Ganon's Beard - General. Social. Rankings.

[TP]

Also, Mario is kind of [...] doable [...] because he's got some nasty [...] tool

Misquoting ftw.

 

[DLA]

Yeah Mario is more annoying than anything. You gotta constantly stay on your toes, especially when recovering. His tilts and uairs/bairs are frustrating too. Most of Boss's KOs on me were gimps or edgehogs.

I also finally fought Bo X7, IL's resident Mario main. We've met a bunch of times, though we've never 1v1ed. He's a lot flashier than Boss, but I'm not sure he knew the matchup very well so I won the set.

 

[fromundaman]

Haha, too good TP.

@DLA:
Yeah, nobody really knows the Ganon MU. I mean, why would they? Who plays Ganon anyway?

I've heard Bo is good though. I want to play him sometime.

 

[PhantomX]

I don't think Ganon has any particularly terrible low tier matchup, I just think Mario and Yoshi are quite a notch harder than all the other low tiers.

 

[Sovereign]

Ugh... failure is abound. I did terrible at VG, not even making it out of pools. I got screwed, pretty bad, all my patience for each and every MU I fought flew out the window.

I did however, play M2K's MetaKnight and did not get *****. I pulled him down to 1 stock on FD, where he made terribad mistake and got Dair'd at 0% dying, and then I Dair'd him again, at the same time an aerial Shuttle Loop went off. I didn't get to play Ally, but I had fun. I played FonZ, and we go about even in Ganon dittos.

All in all, I enjoyed everything.

 

[B!squick]

I think we need a thread called, "The Hall of Beards". I of course would humbly submit myself for a place in it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganon vs Samus is like 8/2 Samus's favor. Like even if you can powershield her projectiles, her superior tilts, Z-air, F-air, and edgeguarding are just too much for Ganon to deal with, and she is retardedly hard to kill.

I know the Ganon vs Mario matchup REALLY well. It's nowhere nearly as hard as Samus...although terrible lol. You can outrange and outprioritize Mario on a few moves. Of course the matchup instantly becomes nasty when he gets in range where he completely ***** Ganon, plus whiffing against him is out of the question when his massive F-smash punishes like anything. And getting cape/fireball/N-air gimped isn't fun either. Ganon sadly also can't really do anything in close range to Mario if Mario wants to repeatedly Jab cancel.

 

[thexsunrosered]

DLA, I just didn't have much to say, since I don't really know how Western MW plays. Good **** vs all the big named players though.

Also, Mario is kind of tough for Ganon, but doable. (By which I mean Fonz wrecks me XD)
You just have to keep him out, because once he gets in, he's doing a lot of damage. Also, be careful recovering, because he's got some nasty gimping tools.

you forgot about our sets I guess lol

 

[adumbrodeus]

I read how you did, and it's neat, I just didn't comment on it

Mario is a troublesome character for me as well. IMO the hardest low tier matchup for us.

DLA, I just didn't have much to say, since I don't really know how Western MW plays. Good **** vs all the big named players though.

Also, Mario is kind of tough for Ganon, but doable. (By which I mean Fonz wrecks me XD)
You just have to keep him out, because once he gets in, he's doing a lot of damage. Also, be careful recovering, because he's got some nasty gimping tools.

Yeah Mario is more annoying than anything. You gotta constantly stay on your toes, especially when recovering. His tilts and uairs/bairs are frustrating too. Most of Boss's KOs on me were gimps or edgehogs.

I also finally fought Bo X7, IL's resident Mario main. We've met a bunch of times, though we've never 1v1ed. He's a lot flashier than Boss, but I'm not sure he knew the matchup very well so I won the set.

You guys don't know the half of it, the reality is mario is insanely bad for Ganondorf.


The reason is because pretty much every time we grab the ledge if mario is near it it's a guarenteed gimp.

I see that someone hasn't visited the Puff board in the last year or so.

Yes, I have.

Zelda boards are insane.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9627287&postcount=2457... posted it a few pages back.

I don't really care if you guys want to know how I did... I guess it would just be nice to know that I'm giving fellow Ganon mainers a glimmer of hope lol.

Good **** DLA, VA/MD area right?


Sorry you got bracket-screwed but maddd good placing for a AN tournament. Also, boss *****.



QUOTE=A2ZOMG;9626526]Marth's F-tilt was used as a comparison due to the massive range it has (it's virtually safe when tippered). Samus's F-tilt like DK's F-tilt is a virtually safe move due to the massive range.[/quote]

Marth's ftilt is safe against Ganondorf... and that's pretty much it, and that's only because of shield pushback. Tippered it's -27.

Marth's ftilt is usually not a safe on block move.

Samus's Jab is a fast move with good range that is VERY good at getting you off her face if you know that it just needs to be avoided at low percents.

Again, so?

She could have the best jab in the world, but her lack of a legit grab, and only one substitute option (dtilt) means she's got a horrible boxing game.

Charge shot is not laggy lmao. Beating missiles with priority is very unsafe and can leave you in a position to be Z-aired or grabbed.

You and I must have different definitions of laggy, but it's definately punishable on reaction when close enough. Jump over -> punish.

