followup NOT on falco

 

[iRobinhoood]

Starting getting used to the ICs movement. My wavedash has seen a huge improvement and playing with friends I was able to do the wavedash smash attacks. I have trouble remembering to jc grab though. And when I do grab someone I don't know what to do. What's the timing of wobbling? I read the how to's but I can't get it steady. The guides aren't thorough enough. Videos??

 

[Smasher89]

NTSC specific gimp http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dg-DGsp65Ec#t=8m8s

Would be amazing to watch matches where its used, and if it works against falcon it would be soo nice against their keepaway strategies lolol

I knew that trading with falcons up-b has priority (space other climbers fair right) but if this can be set up against him it would be too fun XD Cant be the same as setting it up in a grab and should only be used for wierd kills lol.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

I'd like to fanguy over Chu some more. Can we just do that, please? He's like, the best ever.

the master returns

 

[Binx]

Chu's spacing and use of aerials is just really impressive, Wobbles still #1 in my heart though =D

 

[iRobinhoood]

Man still getting my *** smashed. I think I play to aggressive. I wavedash in and just try to clobber everything in my path. I noticed Chu Dat at Zenith moves in with a wavedash and wavedashes back and then baits an attack. These ****ers are tricky characters.

I also held a pretty nice CG today on Falco. Grab -> Nana Dair -> Grab

But I'm missing the timing for wobbling. When exactly do I tilt with Nana?

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Chu is really defensive. I think it both suits his playstyle and the ICs well. That said, you can make aggressive play work. Wobbles exerts a lot of pressure and he's the best overall ICs player there is at the moment.

 

[iRobinhoood]

Looks like its time to start watchin more Wobbles vids. I also have a hard time getting grabs with popo with Nana in relative close distance. My opponents don't go near me lmao

 

[Wobbles]

I really like attacking. I'm pretty impulsive/impatient and the hammers make a nice sound when they hit people so sometimes I get carried away. I think if I could wait a bit better, maybe focus more on some reflexive counter-hit stuff, I'd be a much better player for adding it to my game.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think Wobbles's style is really effective vs most characters because he's good at making stuff happen when he hits people and he's also good at preying on the weird pressure the threat of a clean ICs grab punish places on his opponents. I think this explains partially his weakness vs HBox (which is more a style counter than character counter, IMO, but I don't wanna get into that). HBox plays safe to the degree that I don't really think he feels that pressure as much as most players (mental fortitude too good) and it's hard to play a punishment-centric style against Puff in general. I also think... Wobbles takes a lot of risks looking for big plays, but that's not really effective vs someone who's so unbelievably conservative (HBox will exhaust you! Also, he's the character most resistant to combos, so big plays are hard to make on Puff).

Chu, on the other hand, just has a great poking game with them (and his pokes do like 20 damage, which is gravy). His player weakness of being meh at throw combos matters less vs Puff than it does vs most characters (characters that Wobbles traditionally does better against compared to Chu) because you can't do much to her anyway out of throw (grab to smash to maybe an aerial?). And I think he's had a ton of experience with defensive playstyles that throw out spaced pokes into his shield or away from him from living on the EC (not to say Wobbles doesn't, but EC is generally more defensive). So I don't think he gets bothered by the fact that there's little going on for a lot of the match at all.

 

[Engo]

scrub post: How do you perform the downthrow,full jump down air, turnaround grab chain grab(is it just doing exactly that?) and when/why do you do it instead of just down throw downair?

