Ganon's Beard - General. Social. Rankings.

[Ray_Kalm]

Link is super gimpable and sucks at close range pressure.

However he survives longer than Ike when he DIs correctly. He actually has the tools to keep you out and mixup his walls and camping. His Z-air >>> Anything Ike has for walling and spacing.

Link also has legitimate traps and combos thanks to his projectile setups actually allowing him to control the space necessary to force disadvantageous positions. His F-smash and D-air are more reliable KO options than anything Ike has. F-smash can be spaced reasonably thanks to the extremely massive range (he lunges forward a bit while swinging the sword, and his F-smash has acceptable startup). D-air can be applied pretty effectively for ledgetraps and usually kills earlier than Ike's aerials.

Basically Link can actually camp and space reasonably. Ike has nothing that is reasonable for camping or spacing.

Noobicidal, seriously, I've already proved multiple times that Rollout is not horrible. It moves too fast and has the ability to change directions, and besides that it kills you at like 70-80%. It's probably the best of chargeable rush moves in this game overall (think Luigi's Green Missile, Ike's QD, Pikachu's SideB), and it's very hard for most players to punish those moves with kills since almost everyone has to deliberately jump out of the way if they don't have a projectile. Although in the case of Green Missile and Pikachu's SideB, you should be powershielding those.

Pressure has more value than force in this game. Metaknight, a character with extensive force, only has a neutral against Snake because of how much Snake can pressure AND out-pressure him at the same time.

Link has poor options to deal with pressure. A 7 frame jab, a 12 frame heightless grab, very slow rolls, jump lag, and a mediocre-bad recovery. Anyone but a few can put pressure on Link. Link can only gain an advantage position with a.) a bomb in his hand b.) in position of a fully spaced Fsmash c.) the gust hitbox of his boomerang d.) a properly spaced ZAir. All these are easily avoidable. Bombs are probably the most threatening of the four. ZAir can be jumped over do to the hookshot's poor range. The gust part of the boomerang can be shielded or airdodged.

Link puts himself in as much vulnerable positions as Ike. Links only true projectile combos are with his bombs/Zair. Boomerang/arrows should never hit you up close due to their horrific start-up lag.

Ike and Link both have around the exact same killing potential, what puts Link down is that he HAS to setup his kills with his easily avoidable projectiles - Link has to work a lot harder to get a kill. On top of that, he is much more easily pressured than Ike, and could be gimped much earlier.

Camping & spacing does not make a character better than the other.

 

[A2ZOMG]

RedX, I've already read that thread thoroughly and I probably understand it better than you do. =)

 

[-RedX-]

Then why continue to theorycraft so heavily when, according to you(which is probably true), most players aren't capable of doing most things discussed in theorycrafting, in actual matches?
Try to be reasonable, smashers are not robots(maybe M2K is lol), nobody can probably play a perfect game.

I'll just say this, at complete perfect play, higher tiers won't be losing to anything low.
But then again, complete perfect play is stupidly hard to achieve obviously.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Then why continue to theorycraft so heavily when, according to you(which is probably true), most players aren't capable of doing most things discussed in theorycrafting, in actual matches?
Try to be reasonable, smashers are not robots(maybe M2K is lol), nobody can probably play a perfect game.

I'll just say this, at complete perfect play, higher tiers won't be losing to anything low.
But then again, complete perfect play is stupidly hard to achieve obviously.

RedX, you misunderstand, most players ARE capable of doing the things I mentioned (or more specifically, Pierce7d mentioned before me).

They just haven't spent enough time becoming GOOD.

Yes, we are not robots, but we are capable of improving and learning (even the best players generally still have a good deal of room to improve in this game). The reason why I theorycraft is because I'm telling you what is actually possible to do if you wish to get better.

The only mistakes that people should make in high level play are being on the losing end of Rock Paper Scissors guessing games essentially, which includes the exchange of hits between viable pokes, the outcome of certain mixup traps that force a commitment to dodge, things like that. Smash has a number of occasions where it is in fact impossible to be perfect due to the limitations of reaction time (10-12 frames), and I will not deny this.

HOWEVER this does not change the fact that there are some options that most players are not being optimal about. The average player for this game sucks and has not spent enough time practicing the right things.


@Ray Kalm

Yeah, on the ground it is easier to get away with stuff on Link's shield true since tether grabs are usually just fail in general against good characters. But juggling Link on the other hand is MUCH MUCH harder. Link's N-air and D-air have respectable startup. Link's faster fall speed makes him a fair bit less reactable when descending, and he has reasonably good B reversal options (arrow cancel is also useful when landing), while Ike has huge commitment on EVERY ATTACK he does in the air. Link also has a better spotdodge (3 frames faster than the average spotdodge), and his fairly lengthy D-smash is reasonable on block.