Either way, Z-air is extremely difficult to observe and you can't powershield it on reaction. The animation on the move is not telegraphed enough for a player to react to it at long range.

I powershield it all the time, the animation is quite easy to see when you know what you're looking for. It's a matter of skill and MU experience.

I think you're really underestimating Bombs. When she lays a bomb, it becomes UNFAVORABLE to approach and pressure her. If it explodes in your face, she probably gets a combo, and it essentially forces you to move away or shield if you're in close range but are not able to punish her.

Not if you're spacing properly or outprioritize the things.

Plus, if all else fails, they can be powershielded on reaction.

SDIing it is good, but really hard on stage if she deliberately hits you with it late. And it's safe on block.

If she hits you with it late you should already be SDI'ing, plus it's got like no range.

Dash attack is a VERY good combo starter that is hard to punish on reaction and sets up into almost anything.

This is brawl, there are no combos (exaggeration, but generally correct). Yes, it creates a good set-up, but her pressure in that positions is almost nill.

The move alone is in fact powershieldable on reaction, but a good Samus forces you to be inherently defensive with Bombs/Z-air, and if she calls a dodge or commitment to most ground moves, ****.

Except everyone above her has better ways to do both more reliably, and both zair and bombs are powershieldable on reaction anyway.

But you anti-air with it, and besides that, it's a virtually safe move.

Anti-airs require extreme speed or invincibility frames, and hitboxes well above your hurtbox.

If you try to anti-air with it, I'll hit you first or airdodge on reaction and punish.

Samus is quite agile in the air, and her aerials don't have much ending lag, and a few of them have pretty gdlk priority. She has projectiles as well.

Fair lasts forever, so does nair. Both have relatively small hitboxes. Her projectiles are linear and laggy.

Except Samus has several virtually safe moves that hit befored reaction time, quite a few ways to force defensive reactions and ways to follow up on them.

Except she really doesn't, and what she has is very situational, and if predicted, become useless because her mix-up game sucks.

True enough, but regardless I powershield Samus's projectiles very consistently, and I consider myself an EXTREMELY patient player when I'm playing my best. Oh she would be crap, except there is literally no safe way to react to her Z-air, which is so godly that it forces you to approach.

If zair forces you to approach, you're doing it wrong, it's like DDD's ftilt.

spaced F-tilt, U-tilt, D-air, Z-air, Missile cancel, F-air, U-air, Bombs, Samus has a LOT of stuff that is very good against defending opponents. Since you have to be on the defensive to get past Samus's camping in the first place, this allows her to get grabs rather reliably.

Answered above for all.

Statment would be true if she didn't have Z-air, but she does, so you have to approach her in most matchups since it WILL hit you due to the limits of reaction time. The only way you can powershield this move is by predicting precisely when she will use it, which is no simple task, and pretty much you're ****ed when you are in the air and the Samus is any good. Yeah if in theory you could powershield all her camping moves, she wouldn't be a threat, but you can't.

Your reaction time is either crap or you have no clue what to look for. Granted, reacting to the first hitbox of zair is only gonna happen at the top of the metagame, but at a range it's actually useful, if you know the MU not gonna happen. It's a spacer, just like DDD's ftilt.

 

[Divilenta]

So right now I'm reveling in the glory of a 2-hour delay. Sorry that it's not a snow day, but at least I get to listen to some HammerFall and Sabaton before I leave for school.

 

[PhantomX]

Seriously... Samus ain't got nothing on Mario against Ganondorf.

Mario even has a safe, decent knockback GTFO out move on Ganondorf in his dsmash, which Samus doesn't. The only things we can hit Mario with when he's dsmashing are pivot grabs and dtilts, and dair I guess... it's dumb as hell.

 

[DoonKoon]

I think by Ganon you mean Ray Kalm and occasional random supporters.

Loooool dats easy to say when you dun even use Ganon in tournaments!!!

 

[PhantomX]

It's also easy to be a bad troll, as you seem to prove very aptly.

 

[Swoops]

Mario even has a safe, decent knockback GTFO out move on Ganondorf in his dsmash, which Samus doesn't. The only things we can hit Mario with when he's dsmashing are pivot grabs and dtilts, and dair I guess... it's dumb as hell.

Well, the second hit can only be punished with tilts and DA. The first hit however can theoretically be punished by d-smash, d-air, tilts, DA, and Gerudo. But yea, during the d-smash just try to get over it with a stomp before it comes out and risk getting hit withan aerial, or u-tilt I suppose. But it's definitely not safe...I've noticed a lot of moves aren't as safe as they seem.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I didn't forget about this:



An Olimar player is not going to be forced to do anything because Ganondorf has nothing that can pose as a threat that can't be reacted to.

I don't see how this helped your argument at all, this concept is also true for Rob or anyone else. You're obviously going to have to add a bit of mindgaming to force anyone to do something.

Using Adumbrodeus' 8-frame reaction time threshold that the top of the metagame (supposedly) has, the only move on the ground that is faster than reaction time is his grab, which has LOL range. Ganondorf's other options that are faster than reaction time, Uair and Nair, go clean over Olimar if Ganondorf tries jumping and hitting him with a rising aerial.

