Ganon's Beard - General. Social. Rankings.

[B!squick]

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/sbhm-live-at-hawaiian-brians

Ganon dittos live from Hawaii at the moment.

 

[Noobicidal]

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/sbhm-live-at-hawaiian-brians

Ganon dittos live from Hawaii at the moment.

I'm watching now.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Olimar's pivot grab >>>> ROB's B-air.

 

[§chizm]

2-stocked another IC at a tourney yesterday.
Just sayin.
I also played a set with Mr. Doom. I lost, but I 3 stocked him on bf. Third game he got me in that **** F-Throw infinite against a wall on delfino and just crushed all my morale.

I hate you.
Breezy is legit though.

 

[Breezy]

I hate you.
Breezy is legit though.

I love you too schizm

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Olimar's pivot grab >>>> ROB's B-air.

Olimar has Pivot Grab, he can't do anything else that isn't obvious.

Rob has (just to name a few) NAir, BAir, and even spotdodge (which is unpunishable).

 

[PhantomX]

No spotdodge is unpunishable, not even the uber ones likes D3 and Diddy.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Olimar is muuuuuuuuuuuuuch harder for Ganon then ROB is.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Olimar is muuuuuuuuuuuuuch harder for Ganon then ROB is.

Yeah, I totally agree with you. What an informative post.

Rob's spotdodge is punishable, but not for Ganon. Unless Rob executes spotdodge during the animation of one of Ganon's moves, you're not punishing it.

Rob is an impossible match-up if the Rob plays properly on it's side.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Olimar has Pivot Grab, he can't do anything else that isn't obvious.

Rob has (just to name a few) NAir, BAir, and even spotdodge (which is unpunishable).

Olimar also can spotdodge into a MUCH STRONGER smash attack.

Yeah he has less priority than Ganon, but up close it's harder for Ganon to deal with Olimar's tilts too as well.

 

[PhantomX]

Yeah, I totally agree with you. What an informative post.

Rob's spotdodge is punishable, but not for Ganon. Unless Rob executes spotdodge during the animation of one of Ganon's moves, you're not punishing it.

Rob is an impossible match-up if the Rob plays properly on it's side.

Dang, are you saying Ganon can't punish things on reaction? That's the case against almost every move of ever character for him, and thus a moot point.

This is why you stand outside their dsmash range and start charging a stutter stepped fsmash. You can release in reaction to spotdodges and punish, I do it plenty.

 

[*JuriHan*]

hey kalm some1 wrote a blog on aib about how you beat some ICer...

 

[Clai]

About every character forces Ganon to approach. The ones that can stop and/or put you at a disadvantage position are more threatening than the ones that can't. At the highest levels of play you should be more afraid of the threat of the execution of a move that can put you at a disadvantage by stopping or hiting you than a move that is least likely to do so. Also, NAir can stop Olimar's Pikmin before they latch onto you.

As I said before, Olimar will mostly rely on pivot grabbing to stop your approaches, and those can be beaten. Rob on the otherhand has a much more variety of options to stop your approaches, some of which include using his rangeful tilts to halt you, SH NAir to cancel all you can do, and even spotdodging.

Does Ganondorf have anything that has a long enough range to get past Olimar's pivot grabbing while being low enough to hit Olimar's tiny frame? Also, due to Olimar being so small that Ganondorf's fastest attacks can't hit him, Olimar can basically react to anything Ganondorf can do and punish him for it. I gave up using Ganon against Olimar a long time ago, but if you know of an approach that can actually reach Olimar without Olimar being able to react with an 8-frame U-smash or simply running away and pivot grabbing, please share this.

Oh and if you're talking about this ROB's N-air:

N-air:
Hitbox Out: Frame 18
Hitbox End: Frame 33
Move End: Frame 48
Autocancel?: Frame 33
Landing Lag: 12 Frames?

That move isn't stuffing out Ganon's approaches any time soon.

Being forced to shield at far range to something that can easily be thrown again will awfully hurt you, especially if your Ganon.

Neither ROB's lasers or its gyro can be used again fast enough for them to be a threat after Ganondorf shields them from far away, as it has to take the time to charge them up. And since you can react to both of them and powershield them, there's really no reason why Ganondorf can't make up the space with ease.

