Ganon's Beard - General. Social. Rankings.

[Dark 3nergy]

yes but it is ganon after all. He is the heartless ******* of Smash and no one can take that away from him[im looking at you sakurai]

 

[A2ZOMG]

But Sakurai mains Ganon.

 

[PhantomX]

That's the case with most non-Ganon main Ganon users. I've only played a handful of true Ganon mains, but at least a billion Ganondorf users. Since on a linear scale, Ganon doesn't seem to have much to master, general abilities with him and good universal skills often mask the fact that while the Ganon is a great player, they are not the greatest of Ganons.

When Ganon's strongest assets are amazing damage/knockback punishes for reads/prediction, being a good player is more vital to Ganon than knowing every tiny bit of his priority-less spacing

 

[Vermanubis]

When Ganon's strongest assets are amazing damage/knockback punishes for reads/prediction, being a good player is more vital to Ganon than knowing every tiny bit of his priority-less spacing

Ostensibly, that's true. But, as I'm sure you know as well, Ganon isn't just prediction. You can't just predict and punish. You, to a degree, do have to know almost every little thing about him in order to use him to his fullest. Even if you predict a movement, 9/10 you won't be able to act on it accordingly unless you know your stuff.

As @Home stated with Vex's video, Vex demonstrated superior universal ability, but didn't demonstrate a clear understanding of what and what not to do with Ganon, which is arguably what cost him those matches.

 

[Superspright]

Yeah, I kept thinking... "WHY ISN'T HE FAST FALLING NAIR!?"

 

[@HomE]

When Ganon's strongest assets are amazing damage/knockback punishes for reads/prediction, being a good player is more vital to Ganon than knowing every tiny bit of his priority-less spacing

I agree and disagree, I'd say 51% tech skill 49% Ganon knowledge... maybe 60-40...

at this point in time, i can say with confidence that i know almost everything that there is to know about Ganon(not trying to be cocky, if anything, its a little pathetic)...

What I lack is Tech skills, I don't really play SSBB much these days and if i do, its in a very casual setting with not the best opponents. I got into melee very late in the game, never got to develop my tech skills there.

While tech skill is crucial for Ganon, knowing exactly what move to use in any situation is almost equally important. Tech skill would be used for surviving(good DI, teching hits), approaching(powershielding) ect... When you have made your way through the spam, Tech'd the hits and you are now in a position to attack. If you don't know exactly what move to use, and exactly how to execute it... you will fail with Ganon.

Its the combination of exceptional tech abilities, and a very good understanding of Ganon's moveset that make a Ganon main successful. With just one or the other, while you may have limited success, you will ultimately fail.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Why is Olimar being forced to use his grab when you land? Olimar can just put up his shield, which, combining with spotdodging if Ganon decides to use Flame Choke, beats every ground option Ganondorf has. If Ganondorf attacks, he gets shieldgrabbed (unless Ganondorf has moves that he can use on shield which can't be punished this way), if Ganondorf jumps, then Olimar can just space himself to defeat any option Ganondorf has, because Ganondorf can't hit Olimar with a rising aerial and his horizontal mobility is balls.

When you land on the ground, just near Olimar's grab reach, Olimar wouldn't want to be doing anything but grab. Retreating to throw Pikmins will get him punished, anything else can be shield grabbed. You're purposely putting yourself in a position you can be grabbed to force Olimar to stay in your range. A quick DJ allows you to avoid that grab attempt and draws Olimar near you. Since, obviously, Ganon can't punish Olimars grabs, you'll have to force out another little bait. You're in mid range now, baiting & trapping at this point should be fairly easy.

There's a big difference in the amount of hits you need on Rob and the amount of hits on Olimar before you can go for the kill. You can get a good 28% off of gerudo on Olimar, that's about 1/3rd of the percent a fresh dash attack will kill him. Olimar's also vulnerable to gimping.. Rob, not so much.

An Olimar isn't going to be mindgamed into anything because he can beat Ganondorf by doing nothing but waiting and reacting to whatever Ganondorf does.