Once again, you're just stating facts about Ganon in general.

UAir and BAir are slower than reaction time when done on the ground. You shouldn't be using them when they won't hit in the first place.

That means that unless Ganondorf is literally right next to Olimar, he can't do anything that the Olimar player can't react to.

Yes. His moves can be reacted by Olimar, Rob, and the rest of the cast.

Also, good luck shieldgrabbing a completely disjointed F-smash, which has more range than Ganon's grab.

I can say the exact same thing to you. "Good luck punishing Rob's completely disjointed FSmash." You're just stating random facts out of your ***.

Ganon was never a quick punisher anyways. - You're not suppose to be punishing moves you can't.

The Olimar player isn't going to be mindgamed once he knows that he can beat everything Ganon can do on reaction. If Ganondorf is trying to mindgame Olimar, Olimar can just retreat, keeping all of his options open while outrunning Ganon's walk because Ganondorf is slow (I'm not counting dashing because starting a dash makes Ganondorf incapable of shielding for a little bit, which Olimar can abuse).

Same stuff I said above. There isn't a character that can't react to Ganon.

Olimar can't 'always' retreat because there won't be a place to always retreat to. Ganon has ways to avoid Olimar's moves up close, these are threatening enough for Olimar to CQC with you.

I'm abstaning from this one until I can physically test this out. I'll check whether ROB can follow up a power-shielded B-air with a move that can hit Ganon due to the auto-spacing. My reasoning was that ROB would be too far away from being able to hit Ganon, making the positional advantage neutral.

I don't remember saying Rob could follow up with anything after a BAir. What I said was, Rob will be able to strike (after a auto spaced BAir) again before Ganon has time to react. So, not only does this give him a advantage in frames, it also puts Ganon in vulnerable position again.

ROB's Nair hits on frame 18 and ends on frame 47. Ganondorf will have plenty of time to punish that, especially from powershield.

Your lack of knowledge on certain aspects of this game astounds me. If the Rob spaces NAir, Ganon won't be able to punish accordingly.

ROB can only follow up on a glidetossed gyro. Laser and gyro release has too much cooldown for ROB to follow up on them.

So, he can follow-up indeed.

Shielding and/or dodging does not make hitting the other character harder if it allows you to circumvent the opponent's far-range combat with minimal effort and if the opponent cannot punish you for using the shield/dodge.

It limits you. This then makes it harder to hit the opponent.

Lasers coming out of ROB's Bair. Awesome.

Seriously, though, I'm only going to be focusing on ROB's moves that actually cause a threat to Ganondorf. How Ganondorf deals with those moves is what's going to determine the matchup, not any of the other stuff.

Talked about this above.

Not exactly sure what you mean by this, but I assume you take idling as not moving? This needs to be clarified better before I can respond.

You were saying how "You don't have to move at all to shield a gyro", I countered it with "If you remain idle, you'll still be vulnerable to lasers".

 

[A2ZOMG]

Marth's ftilt is safe against Ganondorf... and that's pretty much it, and that's only because of shield pushback. Tippered it's -27.

Marth's ftilt is usually not a safe on block move.

Considering how far your opponent will be when you space Samus's F-tilt, there really aren't too many characters that are going to be punishing that consistently.

She could have the best jab in the world, but her lack of a legit grab, and only one substitute option (dtilt) means she's got a horrible boxing game.

Her grab alone is horrible, but she's a character that forces you to shield and gives you a reason not to spotdodge with projectile traps and the threat of D-air combos. She can get grabs just fine, and for stuff that should be shieldgrabbed, she also has Up-B out of shield.

You and I must have different definitions of laggy, but it's definately punishable on reaction when close enough. Jump over -> punish.

Lol since when do you just jump over charge shot at point blank range? If you airdodge it offstage you are not safe either and probably are open for a followup.

Not if you're spacing properly or outprioritize the things.

Plus, if all else fails, they can be powershielded on reaction.

Spacing properly from Bombs = being out of range or jumping in range to be Z-aired. If you're somehow in range to punish when she used Bombs, you're probably Wario, or she just plain messed up.

Outprioritizing Bombs = being open to be grabbed.

This is brawl, there are no combos (exaggeration, but generally correct). Yes, it creates a good set-up, but her pressure in that positions is almost nill.

With a long ranged grab that can get any airdodge to the ground, and several low lag aerials that can bait the airdodge just as well, seriously?

Except everyone above her has better ways to do both more reliably, and both zair and bombs are powershieldable on reaction anyway.

And...who is above her for that matter?

idk what you are doing trying to powershield bombs on reaction. And I still don't see how people are powershielding Z-air consistently feasibly, but you should go help me argue why Ike is bottom tier garbage when like 70% of his entire moveset is slower than Samus's Z-air (and is infinitely less safe).

Anti-airs require extreme speed or invincibility frames, and hitboxes well above your hurtbox.

If you try to anti-air with it, I'll hit you first or airdodge on reaction and punish.

No they don't. They need to just be massive enough to cover the necessary area on reaction. Bowser's F-tilt doesn't have extreme speed but is a very good anti-air.

If Samus's U-tilt works like Falcon's, the actual startup is around 6-8 frames, when she raises her leg. But besides that, it has range similar to, if not more massive than Snake's U-tilt.

