Social General Ice Climber Chat

[Fly_Amanita]

I noticed you did this to me a few times in our sets. New technology?

What I did against you was Popo dthrow when facing away from the edge -> Nana grab -> automatic Nana bthrow -> Popo grab, which is something I've been doing for years.

What I did in that video is Popo bthrow -> Nana dash grab -> automatic Nana fthrow -> Popo grab, which is something completely different. I've also never been able to get anything like this to work on Falco, but maybe I'm just not executing well enough, or maybe I need to tweak things a bit.

It looks like it could work with knowledge of where nana will throw based on distance from platform edge, combined with random prayer DI reads/luck.

The one time when I can see it actually working is when the opponent is DIing away when Popo has the grab in an attempt to avoid a follow-up; in this case, bthrow will pop them up for a direct follow-up. If anything, Falcon probably wouldn't go far enough for Nana to fthrow towards the other side of the platform, and she'd just bthrow back to you; the Falcon would probably be confused and have no idea where he should be DIing at this point, and if he doesn't DI towards you, then you could just grab again with Popo. If he does DI towards you, you could run to the lower platform and do something there.

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

What I did against you was Popo dthrow when facing away from the edge -> Nana grab -> automatic Nana bthrow -> Popo grab, which is something I've been doing for years.

What I did in that video is Popo bthrow -> Nana dash grab -> automatic Nana fthrow -> Popo grab, which is something completely different. I've also never been able to get anything like this to work on Falco, but maybe I'm just not executing well enough, or maybe I need to tweak things a bit.

................................................ FINE

I swear you got a popo bthrow -> nana grab but I guess I was wrong. Panic makes you see things unclearly =(

 

[choknater]

alright regarding my old post on things that i wanted to try (wavelanding more and synced squall)

fly was right about wavelanding. it's not too amazing except for fun surprise gambles.

synced squall at the right times is amazing though like wth. it's best when people think they can get too comfortable in that diagonal position.

other stuff ima try to implement that i've thought of before but haven't done enough

- sh uair in neutral game and out of shield
- approaching from desyncs. like when it is prudent to nanapult and when it isn't. when to ice block chase and when not to. etc

cuz i find that i've been playing much more defensively lately, but there are still ways to convert that defense into offense and i don't wanna get stuck. approaching is not as simple as wavedashing forward these days. people try to cover that, but i'll find some things they haven't thought of

 

[Avalancer]

Why is the IC - Fox matchup 40:60? I love playing against foxes, and they're pretty easy to beat.

 

[knightpraetor]

what percents does popo chaingrab sheik on DI away/down and away.? I assume it's the same for dthrow dsmash regrab...but honestly I seem to miss it when i'm Sopo more.

Also, is it just me or is dthrow dsmash regrab kind of bad at low percents because when they DI away you dash grab and nana takes a while to catch up? is it better to do an iteration of dthrow dair until they get to higher percent...it just seems like you need to wait before being able to dthrow dsmash again and they could break out in that time

(Freaking hell...am i really asking these scrub questions.......lol so this is what picking up a new character does to you)

 

[PEEF!]

what percents does popo chaingrab sheik on DI away/down and away.? I assume it's the same for dthrow dsmash regrab...but honestly I seem to miss it when i'm Sopo more.

Also, is it just me or is dthrow dsmash regrab kind of bad at low percents because when they DI away you dash grab and nana takes a while to catch up? is it better to do an iteration of dthrow dair until they get to higher percent...it just seems like you need to wait before being able to dthrow dsmash again and they could break out in that time

(Freaking hell...am i really asking these scrub questions.......lol so this is what picking up a new character does to you)

The dsmash doesn't make it easier, it works to about 70-80 either way.

Nana might take too long to catch up. Try using dthrow>dtilt or just throwing in a dthrow without a dsmash to give nana more time.

 

[knightpraetor]

ok thanks a lot

 

[Smasher89]

Be aware that after those 80% you can wavedash after and hit them before they can tech on the ground. For example dthrow>wavedash>dsmash. They might be able to DI away and jump out of that, but if you can predict that you can uair or possibly other air attack them.
Would be interesting if dthrow can be linked with wavedash fsmash on jumps though since fsmash often can beat jumps. Not sure if it does though.

 

[ant-d]

what percents does popo chaingrab sheik on DI away/down and away.?

Popo can down-throw chaingrab Sheik from 0% until 135% (w/ DI down+away)

 

[knightpraetor]

The dsmash doesn't make it easier, it works to about 70-80 either way.

Nana might take too long to catch up. Try using dthrow>dtilt or just throwing in a dthrow without a dsmash to give nana more time.

so basically if dthrow dsmash doesn't work past 80, then you're saying chaingrab till 80 with dthrow dsmash, dthrow dair a couple iterations then fsmash them offstage?

but then antd seems to be disagreeing with you since he says you can do it to 135( or are saying that after 80 the dsmash becomes too strong so you can't chaingrab + dsmash, just chaingrab normally).

and why can't i hit this stupid dthrow timing..i'm so bad

 

[Strong Badam]

Popo can down-throw chaingrab Sheik from 0% until 135% (w/ DI down+away)

It becomes shorter when the sheik doesn't DI. Also depends on port I assume, by a % or two.