Not true. If Olimar just waits and react then he's ASKING to be mindgamed. You can also react to something not done.

The ROB boards don't have frame advantages on shield, but since you have that data, show me the numbers. ROB's B-air starts on frame 11 and ends on frame 43 (I think it's 43, the ROB boards have conflicting numbers), so if you can prove numerically that B-air gives ROB frame advantage on shield, then that settles it.

Mistake on my part. Advantage in position was what I meant.

Otherwise, whether ROB is at a positional advantage depends on where it was compared to Ganon when it uses B-air. Are we talking about really close up, like Ganon's grab range, or at the furthest spacing of ROB's B-air. I've been assuming ROB is spacing its B-air optimally because Ganondorf never wants to get really close against ROB, or any character.

Doesn't matter how spaced the BAir was. Rob will always be at a positional advantage if the BAir was used at the proper moment, which really isn't hard to figure.

If the Ganondorf player knows that ROB he's not going to be able to hit ROB before N-air's hitbox comes out, then he's not going to challenge it. He's going to shield it and see what ROB does before attempting to hit him. ROB's N-air isn't fast enough so that ROB can use it without Ganondorf being able to react to it somehow.

Best Ganon can do is shield it. The Rob will have the 'advantage' whether it's NAir hits on shield or not.

So what if you're being forced to shield and dodge frequently? If you have enough time to react to each individual projectile, then it's assumed that you have successfully shielded/dodged every single one of them. Being forced to shield or dodge is only a bad thing if you either don't have enough time to react to the projectile, forcing you to dodge pre-emptively, or if the opposing character can follow up on his projectile and punish you for shielding/dodging. ROB can't do either.

Shielding/dodging always puts Ganon at a disadvantage, more so then other characters. If he's forced to shield dodge frequently, then it just makes an already hard to hit task harder. Also, Rob can quite definitely follow up on his projectiles.

ROB's B-air doesn't allow its projectiles to do anything. ROB's projectiles are slow enough that they can be avoided on reaction, and B-air does nothing to help that. Even if Ganon gets hit by B-air, all that happens is that the battle shifts back from close-range to far-range combat, where at the highest levels of play, no one has the advantage since Ganondorf can avoid all of ROB's projectiles on reaction.

I've just explained the disadvantage in having to avoid/shield, so I presume I won't need to again.

The main problem with BAir is, if the Rob player has even the slightest common sense, getting hit by it whether on shield or not will be the worst that can happen to you in the match thanks to how abusive it can be.

Ganon can avoid projectiles all day if he likes, but, whenever he gets close enough to approach, he will keep hitting a move he can't do anything about. That's why projectiles become even more frustrating out of BAir. Rob's retreating NAir also plays a huge roll in keeping Ganon away.

If you're far enough away, all of ROB's options when it has a gyro in its hand can be neutralized on reaction. You want to be far enough away that you can powershield a glidetossed gyro with ease without ROB being able to punish you for shielding. Also, ROB's not going to hit you with a laser because Ganondorf can avoid lasers on reaction and if you're that far away, you're not going to make any unnecessary movements that would prevent Ganon from being able to do so.

Lasers will eat shield up and struggle Ganon into moving. Ganon can't stay idle because of this. And, if you were to 'avoid' lasers, you wouldn't be idled, would you?

With a projectile, Ganondorf doesn't have to approach, because he now actually has a far-range option that he can use. With glide-tossing, Ganondorf is more mobile on the ground with a projectile than without, and that alone will help him. This doesn't even include the traps that a character can now set with a projectile in hand.

Did Rob suddenly lose his ability to laser?

As much as I want to win, the real reason I'm a competitive smasher is because it's fun, and when certain characters can use one option and beat EVERYTHING Ganon can do (Falco- lasers and running away with side-B, Sheik- F-tilt and chain, ICs- shieldgrabbing, Olimar- playing by reacting), the matchup goes from "HEY, it's a long-shot, but I will do everything I can to win this matchup," to "wow, this simply is not fun... at all." Granted, I've used Ganon for more matchups now than I ever have, but until we know of a way that Ganon can get around these options, then I'll start using him in those matchups as well, I'm not bothering, because even if I win, it's only because the opponent was doing it wrong.

