General Discussion & Character Rankings

[Vyse]

I'm sorry attila. I am an ******* like that :9

I just think it's something we should bother talking about unless it's absolutely necessary. It's a debate that very easily gets people riled up over something that's been done to death a thousand times, with each side having an answer to everything the other side could possibly say. I'm just trying to save people hours of their lives lol.

Attila, what do you think of the Japanese ruleset?

I very very much like the idea of forcing players to play sudden death if they time out. It punishes players for timing out the opponent. Instead of putting them at a definite win, it puts them in a high risk, high reward situation that I would think is too risky to want to force to happen.

 

[swordsaint]

Something Mic said in the Perth thread that caught my attention.

If that happens then the losing player can time out the clock and get sudden death kill.

 

[luke_atyeo]

My time has passed!

bull****, your time is yet to come! come to canberra for my tourney god**** it

WTF I beg to differ

you can beg to differ all you like, but falco has a slight advantage on snake (or so its believed) I'm not sure how you would think snake wins over falco though given that you dont really have a top snake in perth right?

 

[Vlade]

Falco killing snake? Dream on

 

[Vyse]

Something Mic said in the Perth thread that caught my attention.

If that happens then the losing player can time out the clock and get sudden death kill.

It's a two way street though. Neither player should try to strive for it. And it encourages the player who's winning to play aggressively to make sure they actually get the KO instead of playing uber safe once they have a percent lead.

It would be up to the winning player to hunt down the losing player more than before to prevent that from happening, and that role would swap back and forth.

It basically discourages the better player from camping til the time runs out.

 

[Splice]

Somehow Falco has the advantage in the vs. GaW MU, Whooaaaeeeeooooh!

J-Birds i thought you used Snake and IC's?

 

[Attila_]

i very much like the sudden death rule. although ss does bring up a valid point. but i suppose since they play with 10 minute timers, the losing player has a hell of a lot of running away to do. and theyre stricter on stalling rules and stuff there too, once again reducing the gayness. this is also something i would like to try. perhaps, if someone is obviously running away from a losing position, they should lose at the discretion of a judge? i dunno. just throwing ideas around.

i like the 'one glide per land under the stage' rule also, once again, trying to cut down the gay. 10 minute timers actually arent that bad either, but they do promote a very safe playstyle.

i think the one match sets are stupid, but they agree, saying its necessary to play though so many people in a small amount of time. at least the important matches are out of three.

the crews rule about refreshing stocks is equally stupid. shouldnt have to explain why.

more stages please! although i do think they have the neutrals right.

the rock-paper-scissors adv is too severe imo. characters should be double blinded first, then the rest of it is ok.

i do like the idea of a B bracket, and plan on introducing it to aus. these people would normally be mucking around on tourney tvs anyway, and it actively gets them involved.

 

[M]

I very very much like the idea of forcing players to play sudden death if they time out. It punishes players for timing out the opponent. Instead of putting them at a definite win, it puts them in a high risk, high reward situation that I would think is too risky to want to force to happen.

Thaaaaaaaaat. I think Toby would agree sudden death is the most amazing way to finish a match, easily.

 

[Attila_]

the most amazing match ive ever seen ended in a sudden death.

ics vs kirby

ics try to bait kirby... kirby's no fool... omg kirby grabbed popo! look, its an uthrow, surely popo is a gonner at 300%... oh look, popo has been send flying for a star ko! but wait! nana just used an nair and killed kirby off the side! kirby died first! ics win! OMG

 

[Splice]

Can someone explain what a B bracket is?

 

[Nixernator]

Sudden Death on a tie? Hello more usage of bowser.

 

[Sieg]

****ing implement it then.

Stop sitting around like *****es.

 

[Vlade]

B bracket sounds nice

*proposes the idea to perth*

 

[Attila_]

@splice: all the japanese stuff is detailed in my thread in tactical discussion. have a read through and everything will become clear.

****ing implement it then.

Stop sitting around like *****es.

its the tourney off season and im overseas. take a strong sedative and have a lie down. please.

EDIT: why does j.a.p. come up as ***? lol

 

[Zero]

****ing implement it then.

Stop sitting around like *****es.

It's 12am with no tournaments in planning. ***** more rolf

 

[Toby.]

Guys the A and B bracket stuff is nothing new. Variants of the swiss system have already been implemented in Australian tournaments before. I think my very first tournament was swiss actually. The japanese version is quite interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss-system_tournament

It has its positives and its negatives. Can be quite fun!

 

[M]

I believe Ted is the main negative of the Swiss system. >.>

 

[Vyse]

I'm going to talk to Kaion and Hotdog about implementing the sudden death rule in future tournaments.