 

[iRobinhoood]

I love mashing things, which is why I love ICs. Now when do I downtilt with Nana for the wobble? When Popo hits with his headbutt, or a little after? And what kind of rhythm am I looking for?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I have realized that even though I can perform desyncs with either IC character I'm not sure about the frame data behind having nana only do an action after a desync initiator. For example, I can do roll->nana blizzard in real speed, but I can't do it in dolphin frame by frame. I just went through the desync guide and while it gives lots of examples of ways to desync, it doesn't actually go into detail. If anyone has this information, i would greatly appreciate it


edit- nevermind i figured it out. If you hold the button(s) for the action you want nana to do during popo & nana's lag, popo will not do the action when he leaves his lag but nana will.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I still can't beat space animals. ;_;

The only way I can keep up with Fox is by being really aggressive, because otherwise he just shines and shines and Nana dies before I can even find an opening. Chu makes it look so easy to bait approaches, wavedash back and find d-smash/grab opportunities, but when I try to emulate his style, I just end up pushing myself to the ledge and dying. This used to be one of my favorite match-ups but now it's one of the only match-ups I feel helpless in.

 

[iRobinhoood]

I hate ICs Peach MU. One of my worst EVER. I'll usually go my Falcon main against Peach.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Need advice for this match: me losing to falco

First game I got wrecked, second game I also got wrecked but managed to make a lucky comeback, and third game is a campfest on kongo jungle.

This is against a falco player I beat a few weeks ago. I think he was playing much better this time because he didn't get frustrated against me. I felt like I was playing better in some ways, but also worse--I might have changed too many of my good habits. I felt like my movement could've been tighter, and I overextended too often.

Anyways, what's a good zoning strategy against falco? I can't really hold the other side of the stage because this falco player is happy to just shoot lasers and run away.

Also, I know the theory for getting around lasers but it doesn't work too well because whenever he sees me move forward he runs away. I know that if he runs away I should be able to catch him with u-airs and turn it into an advantage, but it seems like in that situation he just manages to land more stray hits and his hits lead into way more damage than mine.

 

[Moooose]

I still can't beat space animals. ;_;

The only way I can keep up with Fox is by being really aggressive, because otherwise he just shines and shines and Nana dies before I can even find an opening. Chu makes it look so easy to bait approaches, wavedash back and find d-smash/grab opportunities, but when I try to emulate his style, I just end up pushing myself to the ledge and dying. This used to be one of my favorite match-ups but now it's one of the only match-ups I feel helpless in.

hey at least u beat me

 

[Kyu Puff]

Our set was too close for comfort though... Even though I won, I felt like you were in control most of the time and I only kept up with you cuz of some random stray hits that I didn't deserve. I also watched our match from last tournament at least 10 times so I could figure out how to beat you. Anyways it came down to last stock with solo popo right?

 

[iRobinhoood]

Kongo Jungle on singles? Isn't that banned for that exact reason? Lol

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Need advice for this match: me losing to falco

First game I got wrecked, second game I also got wrecked but managed to make a lucky comeback, and third game is a campfest on kongo jungle.

This is against a falco player I beat a few weeks ago. I think he was playing much better this time because he didn't get frustrated against me. I felt like I was playing better in some ways, but also worse--I might have changed too many of my good habits. I felt like my movement could've been tighter, and I overextended too often.

Anyways, what's a good zoning strategy against falco? I can't really hold the other side of the stage because this falco player is happy to just shoot lasers and run away.

Also, I know the theory for getting around lasers but it doesn't work too well because whenever he sees me move forward he runs away. I know that if he runs away I should be able to catch him with u-airs and turn it into an advantage, but it seems like in that situation he just manages to land more stray hits and his hits lead into way more damage than mine.

The thing that stood out to me the most in the first game is that you get punished a lot worse when Falco gets stray hits than you should. I think this is mostly bad DI on your part; you DI into a lot of things when you should be trying to get away. A kind of random comment that feels somewhat relevant here is that you could protect Nana better; one of the things Stab told me about you is that you don't protect Nana very well, so you might want to glance over what you could have done differently in that regard. This is mostly an afterthought and I might watch the game again later to give more specific advice.