I agree, but this doesn't excuse you from being extra positive about certain match-ups.

There's a difference between being manly and being a moron. If there's any hope of me winning a match-up, regardless of the odds, I'll take the odds, but I'm smart enough to know when the odds are literally zero and generally be right. Just as I'm not going to spam Warlock Punches and Volcano Kicks because I know doing so will lead to defeat, I'm not going to fight a matchup where Ganon has zero, zilch, no chance of winning.

Your signature says otherwise.

 

[Ganonsburg]

But Sakurai mains Ganon.

Which just proves how evil Ganon is.

 

[Clai]

That's the case with most non-Ganon main Ganon users. I've only played a handful of true Ganon mains, but at least a billion Ganondorf users. Since on a linear scale, Ganon doesn't seem to have much to master, general abilities with him and good universal skills often mask the fact that while the Ganon is a great player, they are not the greatest of Ganons.

Personally I would value the opinion of an elite player who dabbles with Ganon but doesn't main him than a decent player who mains Ganon. Mainly it's because the elite player knows how to win at the highest levels of play, so all he has to do is apply his knowledge to using Ganondorf and he'll generally get the idea of how to win with Ganon. The Ganon main might know more about Ganondorf as a character, but the elite player will know more about what to do/what not to do in certain situations.

If you were trying to flame me, the best you could have done was make sense out of it.

I find it hilarious that you're just presuming I talk **** about match-ups, match-ups which I purposely put myself in because I obviously don't know what I have to expect.

I also rather not take or listen to opinions from someone who barely has a clue of what they talk about. If you don't discuss match-ups because you don't like "theoryfighting" then do NOT state your opinion AT ALL. You're just like some random dude walking into conversations wanting to seek attention by speaking what has already been said.

I missed this the last time, but I have to bring this up now. Can we seriously stop with the "DON'T YOU KNOW WHO I AM" arguments? We're all completely different players from completely different regions fighting other completely different players; we're all obviously going to have different experiences fighting matchups and form different opinions abiout them. Just because my experiences/opinions differ from others' opinions, it doesn't mean that my opinion must be wrong, and your opinions aren't always right. The only truth that's in this game is the frame/hitbox/priority data, everything else is just theorycraft/speculation. I find it ridiculous that several of the top Ganon mains would rather troll Kalm than share their input on matchups because he disdains any opinion that isn't his own and shoots them down with elitism and arrogance. It's bad enough that our favorite character is a pile of ****, we can't afford to have these biting remarks bring Ganondorf down further.

 

[Sovereign]

Personally I would value the opinion of an elite player who dabbles with Ganon but doesn't main him than a decent player who mains Ganon. Mainly it's because the elite player knows how to win at the highest levels of play, so all he has to do is apply his knowledge to using Ganondorf and he'll generally get the idea of how to win with Ganon. The Ganon main might know more about Ganondorf as a character, but the elite player will know more about what to do/what not to do in certain situations.

Those certain situations change according to the character, and therefore I would rather listen to a decent Ganondorf main, over an "elite" player, since that "elite" player probably/most likely doesn't study Ganondorf like the decent player, nor would they know how to use Ganondorf as well as the decent Ganondorf main, nor would they know the MUs.

 

[Clai]

Those certain situations change according to the character, and therefore I would rather listen to a decent Ganondorf main, over an "elite" player, since that "elite" player probably/most likely doesn't study Ganondorf like the decent player, nor would they know how to use Ganondorf as well as the decent Ganondorf main, nor would they know the MUs.

What I meant in regards to that is that the 'elite' player likely knows how to respond to other characters' moves extremely well, and he probably knows how to do that better with his main than the Ganon main does with Ganondorf. Therefore, when it comes to using Ganondorf against a certain character, he can easily insert whatever move fits the situation and defeat the matchup, even if it's a move that other people don't generally use.

