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Social General Ice Climber Chat

Smasher89

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 4, 2005
Messages
1,936
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Sweden
i actually have a perfect record of falco vs ganon, and i lose all my sets where i go ic's vs ganon! hopefully i can keep that trend going
Had some trouble as IC vs Ganon until I realised it usually was because I didnt think about the matchup on certain stages at all, when I started to use counterpicks smarter it went easier and has given me atleast one win(not attended too many tournaments recently due to school). But sticking to Falco sounds like a smart choice if it has worked really good earlier.
 

choknater

Smash Obsessed
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choknater
hehe yeah. i've tried, but i've just noticed through my experience that i should stick with what i'm more comfortable with. and you're talking about PAL ganon too, yeah?
 

Smasher89

Smash Lord
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Nov 4, 2005
Messages
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True that it´s PAL ganon. iceblock under PS platform is hard for Ganon to reach no matter the version though.
 

choknater

Smash Obsessed
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choknater
i want to share some of the things i learned this past weekend. i give a special shoutout to bizzarro flame for being a key player in some of my discoveries.

i lost again to bizzarro flame, and after being really salty for a little while, i finally learned a few things that will help me get better.

i had a conversation with him after the tournament about his history with ic's. while i do concede now that ic's vs ganon is a difficult matchup (note: difficult, not "bad"), i decided i'll never cop out to another character just to beat ganon or peach. it no longer works for me since i no longer have a copy of the game nor the time to extensively practice other characters against people. the notion of a "main" really matters because of these constraints.

he told me he's beaten all the top ic's except for chudat, who he's never played. he beat wobbles 2-0, fly 2-1, and now me 3-1. my friend and i also noticed that many of his techniques with ganondorf are exclusive to him. he has come up with so many options that have become such a natural part of his gameplay that they're not just flashy but also really intuitive.

some examples: in his set with me (i played falco and fox for a couple games), he attempted several combos that included a fast falled first hit of ganon's nair into a full hop fair. it only works against inward and up DI, or "good" DI at around 80% into a guaranteed finisher. in matchups that i would consider hard for ganon, he is able to control his zone so well that the character has to respect his space, and from there he comes up with the craziest mixups into offense. for example, he will sometimes double jump near you but facing away from you, and you think that he'll bair you so you do the safest thing which is shield. in this situation he might just bair you which is safe for him anyway, OR he will do a perfect waveland behind you and try to grab. i also noticed that when i was a spacie, there were zero legitimate escape options out of down throw because he could react to either side with a jab. he was able to overcome any idea i had that falco and fox were advantageous against ganon because he had put much more time into the matchup than me.

tl;dr a true master of his character must push the limits of his character first before anything. before making any prejudgments on matchups. until he masters the character, he won't KNOW what the top level matchups are like. he must innovate to overcome barriers and he has to believe that all barriers can be possibly overcome.

even though i lost, i regained hope that the peach and ganon matchups can be won. but before i focus on those matchups in particular, i want to master some options of ic's that i never considered. here are some things i want to try to implement more often, so that i can increase my options:

1. synced squall. i noticed that i can do it against people who are standing, blocking, or jumping, and take advantage of the lack of lag after. i'm going to try this as often as possible so i can find out where it's a good option and where it can be punished.

2. wavelanding as a possibility after every jump. this is something really interesting i learned from bizzarro flame. he increased ganon's few options into many options because i had to watch out for the waveland at EVERY jump. i couldn't just think that he would land in place every time he jumped because when i did, i sometimes got surprised by a waveland jab or waveland grab.

as of right now, i consider this one of the only TRULY UNPREDICTABLE surprise tactics for ice climbers because their waveland is so fast. the more i test out short hop waveland dsmash/fsmash, the more it surprises me that nobody looks out for it, even though they are always looking for the normal wavedash.

of course, eventually people will begin to foresee both of these things, but exploring options is the only way to increase a character's potential. i've done it before and losing to bizz has reignited my passion for inventiveness, which is indeed the only reason i chose ic's as a main in the first place.

apart from these two things, i also made many execution errors and also went for predictable and escapable grab options. i think i need to relearn wobbling and practice the hand-off more when i get the time, lol. in the one match that i actually took from him, i thought to myself, "so it is possible!"

the ganon matchup is incredibly scary, but at least now i know how i can get better. maybe one day he will begin to fear me!
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
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Aug 24, 2007
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Claremont, CA
I think SH waveland with ICs is mostly a gimmick, but it probably works on most people (it's worked on me before; it won't again). ICs' aerial game isn't as threatening as Ganon's and I'd imagine that if you see ICs landing after a SH, at least from a distance, you could just throw something safe out to cover that option, and nothing else they could do would deal with it. I am making some assumptions here, though:

I only considered SH there, mostly since we already frequently waveland after a descent otherwise, which is definitely fine and has plenty of applications. I assumed the opponent was outside of the range of ICs' aerials after the short hop, so you might be able to do some tomahawk-esque stuff when closer, since the opponent will probably be tempted to shield here. Lastly, some characters probably don't have a great response to SH waveland. Every good to decent character I can think of has an answer, though.
 