Airdodging it is not particularly reliable. It has really good IASA frames.

Fair lasts forever, so does nair. Both have relatively small hitboxes. Her projectiles are linear and laggy.

F-air lasts long, but N-air actually is pretty low commitment. And if you are a respectable player that DIs, her relatively low lag projectiles will force a punishable reaction or you will get hit by them.

Except she really doesn't, and what she has is very situational, and if predicted, become useless because her mix-up game sucks.

And what she has either has massive range or is really low lag and forces a defensive reaction in a position where spotdodging is usually not safe.

If zair forces you to approach, you're doing it wrong, it's like DDD's ftilt.

DDD only has one laggy projectile to pressure with in addition to his F-tilt/grab, while Samus has quite a few low lag projectiles that can be followed up one after the other in succession.

Your reaction time is either crap or you have no clue what to look for. Granted, reacting to the first hitbox of zair is only gonna happen at the top of the metagame, but at a range it's actually useful, if you know the MU not gonna happen. It's a spacer, just like DDD's ftilt.

Admittedly my reaction time is not very good, if I'm extremely focused I have only been able to get it down to 14 frames at best from what I've tested (which is M2K's average reaction time). You're not however powershielding Z-air if she knows when to mix it in to add to the pressure of missile canceling. Sure powershielding the missile is easy. Powershielding the Z-air that might hit immediately after? Seriously?

 

[adumbrodeus]

double post....

 

[adumbrodeus]

Considering how far your opponent will be when you space Samus's F-tilt, there really aren't too many characters that are going to be punishing that consistently.

No, just the ones that actually matter. Seriously, if it's safe on shield, frame data it (include frame advantage).

But you also gotta remember it's a very slim hitbox, so just jumping over it in the proper area works and Samus doesn't exactly have good coverage there so it beats a lot of her options.

Her grab alone is horrible, but she's a character that forces you to shield and gives you a reason not to spotdodge with projectile traps and the threat of D-air combos. She can get grabs just fine, and for stuff that should be shieldgrabbed, she also has Up-B out of shield.

Do it on reaction. Unless you combo into somehow, or it's a punish, samus should not grab you.


Up-b can easily be out-spaced or SDI'd, both give great punishment.

Lol since when do you just jump over charge shot at point blank range? If you airdodge it offstage you are not safe either and probably are open for a followup.

Fully charged, no.

But you can't spam fully charged, lesser variations have smaller hitboxes and I have no problem jumping over and punishing.

Spacing properly from Bombs = being out of range or jumping in range to be Z-aired. If you're somehow in range to punish when she used Bombs, you're probably Wario, or she just plain messed up.

Or, you know, have good range like most characters that matter. Or are jiggs.

Outprioritizing Bombs = being open to be grabbed.

I think you misunderstood, I meant hitting the bomb's hitbox AND you. Aka, punishing you for using it.

With a long ranged grab that can get any airdodge to the ground, and several low lag aerials that can bait the airdodge just as well, seriously?

Pretty much everyone can do that. Sadly most characters have better options in that position against Samus then samus does.

And...who is above her for that matter?

Check current tier list.

Everyone is an exaggeration, but you get my point.

idk what you are doing trying to powershield bombs on reaction. And I still don't see how people are powershielding Z-air consistently feasibly, but you should go help me argue why Ike is bottom tier garbage when like 70% of his entire moveset is slower than Samus's Z-air (and is infinitely less safe).

Ike is a bad character, but his jab is probably better then Samus' entire moveset.

No they don't. They need to just be massive enough to cover the necessary area on reaction. Bowser's F-tilt doesn't have extreme speed but is a very good anti-air.

You're thinking in terms of "attacks air" not "anti-air". Yes, it pressures the air, but for anti-airs to be... anti-airs they have to reliably beat aerial attacks and that requires certain properties.

Uptilt can pressure air, but it doesn't really beat aerial options, it lacks the speed and the properties.

If Samus's U-tilt works like Falcon's, the actual startup is 6 frames, when she raises her leg. But besides that, it has range similar to, if not more massive than Snake's U-tilt.

That's a big "if", but it's not a useful location.

Airdodging it is not particularly reliable. It has really good IASA frames.

And... where's the frame data for this move?

F-air lasts long, but N-air actually is pretty low commitment. And if you are a respectable player that DIs, her relatively low lag projectiles will force a punishable reaction or you will get hit by them.

It lasts too long.

Her projectiles are easy to beat and leave her vulnerable.

And what she has either has massive range or is really low lag and forces a defensive reaction in a position where spotdodging is usually not safe.

I think you're confusing her for a different character.

DDD only has one laggy projectile to pressure with in addition to his F-tilt/grab, while Samus has quite a few low lag projectiles that can be followed up one after the other in succession.

I was just comparing that one move. DDD as a character is losing his luster, his projectile is a wall against other projectiles, not a projectile.

Admittedly my reaction time is not very good, if I'm extremely focused I have only been able to get it down to 14 frames at best from what I've tested (which is M2K's average reaction time). You're not however powershielding Z-air if she knows when to mix it in to add to the pressure of missile canceling. Sure powershielding the missile is easy. Powershielding the Z-air that might hit immediately after? Seriously?