Actually approaching Link is harder than approaching Ike. Link's stuff isn't powershieldable on reaction nearly to the extent at which Ike's stuff is, and he has aerials that have more tolerable landing lag. Link's U-tilt (and to a lesser extent F-tilt/F-smash/U-smash) anti-airs the **** out of tons of stuff. When you approach Ike, all you have to do is powershield the aerial and dash in to punish (or shieldgrab the anticipated Jab). Dashing in and shielding really doesn't work nearly as easily on Link.

And while Link does have significant trouble scoring kills due to being setup reliant, the situation is really not any better for Ike. He has to rely on setups as well due to how slow and committed his stuff is, only Ike has fewer good ways of setting up and controlling space. Ike is slower in the air than Link (in terms of attack options) and of course lacks the control that Link's projectile game provides.

I think you mentioned jump lag. I'd like to point out that Ike also has just as much jump lag as Link, although Ike does have slightly better rolls.

And I really think you're downplaying bombs quite a bit. The ability to generate an item is fundamentally by far one of the most useful options in the entire game due to how godly item disposal options are.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

RedX, you misunderstand, most players ARE capable of doing the things I mentioned.

They just haven't spent enough time becoming GOOD.

Yes, we are not robots, but we are capable of improving and learning. The reason why I theorycraft is because I'm telling you what is actually possible to do if you wish to get better.

The only mistakes that people should make in high level play are being on the losing end of Rock Paper Scissors guessing games essentially, which includes the exchange of hits between viable pokes, the outcome of certain mixup traps that force a dodge, things like that. Smash has a number of occasions where it is in fact impossible to be perfect due to the limitations of reaction time (10-12 frames), and I will not deny this.

HOWEVER this does not change the fact that there are some options that most players are not being optimal about. The average player for this game sucks and has not spent enough time practicing the right things.


@Ray Kalm

Yeah, on the ground it is easier to get away with stuff on Link's shield true since tether grabs are usually just fail in general against good characters. But juggling Link on the other hand is MUCH MUCH harder. Link's N-air and D-air have respectable startup. Link's faster fall speed makes him a fair bit less reactable when descending, and he has reasonably good B reversal options, while Ike has huge commitment on EVERY ATTACK he does in the air. Link also has a better spotdodge (3 frames faster than the average spotdodge), and his fairly lengthy D-smash is reasonable on block.

Actually approaching Link is harder than approaching Ike. Link's stuff isn't powershieldable on reaction nearly to the extent at which Ike's stuff is, and he has aerials that have more tolerable landing lag. Link's U-tilt (and to a lesser extent F-tilt/F-smash/U-smash) anti-airs the **** out of tons of stuff. When you approach Ike, all you have to do is powershield the aerial and dash in to punish (or shieldgrab the anticipated Jab). Dashing in and shielding really doesn't work nearly as easily on Link.

And while Link does have significant trouble scoring kills due to being setup reliant, the situation is really not any better for Ike. He has to rely on setups as well due to how slow and committed his stuff is, only Ike has fewer good ways of setting up and controlling space. Ike is slower in the air than Link (in terms of attack options) and of course lacks the control that Link's projectile game provides.

I think you mentioned jump lag. I'd like to point out that Ike also has just as much jump lag as Link, although Ike does have slightly better rolls.

And I really think you're downplaying bombs quite a bit. The ability to generate an item is fundamentally by far one of the most useful options in the entire game due to how godly item disposal options are.

Link's much harder to juggle, I agree.

Link may be harder to approach, but that's only because of the threat the execution of his moves give you, rather than the moves themself, which, once again, aren't that good once you know how they work and revolve.

In terms of predictability & mindgames, Ike can get kills off much easier than Link.

Ike has jump lag, yeah, but Ike is generally a lot faster at getting out of the way of pressure and could attack back with much more ease.

Also, just to add, in terms of stopping approaches, Ike's dash attack does a very good job - almost always safe on shield, hard to react to, and could get the opposing character off-stage.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Link may be harder to approach, but that's only because of the threat the execution of his moves give you, rather than the moves themself, which, once again, aren't that good once you know how they work and revolve.

Really? Firstoff you have to keep in mind that Link has faster startup and less ending lag than Ike on most moves. Ike's only advantage on most of his moves is having slightly more range, although Link has projectiles.

In terms of predictability & mindgames, Ike can get kills off much easier than Link.

Yeah, with what?

