luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 10, 2008
- Messages
- 7,215
what is wrong with you people
-
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General Discussion & Character Rankings
- Thread starter Shaya
- Start date
C~Dog
Smash Champion
Look Luke, not everyone is the best at everything ever like you, okay?
luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 10, 2008
- Messages
- 7,215
unacceptable
Remastered
Smash Lord
Luigi V Diddy is in Luigi's favour but not by much imo. 60:40 - 55:45. They just struggle to trade blows and the match lasts a long time due to traction. Luigi has no disjoint on most of his moves (if at all) and the neutral air is not as prioritive as people usually argue, it just has a fluctuating knockback ratio compared to other moves and comes out quickly so it can punish gaps. Infact, Luigi is the only character without a move that can go through an MK tornado in full flight. Luigi can be infinited by D3, has a 70:30 MU on atleast 4 characters. 3 of which are in the high tiers. With MK gone Luigi won't move anywhere (unless down).
Marth would become the top character, he has one unfavourable MU outside of MK (which is 45:55 against D3, so still very winnable). The rest are 50:50 or in his favour. It has been argued in the states that if Marth could jump like MK he would even be above MK without banning.
If not Marth, it would then be Snake. Not only does Snake do well against MK, but almost all MU's are considered 50:50 against Snake or heavily stage dependant per character.
Marth would become the top character, he has one unfavourable MU outside of MK (which is 45:55 against D3, so still very winnable). The rest are 50:50 or in his favour. It has been argued in the states that if Marth could jump like MK he would even be above MK without banning.
If not Marth, it would then be Snake. Not only does Snake do well against MK, but almost all MU's are considered 50:50 against Snake or heavily stage dependant per character.
Leisha
Top Tier Pillow
Marth is fun to gimp :3
luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 10, 2008
- Messages
- 7,215
nah snake actually has a fair few counters, marth diddy and wario would all deserve the spot of number 1 more then snake if mk was removed from the game.
M
+9999999999
...Not Wario.
Leisha
Top Tier Pillow
Either marth or diddy would be best
Guess it depends really, doesnt really matter regardless since metaknight will never be banned anyway
Guess it depends really, doesnt really matter regardless since metaknight will never be banned anyway
d3/marth/diddy/wario would be best, as they then have no real bad mus
falco/snake/oli would be under that, as they have a few counters
falco/snake/oli would be under that, as they have a few counters
Remastered
Smash Lord
Ever tried to use D3 against Shelda, GnW or pikachu? As long as they know what they are doing it can be a pretty massive struggle.
dean.
.
Shelda and G&W aren't that bad (like 50:50). Olimar/Falco/Ice Climbers are worse.
i thought falco d3 was even, since falco can't recover and gets ***** by bair.
and d3 ics isn't that bad imo... 60:40 AT WORST, but not on most stages.
and d3 ics isn't that bad imo... 60:40 AT WORST, but not on most stages.
swordsaint
Smash Master
still up to your old antics i see.
falco d3 is pretty far from even...
winnable on some stages....
that's about it.
I thought you quit scott.
You sure you don't want to come to a tournament and knock me out? Otherwise I may win again, that would suck.
winnable on some stages....
that's about it.
I thought you quit scott.
You sure you don't want to come to a tournament and knock me out? Otherwise I may win again, that would suck.
I think scoot coming to a tournament is more likely.
M
+9999999999
I think another 3 stocking from iKill is even more likely.
I dont even know what the general opinion on GaW boards are anymore, but there is no way GaW vs D3 is 50:50, I just dont see how G&W doesn't totally destroy D3...
iono man... dedede likes shield grabbing well spaced bairs.
living longer than him,
having similar kill power,
good follow ups on reads from dthrow (poor G&W's tech rolls)
range
living longer than him,
having similar kill power,
good follow ups on reads from dthrow (poor G&W's tech rolls)
range
dean.
.
Because grab and bair. <-- reason why Dedede's usable.
Dedede boards say even. My experience leads me to the same conclusion.