...


No wonder you're losing to Samus, your reaction time sucks. Mine is 10 frames, and don't give me that BS about M2k, it improves with MU experience because you notice opening frames and the like. Comparing his average (which is presumably first time in an MU) against your best and saying they're the same, so it's cool is like taking Michael Bolt's time if he broke his leg, comparing it to your time and saying, "yea, they're the same, so I'm good enough".


No, it's not, the metagame totally changes with different reaction times, and your bad reaction time is a major part of the reason why you view this abysmal character as better then she actually is.






Final Word: Who does she beat? Good attributes are just sophism unless she actually beats characters currently above her.

 

[PhantomX]

Actually, M2K himself has said he's not very good at reaction, which is why he excels at pre-emption.

 

[Sovereign]

maybe I Should Just Stop Posting About The Big Tournaments I Do Well At With Ganon If Everyone's Just Going To Ignore It. Keep Bickering About Whether Or Not It's Mathematically Possible To Gimp Samus, Or Whatever Pointless Thing It Was.

If No One Actually Cares Then I'll Stop Boring You.

Qft

10qft

 

[fromundaman]

you forgot about our sets I guess lol

Haha, no I didn't. I didn't say it was undoable, because you and Fonz have both ***** me enough times for me to know that it's definitely not impossible.
To be fair though, you were just plain better than me.



I didn't read that whole wall of text, but Ambrodeus, is this:

You guys don't know the half of it, the reality is mario is insanely bad for Ganondorf.


The reason is because pretty much every time we grab the ledge if mario is near it it's a guarenteed gimp.

refering to the cape teleport? If it is, then don't even bring that up, since NO Mario main can get that even close to consistently. In fact, to my knowledge, it hasn't even been tested on all characters still...

I mean, yeah it exists, but until Marios startn actually using it, then it's the same as saying that as soon as Ganon lands a choke, you're being 0-deathed. I mean, it can happen, but it probably won't.
(Though Marios do need to start practicing that... that would single-handedly move us into high mid tier if we could do it consistently.)

 

[adumbrodeus]

refering to the cape teleport? If it is, then don't even bring that up, since NO Mario main can get that even close to consistently. In fact, to my knowledge, it hasn't even been tested on all characters still...

I mean, yeah it exists, but until Marios startn actually using it, then it's the same as saying that as soon as Ganon lands a choke, you're being 0-deathed. I mean, it can happen, but it probably won't.
(Though Marios do need to start practicing that... that would single-handedly move us into high mid tier if we could do it consistently.)

Have you not seen me trolling the mario boards saying that you're all lazy as hell for not getting that potentially game-changing move down?


Regardless, that was a "this is what it really is, and you're mad lucky nobody does it properly" post.

You know, a "soil your draws" horror story type thing.


As far as chainchoking, we still don't know if it really works honestly, we've never done the frame data on it.

 

[Kitamerby]

Actually, M2K himself has said he's not very good at reaction, which is why he excels at pre-emption.

You sure that was M2K? I thought Azen was the guy who said that.

Maybe I'm wrong and they both said it. :\

 

[Bloodynite]

wonder where i could be on this...

 

[fromundaman]

Have you not seen me trolling the mario boards saying that you're all lazy as hell for not getting that potentially game-changing move down?


Regardless, that was a "this is what it really is, and you're mad lucky nobody does it properly" post.

You know, a "soil your draws" horror story type thing.

Yeah I've seen it, and I agree. It kind of seems like what Shieks did for a while with Chain Jacketing.

I just wish I could find someone willing to help me get it down

 

[Clai]

Once again, you're just stating facts about Ganon in general.

Facts are a lot better than opinions when it comes to forming arguments.

UAir and BAir are slower than reaction time when done on the ground. You shouldn't be using them when they won't hit in the first place.

You can't add together the jump frames and the Uair/Bair frames and say that the moves are slower than reaction. Ganondorf doesn't have to commit to Uair or Bair by jumping. Therefore, if a player watches Ganondorf start his jump, he can only anticipate what Ganondorf is going to do because the actual moves themselves are faster than reaction.

Forcing a player to anticipate a move >>>> Throwing out moves a player can react to.

Yes. His moves can be reacted by Olimar, Rob, and the rest of the cast.

Being able to actually hit ROB/other tall characters with a rising Uair/Bair (which the player can only anticipate because Ganondorf doesn't have to commit to them by jumping) is a huge boon for Ganondorf.

It's definately a lot tougher when it comes to fighting short characters because Ganondorf loses this benefit, but no other character has the range, disjointedness, and overall camping ability that Olimar has when it comes to fighting him with Ganondorf.

Most characters would benefit much more from getting inside Ganondorf and molesting him in close-range combat because Ganon's close-range combat ability is beyond garbage.

I can say the exact same thing to you. "Good luck punishing Rob's completely disjointed FSmash." You're just stating random facts out of your ***.

My statement was a direct response to this statement:

When you land on the ground, just near Olimar's grab reach, Olimar wouldn't want to be doing anything but grab. Retreating to throw Pikmins will get him punished, anything else can be shield grabbed

Seriously... think before you state things.