HoChiMinhTrail

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 1, 2004
Messages
4,731
Location
Michigan State/Chicago, Il
I do mathematics.
i counter mathematics wit swag. get your *** to FC so I can pwn ur *** in this game. $20 mm ic ditto. Or we can battle our secondaries, i play dat armor.

btw this goes for all you ****ing scrubs that think you know how to use this character, bring ur money up to me, slap me in the face wit it and ill know what u want.
 

Vts

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 10, 2007
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Loser's Semis vs ihavespaceballs
i counter mathematics wit swag. get your *** to FC so I can pwn ur *** in this game. $20 mm ic ditto. Or we can battle our secondaries, i play dat armor.

btw this goes for all you ****ing scrubs that think you know how to use this character, bring ur money up to me, slap me in the face wit it and ill know what u want.
I named my **** money, so be ready for a mushroom print on your face!

ahem, sounds good maybe we can get a group IC picture of everyone!!! and anyone no there will photoshop in lol
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
5,201
I'm going to start a podcast where we get on skype and analyze matches together discuss options and punishments and try to raise our overall game.

Probably want 4 maybe 5 people, Fly has given me his info but he is the only one so far.
smulesky is mine I'm obviously down for this stuff =]
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
still nothing, so i'm going to write a bit more. I had a break between work and went and tried some more IC stuff, but whenever I wavedashed to the ledge I kept watching nana die. I would try to DI back, but i'm guessing maybe i can't take the ledge unless i have time to desynch first? It really seems like she just suicides when she jumps off on her own instead of jumping back on stage like you'd expect.
 

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
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Adelaide, South Australia, AUS
1. It is not necessary to desync.
2. Short hop.
3. If you are edge-guarding the exact same way every time, you are doing something wrong. Mess around with having one Climber on the ledge while the other charges a Smash, dash-dance blizzard, spot dodge charged smash, etc...
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
so grim, are you saying that I can either desynch into wavedash or sh if i have time?

cause short hopping and desynching both take significant time compared to wavedashing*..which rather weakens ICs edgeguarding I would think..though I'm used to marth so I'm spoiled
 
Joined
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3DS FC
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I'm sayin you shouldn't let it play into your strategy. If u wanna waveland but are afraid to then just work your wl into your game where it will be effective. Therefore it won't be a weakness.

:phone:
 

john!

Smash Hero
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Nov 19, 2006
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The Garden of Earthly Delights
oh i see. i think he was referring to character weakness, not personal weakness.

edit: i just had a revelation regarding why several space animals players i know hate it when i talk about peach's weaknesses. space animal players are not used to having "character weaknesses" that limit their gameplay. their characters have virtually unlimited potential, and almost all weaknesses in their gameplay derive from their own personal weaknesses. therefore it is hard for them to understand the idea of "character weaknesses" holding a person back.
 
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I feel the wobbling rule is unnecessary. It can be really hard to grab someone at times. Also when I'm playing I Dnt even thing of wobbling, I'm thinking of all the other chain moves I have under my belt.
You have to setup for a grab just like you have to set up for any other move that kills such as the knee, the toe, the ***** slap across the face...

:phone:
 

choknater

Smash Obsessed
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choknater
whew

i got 5th today, lost to lucien in pools 1-2 to get 2nd seed

then in bracket i lost to bob$'s marth 0-2, then sfat 0-2. bob$ was close games but sfat dominated. that guy is so good....

i feel like if i want to beat higher level foxes, i really need to grind in that matchup and get a lot more experience.
 

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
13,444
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Adelaide, South Australia, AUS
So I've constructed an Ice Climbers-controller out of spare parts and I'm going to be repping the duo in Australia again.

I need someone to explain this to me though; I've heard that ICs can adjust their shield sizes so as to mess with people's l-cancel timing.

Only things I can do with ICs shield are:
Both Big Shield
Both Small Shield
One Small, One Big

Obviously the first two won't be anything new, and the last one doesn't seem useful... One IC will get pushed away from the other and the smaller shield won't actually have any effect on their timing because it is in the big shield.

Is there something I'm missing?
 

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
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It is impossible to control the size of Nana's shield. It is either big, small or broken. Anything in-between can only be achieved by the shield going down by itself/the shield being hit.