Something I really should have pointed out the last time you posted a set against MattDotZeb is that ice blocks are really good for creating openings against that sort of laser camping. Even if he just shields them, it gives you a moment to get closer to him. You have a habit of trying to just rush in and force sh blizzard openings when they're not really applicable. Another thing I noticed a lot in the second game is that you need to pay more attention to how Matt reacts to you when you do get kind of close to him. He really doesn't mix up what he does very much, and if you had noted earlier that he always likes to full hop forward when you get close to him when he's camping the sides, you could have punished him really badly with a good uair. This might sound obvious, but also keep in mind that when you're trying to land such a uair, it's good to aim for where he's going to be instead of where he is; there were some times when you would jump forward with a uair, but he would just pass over it since you spaced it too deeply. The sort of laser camping he does in the second game really isn't very good against ICs. Lasers do miniscule damage, and if you realize how he likes to act when you get close to him, you can punish him very badly.

The way you deal with platform camping on Kongo is a little odd. What you did was fine at first; jumping up below him with uair is pretty safe, so there isn't much harm to it. However, you really should keep track of what he does in response to this. You kept trying more or less the same thing and he kept dodging it the same way. If this was just because you didn't see an alternative, then I can't fault you, but here's one pretty simple way of tackling this for next time (assuming you don't ban this stage again; just taking this stage off is a fine way of dealing with it, too). Try to hit Matt as he lands, not when he's just standing there. Jump up at him from below, but unless you really think it'll hit, don't uair right away. He'll probably jump, because that's what he's been doing the whole time. Try to keep track of where he tries to go depending on how you approach, you should be able to trick him so that you end up below him (still drifting around after your full jump) and then DJ uair him as he lands. This kind of strategy can take a while, but it really should favor you; Falco gets very little from platform camping unless you leave big holes open when you try to respond to him, whereas one stray uair on your part can lead to a lot.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Thanks a lot for the response Fly.

A kind of random comment that feels somewhat relevant here is that you could protect Nana better; one of the things Stab told me about you is that you don't protect Nana very well, so you might want to glance over what you could have done differently in that regard.

I wish I could say I was training my solo Ice Climber, but I really don't know why my Nana dies so quickly. She always somehow ends up by the ledge when we get separated, and it's hard to save her from that position. I guess there were a few times I might've been able to blizzard (instead of whiffing a wd f-smash). Sometimes against Falco and Sheik I like to use Nana as bait so that I can dd grab, but that's probably not what you're talking about.

Another thing I noticed a lot in the second game is that you need to pay more attention to how Matt reacts to you when you do get kind of close to him.

Noted. I didn't really notice how little damage I was taking from the lasers themselves, so I got kind of flustered and relied on my instincts, instead of using those first interchanges to pick up on his habits. Whenever I watch your matches and see you go for a fulljump u-air right in front of someone, I think, "Wow, I definitely would have sh u-aired under the platform in that situation." I guess I need to step back and play chess rather than always going for the immediately obvious 'safe' option.

The way you deal with platform camping on Kongo is a little odd. What you did was fine at first; jumping up below him with uair is pretty safe, so there isn't much harm to it. However, you really should keep track of what he does in response to this.

Hmm, you're definitely right about this. I think what was going through my head was that as long as I u-aired on way down, he wouldn't be able to punish me, and I could gradually rack up damage without taking any risks. I kept doing it because I felt like it was working, but I wasn't familiar with the stage topography so occasionally I would mess up (and accidentally land on the platform or something) and get punished big for it. At one point I did just jump and wait, and it gave me a really nice opportunity, but I squandered it (u-aired into his shield when I should have wavelanded onto the platform and grabbed). Anyways, next time I'll just follow your advice and I don't think I could lose to that strategy again.

 

[MattDotZeb]

Another thing I noticed a lot in the second game is that you need to pay more attention to how Matt reacts to you when you do get kind of close to him. He really doesn't mix up what he does very much, and if you had noted earlier that he always likes to full hop forward when you get close to him when he's camping the sides, you could have punished him really badly with a good uair.