Same stuff I said above. There isn't a character that can't react to Ganon.

In addition to what I said above, playing campy, defensively, and using reaction isn't most characters' optimal strategy when fighting Ganon.

Olimar can't 'always' retreat because there won't be a place to always retreat to. Ganon has ways to avoid Olimar's moves up close, these are threatening enough for Olimar to CQC with you.

If an Olimar player doesn't have a place to retreat at all times, he's doing a pretty terrible job at controlling the stage, especially since all he needs to do is punish one of Ganondorf's attempts to approach him before he can run to whichever area of the stage he pleases.

I don't remember saying Rob could follow up with anything after a BAir.

->

Your in position for FTilt, which you'll also have to shield. You basically go back to where you started again.

I have tested this, and as I've said from the beginning, ROB's Bair sends him too far away for it to be in range to hit Ganondorf with anything. Neither character is in range to hit the other with an attack. The position battle is neutral.

What I said was, Rob will be able to strike (after a auto spaced BAir) again before Ganon has time to react. So, not only does this give him a advantage in frames, it also puts Ganon in vulnerable position again.

Except ROB's B-air sends it too far away for it to strike Ganon again. Ganondorf is in the exact same position as if ROB didn't use B-air.

Your lack of knowledge on certain aspects of this game astounds me. If the Rob spaces NAir, Ganon won't be able to punish accordingly.

It's not wise to insult me when you have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about.

A move is only useful for defeating approaches if the move actually poses a threat that can effectively limit Ganondorf's approach options. Ganondorf can approach any way he wants as long as he has 18 frames that he can use so that he can react to Nair before the hitbox comes out, and there are a number of options that he can use. Ganondorf can always react to ROB's Nair and select his option depending on the scenario (stage positioning, horizontal and vertical spacing, etc).

So, he can follow-up indeed.

ROB holding a projectile is going to be fought differently from ROB without a projectile. Yes ROB can follow up when he's holding a gyro, so then you have to approach ROB differently. ROB's not going to be holding on to the gyro often, though, so more often than not, ROB will not be able to follow up with his projectiles (meaning laser and gyro release)

It limits you. This then makes it harder to hit the opponent.

But the other character can't do anything to exploit this limitation. So what if Ganondorf is forced to use an avoidance option if the opponent can't do anything about it? Once the avoidance option has been used, Ganondorf regains the rest of his options and proceeds to approach as usual.

Only the moves that actually threaten Ganondorf are going to make it harder to hit the opponent, because if you keep your avoidance options open, you will be able to neutralize ROB's far-range options 100% of the time.

You were saying how "You don't have to move at all to shield a gyro", I countered it with "If you remain idle, you'll still be vulnerable to lasers".

You're not vulnerable to lasers because lasers don't pose a threat to Ganondorf. You will be able to react to lasers, regardless of what ROB is doing beforehand, because the move is too slow to hit you before you can react to it.

Good job in your tournament, DLA. Do you have vidjos?

 

[DLA]

I haven't seen any vids pop up yet, but there may be some DLA footage out there. Not sure yet.



Anyhoo, I came up with an idea while I was at ASC.

In addition to my sombrero (which I wear just because it kicks ***), I'm going to wear sunglasses to every tournament.

Why, you ask?

So no one will see me if I watch my opponent's controller after a flame choke.

0 to death flame chokes? Hell yes.

Discuss.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Facts are a lot better than opinions when it comes to forming arguments.

Not when those facts allow me to use them against themselves.

You can't add together the jump frames and the Uair/Bair frames and say that the moves are slower than reaction. Ganondorf doesn't have to commit to Uair or Bair by jumping. Therefore, if a player watches Ganondorf start his jump, he can only anticipate what Ganondorf is going to do because the actual moves themselves are faster than reaction.

Yes, that is why I said from "the ground".

Forcing a player to anticipate a move >>>> Throwing out moves a player can react to.

True enough.

Being able to actually hit ROB/other tall characters with a rising Uair/Bair (which the player can only anticipate because Ganondorf doesn't have to commit to them by jumping) is a huge boon for Ganondorf.

I haven't denied this.

It's definately a lot tougher when it comes to fighting short characters because Ganondorf loses this benefit, but no other character has the range, disjointedness, and overall camping ability that Olimar has when it comes to fighting him with Ganondorf.

Can you elaborate more on this?

Rob is tougher, if not as tough as Olimar in this regard. It's much harder for Ganon to deal with Rob's projectiles. You may suffer more damage from Olimar's projectiles, but damage is what counts LEAST when it comes to being able to approach.

Most characters would benefit much more from getting inside Ganondorf and molesting him in close-range combat because Ganon's close-range combat ability is beyond garbage.

This is true, but neither of the characters we're discussing need to choose CQC over camping.

My statement was a direct response to this statement:



Seriously... think before you state things.

Well, I didn't think you'd be stupid enough to talk about another move after I said "out of grab reach".

In addition to what I said above, playing campy, defensively, and using reaction isn't most characters' optimal strategy when fighting Ganon.

It should be, it's possible. This is usually why people lose to Ganon, if more people started playing as campy as Olimar, they'd never lose.