I would think you would know how much of a disadvantage SHADing or spotdodging puts Ganon. Yes, they might be one of the better options, but that doesn't mean anything if it doesn't help.

ROB's laser hits on frame 31 and an uncharged gyro hits on frame 21. Considering that I'm only considering dodging these projectiles when neither ROB or Ganon are close enough to engage in CQC, let's consider how Ganon can dodge:

Spot-dodge- 5 frames of vulnerability. Yeah, nothing's punishing Ganon.
SHAD- Ganon has 20 frames of vulnerability after doing an airdodge, but Ganon might have landed before those frames run out, meaning that Ganondorf might shield earlier than that. Still, ROB isn't punishing Ganondorf with a projectile any time soon.

The only moves that ROB can reasonably punish Ganondorf's spotdodge is Dtilt and Dsmash, but then we're talking about CQC territory, where ROB's not going to try and hit you with a projectile.

Rob having a Gyro in it's hand is more threatening than it not holding one. Yes, it's moves become more limited, but they also become much faster and more threatening. Compared to not having the Gyro in it's hand, it's now able to mindgame you with lasers more fluently since you'll be trying to back off to avoid getting hit. It can also glidetoss you and combo into that.

I know ROB can combo from a glidetoss, that's why I said to back off to a great enough distance where this doesn't become an issue. Yes ROB is more threatening with a gyro than without one, but since you know what his options are, you can better prepare for each one and not make any unnecessary movements. And you're not going to get mindgamed with lasers because you're going to be busy preparing for its glidetoss, which is much, much faster than a laser.

Chances of a Ganon picking up the Gyro are rare. It won't be happening in a competitive match. Even if it does, as like you were saying, the Gyro will make Ganon more limited, he won't be hitting Rob with it (dodging's not hard to do).

That's dependant on whether ROB is throwing a gyro at you for the purpose of hitting you or if it's throwing the gyro close to him so that he can pick it up and become a threat. Since Ganon's either going to make the gyro disappear by shielding it or get hit by it and thus be too far away to reach the gyro, I'll consider the second possibility. If you can sense ROB going after the gyro, Ganon's U-air and D-air pretty much cover ROB's options when it comes to trying to pick up a gyro.

Ganon will be holding a gyro during a competitive match. It just requires smart thinking on the player's part.

That makes matters worse, Clai. BAir does more than not get punish. It sends Rob away from you, which isn't what you want.

ROB throws out a B-air.
Ganon powershield's the B-air on reaction.
ROB can't guarantee a follow-up because B-air sends it too far away to punish Ganon for shielding it.
Ganon can't guarantee a follow-up because ROB is sent too far away for Ganon to punish it for using the attack.

The way I see it, it just resets the situation and puts the position advantage at neutral. No one wins, no one loses.

 

[wowoduend]

sounds Like That 3rd Gen Psychic/fighting Pokemon, Lol

Medicham?!?

 

[Sovereign]

Yeah, I totally agree with you. What an informative post.

Rob's spotdodge is punishable, but not for Ganon. Unless Rob executes spotdodge during the animation of one of Ganon's moves, you're not punishing it.

Rob is an impossible match-up if the Rob plays properly on it's side.

I really can't agree with this, no matter how bad Ganon is. First, define what properly is for the ROB, second why say something that negative? Kosk has beaten Holy, IIRC, as Holy is one of the best ROB players I've seen. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but no match-up is impossible.

No one is perfect, and no one will ever be perfect, so calling something impossible in terms of player vs. player/Ganon vs. Other Character is null to me, as it should be to anyone else that agrees with this.

 

[PhantomX]

Lol, if everyone played perfectly, Ganon would never win, EVER.

 

[Divilenta]

Lol, if everyone played perfectly, Ganon would never win, EVER.

If everyone played perfectly then Ganon wouldn't suck?

Or is the brawl engine that bad when it comes to him.

 

[PhantomX]

It's that bad. He has no fast OoS option, a terrible grab, and no approach.

If everyone played perfectly Ganon would win nothing.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Well, playing perfectly = perfectly predicting your opponent as well as technical perfection, so, that would technically be an eternal stalemate except for characters that none of Ganon's options counter.