He's really not easily landing a Smash or most of his aerials on you ever especially if you save B reversals and midair jumps for optimal moments (and what is he doing on whiff? Not much). His B-air is kinda alright in terms of speed and range, but killing at 114% center of FD no DI reeeeeealy isn't early enough. While Link's D-air comes out fairly quickly and can kill people at about 90-100% depending on stage positioning, and besides, used as a ledgetrap, it can punish every getup pretty easily besides the really risky ledgeroll.

Ike has jump lag, yeah, but Ike is generally a lot faster at getting out of the way of pressure and could attack back with much more ease.

I really don't understand this at all. You should explain in more detail.

Also, just to add, in terms of stopping approaches, Ike's dash attack does a very good job - almost always safe on shield, hard to react to, and could get the opposing character off-stage.

Again I really don't understand this. The only time I see Ike players ever using Dash attack is to combo out of B-throw, or to punish bad retreats/whiffs. It's a horrible move otherwise, and it is in fact extremely unsafe on shield (-30 on block, which is enough for virtually every character to dashgrab out of shield).

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Really? Firstoff you have to keep in mind that Link has faster startup and less ending lag than Ike on most moves. Ike's only advantage on most of his moves is having slightly more range, although Link has projectiles.

Yeah, with what?

He's really not easily landing a Smash or most of his aerials on you ever especially if you save B reversals and midair jumps for optimal moments (and what is he doing on whiff? Not much). His B-air is kinda alright in terms of speed and range, but killing at 114% center of FD no DI reeeeeealy isn't early enough. While Link's D-air comes out fairly quickly and can kill people at about 90-100% depending on stage positioning, and besides, used as a ledgetrap, it can punish every getup pretty easily besides the really risky ledgeroll.

I really don't understand this at all. You should explain in more detail.

Again I really don't understand this. The only time I see Ike players ever using Dash attack is to combo out of B-throw, or to punish bad retreats/whiffs. It's a horrible move otherwise, and it is in fact extremely unsafe on shield (-30 on block, which is enough for virtually every character to dashgrab out of shield).

I wasn't comparing Link's moves with Ike. Faster ending/start-up lag is irrelevant. You can avoid about anything Link whiffs up if you learn how to deal with the false threat he's causing you.

Well, I was aiming for Ike's BAir, FF spikes, UAir, and MAYBE USmash there. And no, Link's DSmash is horrible in comparison to Ike's BAir. It also doesn't kill at 100%, you can live up to 173% (exactly) as Ganon with proper DI against it. Ike has more aerial speed, and speed in general to land a kill move with predictability/mindgames than Link has with setups.

Dash attack is insanely quick for a move with it's range. It punishes a lot of stuff which most other moves cant, and for the stuff it can't punish, there's jab. Link lack at punishing more than Ike.

 

[Z1GMA]

The only thing keeping Ike from beeing Z-Tier is his Jab.

Imagine Ike but with Ganon's Jab.
Oh, boy, would he be worthless...

Ganon with a similar Jab to Ike's, though...
Instant Middle Tier.

Link's DSmash is horrible in comparison to Ike's BAir.

Yup.
If you get killed by Link's Dair, you're basicly clumsy.
You can see it coming miles before its Hitbubble comes out.

 

[A2ZOMG]

lmao Kalm and ZIGMA, you just started talking about completely different things.

I'm really not sure how I'm supposed to reply when I talk about D-air, and you switched that with D-smash instead...and at any rate Ike's B-air is mediocre. It only has good startup and some okay horizontal reach, but an extremely short hitbox, a weak ability to autocancel, and massive aerial ending lag. As for Link's D-smash, it might not kill very well, but it's a pretty safe move that is good out of spotdodge.

Ike's Dash attack is like a short ranged projectile, except without any of the safety on block. Like a projectile, easy to see coming and can be powershielded on reaction as long as you don't make unnecessary commitments.

But yeah Ganon with a move like Ike's Jab that lets him respond to spotdodges reliably. Yeah, he would be sick.

 

[Hobs]

The only thing keeping Ike from beeing Z-Tier is his Jab.

Imagine Ike but with Ganon's Jab.
Oh, boy, would he be worthless...

Now let's put Ike on the same level as ganon and take away his sword. Now he has a jab and throws. God tier in the making.

Spoiler

off-topic!

 

[Ray_Kalm]

No, you're on topic according to this thread's title, Hobs.

A2, were you not talking about Dsmash? I must've gotten confused between the two.

DAir could never actually be 'mindgamed' onto someone unless you're in a bad position.
Or unless it's setup, but that wouldn't be mindgaming.

 

[fromundaman]

Hahahaha, I find it funny that you just assume that every player in the SBR actually knows what they're doing.

Yeah a good percentage of them might. But what proof do you have that each member isn't a player that suffers from a lack of skill/knowledge in important areas?