If an Olimar player doesn't have a place to retreat at all times, he's doing a pretty terrible job at controlling the stage, especially since all he needs to do is punish one of Ganondorf's attempts to approach him before he can run to whichever area of the stage he pleases.

As what I said before, Ganon has the ability to dodge all those attempts, thus Olimar can't camp the entire match.

I have tested this, and as I've said from the beginning, ROB's Bair sends him too far away for it to be in range to hit Ganondorf with anything. Neither character is in range to hit the other with an attack. The position battle is neutral.

Except ROB's B-air sends it too far away for it to strike Ganon again. Ganondorf is in the exact same position as if ROB didn't use B-air.

Each time the position is reset, Ganon will be in more of a vulnerable position than Rob, and not just to it's projectiles, but to another BAir that can repeat the process.

It's not wise to insult me when you have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about.

A move is only useful for defeating approaches if the move actually poses a threat that can effectively limit Ganondorf's approach options. Ganondorf can approach any way he wants as long as he has 18 frames that he can use so that he can react to Nair before the hitbox comes out, and there are a number of options that he can use. Ganondorf can always react to ROB's Nair and select his option depending on the scenario (stage positioning, horizontal and vertical spacing, etc).

Oh, I knew what you were talking about. Ganondorf will never be able to punish Rob's properly spaced NAir because of it's unique hitbox and spacing. Rob can roll in and out with NAir anticipating what Ganon will and will not do, and acting accordingly, this will also keep it safe. When the Rob rolls back with NAir, Ganon has no choice but to make a move to keep himself safe, and, if this move is a approach, it can be beaten by BAir, so Rob's retreating NAir at this point WILL make Ganon vulnerable.

ROB holding a projectile is going to be fought differently from ROB without a projectile. Yes ROB can follow up when he's holding a gyro, so then you have to approach ROB differently. ROB's not going to be holding on to the gyro often, though, so more often than not, ROB will not be able to follow up with his projectiles (meaning laser and gyro release)

Approaching differently is no excuse for being more limited.

But the other character can't do anything to exploit this limitation. So what if Ganondorf is forced to use an avoidance option if the opponent can't do anything about it? Once the avoidance option has been used, Ganondorf regains the rest of his options and proceeds to approach as usual.

Do the avoidance option force him to do something? Force him to slow down? Yes, they do. This limits him.

Only the moves that actually threaten Ganondorf are going to make it harder to hit the opponent, because if you keep your avoidance options open, you will be able to neutralize ROB's far-range options 100% of the time.

When one is hit and stopped in their tracks they aren't neutralized.

You're not vulnerable to lasers because lasers don't pose a threat to Ganondorf. You will be able to react to lasers, regardless of what ROB is doing beforehand, because the move is too slow to hit you before you can react to it.

Lasers do pose a threat. They pose the threat of forcing you do something.

 

[PhantomX]

DLA, there's no rule against watching people's controllers.

 

[Divilenta]

DLA, there's no rule against watching people's controllers.

No, but people don't exactly like it if they know that you're watching.

 

[Swoops]

I haven't seen any vids pop up yet, but there may be some DLA footage out there. Not sure yet.



Anyhoo, I came up with an idea while I was at ASC.

In addition to my sombrero (which I wear just because it kicks ***), I'm going to wear sunglasses to every tournament.

Why, you ask?

So no one will see me if I watch my opponent's controller after a flame choke.

0 to death flame chokes? Hell yes.

Discuss.

DLA...many won't pay attention to you due to their own ridiculous nonsensical bickering.

Phantom is correct though. No rule against it. Get a flame choke and put on yo pa-pa-pa-pa-pa poker face.

 

[fromundaman]

I've thought of doing that before, but, for me at least, looking away from the match distracts me too much.

 

[Noobicidal]

Assuming that the venue isn't too loud, I just listen to the opponent's controller. Left and right sound distinctly different to me, and button mashing sounds completely different as well.

 

[Clai]

Not when those facts allow me to use them against themselves.

Facts are undisputable truths which cannot be challenged. You or I cannot challenge when a certain move comes out, how much range it has, etc. You may be able to use my own facts against me, but they are still infinitely better than opinions, because if we ever reach a truth stemming from these facts, they are based on irrefutable evidence.

Yes, that is why I said from "the ground".

Doesn't make your statement any less wrong.

If Ganondorf decides to jump, he has all of his aerial options available to him. He isn't forced to use Uair or Bair immediately after he jumps, he can use those options any time he wants.
Your opponent cannot possibly shield a rising Uair or Bair on reaction because he cannot be sure that Ganondorf is going to use Uair or Bair after he jumps; he has to anticipate that Ganondorf is going to use Uair or Bair and react based on his guess.

Can you elaborate more on this?

Rob is tougher, if not as tough as Olimar in this regard. It's much harder for Ganon to deal with Rob's projectiles. You may suffer more damage from Olimar's projectiles, but damage is what counts LEAST when it comes to being able to approach.

