Toby.
Smash Master
Uh... D3 does have bad matchups you know.
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General Discussion & Character Rankings
- Thread starter Shaya
- Start date
Yeah, D3 is so awesome, if he went 1st I'd probably go straight for him, but certain characters make him seem bad when I use him, I dont know any of his MUs.
Although I'm a really annoyed if you ban MK i've been practicing him for 4 months, and I just (like only weeks ago) got him good enough for tournament so now I can use him at a tournament, and you are going to ban him
Attila you better be best in Australia when you get back with all the stuff you be saying, practice your IC's in Japan too though yeah? Do they do the CGs over there lol?
Although I'm a really annoyed if you ban MK i've been practicing him for 4 months, and I just (like only weeks ago) got him good enough for tournament so now I can use him at a tournament, and you are going to ban him
Attila you better be best in Australia when you get back with all the stuff you be saying, practice your IC's in Japan too though yeah? Do they do the CGs over there lol?
This is the point though.
This game is too much about what character you can counterpick to beat this character.
Which inevitably leads you up the tier list to the god tier ******.
Since when should a match be decided on what character you can counter with?
I really find that stupid.
This game is too much about what character you can counterpick to beat this character.
Which inevitably leads you up the tier list to the god tier ******.
Since when should a match be decided on what character you can counter with?
I really find that stupid.
tedeth
Smash Master
Yeah I think peopel are takling D3 up more than they should be.
C~Dog
Smash Champion
But D3 is so good, i mean like Chaingrabbing etc etc.
Toby.
Smash Master
He really isn't number 1 material at all lol.
tedeth
Smash Master
If chaingrabbing was unbeatable ICs would be #1.
I know it's easier for D3 to get a grab but it has nowhere near as much potential. There are plenty of chars to counter D3.
I know it's easier for D3 to get a grab but it has nowhere near as much potential. There are plenty of chars to counter D3.
just some quick stuff
- cant rely on the player behind mk not being able to deal with things, because mk (the character) has the potential to deal with absolutely everything
- mk (as a character) butchers many of the cast without effort
- snake still loses to mk, but he has one of the better mus against him
- d3 would most definately jump to number 1, but he at least loses to ics
- mk does break the cp system, reducing diversity and making the game more boring
- i only ever discussed a temp ban, nothing permanent (yet)
@splice: the japanese buffer all cgs. i have posted vids of this. i only really will be using them for my bad mus, cause i dont think you can competently main or play at top level with multiple characters. and what's all this stuff ive been saying that means i better be number 1? i have improved quite significantly though.
- cant rely on the player behind mk not being able to deal with things, because mk (the character) has the potential to deal with absolutely everything
- mk (as a character) butchers many of the cast without effort
- snake still loses to mk, but he has one of the better mus against him
- d3 would most definately jump to number 1, but he at least loses to ics
- mk does break the cp system, reducing diversity and making the game more boring
- i only ever discussed a temp ban, nothing permanent (yet)
@splice: the japanese buffer all cgs. i have posted vids of this. i only really will be using them for my bad mus, cause i dont think you can competently main or play at top level with multiple characters. and what's all this stuff ive been saying that means i better be number 1? i have improved quite significantly though.
Toby.
Smash Master
you keep saying d3 would jump to first without really saying why.
d3 loses to climbers badly. he also loses to falco, olimar (although that seems to be debatable at the moment), pikachu and wario.
Not really #1 material imo.
edit: and apparently he goes even with diddy? lol
d3 loses to climbers badly. he also loses to falco, olimar (although that seems to be debatable at the moment), pikachu and wario.
Not really #1 material imo.
edit: and apparently he goes even with diddy? lol
tedeth
Smash Master
Toby don't argue with Attila, he'll hit you accross the head with his massive ego, killing you instantly.
Can we not do the debate here please?
As long as it's not an issue in Australia, it shouldn't be discussed here.
I enjoy having Metaknight in the metagame and I love it when new players join the QLD scene as MK mains. It means I get more matchup practice against them
As long as MK isn't banworthy (he isn't because he's survived being banned 4 times) it's just annoying to read both for me, and everyone else who is anti-ban.