10x this. Take M2K for example. For the longest time, the only MU in this game that he actually knew was the MK ditto, since he thought that was the only useful one. He also has no idea what low tiers do (he played random stamina lightning FFAs while drunk the morning after a tournament, and literally had no idea what most characters did, asking people, for example, what Lucas' Dsmash was and such.

That being said, there are some SBR members who know what they're talking about. Also, keep in mind that everyone, with no exception, is biased to a certain degree.

I've spent uncountable hours combined on the Brawl boards and on my Wii learning frames, hitbox comparisons, strategies, ATs, and doing video analysis for every character in this game. I am quite convinced that I in fact know more than several members of the SBR. I'm really not a horrible player either, I just lack good recent tournament results.

This is both a good and bad thing. While it has made you an informed, smart debater, and you generally know what you're talking about, it has also made you arrogant, and you seem to think what you say is more correct than what others do.

That being said, having 90% of a board disagree with you doesn't make you wrong...

And the AC on U-air is basically useless. F-air's IASA frames still means it has like over 20 frames of landing lag or something, which is ultimately punishable by anyone who has good reactions. You don't have to PS Ike's Jab to punish it, just shieldgrab once it touches your shield and even Ganon will grab it.

I really don't know his frame data, just what it seems like when I play against Ikes. If they space well, I know some characters cannot shieldgrab the jab, for example.

CF moves faster and ATTACKS faster, so he can do stuff that bypasses reaction time limits. You are NOT going to PS his options nearly as consistently, and he punishes much more reliably. YOu also completely ignored how his grab game is superior. Ike can't do **** off of grabs besides that obscure B-throw combo. Falcon however is able to follow up into virtually any aerial after a throw, and with the correct space control, gets virtually guaranteed followups (you have to note that his U-air when fresh enough can be used as a KO move). B-air and D-smash are good kill moves that are safe on block.

I'll admit I don't play any top Falcons, but of those I do play, I rarely have trouble PSing their moves; especially their kill moves, which are all kind of easy to see coming.
His grab game is indeed superior. I didn't mention it because that was such a given that I didn't feel it needed mentioning. Ike's grab game is garbage. The wall infinite is all he has from grabs really.
That being said, look at the flip side: Falcon has worse shield pressure than Ike, which is saying something, very few OoS options (though this is true of both), very low range, and no disjoincts (except his Bair and Uair), and much more trouble killing.

Powershielding can limit her camping yes, but Samus is MUCH better at walling and zoning and avoiding pressure. She also has good strings and combos, a few of which lead into moves that can be used for KOs, and she also has a solid recovery and above average edgeguarding to make up for a lack of KO power. I really don't see how Ike compares to Samus at all. And in the actual matchup, Samus can shieldgrab Ike out of pretty much anything besides the Jab (which can be UpBed or N-aired as I recall), and he does not have the tools to really consistently get in range to Jab safely.

I also know what Samus can do. I play against a REALLY good Samus a lot.

I'll admit I have not played many Samus' recently (used to play one a lot, but that was 5 months ago, so the metagame might have evolved), but her UpB OoS is easy to SDI. In terms of OoS options, she doesn't really have much either. She does, however, have strings and combos, which, as you said, can lead into KO moves, if you don't know how to DI them. The problem is, you're assuming people know how to play against Ike and PS everything, but don't know how to DI against Samus.
Her main kill moves are Fsmash, Dtilt, charged shot (to punish spotdodges), and possibly Utilt, with Dair offstage as a possibility. Fsmash and Dtilt, she can combo into, if you let her, but the problem is that if she uses them to combo, they won't be fresh to kill, and vice versa.
For walling, yes and no. Powershielding Zair seems to hurt her about as much as powershielding Fair does to Ike, except that Ike can buffer a jab to rely on if he spaces correctly. That being said, Zair is superior in that it ACs, can be done out of airdodges, I believe has longer range, and Samus has more mobility when doing it.

I find A2's posts to actually to be smart and something which others won't think of. He actually provides a bunch of proof and evidence as to why he believes something, and his proof and evidence turn out to be rather appealing to his argument.

Seconded.




Oh, and you left out one of Link's heavy disadvantages: His heavy weight makes him retardedly comboable, if the opponent can get in. Also, to be fair, Dair has a lot of landing lag, and gets punished heavily if shielded/powershielded. Otherwise though, I agree wigth you.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

A2, what's your say on the Rob Vs. Ganon match-up?

 

[GeneralWoodman]

well im no ganon pro, but this guide really helped me in my last tourney
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go4LdTouksI&feature=rec-fresh+div-f-2-HM

 

[A2ZOMG]

A2, what's your say on the Rob Vs. Ganon match-up?

Well it sucks.