It's more of a 'natural knowledge' vs 'acquired knowledge' argument. The person with the acquired knowledge may have studied Ganondorf more, but he may not be as apt using him in competitive matches; while the person with natural smarts may just need to get comfortable with Ganon and then become capable in competitive matches.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I find it ridiculous that several of the top Ganon mains would rather troll Kalm than share their input on matchups because he disdains any opinion that isn't his own and shoots them down with elitism and arrogance.

If this were true, I wouldn't be wasting my time making wall-o-posts for you, and just simply leave with a "I'm right, you're wrong" statement.

You're the ridiculous one,

 

[@HomE]

this is too funny to put into words

 

[Clai]

PhantomX-Actually they consisted of me gimping him or landing a strong hit, at the cost of lots of percentage and a ton of tedious walking powershields and dodges. I'm sure you can say he was being dumb or making a mistake, but I really don't see how it's his fault if I'm nairing him out of tethers and tipmanning him out of them/jumps.

Besides, if the matchup was 20:80, it doesn't matter how many mistakes he made, it still wouldn't be close.

Ray Kalm-You went wrong on your first sentence. Ganons can't be gimping Samus', and If Xyro knew how to play Ganon OR his Samus properly, he wouldn't allow Ganon to get close and touch him at ALL, atleast not if the Ganon player has a very unique and technical mind.

PhantomX-I think it's just safe to say that you're doing it wrong.

I've gimped GWs out of their Up B with nair (stage spike)... that's MUCH harder to do than gimping samus. All it takes for her is an upair out of tether/bomb jump or a nair to setup for whatever.

Ray Kalm- No, I'm pretty sure I'm doing it right. Xyro's not recovering properly if you're gimping him.

PhantomX-Why do you think I stopped posting altogether in the Matchup thread? I kept saying the matchups were super overinflated against Ganon (at least those that weren't top tier or Yoshi) but got scoffed at b/c I don't have WiFi prestige or whatever.

You know, stuff like this...

 

[Ray_Kalm]

That's arrogance how? I may have a bit of elitism.

Anyways. I might be using a secondary character in future tournaments I go to. I'll only use this secondary against players who I'll feel threatened against.

 

[BrokenVapor]

I'm pretty late but I thought I would join anyway...or..whatever XD.
I'm Vapor, you can call me Xeno...or just Nick, but I get called Nick alot (wonder why...)
Anyways I love Ganon, he's the manliest character in Brawl and Melee as far as i'm concerned, even Falcon can't own up to him. I've just started recently reading the guide cuz I'm stubborn as **** and I play a really aggressive Ganon, but, since i'm slow, and my brain can't process very fast according with my fingers, I usually suicide often...trying to fix that.
Well I'd love to get as good as Kalm, stRIP,uuuhh oh yah, cant forget iJosh, I always refer back to his combo vid to see WTF i'm doing wrong.
Anyways, I don't go to very many tournaments but I do play wi-fi (like, what else am I gonna do!?) so if your looking for a brawl hit me up! If it's any consellation, I have a youtube channel and upload videos, and I was considered the best Ganon on Neoseekr but knowing their community that;s not really saying much -.-

 

[adumbrodeus]

Seriously, Xyro is a national class player, his character is just abysmal.


Samus' recovery is reletively telegraphed and quite vulnerable, sure it's a bit of a guessing game, but it can be done.

 

[BrokenVapor]

I agree, same with Dk's, if you don't get caught in it before you can pull off a Uair or Dair.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Seriously, Xyro is a national class player, his character is just abysmal.


Samus' recovery is reletively telegraphed and quite vulnerable, sure it's a bit of a guessing game, but it can be done.

"Xyro's not recovering properly."

I never said he wasn't a good player. At the highest levels of play Samus shouldn't get gimped by Ganon.

 

[adumbrodeus]

"Xyro's not recovering properly."

I never said he wasn't a good player. At the highest levels of play, Samus shouldn't get gimped by Ganon.

Frame data on all that? If you say "never", then it's frame data and hitbubble time.


It seems to come down to a guessing game, which granted, is in samus' advantage, but can be be won by Ganon.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

In a practical view, yes. If you take mathematics into account, then, not so much.