On the other hand, Ice Climbers literally break the basic dynamics of the game with their fusion glitch. lol.
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idk. I love Brawl as it is. I love going to tournaments, and seeing glimpses of the American metagame in our own tournaments. I wish more QLDers would pick him up.
As long as it's not an issue in Australia, it shouldn't be discussed here.
I enjoy having Metaknight in the metagame and I love it when new players join the QLD scene as MK mains. It means I get more matchup practice against them
As long as MK isn't banworthy (he isn't because he's survived being banned 4 times) it's just annoying to read both for me, and everyone else who is anti-ban.
On the other hand, Ice Climbers literally break the basic dynamics of the game with their fusion glitch. lol.
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idk. I love Brawl as it is. I love going to tournaments, and seeing glimpses of the American metagame in our own tournaments. I wish more QLDers would pick him up.
Yeah about that dedede character being no.1 if MK wasn't around...
Think of all those characters who beat D3 yet don't beat MK and are most likely being knocked out by MKs in a healthy scene?
Olimar, Pikachu, Ice Climbers, Falco
loooool.
Realistically the only character to gain with MK gone is Marth.
But it would be a nice metagame
where:
D3 beats Snake/Marth
Marth beats Snake/Falco
Falco beats Snake/D3
Wario goes even with D3/Falco and beats Snake.
Think of all those characters who beat D3 yet don't beat MK and are most likely being knocked out by MKs in a healthy scene?
Olimar, Pikachu, Ice Climbers, Falco
loooool.
Realistically the only character to gain with MK gone is Marth.
But it would be a nice metagame
where:
D3 beats Snake/Marth
Marth beats Snake/Falco
Falco beats Snake/D3
Wario goes even with D3/Falco and beats Snake.
Toby.
Smash Master
Anthony, I'm pretty sure we're just talking about what would happen if metaknight were to be banned. I for one am not talking about whether or not we should actually ban him.
To begin with attila tried to discuss it, but nobody except splice was very interested iirc.
If you really want the conversation to stop, sure, but its not actually a MK ban debate :/. It's more of a debate on how good D3 is.
To begin with attila tried to discuss it, but nobody except splice was very interested iirc.
If you really want the conversation to stop, sure, but its not actually a MK ban debate :/. It's more of a debate on how good D3 is.
it would be a ohko O_o
d3 goes about even with falco apparently, even with diddy, close to even with wario, and only has 60:40s against oli, pika and ics (who each have other concerns to worry about). more importantly, he beats marth and snake, who are very strong in both the current and hypothetical metagames.
EDIT after seeing vyse's post:
please note that mk was not mentioned once in this post. therefore i am not ignoring what you just said, but rather discussing d3's potential in the metagame.
Nixernator
Smash Ace
Ok with all this discussion I'm going to lay down some serious thoughts on the issue.
The reason MK should be banned, is only when he over centralizes the metagame solely on him. That is the only time. He is undeniably the best character, but we are still seeing diversity here in Australia. Let me get this straight, we have no or maybe just one solid MK in the whole of Aus (Chris is too gud). Look at the top players around the states, NSW we have Shaya and mebbe Ted, Toby and Scoot (Marth, wario/wolf, PT (PT!!!) and Falco/Snake), Melb we have Attila, Tibz, Earl mebbe Splice and Afro (Snake, Diddy, MK, and GnW and Pit/MK), Qld have Chris, Hotdogs, J-Birds and Jezmo (MK, Kirby, Squirtle-squirt-squirt-squirtleeee and Wolf), SA have... DJB, Ant, Deagle?, Nova?, Apollo (Lucario/Snake/Sonic/MK (lol), Ganon/Snake, Fox, ?, ZSS/MK) and WA has Corpse, Vlade, Ric, Alzi? (Tink, Falco, ?, Tink).