 

[PEEF!]

Knightpretor, the DI cannot be reacted to at that point. I'm not sure why he posted and didn't make that clear, because it seemed that he was claiming you can dthrow>regrab up to that percent, but you would have to guess DI away and down when DI away and down was the only DI that you could continue the chaingrab with. Just unrealistic to do past 80.

 

[ant-d]

but then antd seems to be disagreeing with you since he says you can do it to 135

The DI that you specified in your original question helps Popo's chaingrab.

 

[choknater]

Why is the IC - Fox matchup 40:60? I love playing against foxes, and they're pretty easy to beat.

in short, he is very fast and shine is really strong in the matchup. he controls the pace. he just has to know exactly what to do

i'm finding more solid techniques against him tho

 

[Grim Tuesday]

ICs vs. Fox is either Fox's favour or even depending on the players really. Such a dynamic match-up.

I agree with you Chok, synced Squall is REALLY good.

Also I am back.

Hi.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Why is the IC - Fox matchup 40:60? I love playing against foxes, and they're pretty easy to beat.

I hope you never have to fight Chillin or Lovage

 

[Binx]

Fox can go both ways really hard, I find that good foxes are basically impossible you have to just make a guess and throw out the right move sometimes.

Worse foxes are mad easy cause they miss l cancels.

 

[DerfMidWest]

so I started using ICs, and I'm just have a few questions:
how should I use nanapult in play?
when is it good to dash attack? I find myself using it a lot, and I see other ICs use it a lot, when are there better options?
also, what is the ICs best approach? I use dsmash and jab/ftilt a lot. and grabs. are there others?

 

[knightpraetor]

I hope you never have to fight Chillin or Lovage

lol, hilarious. I agree. chillin kind of wrecks ICs....

the matchup would be a lot more even if someone modded the game to decrease invuln on respawn (another one of the design decisions that I question)

 

[Smasher89]

I use dashattack too much, shouldnt even use it since close to everytime it gets spotdodged. Regarding chillin, watch Chu vs him on how to beat him.
Played with a extreemly good controller today at school, not just that both direction jabcancel worked, the L and R was clicking and so was Z (loud even), didnt look official since it had no nintendologo but it was so precise that I easily could WD inte dddesynch easily.

There is no best approach, they are good to pressure with in different situations. Bair for example is good at pressuring the ledge, since if they roll you can dsmash on reaction since it kinda has no lag.

Catching a opponent offguard with Fsmash can lead to early kills if you time it to catch DJs and dsmash is just scary and leads to guessingames with the opponents shield.

 

[Avalancer]

Why is the IC vs Peach matchup so bad for IC? I know it's bad, but I can't find a reason why

 

[DerfMidWest]

holy balls my ICs suck against actual players <_<
I spent all day yesterday playing them and getting the hang of desync, but then when i play actual people, I can't control nana at all...
how i fix this?
and how do i keep myself from getting separated?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Why is the IC vs Peach matchup so bad for IC? I know it's bad, but I can't find a reason why

Because Peach occupies an area of space that ICs have trouble interacting with

Because Peach's FC aerials are extremely good against their very slanted shield game

Because Peach is great at splitting them up with heavy moves, moves with different trajectories, or down smash

Because Peach is probably the most efficient Nana killer in the game for the highest safety & very low commitment (FC aerial chain into offstage fair)

Etc, etc.



Aesir - Better defense. Make sure you true CC those hits, shield others, work well out of shield, etc. Don't get hit.

 

[the_irish_dude]

holy balls my ICs suck against actual players <_<
I spent all day yesterday playing them and getting the hang of desync, but then when i play actual people, I can't control nana at all...
how i fix this?
and how do i keep myself from getting separated?

Play like a god.
Use sweat repellent on your hands.
Press the right button combinations for proper desync, nana control.

Or just do what everyone else says >.> I personally think my way is better.

 

[Smasher89]

Recorded some stuff I´ve mentioned here on the boards with my 3DS, and other things that can be some interesting options for pressure: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQWk_mPFxUQ&feature=bf_prev&list=UUJj1KPp0YqjyS1bS3oWHtcQ
Didnt see any way to edit the last 3 vids which this post is about but there is some maybe useful stuff in there.
Like something I recorded just with luck, dthrow>backair>unescapable to upsmash. If it isnt % specefic it could be useful for messing with DI, especially since people likes to smashDI stuff nowadays.
Jabdesynch is another and just pivotdashattack for moving fsmash is nice probably very good to pressure in the exact situation choknater describes as "iCs cant do anything about"

 

[choknater]

hehe interesting stuff

i was never any good at doing pivot moves though

i've been experimenting a little bit with synced and desynced squall approaches too

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Desynced squall?

...I dunno man...