With that in mind, if you do an L/R light shield (not a buffered Z light shield), you can simply change the strength of Popo's shield by applying different amounts of pressure to the L or R button, while Nana's will stay the same size (NOTE: Popo's shield will still be a light shield, you can just vary the size of it).

If you want Nana to have the big shield and Popo to have the small "fully-pressed" shield, do a light shield with one button (L or R) and then press the opposite button in completely.

I'm experimenting with other shield stuff right now. I want to figure out exactly how much you can control their shields separately.
 

Avalancer

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 24, 2008
Messages
262
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The Netherlands
whew

i got 5th today, lost to lucien in pools 1-2 to get 2nd seed

then in bracket i lost to bob$'s marth 0-2, then sfat 0-2. bob$ was close games but sfat dominated. that guy is so good....

i feel like if i want to beat higher level foxes, i really need to grind in that matchup and get a lot more experience.
Grats dude. Fighting foxes can be easy if you know how to. It's just a matter of mindgames to catch him in your grab

Also, how do people use UpB near an edge, get popo on the edge and launch nana upwards? I've seen Wobbles do it without problems, but I can't get it right.
 

Grim Tuesday

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It is 100% about spacing.

Just practice starting the up-b at different heights (it's not the same height for every stage, though) and you'll eventually get it.

Things that can go wrong:
If you up-b too low (difficult) Popo will grab the ledge and Nana will just fall to her death.
If you up-b too high (not difficult) you'll get the standard Belay.
 

Smasher89

Smash Lord
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Grats dude. Fighting foxes can be easy if you know how to. It's just a matter of mindgames to catch him in your grab

Also, how do people use UpB near an edge, get popo on the edge and launch nana upwards? I've seen Wobbles do it without problems, but I can't get it right.
Just practice the timing, it takes a while to get the right spacing but it´s useful for a variety of reasons to be able to do it.

IMO beating fox is all about having some good practice to use the good tricks you learn when you play the matchup. Theres quite alot of dynamic in the matchup, since some camps, some rushdown and both needs to get used to to be able to handle them.
Playing against a rushdown fox is the hardest but also the most fun thing to play in the entire game since both players really need to be on top.
VTS- nice combo^^
 

choknater

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yeah. sfat is really solid at the matchup, he knows what to do. i just need practice. i have my techniques, but many of them don't work on him while they work on everyone else. i need to pay attention greatly during the neutral game against him, i just need more experience
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
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hey does anyone know what the chaingrab percents are on sheik.

for solo popo
and dthrow dsmash when you hae both?

I assume dthrow dair with both lasts for the largest range, but i don't really know the ranges...solo popo's cg seemed to only last till 45-50 on DI away by sheik..is that about right?
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
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Aug 24, 2007
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Claremont, CA
There are so many different effective styles of playing Fox that I don't even like to talk about "the Fox match-up" anymore. Just pay attention to what the particular Fox you're playing against likes to do and do whatever you can to abuse that.
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
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I'm not very good with shield tricks. My general train of thought is to hard shield if I don't think the opponent will be able to shield poke me, and do a big light shield otherwise. The light shield trick is nice in that screws with people who aren't familiar with ICs (basically everyone), but I don't expect it to help me in any of the match-ups or against the people I struggle with in particular, so I don't do it much.


My top priority right now is to get better at dealing with Falcon's edge-canceled dair, because that causes me way more trouble than I feel like it should.

In unrelated news, I hear Wobbles did some cool things with Mario this weekend.
 

choknater

Smash Obsessed
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sfat is freakin scary because he l-cancels

there were so many times i reacted in a certain way and then realized "an average fox would've messed up that l-cancel"

even when i did big shield small shield lol.

so at another point i ended up in my shield, holding it, not sure how to get out besides wd back. i have a feeling this is the way to beat ic's with any character, and as ic's i have to find out how to avoid that situation

i am thankful for some advice i got on this thread before about using bairs, ftilt, and utilt in the neutral game more. it's done a lot... but i gotta get better! gotta watch closely
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
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I just try to roll away at a random time if I know the Fox isn't going to mess up. And yeah, simply not letting Fox hit your shield in the first place can be good. Bair is the most obvious alternative to shielding, and it actually has a better payoff then I used to give it credit for; at low percentages, you can just immediately keep up the pressure by WDing towards Fox. At higher percentages, you might not have a direct follow-up, but Fox will be in an awkward position and if you try to corner him, you might be able to bait him into running into a bair/fsmash/etc. If he doesn't fall for that, then you can try just rushing him even though he's at the edge, although that can be risky.
 
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