Shaya's pretty much on the money.
swordsaint
Smash Master
i did
but i check this place still once a day out of habit, then make ****ty one liner comments like shaya, i'd love to knock you out... oh you mean brawl.
Remastered
Smash Lord
D3 boards haven't updated that in about 2 years. That was back when they considered D3 a heavy threat.
GnW shield pokes D3 well
No chain grab (unless you chase after 50%)
Can plank D3 like a champ
More priority and decent movement with better ariels.
Neither Zelda or shiek can be chained and try forward tilting with Shiek on D3
Also if IC's are good it can't be better than 70:30, D3's weight is the only thing that helps in that MU.
GnW shield pokes D3 well
No chain grab (unless you chase after 50%)
Can plank D3 like a champ
More priority and decent movement with better ariels.
Neither Zelda or shiek can be chained and try forward tilting with Shiek on D3
Also if IC's are good it can't be better than 70:30, D3's weight is the only thing that helps in that MU.
its a pretty bad and common misconception that dedede does badly against characters he can't cg.
he still has a 16% back throw, reliable follow ups off a very good down throw with reads.
An amazing bair, a good poke in ftilt, mix in ups in landing faster than reaction time inbetween bair, reverse utilt and grab, etc etc.
he still has a 16% back throw, reliable follow ups off a very good down throw with reads.
An amazing bair, a good poke in ftilt, mix in ups in landing faster than reaction time inbetween bair, reverse utilt and grab, etc etc.
Diddy's fair also can beat snake's utilt from the right angle.
It happened today. For serious.
It happened today. For serious.
xXArrowXx
Smash Champion
ike's counter beats all moves if you space it right
diddy's fair beats everything.
it's like marth's neutral air,
but gay and annoying,
compared to sexy and amazing.
it's like marth's neutral air,
but gay and annoying,
compared to sexy and amazing.
Remastered
Smash Lord
Nothing says sexy like a bloke wearing a tiara.
dean.
.
The G&W board updated their Dedede matchup about 6 months ago and decided on 50:50, and the Sheik board updated about 3 months ago and decided on 45:55 (50:50 for Shelda). It's a fairly recent consensus.
By only listing G&W's advantages of course the matchup is going to look heavily in his favour...
The only move that really shield pokes well is nair. Nair is good in this matchup, as Splice told me, but it's not really an approach/spacing tool that you need to shield instead of outright beat with Dedede's bair. Nair makes great platform pressure though.
No chaingrab isn't that bad... grabs with Dedede are still ridiculously rewarding and the damage lost from not being able to chaingrab is made up for by G&W's light weight somewhat. The only thing he'll really miss is the stage positioning advantage granted by being able to chaingrab to the edge of a stage.
I haven't been planked by a G&W (yet...) but while it's annoying it's not the end of the world, if I can handle a Pit planking then I can handle a G&W planking to some extent (though it's definately a point in G&W's favour). On the flip side, G&W doesn't have too many good options to actually get off the ledge onto the stage against Dedede...
I'm pretty sure "priority" is a myth and can be reduced to "disjoint" and "damage." From my experience G&W and Dedede trade bairs (which isn't good for G&W. Bair's pretty much the only aerial Dedede needs, apart from the occasional dair. Juggling is one of G&W's major selling points in this matchup, though. And if G&W misspaces and whifs something like a bair he'll get ftilted on landing. But he does outmanouever Dedede...
I said above why not being able to chaingrab isn't the worst thing for Dedede... but seriously, a pummel and a bthrow and Sheik's like a fifth of the way to kill percent as it is. Not to mention there's about ~100% difference between the kill percents of the two. Zelda's decent at helping this... but can't really force Dedede into any situations where she can land a killmove. She'll probably want to dsmash him offstage then try to lightning kick or uair his recovery. Sheik's ftilt is good in this matchup (as well as her keep-away game) and is very rewarding on hit but gets outranged by Dedede's ftilt, bair and can be shieldgrabbed so needs to be used with caution... Not to mention both Sheik and Zelda struggle to recover against Dedede.Neither Zelda or shiek can be chained and try forward tilting with Shiek on D3
I dunno... bair and dair are both good moves for platform camping, ftilt and dtilt are good for spacing (just don't misspace...) (I think ftilt outranges Blizzard?), fthrow is a good punish/seperator, bthrow is good to keep them seperated, Nana gets WoP if you can seperate them and their overall recovery loses to Dedede's bair. And Popo's pretty bad by himself: Dedede can shieldgrab him freely without worrying about Nana and Popo gets chaingrabbed...