 

[BrokenVapor]

I don't understand all the frame and hitbox delio if your playing to win and all you can think about is winning so you don't look like scrub material at a tourney.

 

[@HomE]

Kalm is in his own world where everyone plays perfect. No mistakes at all, therefore Ganon is obsolete.

Meanwhile In the real world....... The best players in the world make mistakes all the time. Everything Kalm is arguing is based on his own reality, you can make your own reality and live it Kalm, but you can't be upset when others refute your beliefs.

Your argument that "insert player here" is doing it wrong, is null. Your reality where mistakes aren't made is nonexistent.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Seriously, Xyro is a national class player, his character is just abysmal.


Samus' recovery is reletively telegraphed and quite vulnerable, sure it's a bit of a guessing game, but it can be done.

I strongly disagree with this statement. Samus has one of the best recoveries in the game.

She's extremely floaty and good at stalling, and she has projectiles and a pretty gay F-air, and her tether is super long and her Up-B is incredibly gdlk for recovery in general. Doing anything to this character offstage is really hard...unless your Metaknight I guess.

And I really don't consider Samus abysmal, since I've played against a good Samus quite a lot. I think the character is better than low tier, only hindered by low KO power, but solid in everything else important (which is staying safe and doing consistent damage. Good survivability and edgeguarding also help her). The character in high level play also seems extremely competent against Snake at the very least.

 

[*JuriHan*]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWulZOKANB4

 

[Vermanubis]

Am I the only one here who can't deal with Marth or Sonic online?

I just fought a fairly skilled Marth/Sonic user and I just could not function. Marth's blade dance is too difficult to shield alongside his other moves and Sonic is just so fast that you can't land a hit on him because of the delay.

Seriously, am I the only one who despises these two online?

 

[Bahamut777]

Am I the only one here who can't deal with Marth or Sonic online?

I just fought a fairly skilled Marth/Sonic user and I just could not function. Marth's blade dance is too difficult to shield alongside his other moves and Sonic is just so fast that you can't land a hit on him because of the delay.

Seriously, am I the only one who despises these two online?

You shouldn't fear Marth's Dancing Blade, since DI towards his back nullflies this move about 90% of times. I usually let the first hit catch me, DI towards Marth's back and do the murder. Besides, after you DI, he'll be within even Quake's range and will lag. **** him as you please.
About the common Marth stuff, just stay where you are, shield any unthinked FAir or NAir and then facepalm him to his place. Repeat until high % and then stomp him to the skys. That's what I do against a somewhat good Marth player here in Brazil, online or offline.

Sonic's may look untouchable, but they are not. DTilt is Sonic's nightmare here, since his grounded approaches are all nulled by the Sliq. Hit aerial approaches can be shielded and NAir/UAir OoS almost all the times. When you fall by juggling with his UAirs, airdodge it. You can't stomp a good Sonic whenever he starts UAiring you to oblivion. BAir will probably be stalled, but if it's not, it will be foreseen easily and Ganon's natural wight and DI Up + NAir/UAir momentum cancel + DownB can let you live to 200% easily. FSmash is only good for Sonic to take you offstage. DI Up and you'll be at a good angle to recover and punish him if he's stupid enought to try something on you. Be aware of the spring gimping and spiking, tho'.

Online it's just a matter of getting used to the delay. You can do this by, at the start of the match, shield a couple times and see the delay between your button press and your shield reaction. It will help you get used to the timing and let you **** at will.

 

[Vermanubis]

You shouldn't fear Marth's Dancing Blade, since DI towards his back nullflies this move about 90% of times. I usually let the first hit catch me, DI towards Marth's back and do the murder. Besides, after you DI, he'll be within even Quake's range and will lag. **** him as you please.
About the common Marth stuff, just stay where you are, shield any unthinked FAir or NAir and then facepalm him to his place. Repeat until high % and then stomp him to the skys. That's what I do against a somewhat good Marth player here in Brazil, online or offline.