See how little MK there really is at the top of Aus metagame? He is in no way dominating our metagame, in Australia Skill wins. That is the bottom line. No one has really grabbed MK and proved unbeatable purely by MK alone (Didn't Earl place like 7th with Link?). Everyone plays who they enjoy here, ask around at your next tourny about why people main who they main. Especially focusing on people who were low tier but switched. People main who they like here, its a fact, and most people who switched did not switch because "OMG MK IS LIEK SOOO BROKEN AND I CAN'T PLAY IN TOURNIES COZ OF HIM!!!!!!111111" they switch because the character was unsuited to tournament play.
You guys saying MK kills char diversity? Where? Which state has MK dominating all the scene and making people switch to survive? Other top tiers are the main culprits in ruining low tier. D3 and Marth make just as many, if not more chars unviable as MK. As does Snake, Falco and IC's. Face it, a ban of MK is unneeded at the minute in Australia.
The reason MK should be banned, is only when he over centralizes the metagame solely on him. That is the only time. He is undeniably the best character, but we are still seeing diversity here in Australia. Let me get this straight, we have no or maybe just one solid MK in the whole of Aus (Chris is too gud). Look at the top players around the states, NSW we have Shaya and mebbe Ted, Toby and Scoot (Marth, wario/wolf, PT (PT!!!) and Falco/Snake), Melb we have Attila, Tibz, Earl mebbe Splice and Afro (Snake, Diddy, MK, and GnW and Pit/MK), Qld have Chris, Hotdogs, J-Birds and Jezmo (MK, Kirby, Squirtle-squirt-squirt-squirtleeee and Wolf), SA have... DJB, Ant, Deagle?, Nova?, Apollo (Lucario/Snake/Sonic/MK (lol), Ganon/Snake, Fox, ?, ZSS/MK) and WA has Corpse, Vlade, Ric, Alzi? (Tink, Falco, ?, Tink).
See how little MK there really is at the top of Aus metagame? He is in no way dominating our metagame, in Australia Skill wins. That is the bottom line. No one has really grabbed MK and proved unbeatable purely by MK alone (Didn't Earl place like 7th with Link?). Everyone plays who they enjoy here, ask around at your next tourny about why people main who they main. Especially focusing on people who were low tier but switched. People main who they like here, its a fact, and most people who switched did not switch because "OMG MK IS LIEK SOOO BROKEN AND I CAN'T PLAY IN TOURNIES COZ OF HIM!!!!!!111111" they switch because the character was unsuited to tournament play.
You guys saying MK kills char diversity? Where? Which state has MK dominating all the scene and making people switch to survive? Other top tiers are the main culprits in ruining low tier. D3 and Marth make just as many, if not more chars unviable as MK. As does Snake, Falco and IC's. Face it, a ban of MK is unneeded at the minute in Australia.
Toby.
Smash Master
get ***** snake
M
+9999999999
IMO, Marth would be seeing much finer days with MK gone, his only truly difficult matchup banned. He destroys the lower lot of the tier list just as much as MK does in many cases. Dedede, is maybe the only real issue, but even then its not that bad, right?
Some counter points of discussion, Attila
- No, you cant rely on the player, but it's sorta why he doesnt need to be banned yet ; being Australia, we can rely on the player not to be able to use MK to deal with everything, Thus MK doesnt need to be banned for this reason in Australia yet, imo at least, perhaps you think that if he could potentially have players who use him in that way in less than a year that we should deal with it before it happens?
- Yeah MK is a bit easier to use than other characters, that is true, but to be top 5 in Australia, lets be honest you are going to have to be have to skilled to an extent that isn't easy, but at the lower end of our PR, the MK users may have less trouble with them than the Snake users and such, but I do not think it would affect their positioning (the top MKs).
- Yeah I know, on certain stages it is pretty much exactly neutral MU though I have heard and can believe/see how that would work. But yeah, it's still no counter, but likely the best bet without using the Star Warrior himself.
- I can See Dedede being top 3 with MK banned. I do think without MK, Diddy would be number one though. Maybe Wario i dont know much about Wario.
- Yeah he does break the CP system, but please dont say he is what makes it boring/reduces diversity, at least stage wise. Character wise I guess he reduces diversity, but stage CP wise it doesnt do either of those although is annoying to be able to successfully Stage CP him with only a few characters. Minor point I wanted to clear up, I mean TO's are the one banning stages reducing diversity and making the game boring lol jks, although I would like a few more stages but yeah whatever.