Just my $0.02.
On GnW vs D3...
D3 really does get that much from Dthrow techchasing since Tech Get up into UpB isnt punishable upon reaction as far as I'm aware. GaWs techchase works better on D3 than vice versa for sures lol.
GaWs Nair Bair and Dair all sheild poke and due to GaWs control over the moves it's really more likely that the spacing is gonna be in his favour (if you tried to Utilt a Dair for example).
GaW and D3 die about the same % to the sides of stage, and their moves kill power are similair. The only advantage D3 has here is Utilt, because GaW dies quite early upwards.
GaWs planking isnt as good as Pits due to no projectile and no ability to go other side of stage (well you can but it's too scary to do :C)
But it's much harder to actually force GaW of the edge seeing as his wall of Airials is much more solid then Pits.
And it's pretty easy to get off edge since 3rd image part (with the fish out on the sides) of Nair beats your Bair, this is from experience, likely would have to do with spacing. Nair is GaWs new Bair, and has been for a long time, and due to better diagonal spacing when I use it I'm in a pretty good position to beat your stuff. Except idk about your rising Dair, is a good move tbh..
Idk what you mean by whiff Bair but GaW should be skimming D3s sheild with Bair or Nair to start a juggle (well it's not like there isn't 10 more different ways GaW can't start an easy juggle on D3 lol) and due to the way you're supposed to do it, you really wont Ftilt me unless I totally screw up and I don't really think that should happen or come into the MU, but then again that's all D3 has I guess, punishing screw ups?
I guess that is a pretty strong point. But apart from that all you have is Ftilt (good for pressure, makes approaches a little harder) Dair (Maybe just me but I have some trouble with it, probably cos im impatient) and Utilt (for easier kills)
I know I'm the minority here but I just don't see it being good at all for D3 even with the facts laid out on both boards it just seems silly to me.
D3 really does get that much from Dthrow techchasing since Tech Get up into UpB isnt punishable upon reaction as far as I'm aware. GaWs techchase works better on D3 than vice versa for sures lol.
GaWs Nair Bair and Dair all sheild poke and due to GaWs control over the moves it's really more likely that the spacing is gonna be in his favour (if you tried to Utilt a Dair for example).
GaW and D3 die about the same % to the sides of stage, and their moves kill power are similair. The only advantage D3 has here is Utilt, because GaW dies quite early upwards.
GaWs planking isnt as good as Pits due to no projectile and no ability to go other side of stage (well you can but it's too scary to do :C)
But it's much harder to actually force GaW of the edge seeing as his wall of Airials is much more solid then Pits.
And it's pretty easy to get off edge since 3rd image part (with the fish out on the sides) of Nair beats your Bair, this is from experience, likely would have to do with spacing. Nair is GaWs new Bair, and has been for a long time, and due to better diagonal spacing when I use it I'm in a pretty good position to beat your stuff. Except idk about your rising Dair, is a good move tbh..
Idk what you mean by whiff Bair but GaW should be skimming D3s sheild with Bair or Nair to start a juggle (well it's not like there isn't 10 more different ways GaW can't start an easy juggle on D3 lol) and due to the way you're supposed to do it, you really wont Ftilt me unless I totally screw up and I don't really think that should happen or come into the MU, but then again that's all D3 has I guess, punishing screw ups?
I guess that is a pretty strong point. But apart from that all you have is Ftilt (good for pressure, makes approaches a little harder) Dair (Maybe just me but I have some trouble with it, probably cos im impatient) and Utilt (for easier kills)
I know I'm the minority here but I just don't see it being good at all for D3 even with the facts laid out on both boards it just seems silly to me.