If you mean technical perfection and 8 frame reaction times at an extremely high level of play (for argument, Ally's level), then yea, pretty much never. You know, like now.

 

[Raikou_Cypher]

I really can't agree with this, no matter how bad Ganon is. First, define what properly is for the ROB, second why say something that negative? Kosk has beaten Holy, IIRC, as Holy is one of the best ROB players I've seen. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but no match-up is impossible.

No one is perfect, and no one will ever be perfect, so calling something impossible in terms of player vs. player/Ganon vs. Other Character is null to me, as it should be to anyone else that agrees with this.

I really can't agree with this, I'm very sorry to say (because I wish Ganon wasn't so hard pressed to beat a ROB). However, all ROB has to do is camp and Ganon has no chance. I've seen that Holy vs. Kosk match, and don't get me wrong, it was a great match, and kudos to Kosk for winning it, but Holy didn't camp at all. If that hadn't been a friendly, I bet Holy would've camped a lot more. Having recently gotten camped out the wazoo by a ROB (they were friendlies, but he nearly timed me out. There were 9 seconds left when he got my last stock at 253%), I totally agree with Kalm. ROB is impossible if he plays correctly.

 

[PhantomX]

Again... if everyone camps/plays right against Ganondorf, Ganon is never going to win... so what is the discussion even about?

He said ROB was harder for Ganon than Olimar, and there's just no Way that's true, lol.

He also said ROB's nair ***** us, which is also not true, b/c nair is slow and we can beat it with our faster aerials.

 

[Sovereign]

Then pick someone else... I don't want to read about the obvious of obvious facts. Ganon has no speed or anti-camp game, so why mention it?

And it's called a Shield, Ganon has one like the rest of the cast, as ROB only has two projectiles that are easy to see coming, making for an easy PS, but if that's all ROB really has to do, as well as any other character in this game, then these boards need not exist for Ganon.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

So are there any ganons on the aib winters ladder? it wuld be nice to have someone repping the dorf

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Does Ganondorf have anything that has a long enough range to get past Olimar's pivot grabbing while being low enough to hit Olimar's tiny frame? Also, due to Olimar being so small that Ganondorf's fastest attacks can't hit him, Olimar can basically react to anything Ganondorf can do and punish him for it. I gave up using Ganon against Olimar a long time ago, but if you know of an approach that can actually reach Olimar without Olimar being able to react with an 8-frame U-smash or simply running away and pivot grabbing, please share this.

I never said pivot grabbing was easy to get around, but it is easier to deal with since that's basically all Olimar has to stop Ganon from running up to him.

Also, about punishing Olimar's pivot grab, after what you previously said about Rob's BAir, you're contradicting yourself. (The spacing is reset, etc). You obviously won't be punishing the lag, but you don't have to. You should be making aerial approaches, land onto the ground, trick Olimar into using his grab, roll to avoid it, trick Olimar into another move THEN punish that move. It's gonna be hard, but not on the same level as Rob's BAir, which you can't do ANYTHING about but shield (aerial approaches are also a nono).

So, if you compare the two moves (Rob's BAir & Olimar's pivot grab), Rob's BAir definitely wins in stopping your approaches. To re-elaborate, you can make a more number of approaches against Olimar's pivot grab and deal with it, while you can only make a "run up and shield" approach against Rob's BAir and still be put in a bad position (aerial approaches will also get cancelled out, so you know).

Oh and if you're talking about this ROB's N-air:

That move isn't stuffing out Ganon's approaches any time soon.

It's not the frame data that makes NAir threatening, it's more of the hitbox and priority.

And, why show me it's frame data? "That move isn't stuffing out Ganon's approaches anytime soon. Frame data doesn't prove anything.

Neither ROB's lasers or its gyro can be used again fast enough for them to be a threat after Ganondorf shields them from far away, as it has to take the time to charge them up. And since you can react to both of them and powershield them, there's really no reason why Ganondorf can't make up the space with ease.

You're absolutely wrong.

First off, have you been paying attention to what I've been saying? Having to shield at such range, or any range, is bad. That simple.

Secondly, Rob's projectiles will charge fast enough to be used again before Ganon reaches Rob. This isn't Falcon we're talking about.