The sort of laser camping he does in the second game really isn't very good against ICs. Lasers do miniscule damage, and if you realize how he likes to act when you get close to him, you can punish him very badly.

Good to know.
It's weird though, nobody punishes my full jumps consistently well. =|

Anyways, next time I'll just follow your advice and I don't think I could lose to that strategy again.

We shall see.

 

[choknater]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM67npJ3L7g&feature=plcp

hey guys help me out :D

i made a lot of errors, but if there's some general stuff you noticed just let me know.

tafokints noted that it's easy to bait jumps from me, so i should watch out for that and make my jumps safer.

 

[knightpraetor]

so i have a few questions. are there rules for whether nana can do a smash on stage while rolling from the ledge? I think it seems to be that I can queue the dsmash while standing on but miss it while rolling...or maybe there are only certain frames when you can queue/input a command to nana while standing on/rolling from the ledge?

other than that I was just curious what you think optimal edgeguarding is vs sheik with ICs? I mostly went off and took bair if they were far out..but it had the weakness that i can't fake the bair and hog the ledge when nana is still alive cause she will suicide..though i'm thinking maybe the solution tot hat is to learn the up b recovery where nana goes over while you grab the ledge..i'll practice that some.

the other thing I did was hog ledge with popo into stand on dsmash..which i assume is fine..but if anyone has more tips vs sheik i would appreciate it...one thing i realized while playing is that if the sheik is decent it's not always an option to wd under the jumps into upsmash..sometimes i think you need to just take the wd under uptilt cause you don't have time..but i feel like with enough practice i will figure out where each is possible...sh under jumps into upair is godlike...grabbing sheik seems rather hard..i'm guessing i have to just bait a tilt and then grab that as they tend to spam fair into ftilt to guard if you come in.

another thing i've learned in the last few days while playing ICs is that IC's fsmash is not nearly as godlike as it seems..quite a few things punch through it when people are coming down from above. I used to think ICs could just smash no matter what on opponents coming down but now i'm starting to think I need to work on grabbing the opponents aerials or making sure i'm facing backwards when they come down so i have the option of bair or fsmash.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Well, you can't control Nana from the ledge. And when you roll from the ledge, the game still 'thinks' that you're on the ledge until the rolling animation is over. I don't believe you can control Nana until you're completely on the stage (i.e. the rolling animation is over). The standing animation is much shorter, so you can input commands for Nana sooner, or even buffer them while Popo is standing up.

If Sheik can't make it back to the ledge with her second jump, you should take the ledge and force her onto the stage. Unless she's really close, you can stand up at the last second before she reappears to cover most of her options--if she goes for the ledge she'll fall, and if she goes for the stage you have plenty of time to punish her. When she lands on the stage, grab -> handoff if possible.

If you grab the ledge when she's close to the stage, standing up won't always work because she can hit you with the vanishing hitbox. In this situation I usually roll, but I think a quick ledgehop n-air might be better.

Grabbing Sheik is really easy if she tries to play on the ground. You can cc or shield grab all of her tilts, shield grab dash attack, wd oos grab her d-smash, etc. It's harder to grab her if she likes to run around on the platforms, but you still have a big advantage in my opinion. You can wait under the other platform (so her needles don't hit you), use blizzard (a LOT), and try to bait her into falling with an aerial so you can grab her.

Edit: Try to count the number of times I said grab in that paragraph...

-------

Chok: Something Wobbles used to advocate for the ICs vs. Falcon match-up is to always face away when you approach him. There were a bunch of times you wavedashed at him while you were facing towards him and he was just kinda chilling in a neutral position. Your wd u-tilts were amazing (now I feel inspired to try it more) but sometimes you would d-smash facing towards him which is pretty risky.

This is kind of a broad statement to make, but I think you need to be really... careful in this match-up. For me, that means trying not to commit, spacing with safe aerials, and wavedashing away a lot. Stray hits from either side can lead to enormous damage, so if you can manage to not get hit for a while, you're probably winning. I guess if you like to approach with wd u-tilts and d-smash and stuff, go for it, but maybe limit it to when you really feel like you have him cornered (and try facing the other way when you do).