Sonic's may look untouchable, but they are not. DTilt is Sonic's nightmare here, since his grounded approaches are all nulled by the Sliq. Hit aerial approaches can be shielded and NAir/UAir OoS almost all the times. When you fall by juggling with his UAirs, airdodge it. You can't stomp a good Sonic whenever he starts UAiring you to oblivion. BAir will probably be stalled, but if it's not, it will be foreseen easily and Ganon's natural wight and DI Up + NAir/UAir momentum cancel + DownB can let you live to 200% easily. FSmash is only good for Sonic to take you offstage. DI Up and you'll be at a good angle to recover and punish him if he's stupid enought to try something on you. Be aware of the spring gimping and spiking, tho'.

Online it's just a matter of getting used to the delay. You can do this by, at the start of the match, shield a couple times and see the delay between your button press and your shield reaction. It will help you get used to the timing and let you **** at will.

Much obliged for the tips, Bahamut, but I only have trouble with them (beyond obvious troubles) when online.

I was just saying that online DIing and shielding are a lot more difficult, so Marth and Sonic can do a lot more as they please. In theory, one could get used to the delay, but no matter how used to it you are, there will always be horrific disadvantages such as being unable to shield, DI properly and occasionally doing improper moves. Sonic is free to run around and spindash you to death thanks to an unreliable shield, and Marth can juggle you since by the time the delay acknowledges your DI input, you've already taken full dancing blade damage.

 

[Sovereign]

Wish me luck at VG. I'm usin' Ganon, but I can't guarantee 100%.

 

[Bahamut777]

Much obliged for the tips, Bahamut, but I only have trouble with them (beyond obvious troubles) when online.

I was just saying that online DIing and shielding are a lot more difficult, so Marth and Sonic can do a lot more as they please. In theory, one could get used to the delay, but no matter how used to it you are, there will always be horrific disadvantages such as being unable to shield, DI properly and occasionally doing improper moves. Sonic is free to run around and spindash you to death thanks to an unreliable shield, and Marth can juggle you since by the time the delay acknowledges your DI input, you've already taken full dancing blade damage.

I see online as the ultimate G-Dorf Training (well... sorta): you HAVE to foresee and react before things happen. It helped me a little to analyse my opponents at very low time of gameplay. Try to read your opponent's pattern of actions and you'll know how to react and the delay will not even exist, since you'll see everything before it happen and then react on time.

 

[Xyro77]

"Xyro's not recovering properly."

I never said he wasn't a good player. At the highest levels of play Samus shouldn't get gimped by Ganon.

Incorrect. Everybody makes mistakes. top or low level.

 

[Vermanubis]

I see online as the ultimate G-Dorf Training (well... sorta): you HAVE to foresee and react before things happen. It helped me a little to analyse my opponents at very low time of gameplay. Try to read your opponent's pattern of actions and you'll know how to react and the delay will not even exist, since you'll see everything before it happen and then react on time.

I can agree there. The few times I have played offline, I was unstoppable. I felt lighter than air, lol.

Online gives a lot of boons in this regard, but the bad, as I said before, are the buffering queues getting shoved back a mile, so you end up doing 5 wrong moves in a row. You just feel so weighed down.

To be honest, the match-up I hate most online is Ganondorf. I despise Ganon dittos online. I can't bring myself to play one seriously.

 

[Clai]

Frame data on all that? If you say "never", then it's frame data and hitbubble time.


It seems to come down to a guessing game, which granted, is in samus' advantage, but can be be won by Ganon.

This basically states what I was going to say. Unless the frame data/hitbubbles prove that Samus' recovery options will win 100% of the time, there is a chance that Ganondorf will succeed in gimping her, no matter how perfect she's executing those options.

The problem is that whenever we hear something that appears far-fetch'd, the typical reaction is to talk down upon that person and tell them it's a bunch of nonsense (PhantomX gimping Samus, Breezy beating IC's, etc). What we should be doing is asking them how they end up doing these things and beating options that we thought were impossible. Expanding these ideas is how we're going to advance Ganondorf's metagame, not suppressing what could be viable tactics just because they disagree with general consensus.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

This basically states what I was going to say. Unless the frame data/hitbubbles prove that Samus' recovery options will win 100% of the time, there is a chance that Ganondorf will succeed in gimping her, no matter how perfect she's executing those options.