Lastly, as I said in my first paragraph from this quote, dealing with Rob's projectiles doesn't mean anything (against a good one). This isn't Link or Samus where you can deal with their projectiles and then mindgame them to a hit. You can try mindgaming Rob, but you can only do so up close, otherwise you're in range for his projectiles again (and please stop saying how they are "easy to deal with", when dealing with them doesn't mean anything). But, up close, Rob can SH BAir to stop all your possible 'solutions' in hitting him. - If you were to put Olimar in this scenario, you wouldn't have the same problems.

ROB's laser hits on frame 31 and an uncharged gyro hits on frame 21. Considering that I'm only considering dodging these projectiles when neither ROB or Ganon are close enough to engage in CQC, let's consider how Ganon can dodge:

Spot-dodge- 5 frames of vulnerability. Yeah, nothing's punishing Ganon.
SHAD- Ganon has 20 frames of vulnerability after doing an airdodge, but Ganon might have landed before those frames run out, meaning that Ganondorf might shield earlier than that. Still, ROB isn't punishing Ganondorf with a projectile any time soon.

The only moves that ROB can reasonably punish Ganondorf's spotdodge is Dtilt and Dsmash, but then we're talking about CQC territory, where ROB's not going to try and hit you with a projectile.

Read above, I've explained there's a difference with dealing with projectiles and having to deal with them.

I know ROB can combo from a glidetoss, that's why I said to back off to a great enough distance where this doesn't become an issue. Yes ROB is more threatening with a gyro than without one, but since you know what his options are, you can better prepare for each one and not make any unnecessary movements. And you're not going to get mindgamed with lasers because you're going to be busy preparing for its glidetoss, which is much, much faster than a laser.

What? You ALWAYS know what Rob's options will be (or anyone else's for this matter). Gyro makes those options BETTER. Limited but better.

For example, if, say, you were to techchase, your options become limited, but, at that same time, so do your opponent's. You'll have the advantage in getting the next hit, and your & your opponent's options become limited.

How will backing of a distance help against an execution of a glidetoss? Ignoring the fact that, from a glidetoss, the gyro can reach to the end of any stage, you'll have to also eat lasers. Retreating isn't a good idea.

That's dependant on whether ROB is throwing a gyro at you for the purpose of hitting you or if it's throwing the gyro close to him so that he can pick it up and become a threat. Since Ganon's either going to make the gyro disappear by shielding it or get hit by it and thus be too far away to reach the gyro, I'll consider the second possibility. If you can sense ROB going after the gyro, Ganon's U-air and D-air pretty much cover ROB's options when it comes to trying to pick up a gyro.

Ganon will be holding a gyro during a competitive match. It just requires smart thinking on the player's part.

Even then, Ganon having a gyro in his hand will hinder him more than it'll help him. He's trying to get close up to Rob and try and hit him, the gyro will make him more limited, and give him less possibilities of doing so.

ROB throws out a B-air.
Ganon powershield's the B-air on reaction.
ROB can't guarantee a follow-up because B-air sends it too far away to punish Ganon for shielding it.
Ganon can't guarantee a follow-up because ROB is sent too far away for Ganon to punish it for using the attack.

The way I see it, it just resets the situation and puts the position advantage at neutral. No one wins, no one loses.

I talked about this at the top somewhere.

Sovereign, impossible match-ups have existed and will exist in games. New players to Ganon will always start off with positive thoughts about him, as like you are doing now, but will soon come to realize not everything could be what and how they want it to, this also includes myself. I'm not being negative about anything. There's a difference between "the truth" and negativity. Ironically enough, I'm probably the only person who goes all Ganon in tournaments despite what match-ups I have to face. Also, as someone previously mentioned, Holy wasn't playing his character properly against Ganon. And, if I recall correctly, Kosk and Holy never played in real.

PhantomX, about Rob's NAir and Olimar, read what I wrote to Clai, above.

Dina, I think I might of found it now.

And about Aib's ladder, I joined about 4-5 days ago. Used & using Ganon 100%, as I always do, and I'm currently ranked 45th. I'll be making it to the playoffs.