- Ok, like see how it goes sorta thing? You could have one tournament as MK banned (maybe yours) and have the other (Vermy and Corndog) as MK allowed, and see how they run in contrast with placings/enjoyment, if that'd suffice as a test for a ban or temp ban and such.
And you sound good coz you say (or sound like your implying) you've learnt to deal with Gay MK better, and that type of playstyle, and other bad Snake MUs and generally you've been to Japan so now you have to be better anyway, regardless of what you said. I can understand you still losing to Tibs, that would make sense, but you should beat everyone else now.
EDIT: lol @ 10+ posts before i finish one. Attila if you are interested I'd enjoy discussing this with you on MSN...
- No, you cant rely on the player, but it's sorta why he doesnt need to be banned yet ; being Australia, we can rely on the player not to be able to use MK to deal with everything, Thus MK doesnt need to be banned for this reason in Australia yet, imo at least, perhaps you think that if he could potentially have players who use him in that way in less than a year that we should deal with it before it happens?
- Yeah MK is a bit easier to use than other characters, that is true, but to be top 5 in Australia, lets be honest you are going to have to be have to skilled to an extent that isn't easy, but at the lower end of our PR, the MK users may have less trouble with them than the Snake users and such, but I do not think it would affect their positioning (the top MKs).
- Yeah I know, on certain stages it is pretty much exactly neutral MU though I have heard and can believe/see how that would work. But yeah, it's still no counter, but likely the best bet without using the Star Warrior himself.
- I can See Dedede being top 3 with MK banned. I do think without MK, Diddy would be number one though. Maybe Wario i dont know much about Wario.
- Yeah he does break the CP system, but please dont say he is what makes it boring/reduces diversity, at least stage wise. Character wise I guess he reduces diversity, but stage CP wise it doesnt do either of those although is annoying to be able to successfully Stage CP him with only a few characters. Minor point I wanted to clear up, I mean TO's are the one banning stages reducing diversity and making the game boring
lol jks, although I would like a few more stages but yeah whatever.- Ok, like see how it goes sorta thing? You could have one tournament as MK banned (maybe yours) and have the other (Vermy and Corndog) as MK allowed, and see how they run in contrast with placings/enjoyment, if that'd suffice as a test for a ban or temp ban and such.
And you sound good coz you say (or sound like your implying) you've learnt to deal with Gay MK better, and that type of playstyle, and other bad Snake MUs and generally you've been to Japan so now you have to be better anyway, regardless of what you said. I can understand you still losing to Tibs, that would make sense, but you should beat everyone else now.
EDIT: lol @ 10+ posts before i finish one. Attila if you are interested I'd enjoy discussing this with you on MSN...
Alright, I'm sorry, Toby, Attila, but the debate ****s me off to no end, so if I so much as get a whiff of it I pounce like a rabid dog, lol. Let the discussion continue:
Without MK, the game would devolve to a game about chaingrabs. Seriously. MK actually eliminates and gets around most of that lameness.
Without MK, the game would devolve to a game about chaingrabs. Seriously. MK actually eliminates and gets around most of that lameness.
Toby.
Smash Master
Anthony wubs.
I feel your pain, I really do. Hopefully the guys that spent ages writing those massive posts will notice that during that time the debate died
James one day you will be the very best, like no one ever was. My time has passed!
I feel your pain, I really do. Hopefully the guys that spent ages writing those massive posts will notice that during that time the debate died
James one day you will be the very best, like no one ever was. My time has passed!
Nixernator
Smash Ace
Sorry J-Birds I'm not sure on all the scenes going around Lol.
Andrew, I missed my serve of ego, maybe it got passed around...
Without MK Marth is no 1, or he should be if the Marth mains are anything to go by. IMO Diddy should be tho, with Snake still second. D3 gets countered by Marth? and Falco and IC's anyway (doesn't he?)
Andrew, I missed my serve of ego, maybe it got passed around...
Without MK Marth is no 1, or he should be if the Marth mains are anything to go by. IMO Diddy should be tho, with Snake still second. D3 gets countered by Marth? and Falco and IC's anyway (doesn't he?)