The stigma about this though (and why the Americans and even I am reluctant to commit to it), is that it punishes camping as a strategy when it's a perfectly legitimate strategy (When I say camping, I mean Wario 'Air dodge everywhere' type camping, not MK camping under the stage camping).

Implementing this kind of rule affects characters like Wario, Pit, Rob and other characters with naturally campy playstyles.

BUT, on the other hand, we ban stages that might make these characters more viable, so I don't know. I kind of sit on the fence about it.

EDIT: Swiss + 1 round matches might make for an interesting experience. Since you get to play a larger variety of people. Ultimately, I like our system using pools though.

 

[Nova]

the most amazing match ive ever seen ended in a sudden death.

ics vs kirby

ics try to bait kirby... kirby's no fool... omg kirby grabbed popo! look, its an uthrow, surely popo is a gonner at 300%... oh look, popo has been send flying for a star ko! but wait! nana just used an nair and killed kirby off the side! kirby died first! ics win! OMG

Mwhahaha. I am for the Sudden Death rule.

 

[tedeth]

The suddendeath rule is stupid.

You're all stupid.

The thing about most kill moves is that they're easy to avoid, even on like 150%, if they aren't trying to fight back most characters can avoid most kill moves.

You're just making the game more campy.

Best game of Brawl I've ever had was against SD at SQUAT where we spent the last 2 min of the match fighting for % lead. I won by 4%, hitting him DURING THE 5 SECOND COUNTDOWN!!!

 

[Vyse]

Ted, I like Brawl the way it is personally, in much the same way you do, but I'm just exploring new ideas. I'd like to say that people who don't get the kind of experience they're looking for in the current state of Brawl should just play Melee, but that's not really the best answer to give. I like seeing the true metagame of any game in action, regardless of whether people find it entertaining or stupid or whatever. Striving for that, whatever it is, is what I like to see. A lot of people can't appreciate it though.

I disagree with you about the proposal making the game more campy, because neither player should strive for a sudden death finish (unless one player is super confident in their Sudden death skills/knows how to grab the falling bombs lol).

However, I do realise that it also punishes campy playstyles severely and that's not really a good thing. This rule is basically saying "Camping in any form is not okay", which is just unfair to those characters that are naturally best played campy.

I know it seems like I'm wishy washy in my opinion, but I'm just trying to voice both sides of the topic.

 

[C~Dog]

How about we instead of sudden death, if the timer runs out, the winner is decided by a vote from the spectators?

 

[Attila_]

important to note that japan plays with a 10 minute time limit. camping is fine and shouldnt make you go overtime when you take this into consideration.

 

[swordsaint]

That's stupid and bias. I like Brawl, I just don't like where it's heading.

Edit: What Attila, said. A 10 minute clock is enough to allow a campy character to camp.

 

[tedeth]

How about, if the timer runs out, the 2 involved parties must roshambo to decide the winner.

I'm sure DMG could camp for 10 min easily.

 

[Vyse]

What's annoying about all of this is that Japan's ruleset works, but you really need to take both the ten minute timer and the 1 round matches along with the sudden death rule. You can't pick and choose from the three of these things in their ruleset.

And while it may discourage time outs from occurring, it doesn't really solve much more than that.

 

[CAOTIC]

Japan doesn't set landmark precedents with their rulesets either.

 

[manofgames4555]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHQZBcLb5Z8


GNES (diddy) VS M2K(metaknight) Winterfest game 3 (brawl)

PS. WALNUT (A MARIO MAIN IN A METAKNIGHT WORLD).

 

[Shaya]

Best of one when its only 3 stages literally makes most of what I see from Japan as extremely slow.

It's obvious by how over-patient and over-passive all their play styles are.
Every FD match is like 8 minutes minimum.
HUZZAH.

Maybe that's why approaching an MK backwards with Snake is viable there... MKs dont know how to like... punish... silly options only spaceeeee dftilt and tornado.

Oh, and in my opinion of snake's match ups, minus dah trolljan:

MK: 45:55
Wario: 50:50
Falco: 55:45
Diddy: 55:45
Dedede: 40:60
Marth: 45:55
G&W: 60:40
Pikachu: 55:45
Olimar: 50:50

Who cares about dah rest.
Snake's position entirely rests on Dededes, and his other 'even match ups' not occuring as often they should at higher levels because of MK.

In other words, focussing on primarily the MK match up is almost acceptable if you're at a high enough competancy as it is. Snake's definitely viable at a high level, but players can ignore many natural disadvantages and throw them away as w/e relying on an MK trodden parth.

Hence you have some players, like lets say Ally, losing to a Dedede once and proclaiming he's sick of GETTING GIMPED BY OTHER CHARACTERS or something, and starts saying he's going to main MK. Or that Wario waited around in the air a little while as to not jump into maybe an UTILT or pivot grab (or maybe a banana), and then wafted when punishing a baited move and suddenly Wario's the gayest character in the game.