Remastered
Smash Lord
I agree to some of each of your statements.
Also uptilt doesn't hit through GnW's down air. Ftilt is auto-canceled by blizzard and a lot of other simple moves as it only has 1 hitbox with little priority. (really only good to punish openings or on shield). Zelda has some of the best shield pokes agaist D3 and Dins fire forces awkward recovery.
I have been planked by a GnW very well, and platforms help this along hugely.
Don't get me wrong, I do understand how good D3 can be in most situations, but as Splice said, he is a character that punishes slip ups or you have to read 2 steps ahead of your opponent to do well. When characters can abuse that, that is when he suffers as a character.
Also uptilt doesn't hit through GnW's down air. Ftilt is auto-canceled by blizzard and a lot of other simple moves as it only has 1 hitbox with little priority. (really only good to punish openings or on shield). Zelda has some of the best shield pokes agaist D3 and Dins fire forces awkward recovery.
I have been planked by a GnW very well, and platforms help this along hugely.
Don't get me wrong, I do understand how good D3 can be in most situations, but as Splice said, he is a character that punishes slip ups or you have to read 2 steps ahead of your opponent to do well. When characters can abuse that, that is when he suffers as a character.
Dedede's utilt beats everything above him... :S
dean.
.
I thought Blizzard was transendant for some reason :x
Yeah AD3PT, D3s Utilt actually does go through GaWs Dair, but GaW can still easily beat it if he slowfalls at the right spacing so Dair ends at an appropriate time, bait Utilt, then stutter-start or w/e its called the next Dair and it's easy.
D3 could always just walk away which is probably his best option half the time in the MU.
However I agree with you Matt in agreeing with me
D3 could always just walk away which is probably his best option half the time in the MU.
However I agree with you Matt in agreeing with me
Oh, but realistically, Dedede still has strong mixups that beat all options.
They're not the fastest, but still pushes on human reaction speed (and requires him to jump).
A character who has a rock/paper/scissors (or better) mixup will always be a good character unless they completely shut down that mix up option.
They're not the fastest, but still pushes on human reaction speed (and requires him to jump).
A character who has a rock/paper/scissors (or better) mixup will always be a good character unless they completely shut down that mix up option.
Remastered
Smash Lord
My timing must be out on the Utilt, although I know he gets an invincibility(s) frame on connection so it should be more prioritive.
(Will test thouroughly tonight)
(Will test thouroughly tonight)
idk if you are being sarcastic or not Shaya I find you really difficult to talk to/understand.
the situation is p.much always in GaWs advantage. Yes D3 has at least one mixup to beat each of GaWs options but this is almost always applicable in smash I mean if one guy always gets the read 100% of the time, I'm quite sure he would win.
This isnt unwinnable for D3 but many situations mostly to do with spacing appear to favour GaW except on the ground where D3s Ftilt shuts down GaW (but GaW never really did "ground game" that well anyway), and GaW gets more damage off a good read.
I dont understand you're post at all I went out on a limb there and that may not relate to what you meant at all, idk bro.
strong mixups that beat all options when picking the right one.
dedede can grab you inbetween the two last hits of bair, even when very well spaced.
he can powershield to utilt nearly every aerial.
he wins in range capabilities in the air.
you juggle him.
plank him (pretty well, mind you)
dedede can grab you inbetween the two last hits of bair, even when very well spaced.
he can powershield to utilt nearly every aerial.
he wins in range capabilities in the air.
you juggle him.
plank him (pretty well, mind you)
dean.
.
Most of this stuff is correct except I don't really see how this:
beats this:
seems like they would trade if anything. And is nair really that good for spacing? I mean you mentioned the third hit but that's out for like 1 frame if I recall correctly, and in order to hit the opponent you'd have to start it at a specific time of your short hop otherwise it'd go over them so it seems kinda risky...
I dunno I'm probably just stupid :x Billy we should friendly next time we see each other.
Edit: I thought I spoilerboxxed those pics... sorry.
Edit2: yay fixed