ROB basically can do everything Snake can do to Ganon with less raw power, but more consistency. Ganon is too easy for ROB to wall out with tilts, projectiles, grabs, and F-smash/D-smash.

And the D-air spike is viable on Ganon's recovery.

ROB can basically spotdodge on reaction->grab for most of the match and win that way. Aside from the fact that he just covers Ganon's approach options just too well.

 

[Sovereign]

Well guys, here are the tourney results from my most recent tourney. I'm planning on going to VG Boot Camp, next. My name is under Flame, by the way.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9558152&postcount=1

 

[Breezy]

2-stocked another IC at a tourney yesterday.
Just sayin.
I also played a set with Mr. Doom. I lost, but I 3 stocked him on bf. Third game he got me in that **** F-Throw infinite against a wall on delfino and just crushed all my morale.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Breezy, props to you for being a godlike player.

I mean it's great and all that you can pretty much defy how matchups are supposed to work. =P

 

[Divilenta]

Breezy, props to you for being a godlike player.

I mean it's great and all that you can pretty much defy how matchups are supposed to work. =P

I thought that all Ganon mains were supposed to be able to do this.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Doesn't change that the ICs are totally unwinnable for Ganon, he has no favorable matchups, and other stuff.

My Ganon is sick, but the more people learn how to play against me, the more I realize that he really just isn't versatile enough to do anything. Understanding this, I am training a friend of mine to get competitively competent at Brawl (he mains Pit), and my goal is to make it so that he defeats my Ganondorf consistently (I beat him in like 90% of matches currently).

 

[Superspright]

Ganon just has to hit the ICs 5-6 times a stock to kill. ICs need to hit considerably more. Feasibly if one was psychotic enough to read their opponents mind and maybe shads into buffered sidesteps can do something? No idea, but maybe with the human element it is possible? How else is he 2-stocking ICs?

Did they even chaingrab you? Or wall you?

 

[Clai]

I mean it's great and all that you can pretty much defy how matchups are supposed to work. =P

Piercing the heavens with a Warlock Punch. That is the Ganondorf way.

(Or it's just somebody was able to blast through all the negativity about Ganon and finally prove that he isn't a hopeless character like people love to believe he is)

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Breezy, if you're aiming to earn more respect, try getting videos of your matches up. It helps a lot more.

A2, well, Rob is another 'impossible' for Ganon, it may be his hardest match-up.

Characters with projectiles that cause you to approach more often , Rob & Falco for example, are much harder for Ganon than, say, Olimar or Sheik. Rob & Falco have the ability to use their projectiles at much more points of a match which will cause Ganon to approach them more often, whereas other hard match-up characters, like Olimar or Sheik, do not. For Ganon to do well in a match he has to be given much more opportunities to approach, otherwise he can't play well at all. (As examples) Rob, Snake, and Falco allow this much less than Olimar, Ice Climbers, Sheik or Yoshi. Having to approach MORE often hinders Ganon as a character, Ganon won't be able to function (or play out his game) well. Because of being forced to approach more often, Rob and Falco become Ganon's worst two match-ups (excluding Ics though, due to their infinite). If Rob/Falco camp properly, Ganon should never be able to approach them, and even if he manages to, these character could just easily whiff up a dodge (Falco's Fwrd-b, Robs spotdodge) to avoid any interactions, putting Ganon at a bad place again. Rob could also just BAir when Ganon gets close, which'll beat out Ganon in priority, range, and it'll auto space.

I don't see Sheik, Olimar, and a bunch of other characters being a tougher match-up for Ganon than Falco or Rob.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

I think Ganon vs ROB is very winnable for Ganon.

35:65 at worst imo.

 

[CT Chia]

Breezy, if you're aiming to earn more respect, try getting videos of your matches up. It helps a lot more.

A2, well, Rob is another 'impossible' for Ganon, it may be his hardest match-up.

I find characters with projectiles that cause you to approach more often, such as Rob & Falco, to be much harder than, say, Olimar or Sheik. Rob & Falco have the ability to use their projectiles at much points of a match which will cause Ganon to approach more often, whereas other hard match-up characters, like Olimar or Sheik, do not. For Ganon to do well in a match, he has to be given much more opportunities to approach, otherwise he can't play well at all. (As examples) Rob, Snake, and Falco allow this much less than Olimar, Ice Climbers, Sheik or Yoshi. Having to approach MORE often hinders Ganon as a character. Because of being forced to approach more often, Rob and Falco are (and should be) Ganon's worst two match-ups (excluding Ics due to their infinite). If Rob/Falco camp properly, Ganon should never be able to approach them, and if he manages to, these character could just easily whiff up a dodge (Falco's Fwrd-b, Robs spotdodge) to avoid any interactions putting Ganon at a bad place again. Rob could also just BAir when Ganon gets close, which'll beat out Ganon in priority, range, and it auto spaces.