- At 1:50, you double jumped too soon. It would've been fine if he was on the ledge or something, but since he was on the stage it cost you a stock. You probably saw it too, but if you waited longer you could've grabbed the ledge, or if you had squalled immediately after the jump you would've made it back to the middle of the stage.

- 2:06 = missed handoff opportunity

- 6:34... you should probably wear a tin foil helmet when you play against someone so proficient at mind control.

Also, you may know this already, but you can d-throw cg Falcon at pretty much any percent. I'm pretty sure he can jump out of u-throw -> dash attack at anything over 0%, so you can either u-throw -> run and u-air to catch his jump, or d-throw cg, which is definitely worth practicing imo (gets you some extra damage or helps you stall until Nana wakes up).

Anyways, I really like your ICs, and I feel like a lot of IC players are on the rise. It's only a matter of time before ICs become a force to be reckoned with.

 

[knightpraetor]

first off, why is it dangerous to wd forward dsmash instead of facing backwards while doing it? is backwards better somehow?

and can you elaborate on what blizzard is supposed to be doing or what you use it to block..i have yet to use blizzard much..you can desynch into single blizzard which i like..but the setup seems kind of long..is blizzarding with both char solid? i have yet to try it.

also, everyone says you can cg no matter what on sheik..but for me i can't seem to follow away DI without anticipating it in advance and dashing...in which case it seems like i would have to dashdance grab in place..but that's probably just me being bad..haven't yet put enough time into ice climbers so i may be wasting a frame or just reading sheik's DI too slowly..

 

[Kyu Puff]

The back hitbox comes out on frame 6; the front hitbox doesn't come out until frame 9. The front hitbox isn't bad or anything, but the extra speed can make a difference sometimes. If you're facing forward, and you press back on the control stick while you d-smash, Popo will turn around and d-smash, but Nana will still face forward. This is a pretty cool trick because it essentially makes the hitbox in front of you last 3 frames longer than it normally would.

Synched aerial blizzard can work, but it has high risk (if you miss) and little reward. Sometimes you can use blizzard with solo Popo just to rack up damage, but generally when you have Nana, you only want her to blizzard.

Roll -> blizzard is kind of slow and telegraphed, but you have some other options too. Dash dance -> blizzard is really fast and less predictable. Belay out of shield is also pretty fast, and it makes Nana jump so you can get a quick aerial blizzard.

An example of when you could use blizzard against Sheik: she is camping the far platform, and whenever you get close she drops down and slaps you. Instead of trying to space around the f-air and punish (which is pretty difficult), you can run toward her, wavedash backwards and dd -> blizzard. If she tries to f-air, you beat it with blizzard, which occasionally leads to a free grab.

Another example: every time you try to approach, Sheik reacts with a sh f-air or wd back f-tilt. Instead of playing a high risk guessing game, you can dd blizzard, which forces her to do something else and creates an opening for you.

The d-throw chaingrab on Sheik is completely reaction based. You actually have a pretty big window to follow her DI; try practicing it with a friend (not sure if there are any computers that actively mix up their DI on d-throw).


Sorry if my explanations aren't clear enough. I keep making these posts late at night, so what makes sense to me might not make sense to other people...

 

[choknater]

thanks kyu puff for the tips. after watching chudat's zenith sets, i realized that i should really pick and choose my approaches. i'm still not used to playing these high level norcal players often (on the level of zac, shroomed, SS, lucien etc) and i keep getting baited into stuff. lesser players don't do it to me. so it's a good tip to be cautious. i will try harder

my best set at that tournament was me getting my vengeance against Bob$ who defeated me at the previous one haha. all sets after that, i was tired and playing at what felt like 70~80%, which i felt during this set with SS. i can do better! i hope i can keep my stamina up next time.

playing against that guy just makes me feel relaxed for some reason. i can't let it get to me hahahaa. it's weird. other high level players make me feel nervous... but playing SS makes me feel too relaxed.