@nix: you missed the point. mk being in the metagame completely restricts its development
@toby: dw, im awesome anyway
@splice:
- diddy loses to wario, marth, falco, and possibly snake too. not the best, theyre too common/good.
- character diversity is important imo... talk to people who have quit or lost interest... most of the time its because mk dominates too hard... seriously, go around and ask.
- about 90% of my playing time here has been against mk. i know the mu very well. still dont know a bunch of others though. but my general skill has improved quite a bit
- im not complaining about mk as much as i am trying to make the game more fun. even if hes temp banned for a tourney or two i think the metagame will spice up considerably.
EDIT: ok, end of discussion from me too. i got schoolwork to do anyway O_o
@toby: dw, im awesome anyway
@splice:
- diddy loses to wario, marth, falco, and possibly snake too. not the best, theyre too common/good.
- character diversity is important imo... talk to people who have quit or lost interest... most of the time its because mk dominates too hard... seriously, go around and ask.
- about 90% of my playing time here has been against mk. i know the mu very well. still dont know a bunch of others though. but my general skill has improved quite a bit
- im not complaining about mk as much as i am trying to make the game more fun. even if hes temp banned for a tourney or two i think the metagame will spice up considerably.
EDIT: ok, end of discussion from me too. i got schoolwork to do anyway O_o
Vlade
Social Outcast
WTF I beg to differ
Squirtle would be amazing as a character by himself. No fatigue or anything.
Vlade
Social Outcast
And yes I agree squirtle would be quite good, though he'd suffer against the likes of marth and a couple other matchups (not too sure on the specifics >_>)
Nixernator
Smash Ace
Sorry how does MK in Australia restrict the development? I don't see MK dominating results, or MK causing people to change chars. As I said the reason is usually the chars flaws or other top tiers, in Aus we are more laid back and play who we want (or did you forget that in Japan?), like seriously dude. X still reps Fox here, Jei lays down Pit ****, Tanman plays Sonic (and that guy rips it up). No one I know changed chars because of MK, and that means we're still developing our games with him there.
Toby.
Smash Master
I'm not sure what part of my post you're replying to attila :S
But ok.
Without fatigue, a lone squirtle would be good, yeah.
But ok.
Without fatigue, a lone squirtle would be good, yeah.
@Zero: What was egotistical about my post? I don't see what I could have said to offend/sound arrogant, sorry
@Attila:
- I'll have to look that up I wouldnt have thought Diddy did that badly against those characters.
- I dont know/recall anyone in our scene who quit, and if there was anyone who did it's more likely "Melee is better" rather than "MK is annoying" in most cases, haha
- Ah ok, that's good. More friendlys with you when you get back then i guess
- I understand, with the Temp ban. A tourney or 2 ban would be a nice experiment I guess, Xyro in America did that I think.
@Attila:
- I'll have to look that up I wouldnt have thought Diddy did that badly against those characters.
- I dont know/recall anyone in our scene who quit, and if there was anyone who did it's more likely "Melee is better" rather than "MK is annoying" in most cases, haha
- Ah ok, that's good. More friendlys with you when you get back then i guess
- I understand, with the Temp ban. A tourney or 2 ban would be a nice experiment I guess, Xyro in America did that I think.
M
+9999999999
Would probably be seriously threatened by G&W as well if I'm thinking along the right lines.
Also on the MK ban subject: In Australia you'd only be limiting a very small handful of players, and only a couple of players that actually place well.
Toby.
Smash Master
the important thing is that snake will always destroy pokemon trainer <3
this makes me sad... we'll see how they do against my fox next time
@ricky: you missed the point to. but the discussion has been ended by a mod, so i wont say anything.
Toby.
Smash Master
I'll have to resist the urge to use my pikachuthis makes me sad... we'll see how they do against my fox next time
@ricky: you missed the point to. but the discussion has been ended by a mod, so i wont say anything.
M
+9999999999
I was actually talking about the temp ban.
Though a full ban would only yield the same results anyway.
Though a full ban would only yield the same results anyway.