I don't see Sheik, Olimar, and a bunch of other characters being a tougher match-up for Ganon than Falco or Rob.

I guess Ganondorf's haven't learned of the R button yet.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

The 'R' button doesn't get Ganondorfs anywhere, it'll only stop and protect them. Ganon doesn't want this. He wants to approach the opponent with ease. Airdodge and spotdodge doesn't help since those will only give Rob a chance to punish him.

 

[Laem]

did u ppl know japan has MK-ganon as 6-4?

 

[A2ZOMG]

ROB doesn't really force approaches nearly as effectively as Olimar. You can powershield his projectiles on reaction. Against Olimar, it's really hard for Ganon to deal with Pikmin latches.

ROB's B-air also happens to be powershieldable on reaction keep in mind. Dash in -> powershield B-air isn't exactly hard to do, but it requires some balls.

However, ROB does consistently wall Ganon out with his tilts, F-smash/D-smash, projectiles, and superior grab range.

Sheik has projectiles that really can't be powershielded consistently. She ducks under a lot of Ganon's stuff, **** combos and gimps him, and Ganon has ZERO OPTIONS to counter her ridiculous mobility. If you whiff ANYTHING, she will punish it, and you can't realistically hit her at all in the first place due to how perfectly she can strike at Ganon's blindspots and shut down his close up game.

 

[Clai]

A2, well, Rob is another 'impossible' for Ganon, it may be his hardest match-up.

Characters with projectiles that cause you to approach more often , Rob & Falco for example, are much harder for Ganon than, say, Olimar or Sheik. Rob & Falco have the ability to use their projectiles at much more points of a match which will cause Ganon to approach them more often, whereas other hard match-up characters, like Olimar or Sheik, do not. For Ganon to do well in a match he has to be given much more opportunities to approach, otherwise he can't play well at all. (As examples) Rob, Snake, and Falco allow this much less than Olimar, Ice Climbers, Sheik or Yoshi. Having to approach MORE often hinders Ganon as a character, Ganon won't be able to function (or play out his game) well. Because of being forced to approach more often, Rob and Falco become Ganon's worst two match-ups (excluding Ics though, due to their infinite). If Rob/Falco camp properly, Ganon should never be able to approach them, and even if he manages to, these character could just easily whiff up a dodge (Falco's Fwrd-b, Robs spotdodge) to avoid any interactions, putting Ganon at a bad place again. Rob could also just BAir when Ganon gets close, which'll beat out Ganon in priority, range, and it'll auto space.

I don't see Sheik, Olimar, and a bunch of other characters being a tougher match-up for Ganon than Falco or Rob.

First of all, Olimar is going to play exactly the same way as Falco or ROB, just chuck Pikmin and wait for Ganon to approach and then when Ganon approaches, grab/smash him out of it because Ganondorf doesn't have anything that is low enough to hit Olimar while being fast enough that Olimar player can't react to it. Played correctly, I could say that Olimar is even a worse matchup for Ganon than the IC's because Olimar is virutally unhittable if he stays on the ground and camps you. Also, Sheik's going to camp you with needles and chain, and if Ganondorf ever passes that, Sheik will either run away and repeat the process or bait an attack from Ganon and just Ftilt him 15 times until it's time to just slap Ganon and gimp him.

I agree that characters that can camp proficiently will murder Ganondorf, but ROB's not the type of character that can do it. His projectiles can be shielded on reaction, and its aerials are manageable (It's not that hard to tell when ROB's going to b-air, its startup is noticable enough that you can just shield it and proceed with your approach strategy. So what if you can't punish it? ROB can't infinitely b-air you because it's going to reach the ledge eventually).

Also, Snake's defensive game can get worked around. It isn't 2008. Snake has flaws in his camping and we can exploit them.

For ratios, I'd say 30-70 ROB and 25-75 Snake.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Pikmins aren't nearly as though as Rob's projectiles.

Pikmins latch on to you. They don't stop you.

Rob's projectiles may be powershieldable, but powersheilding/sheilding only makes it worse for Ganon. It doesn't really get you anywhere, rather the projectiles will push you back. By the time Ganon can get in range again, Rob will have already regenerated his projectiles. Gyros can also be held, whichs makes jumping/aerial approaching much harder.

BAir's powershieldable on reaction? So what? Ganon can't punish it even if he saw it coming beforehand, and Rob can just keep whiffing up more.

Rob completely shuts down Ganon's approaches, beats him in range, speed AND priority. He basically has all the proper moves he needs for the match-up to be impossible.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Not only do Pikmin latch on you, Purple Pikmin actually HIT you.