I'm saying that when it comes to playing defensively and camping, Olimar is the only character that has the tools to beat all of Ganondorf's approach options 100% of the time. The disjointedness of Olimar's Usmash beats all of Ganondorf's aerial options, his pivot grab and shield camping beat all of his grounded approach options, and Ganondorf's mid-range game and sense of spacing are completely destroyed by Olimar's disjoints and small size. No other character can boast this ability.

This is true, but neither of the characters we're discussing need to choose CQC over camping.

I was referring to 'the rest of the cast'

Well, I didn't think you'd be stupid enough to talk about another move after I said "out of grab reach".

Because you apparently didn't get this the first time, I'm going to quote exactly what you said again:

When you land on the ground, just near Olimar's grab reach, Olimar wouldn't want to be doing anything but grab. Retreating to throw Pikmins will get him punished, anything else can be shield grabbed.

Nothing in this sentence refers to 'out of grab reach.' The space you're talking about is the space at the limit of Olimar's grab range. Olimar's F-smash has the same range as his grab, so when Ganon lands on the ground, just near Olimar's grab reach, you're implying that the only option Olimar has at this range is to attempt a grab, but he can throw out a F-smash instead, and good luck shieldgrabbing that, since Olimar's grab range >>>>>> Ganondorf's.

Again. Seriously.

It should be, it's possible. This is usually why people lose to Ganon, if more people started playing as campy as Olimar, they'd never lose.

Characters that try to play the exact way as Olimar would just be an inferior Olimar. They don't have the range or disjointedness that Olimar has. Besides, for some characters, it's superior to just get inside close-combat range and just beat Ganon senselessly, since their close-range combat abilities are a lot better than their mid-range combat abilities where spacing and challenging approaches come into play.

As what I said before, Ganon has the ability to dodge all those attempts, thus Olimar can't camp the entire match.

At some point, Ganondorf has to, well, try and hit Olimar, and Olimar's mid-range options don't just challenge Ganondorf's mid-range options, they outright dominate Ganon's.

Each time the position is reset, Ganon will be in more of a vulnerable position than Rob, and not just to it's projectiles, but to another BAir that can repeat the process.

Each time the position is reset, both characters are in the exact same position as before. That's what resetting the position means! No one is in more of a vulnerable position than the other, because what's what a positional disadvantage means.

Oh, I knew what you were talking about. Ganondorf will never be able to punish Rob's properly spaced NAir because of it's unique hitbox and spacing. Rob can roll in and out with NAir anticipating what Ganon will and will not do, and acting accordingly, this will also keep it safe. When the Rob rolls back with NAir, Ganon has no choice but to make a move to keep himself safe, and, if this move is a approach, it can be beaten by BAir, so Rob's retreating NAir at this point WILL make Ganon vulnerable.

I need to test out ROB's Nair before I make any further comments, there are simply too many scenarios that I can think of when it comes to this move for me to say anything with certainty. I'm just going to hold off on this for now.

Approaching differently is no excuse for being more limited.

If this were a truly impossible matchup, then Ganondorf wouldn't have any options at all. Being limited in his options means that he still has options, they're just different if ROB has a projectile compared to if ROB doesn't have a projectile.

Do the avoidance option force him to do something? Force him to slow down? Yes, they do. This limits him.

So what if Ganondorf is forced to perform an action if the opponent can't benefit from being able to force that action by punishing it in some way? Who cares if the ROB player knows that you're going to powershield his laser if he can't do anything to punish you for powershielding his laser? As long as Ganondorf's options are viable and don't leave him open for punishment, it doesn't matter how limited his options are.

When one is hit and stopped in their tracks they aren't neutralized.

Pretty much explained above.

Lasers do pose a threat. They pose the threat of forcing you do something.

But ROB can't punish me for using the option it's forcing me to use. I can powershield the lasers, I can spotdodge the lasers, I can airdodge the lasers, I can jump over the lasers. If I can ensure that I can do one of these options and ROB can't do anything about it, lasers are not a threat.

 

[PhantomX]

ROB's nair really isn't very good at all, I don't know why you're still stuck on that move, Ray. Bair and fair + ROB's tilts are MUCH more annoying for Ganondorf than his nair is.

ROBs nair is slow enough to where, if you are both airborne and within reach of each other, if he tries to start it, he will never be able to beat Ganon's upair/nair/bair. His airspeed is also pretty subpar, meaning we can keep up with him. Additionally, if he nairs your shield, you have enough time to jab him (a punish is a punish for us), and you have even more options should you powershield it (again, easy b/c it is slow). Really, if you're going to be hellbent on choosing a move of ROB's that's to shut us down, pick a better one.

 

[DLA]

Yeah I know there's no rule against it. But if someone sees you looking at their controller, then they'll probably hide their controller for the rest of the match. Not to mention tell everyone else to hide their controllers.

Also, I've got some sexy shades that I'm looking for an excuse to wear more often XD

 

[PhantomX]

Wear them when "staking out" nubile young women to whom you will spread your manly seed.

 

[thexsunrosered]

Wear them when "staking out" nubile young women to whom you will spread your manly seed.

lolololollllolloll
yesyesyes PX = winnnn

 

[fromundaman]

Ganon doesn't need subtlety or consent. Any and all youthful concubines are his for the taking.

 

[Superspright]

The feminist side in me cringes even in jest. :[