 

[Smasher89]

Its semifast(from jab), and if it hits, Nana can dsmash, popo still hitting making it have no knockback and dsmash again. It´s a wierd mixup where you have more control over Nana then you usually do control her(since popo is dancing).

I realized the spacing is probably further from the opponent then I first thought with the dashattackdesynch.

 

[knightpraetor]

pretty sure historically chu won less than 10% of the sets he played with chillin. But I suppose if you search hard enough you will find a set somewhere..i know i watched a few sets in person and they weren't pretty..

but maybe chu will come tell me i'm wrong and that he really went 50/50

 

[choknater]

watching chu vs sfat was good for me. sfat destroyed me in our last set, but his set with chu was close and chu showed me some things i can do better

 

[Engo]

I'm interested in learning icies. I've been trying them out on my own at home and I'm going to try them out in friendlies at a tourney tomorrow.

KK teach me some stuff at the tourney if there's time?

 

[kd-]

Hey guys, new to IC's here coming from Fox and while this isn't exactly quality stuff, I'm looking for advice in any way possible - I was a little flustered with that skin plus the crew hype, but this game and the next was what I played:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfHm3RX4_q8&t=26m9s

I don't have much of a neutral game, or an overall game, and that playing Falcon makes me shake my head. Let me know if you have any and all advice, thanks :]

 

[KirbyKaze]

KK teach me some stuff at the tourney if there's time?

Fly's guide is pretty good.

 

[choknater]

reading guides is great! try to internalize as much as you can and apply them. besides that, though, one can only really get better with grinding matches with good people. gotta learn so many specific spacings and situations with ic's, as they are one of the most complex characters.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Hey, I went to a tournament last weekend and placed decently (7th/50 people), and some of my matches got recorded. Since it's summer and I have free time, I wanna start playing seriously again. I was wondering if I could get some critique on my ICs. Here are the two matches I lost:

vs. Fox

In this match, I felt like he was in control the entire time. I just kept whiffing b-airs while he chipped away with safe aerials and shines. I committed to a lot of things that didn't make sense, and probably missed easy openings because I was too busy throwing out moves. I also fell for certain things over and over again (he tried to u-smash me every time I recovered to the middle of the stage, and b-aired me every time I wavelanded onto the stage from the ledge).

vs. Fox

In this match I didn't feel as pressured, and I lost less stocks to shine, but I didn't capitalize hard enough on the openings I found.

Here are some matches I won:

vs. Sheik
vs. Falco

 

[Smasher89]

arolund 07.30, be sure to get the upsmash to hit above the platform, by moving a tiny bit toward the middle to make the upsmash better placed.(in the first vs fox match on ys)

 

[choknater]

for the match vs moose, pay attention to what you're doing each time you get shined. moose was playing aggressively and was able to stay in your face each time you got shined. i also saw that you just tried to wavedash forward immediately as you got shined in game 1. you stopped doing it later, which is good, just be weary of that. wavedashing forward just puts yourself back in position to be pressured.

your bairs and uairs were pretty okay but you weren't really forcing him into it. he scouted them and found different angles of approach.

game 2 was good because you were able to convert some stray hits into kills. foxes usually become weary of that and adjust their spacings, but you gotta try to keep yourself at ranges that scare him and use other kinds of safe moves. you had some great utilts, so maybe try implementing ftilts as well.

fox is very much able to set the pace in the matchup, so it's up to us to force him to make mistakes. if we just play to protect ourselves, he'll eventually find a way in. protect yourself, but in ways that threaten him back with the ability to kill him off a stray hit. basically make sure each move counts for the situation and isn't chosen blindly, especially when he is in your face and shining u.

the way i think about this game is very conceptual so sry if i can't really provide specific situational tips on what to do haha. i kinda know them subconsciously...

oh yeah, i like to sh fair to defend myself sometimes. it's decent. ice blocks can be good too, depending on where the fox is choosing to go. moose seemed very platform oriented though. i learned from fly that if they are going on platforms, you can kinda go to the other side and they won't have a good angle of approach. for example, if they are on the left platform, go to the right/middle-ish on the floor. this was a tip for marth, but i think it can apply to other characters who try to platform camp, especially if they are avoiding your uairs. perhaps positioning better can make things easier too

 

[knightpraetor]

hate to bother people with tech skill questions again, but I was wondering for the reverse sh dair for chaingrabbing falcon. can they get out of it if you use the full hop? I was doing that but someone broke out, so i was trying to learn to reverse the sh dair with the short hop but i'm having horrible consistency. I can't even figure out what i'm doing wrong, but I just wanted to make sure that i need to learn this.

as for what i'm doing wrong i assume i am either doing the dair early or sometimes hitting with the wrong side. i assume that the correct me to reverse sh dair chaingrab is dthrow, wait, sh forward with nana dair at the last second before she hits the ground, turn around grab.

 

[Binx]

They can smash DI out of it, it's just really hard

 

[knightpraetor]

wait you didn't clarify..is full hop better or worse than the sh is there any difference?