It's much harder for Ganon to do anything to deal with Olimar's camping, and he will take damage. Ganon doesn't have to exactly take damage when ROB camps. Olimar has the advantage in potentially timing Ganon out.

ROB's projectiles are unsafe at midrange when powershielded. Olimar's projectiles are not unsafe at midrange. And even Ganon can try to Dash attack or Dashgrab out of powershield against ROB's B-air.

ROB is horrible for Ganon, but he doesn't reach the status of unwinnable to nearly the same extent other characters do. You have technical answers to his stuff. You don't have technical answers to Olimar, Sheik, or the Ice Climbers safe strategies in any shape or form when they play correctly. On BF you don't have technical answers to G&W's stuff due to how gay his D-tilt is on that stage for Ganon.

 

[Breezy]

Ganon just has to hit the ICs 5-6 times a stock to kill. ICs need to hit considerably more. Feasibly if one was psychotic enough to read their opponents mind and maybe shads into buffered sidesteps can do something? No idea, but maybe with the human element it is possible? How else is he 2-stocking ICs?

Did they even chaingrab you? Or wall you?

I never got grabbed
Wait, I got grabbed once but got out of it. And yes, I did get walled. Right of the bat. 3, 2, 1, GO! Desynched falling and rising blizzards, mixed in with Ice blocks. You know what I did? NOTHING. I camped back. I played patient. Ice blocks are NOT hard to avoid. Eventually he just made some dumb mistake and I stomped the **** out of him. He airdodged into the ground and i got another free stomp in. He airdodged again and I F-Smashed his punk *** off of my stage. I then proceeded to edgeguard him with Uairs.

Thats more of a basic scenario. Another one is this. Alot of times, rolls and airdoges are read, I hit the follower off stage, but not the leader. I act like I'm going to go and try and gimp the offstage follower and the leader gets scared. He runs in to try and stop me or to help the follower recover. At this point the tides are turned. Instead of us getting nervous because we have 2 things to focus on instead of one, it's THEM who have 2 things to focus on. Take advantage of this and get to murdering the careless popo. If he jumps off stage to try and Up-B with nana, gimp his punk ***! If he just tries to hold you off from the edge by taking you 1 on 1, get some gerudo **** goin off on him and murder the lonely IC with your tech chasing abilities.

ICs suck. 90:10 Ganon's favor

 

[Bahamut777]

I think Ganon shouldn't approach, even if the world is ending and it's a Ganon ditto on tourney finals.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Not only do Pikmin latch on you, Purple Pikmin actually HIT you.

It's much harder for Ganon to do anything to deal with Olimar's camping, and he will take damage. Ganon doesn't have to exactly take damage when ROB camps. Olimar has the advantage in potentially timing Ganon out.

ROB's projectiles are unsafe at midrange when powershielded. Olimar's projectiles are not unsafe at midrange. And even Ganon can try to Dash attack or Dashgrab out of powershield against ROB's B-air.

ROB is horrible for Ganon, but he doesn't reach the status of unwinnable to nearly the same extent other characters do. You have technical answers to his stuff. You don't have technical answers to Olimar, Sheik, or the Ice Climbers safe strategies in any shape or form when they play correctly. On BF you don't have technical answers to G&W's stuff due to how gay his D-tilt is on that stage for Ganon.

And how often will those purple Pikmins come at you?

Ganons should be treating Olimars Pikmins like Fox's laser. They will cause you harm, but they're also easily 'avoidable'.

It's more than just Rob's camping that makes him impossible. It's the way he's able to use & combine his projectiles. The only method Olimar has, which can gain advantage of your approaches, are pivot grabs, he can't do much more. Olimar's also limited to when and how he can use his projectile. Most of the time, he'd never want to be throwing Pikmins at you off-stage. Rob doesn't really share these problems, instead, he's ABLE to camp you extensively off OR on stage.

Rob's projectiles are never unsafe at midrange, not against Ganon at least. Unless the Rob rolls on to you, it doesn't have to worry.

Stages with platforms actually make it tougher against Robs & Falcos, and easier against Sheiks and Olimars. You're at a disadvantage on a platform against Rob/Falco due to it making you more vulnerable to getting hit than vice-versa. This is the exact opposite for Olimar/Sheik.

 

[Clai]

Pikmins aren't nearly as though as Rob's projectiles.

Pikmins latch on to you. They don't stop you.

Pikmin rack up damage and force Ganondorf to approach Olimar. They're also a lot easier to spam than ROB's projectiles are. As soon as one Pikmin hits, Ganon has to approach, and it's essentially gg for Ganon as Olimar can beat out every single one of Ganondorf's approaches.