 

[luke_atyeo]

I believe Ted is the main negative of the Swiss system. >.>

lol I remember that, teds first act tourney, didnt lose a single swiss match but then came 3rd
2nd act tourney, teds record of matches was 35 wins 1 loss, who can beat that?

Maybe that's why approaching an MK backwards with Snake is viable there... MKs dont know how to like... punish... silly options only spaceeeee dftilt and tornado

oi dont be a mega-noob, approaching mk backward is done in America too, havok was teaching me how to do it and I've seen ally do it to m2k before.

 

[Nova]

*Only agreed with the Sudden Death rule because Attila gave an example of it making a Kirby lose*

I like the rules we have in place now; except I should have 10 lives and everyone else should have 1 with a handicap of 300%.

Also Snake is fun. MK (when I use him) is C-stick thumbs down down.

 

[luke_atyeo]

"you mean I have to play another kirby? **** this!"

 

[Nova]

Oh, that is the best post ever.

My Failcon "shoot myself" taunt representns my thoughts exactly on the pink sucking blob. <3 Luke. H8 Kirby.

 

[CAOTIC]

A': *** is a derogatory word used in WWII. I think we're well and truly over that era, but for the sake of political correctness (American site and all), the censor exists.

 

[Nova]

**** ******* *******.
Dàmn bàstard jàckass.

Etc. Mega sigh.

 

[Sieg]

Was it just me or did anyone else notice Luke's amazing avy? lol.

 

[Attila_]

Best of one when its only 3 stages literally makes most of what I see from Japan as extremely slow.

It's obvious by how over-patient and over-passive all their play styles are.
Every FD match is like 8 minutes minimum.
HUZZAH.

Maybe that's why approaching an MK backwards with Snake is viable there... MKs dont know how to like... punish... silly options only spaceeeee dftilt and tornado.

Oh, and in my opinion of snake's match ups, minus dah trolljan:

MK: 45:55
Wario: 50:50
Falco: 55:45
Diddy: 55:45
Dedede: 40:60
Marth: 45:55
G&W: 60:40
Pikachu: 55:45
Olimar: 50:50

Who cares about dah rest.
Snake's position entirely rests on Dededes, and his other 'even match ups' not occuring as often they should at higher levels because of MK.

In other words, focussing on primarily the MK match up is almost acceptable if you're at a high enough competancy as it is. Snake's definitely viable at a high level, but players can ignore many natural disadvantages and throw them away as w/e relying on an MK trodden parth.

Hence you have some players, like lets say Ally, losing to a Dedede once and proclaiming he's sick of GETTING GIMPED BY OTHER CHARACTERS or something, and starts saying he's going to main MK. Or that Wario waited around in the air a little while as to not jump into maybe an UTILT or pivot grab (or maybe a banana), and then wafted when punishing a baited move and suddenly Wario's the gayest character in the game.

olimar is snake's worst mu, just for the record. unless you can tech chase on reaction like souther, this mu is full gay. hang on, what's oli doing getting grabbed?

 

[Jupz]

Lol, MK should in no way be banned. The ONLY way he should be banned is if he is "too good", which he's quite clearly not. He's the best character in the game. SMART PEOPLE WHO WANT TO DO WELL will pick him up resulting in way more usage of him then any other character.

The japanese ruleset is stupid. Just stop and think about it for a little while.

I'm on 130% and you're on 10%, both on the last stock. There are 2 minutes to go. **** you if you think I'm gonna keep fighting normally. I'm gonna plank for 2 minutes, causing the match to go to a sudden death, meaning we both have an even chance at winning a very luck based contest.

The playing out of sudden death PUNISHES THE PLAYER WHO IS WINNING. It forces the player who is winning to approach the other player or have to go to sudden death. lolwtf.

 

[Vyse]

@Jupz:

It boils down to two philosophies:

Current Ruleset: Rewards Camping to obtain a time out victory.
Japanese Ruleset: Rewards Approaching to avoid a time out sudden death.

But, I guess the same problem exists either way.

 

[tedeth]

No way Vyse. You're missing something there. The Japanese ruleset can actually encourage the person at a % disadvantage to camp. I can't see how you can't see that. If tehre's 2 min left, they no they can't come back, they don't want to lose that stock, they can just play really safe and go to sudden death.

It's not hard for most characters to avoid most kill moves.

Basically you're almost rewarding the guy who was doing worse.

EDIT: And think of trying to kill like, SNAKE. You've got him on 200% and for all your efforts he just won't die. Oop, time ran out. He's on 220, i'm on 0. Great, what a waste of time.