The problem is that whenever we hear something that appears far-fetch'd, the typical reaction is to talk down upon that person and tell them it's a bunch of nonsense (PhantomX gimping Samus, Breezy beating IC's, etc). What we should be doing is asking them how they end up doing these things and beating options that we thought were impossible. Expanding these ideas is how we're going to advance Ganondorf's metagame, not suppressing what could be viable tactics just because they disagree with general consensus.

If frame data/hit bubbles is that seriously desired, then you would need to do the same treatment for both sides. You're over centralizing Ganon's gimping abilities here.

Also, Samus' recovery already provides some evidence in itself. A2zomg gave a fairly good example.

 

[@HomE]

Keep completely ignoring the people that are dismantling your arguments Kalm...

 

[Clai]

If frame data/hit bubbles is that seriously desired, then you would need to do the same treatment for both sides. You're over centralizing Ganon's gimping abilities here.

Also, Samus' recovery already provides some evidence in itself. A2zomg gave a fairly good example.

Considering how much we use and study Ganondorf and all of his moves, we've pretty much memorized Ganondorf's hit bubbles and frame data. What we need to do is apply our knowledge of Ganon's physical data to the physical data of whichever character we're discussing, and unless one of us also mains the other character and knows his/her/its physical data forward, backward and inside out, we need to bring the data over so everyone can see it and analyze it.

Samus may have many recovery options, but the more important factor is how potent each and every one of those options are. If Ganondorf has an answer for every one of Samus' recovery options, then you can't count out the possibility of the Ganon player predicting the Samus player using a particular recovery option and then beating it with Ganon's option. The only way we can tell if her options can be beaten is by using her physical data.

SDI Samus' F-air -> Ganon hits Samus in the face

 

[Bahamut777]

Online gives a lot of boons in this regard, but the bad, as I said before, are the buffering queues getting shoved back a mile, so you end up doing 5 wrong moves in a row. You just feel so weighed down.

To be honest, the match-up I hate most online is Ganondorf. I despise Ganon dittos online. I can't bring myself to play one seriously.

QFT

10hundredofthis... =(

 

[A2ZOMG]

Considering how much we use and study Ganondorf and all of his moves, we've pretty much memorized Ganondorf's hit bubbles and frame data. What we need to do is apply our knowledge of Ganon's physical data to the physical data of whichever character we're discussing, and unless one of us also mains the other character and knows his/her/its physical data forward, backward and inside out, we need to bring the data over so everyone can see it and analyze it.

Samus may have many recovery options, but the more important factor is how potent each and every one of those options are. If Ganondorf has an answer for every one of Samus' recovery options, then you can't count out the possibility of the Ganon player predicting the Samus player using a particular recovery option and then beating it with Ganon's option. The only way we can tell if her options can be beaten is by using her physical data.

SDI Samus' F-air -> Ganon hits Samus in the face

Ganon really doesn't have an answer to a Samus who intelligently stalls offstage and reacts to when you jump offstage and throws out homing missiles to limit where you can go to edgeguard her. She is both floaty and agile in the air, and her Z-air not only grabs the ledge from 9000 miles away, she can abuse the properties of canceling airdodges with it to really screw up attempts to punish her.

For the matter not many characters can really reliably cover her vast options she has for recovering.

 

[Superspright]

A2ZOMG with the slam dunk!!

Seriously guys, Ganon can't gimp her. I tried. If they are good and play well enough the opportunity shouldn't arise, and if it does be wary--I've gotten gimped this way a lot.

 

[BrokenVapor]

I see online as the ultimate G-Dorf Training (well... sorta): you HAVE to foresee and react before things happen. It helped me a little to analyse my opponents at very low time of gameplay. Try to read your opponent's pattern of actions and you'll know how to react and the delay will not even exist, since you'll see everything before it happen and then react on time.

I dunno, when i'm waiting for someone i beat up Sandbag, and I swear i get a little better when i do