 

[Sovereign]

My last tournament I went all Ganon. I only played Captain Falcon against one person, VaMP, because I promised him the match. I could've beaten him with Ganon, as well. I placed pretty well, IMO for my second tourney, first tourney going all Ganon. My thoughts about him aren't all positive, as I know he outright has terrible/horrible match-ups. though I don't believe in any match-up(on a video game) being impossible.

I'm not new to Ganon, albeit me just recently starting my association on these boards.

And if the Holy v. Kosk wasn't a legit fight, then I'll have to get a fight with a "legit" R.O.B on record. I'm going to VG, but I'll tell you now that I'm not using all Ganon, or don't plan to, at least, but I'll look for a good R.O.B to at least play and try to record the match.

I would like to know the reason you believe the MU to be impossible, Kalm. Truth and negativity are indeed different, which is why you must give me reason to find your words true.

 

[Superspright]

He just did.

 

[Clai]

I never said pivot grabbing was easy to get around, but it is easier to deal with since that's basically all Olimar has to stop Ganon from running up to him.

And what is Ganon going to do once he runs to to Olimar. You can't approach Olimar from the air because none of Ganon's aerials can hit Olimar while being autocanceled (except for his Dair, but the Olimar player should be able to tell when Ganondorf's going to approach with Dair, considering that it has very short range horizontally, and hit Ganon with U-smash before Ganon can hit Olimar)

Also, about punishing Olimar's pivot grab, after what you previously said about Rob's BAir, you're contradicting yourself. (The spacing is reset, etc). You obviously won't be punishing the lag, but you don't have to. You should be making aerial approaches, land onto the ground, trick Olimar into using his grab, roll to avoid it, trick Olimar into another move THEN punish that move. It's gonna be hard, but not on the same level as Rob's BAir, which you can't do ANYTHING about but shield (aerial approaches are also a nono).

So, if you compare the two moves (Rob's BAir & Olimar's pivot grab), Rob's BAir definitely wins in stopping your approaches. To re-elaborate, you can make a more number of approaches against Olimar's pivot grab and deal with it, while you can only make a "run up and shield" approach against Rob's BAir and still be put in a bad position (aerial approaches will also get cancelled out, so you know).

I'm not contradicting myself. I'm saying that there isn't a definitive approach that can handle Olimar's pivot grab while retaining a neutral position advantage while there is a definitive approach for ROB's B-air (run up and shield). I fail to see where this approach "puts Ganon in a bad position" against ROB's Bair because since the move spaces ROB to the point where he can't punish Ganondorf for shielding, you're essentially in the exact same situation as if ROB didn't throw out a B-air. Also, nothing in that quote answers my question, which was 'what definitive action can Ganondorf do as an approach that can get past Olimar's pivot grab?' We have a definitive answer for ROB (shield), what about Olimar?

It's not the frame data that makes NAir threatening, it's more of the hitbox and priority.

And, why show me it's frame data? "That move isn't stuffing out Ganon's approaches anytime soon. Frame data doesn't prove anything.

Hitboxes and priority don't mean anything if Ganondorf can hit ROB with an U-air or an N-air before the hitbox of ROB's Nair comes out, and this is including Ganon's jump lag. ROB's N-air is simply too slow to be an actual threat to Ganon's approaches.

First off, have you been paying attention to what I've been saying? Having to shield at such range, or any range, is bad. That simple.

If ROB can't do anything to punish Ganondorf for shielding, then shielding isn't a bad thing. How can it possibly be a bad thing?

Secondly, Rob's projectiles will charge fast enough to be used again before Ganon reaches Rob. This isn't Falcon we're talking about.

So what if Ganon doesn't reach ROB? That means ROB can't reach Ganon either, which leads to another round of projectile dodging, which can be avoided exactly the same way as the last time, except Ganondorf made up a little more space while ROB's waiting for its projectiles to recharge. We're not playing on an infinite stage, so any space that Ganondorf makes up is good space.

Lastly, as I said in my first paragraph from this quote, dealing with Rob's projectiles doesn't mean anything (against a good one). This isn't Link or Samus where you can deal with their projectiles and then mindgame them to a hit. You can try mindgaming Rob, but you can only do so up close, otherwise you're in range for his projectiles again (and please stop saying how they are "easy to deal with", when dealing with them doesn't mean anything). But, up close, Rob can SH BAir to stop all your possible 'solutions' in hitting him. - If you were to put Olimar in this scenario, you wouldn't have the same problems.