 

[kd-]

Speaking of downsmash, sometimes as an approach I'll wavedash in with a downsmash if I think I can catch my opponent in their dashdance and/or I've pressured them enough so that they whiff a move or they've lose stage control. The problem, especially with Falcons, is that my opponent always seems to SHFFL over the hammer and aerial me (stomp -> knee, Falco pillar, etc.). What do you guys think of wd in fsmash? I've tried it and met success with it, but since it has costly laggy flaws should I just choose a better option? Most of the time my desyncs have the problems of being telegraphed and slow, as noted above, and I like to approach/attack/pressure. Maybe a wd in to pivot Nana fsmash desync (the one where Popo pivot dashes) would work better?

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM67npJ3L7g&feature=plcp

hey guys help me out :D

i made a lot of errors, but if there's some general stuff you noticed just let me know.

tafokints noted that it's easy to bait jumps from me, so i should watch out for that and make my jumps safer.

sh airials are good if ur right on top of him, nairs/bairs pwn

 

[choknater]

dang lol

i think in that first game, that missed nana save is where i got demoralized. couldn't keep my head in the game after that.

i totally could've beaten ss lol

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

dang lol

i think in that first game, that missed nana save is where i got demoralized. couldn't keep my head in the game after that.

i totally could've beaten ss lol

totally, SS looked lost in fighting against the babies

 

[knightpraetor]

thanks for the help

 

[Kyu Puff]

does anyone know the young link match-up?

 

[Zanx8]

How do you play vs a platform camping Jigglypuff?

 

[Nintendude]

I've actually had to deal with that strategy a couple times in tournaments. Just poke with safe up airs and don't overextend yourself at all. Make sure you stay in control of the middle of the stage and pay attention to where Jiggs is landing and when she has to land. Eventually Jiggs will slip up and get hit by something and she'll be forced to approach.

 

[choknater]

does anyone know the young link match-up?

yes actually. just really try hard not to get hit by stray projectiles. they are all heavily telegraphed, so the idea is to avoid them as much as possible. it's kinda like dealing with samus on pokemon stadium. you know she is gonna go for missiles, so you gotta force yourself to know the angles and timings of approach.

ylink is strongest with a bomb, and his best way to pull one is by full jumping. use this opportunity to close in and get underneath, but be weary if he z-drops or throws the bomb downwards. when i play young link, i always hit people with bombs by jumping, pulling a bomb, then double jumping and throwing it down.

you could also just jump from beneath and uair when he tries to run away and pull a bomb, if you get that type of positioning.

bomb ground pulls are bad, but ylink will sometimes do it just to have a bomb in hand

when you shield a bomb, it bounces on your shield, so he can't approach anymore and has to run away some more. you can block, let the bomb bounce, then wd either back or toward him. beating young link is just a matter of forcing your way close to him and hitting him really hard. he can't really convert to kills well at all unless he gets perfect bomb dairs like armada or something, which is pretty hard to do.

just take your time, but go in hard when the opportunity is there

it is my belief that young link can really combat any character, no matter their tier, as long as he has a bomb in hand. if you can prevent that from happening, you will win

How do you play vs a platform camping Jigglypuff?

establish the lead first and make her come to you

I've actually had to deal with that strategy a couple times in tournaments. Just poke with safe up airs and don't overextend yourself at all. Make sure you stay in control of the middle of the stage and pay attention to where Jiggs is landing and when she has to land. Eventually Jiggs will slip up and get hit by something and she'll be forced to approach.

if you don't get the lead, then yes nintendude is right. make sure you know how to punish her fadeaway bairs, cuz that's when you might get most opportunities. i like when puffs stay too close to the ground and do not respect the range of wd dsmash or fsmash

 

[Zanx8]

Okay, thanks.