Close-range combat and far-range combat are two completely different things. If you want to talk about Ganon and ROB in close-range combat, we'll talk about that, but stop pretending that ROB's projectiles have anything to do with what's going to happen in close-range combat. If you can easily deal with ROB's projectiles, they are not a threat. Done deal.

How will backing of a distance help against an execution of a glidetoss? Ignoring the fact that, from a glidetoss, the gyro can reach to the end of any stage, you'll have to also eat lasers. Retreating isn't a good idea.

Backing of a distance will help against any follow-ups that ROB can do from a glidetoss, because as long as you're far enough away, even if Ganondorf gets hit by the glidetoss, he'll be too far away for ROB to do anything more to him. You're substantially reducing the threat of ROB's glidetoss by reducing the potential amount of damage it can do from it.

This is also ignoring the fact that at a far enough distance, you'll have more than enough time to powershield the gyro if ROB tries to throw one at you from that far of a distance, not to mention you'll also have plenty of time to react if ROB tries to throw a laser at you instead (or after).

Even then, Ganon having a gyro in his hand will hinder him more than it'll help him. He's trying to get close up to Rob and try and hit him, the gyro will make him more limited, and give him less possibilities of doing so.

Whatever options he loses by holding a projectile is made up by the options he gains from having a projectile, such as glidetossing, aerial dropping, aerial tossing, etc. Also, Ganon holding the gyro completely removes the threat of ROB doing anything with a gyro, since it can't have two gyros.

Sovereign, impossible match-ups have existed and will exist in games. Newer players to Ganon will always start off with positive thoughts about him, as like you are doing, but will soon come to realize not everything could be what they want, this includes myself. I'm not being negative about anything. There's a difference between "the truth" and negativity. Ironically enough, I'm probably the only person who goes all Ganon in tournaments despite what match-ups I have to face. Also, as someone previously mentioned, Holy wasn't playing his character properly against Ganon. And, if I recall correctly, Kosk and Holy never played in real.

The 'truth' is never set in stone. All we have now are opinions, and those can be broken when you're putting your heart into it. Also, I've always wondered why you go all Ganon in tournaments when you complain like a girl about his matchups and try to pass them off as facts.

Points aside, by this time tomorrow, I will have reached the 'epitome of manhood' age of 21. I'll be going out and I expect to have added three dimensions of manliness when I come back.

 

[Sovereign]

*reads over the Great Wall of Texts*

How about this? All of what Kalm says is real good on internet paper, but in the actual game, I doubt all of this will really matter, but taking what he says into account, does more for a Ganon main, than it would for a R.O.B main. As much as you answer all of our objections to your reasons, you should provide an answer to how to deal with R.O.B instead of giving me how I can't deal with this.

As you've talked about shielding why not evade the projectiles, instead of shielding them, so that you can advance towards the R.O.B while suffering no damage. Rolling sucks, I know, but it can be used in solution to PSing from a distance, allowing you to possibly wall R.O.B, from running to the other side of the stage, once you've reached a certain point on the stage. Ganon's options aren't the best, but there's always a way to deal with things presented before you. You'd laugh at me saying wall a R.O.B with Ganon, since he'd probably upB Nair to get to the other side. (Let's just use Final Destination, for now. Imagine that.) Shield it and OoS a Uair. Simple yes, but it's a solution, in one case.

 

[BrokenVapor]

I tried out the ladder, didnt do so well though...Mainly because it's nonstop high tier match-ups, no johns though, it was fun.

 

[Sovereign]

I tried out the ladder, didnt do so well though...Mainly because it's nonstop high tier match-ups, no johns though, it was fun.

I'm just too bored with the ladder to even try, but I'll do it for Ganon.

 

[Magnamancy]

Swinging the topic back to the social focus for a second;
Hey everyone, it's a pleasure to meet you all.

Alright, so I think the main contention here is that Ganon has a hard time
against ROB, projectile spam and B-air nullify the Dorf.

My personal opinion, your approach has to be super slow, but 'perfect'.
Don't mistake me, I mean just take a few steps, dodge/shield projectiles,
rinse and repeat.
If you don't get hit, you've started mindgaming the ROB into believing
range can't hurt you. He may resort to coming into our range to hurt us.
Maybe.

Also, forgive me if this is a silly question, but is spotdodging really that far
out of the question? I thought the flames only lasted a moment, or are there
invisible hitboxes a la Lucario?

(maybe I'm to optimistic. )

Ahh, ninjaed a few times over.

So alright, this ladder business is placings in tourneys hmm?

I'm also using Ganondorf in tourneys, but I'm in Australia.

I doubt I'll dent the ladder of interstate places like America, but
I can show Ganon off here.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

And what is Ganon going to do once he runs to to Olimar. You can't approach Olimar from the air because none of Ganon's aerials can hit Olimar while being autocanceled (except for his Dair, but the Olimar player should be able to tell when Ganondorf's going to approach with Dair, considering that it has very short range horizontally, and hit Ganon with U-smash before Ganon can hit Olimar)

Approaching from the air doesn't mean you're suppose to attack in the air. You approach from the air (ignoring all Pikmins being thrown at you and hoping Olimar has no purple ones), you then land which'll (most likely) force Olimar to use his grab which you can avoid by a quick double jump or a roll. At this point, you'll be at close range.

I'm not contradicting myself. I'm saying that there isn't a definitive approach that can handle Olimar's pivot grab while retaining a neutral position advantage while there is a definitive approach for ROB's B-air (run up and shield). I fail to see where this approach "puts Ganon in a bad position" against ROB's Bair because since the move spaces ROB to the point where he can't punish Ganondorf for shielding, you're essentially in the exact same situation as if ROB didn't throw out a B-air. Also, nothing in that quote answers my question, which was 'what definitive action can Ganondorf do as an approach that can get past Olimar's pivot grab?' We have a definitive answer for ROB (shield), what about Olimar?

There's is no definitive answer, and I don't ever recall Ganon having one for anything.

There are ways around it though. I've just described one.

Also, what does the definitive answer for Rob's BAir do? Essentially, nothing. Rob's BAir puts you in a bad position on shield or powershield. Not only is it frame disadvantage, it's also pushback, and bad positioning. Your in position for FTilt, which you'll also have to shield. You basically go back to where you started again.

If Ganon's definitive to Rob's BAir is shield, then it's not helpful to him in anyway. Rob gets the advantage of BAir on shield.

Hitboxes and priority don't mean anything if Ganondorf can hit ROB with an U-air or an N-air before the hitbox of ROB's Nair comes out, and this is including Ganon's jump lag. ROB's N-air is simply too slow to be an actual threat to Ganon's approaches.

Ever heard of spacing? Rob can move NAir back at the start of the move, and then go in. Ganon can't beat it in priority.

If ROB can't do anything to punish Ganondorf for shielding, then shielding isn't a bad thing. How can it possibly be a bad thing?

I was comparing it to Olimar's Pikmin the whole time. Shielding is a bad thing if your forced to do it frequently and at such ranges. Yes it can help you out, but it gives the opponent the advantage more so then Ganon, especially if the opponent can force it at any range.

So what if Ganon doesn't reach ROB? That means ROB can't reach Ganon either, which leads to another round of projectile dodging, which can be avoided exactly the same way as the last time, except Ganondorf made up a little more space while ROB's waiting for its projectiles to recharge. We're not playing on an infinite stage, so any space that Ganondorf makes up is good space.

The main point is you're being put at a disadvantage at all times by having to dodge so frequently. Rob doesn't want to reach Ganon till kill percent, so I don't see how it not reaching you is bad.

Close-range combat and far-range combat are two completely different things. If you want to talk about Ganon and ROB in close-range combat, we'll talk about that, but stop pretending that ROB's projectiles have anything to do with what's going to happen in close-range combat. If you can easily deal with ROB's projectiles, they are not a threat. Done deal.

It's not what Rob's projectiles can do at CQC, rather what BAir allows them to do.

Backing of a distance will help against any follow-ups that ROB can do from a glidetoss, because as long as you're far enough away, even if Ganondorf gets hit by the glidetoss, he'll be too far away for ROB to do anything more to him. You're substantially reducing the threat of ROB's glidetoss by reducing the potential amount of damage it can do from it.

Being far away puts you in danger of going off stage. You'd always want to be in the air or on platforms when Rob has a projectile in his hand. Even then, Rob can laser to hit you down.

Whatever options he loses by holding a projectile is made up by the options he gains from having a projectile, such as glidetossing, aerial dropping, aerial tossing, etc. Also, Ganon holding the gyro completely removes the threat of ROB doing anything with a gyro, since it can't have two gyros.

Ganon still has to approach to hit Rob. Gyro makes his already limited options more limited.

The 'truth' is never set in stone. All we have now are opinions, and those can be broken when you're putting your heart into it. Also, I've always wondered why you go all Ganon in tournaments when you complain like a girl about his matchups and try to pass them off as facts.

And I've always wondered why you act like such a coward when it comes to using Ganon in his tougher match-ups while being, what seems like, positive.


Points aside, by this time tomorrow, I will have reached the 'epitome of manhood' age of 21. I'll be going out and I expect to have added three dimensions of manliness when I come back.[/QUOTE]

 

[Sovereign]

Let me just mention what I've noticed and love about Ganon the most: People fear him, literally. People are truly intimidated by a good Ganon, and this plays really well to a Ganon player's advantage. A lot of people think Ganon as a 2-D character, but when they see you whoop up on someone else they begin to second guess themselves and their mind is distracted. During competitive play(offline preferably) people tend to make quite a few mistakes that they normally wouldn't make against Ganon, even simplistic ones.

I've watched a few vids of Kalm agaisnt some of these respectable and good players, and notice they all make quite a few mistakes, and get mindraped into severe combos. I simply love it.

 

[Swoops]

You girls and your bickering.

Also, am I the only one who actually has success getting around Oli's grab game with wizkick?

 

[Noobicidal]

Swinging the topic back to the social focus for a second;
Hey everyone, it's a pleasure to meet you all.

...

Ahh, ninjaed a few times over.

So alright, this ladder business is placings in tourneys hmm?

I'm also using Ganondorf in tourneys, but I'm in Australia.

I doubt I'll dent the ladder of interstate places like America, but
I can show Ganon off here.

Welcome to the boards. It's nice to see a fresh face here on occasion. I hope you enjoy your stay.

You girls and your bickering.

Also, am I the only one who actually has success getting around Oli's grab game with wizkick?

Assuming that you're the only one who somehow manages to never get pivot grabbed while using WK, then yeah, you are.

 

[Swoops]

Assuming that you're the only one who somehow manages to never get pivot grabbed while using WK, then yeah, you are.

WK goes clean over Oli's grab and d-smash. And about 4 out of 5 times it clanks with u-smash.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

And I've always wondered why you act like such a coward when it comes to using Ganon in his tougher match-ups while being, what seems like, positive.

Clai is smart and does make great posts.

Him switching isn't being a coward, its being smart, you're the moron that goes 100% Ganon and *****es afterwards about matchups. ROB is NOT a horrible matchup. Olimar is 3x harder, and truly unwinnable, ROB can be managed.

I don't need to explain my posts cause I know I'm right, all I can tell you is to fight better Olimar's.

 

[PhantomX]

WK goes clean over Oli's grab and d-smash. And about 4 out of 5 times it clanks with u-smash.

Pivot Grabs have more vertical range, and less recovery time. Olis like pivot grabs. Olis jabs and tilts also beat all of Ganon's moves :\

 

[A2ZOMG]

Vs Olimar, I don't like wizkick...in the event he just chooses to shieldgrab. I just hope he gets baited by my midair jump and I space F-airs and N-airs perfectly. Oh yeah and Flame Choke...if you even land that, so you can D-smash them if they don't DI Up. If they're expecting you to D-smash and DI Up, well chances are they will stand up by default, so then you can Thunderstorm them (or regrab them) for funzies.

Vex, even though I kinda agree with you, I really still don't like the way you discuss matchups, since you really didn't explain anything at all...

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Vex, even though I kinda agree with you, I really still don't like the way you discuss matchups, since you really didn't explain anything at all...

I don't discuss matchups, because I know how to play them, I don't like playing theoryfighter on the internet :/

Honestly I really should explain myself in matchup discussions, but I honestly don't care enough.