Rob's projectiles may be powershieldable, but powersheilding/sheilding only makes it worse for Ganon. It doesn't really get you anywhere, rather the projectiles will push you back.

What Ganondorf wants to do with avoiding ROB's projectiles is a matter of where Ganondorf is on the stage compared to ROB. If ROB is far away from Ganon, Ganon can shield the projectiles with ease, as ROB can't follow up on its projectiles. If Ganondorf is closer to ROB, then spotdodging/ SHAD may be the better option. It's a matter of being aware of your surroundings and positioning youself so that ROB won't control the stage.

By the time Ganon can get in range again, Rob will have already regenerated his projectiles. Gyros can also be held, whichs makes jumping/aerial approaching much harder.

By holding a Gyro, ROB's options become pretty limited. It can either lazer, glide toss or toss it while being in the air. It may be better for Ganon to just back off and make sure that ROB can't follow up on tossing the gyro. Also Ganondorf can just as easily pick up the gyro as well, and Ganondorf has an interesting item game of his own.

BAir's powershieldable on reaction? So what? Ganon can't punish it even if he saw it coming beforehand, and Rob can just keep whiffing up more.

As long as Ganondorf doesn't get hit for damage, nothing matters. If you know Ganon can't punish it, don't try to punish it. Simple, really.

Rob completely shuts down Ganon's approaches, beats him in range, speed AND priority. He basically has all the proper moves he needs for the match-up to be impossible.

ROB does not shut down Ganondorf completely. Not nearly like other characters can. Control the stage and make sure you aren't placed in too many hazardous situations. It's very possible, ROB just doesn't have the moveset to ensure that Ganondorf will always be at a position disadvantage.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Pikmin rack up damage and force Ganondorf to approach Olimar. They're also a lot easier to spam than ROB's projectiles are. As soon as one Pikmin hits, Ganon has to approach, and it's essentially gg for Ganon as Olimar can beat out every single one of Ganondorf's approaches.

About every character forces Ganon to approach. The ones that can stop and/or put you at a disadvantage position are more threatening than the ones that can't. At the highest levels of play you should be more afraid of the threat of the execution of a move that can put you at a disadvantage by stopping or hiting you than a move that is least likely to do so. Also, NAir can stop Olimar's Pikmin before they latch onto you.

As I said before, Olimar will mostly rely on pivot grabbing to stop your approaches, and those can be beaten. Rob on the otherhand has a much more variety of options to stop your approaches, some of which include using his rangeful tilts to halt you, SH NAir to cancel all you can do, and even spotdodging.

What Ganondorf wants to do with avoiding ROB's projectiles is a matter of where Ganondorf is on the stage compared to ROB. If ROB is far away from Ganon, Ganon can shield the projectiles with ease, as ROB can't follow up on its projectiles. If Ganondorf is closer to ROB, then spotdodging/ SHAD may be the better option. It's a matter of being aware of your surroundings and positioning youself so that ROB won't control the stage.

Being forced to shield at far range to something that can easily be thrown again will awfully hurt you, especially if your Ganon.

I would think you would know how much of a disadvantage SHADing or spotdodging puts Ganon. Yes, they might be one of the better options, but that doesn't mean anything if it doesn't help.

By holding a Gyro, ROB's options become pretty limited. It can either lazer, glide toss or toss it while being in the air. It may be better for Ganon to just back off and make sure that ROB can't follow up on tossing the gyro. Also Ganondorf can just as easily pick up the gyro as well, and Ganondorf has an interesting item game of his own.

Rob having a Gyro in it's hand is more threatening than it not holding one. Yes, it's moves become more limited, but they also become much faster and more threatening. Compared to not having the Gyro in it's hand, it's now able to mindgame you with lasers more fluently since you'll be trying to back off to avoid getting hit. It can also glidetoss you and combo into that.

Chances of a Ganon picking up the Gyro are rare. It won't be happening in a competitive match. Even if it does, as like you were saying, the Gyro will make Ganon more limited, he won't be hitting Rob with it (dodging's not hard to do).

As long as Ganondorf doesn't get hit for damage, nothing matters. If you know Ganon can't punish it, don't try to punish it. Simple, really.

That makes matters worse, Clai. BAir does more than not get punish. It sends Rob away from you, which isn't what you want.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ray... are you following me, I just made a thread about threat>execution in tactical, and assuming that grab pressure = "blockstrings that you subsistute a grab for", it's something I've been thinking on a lot recently.



As far as the threats, Rob has a lot of poking moves (jab, ftilt, dtilt), these are quick, and because Ganon has a combination of low disjointedness and high start-up which makes him particularly vulnerable to getting interrupted by opponent's moves while doing anything, so in general that makes Ganon very limited.


[/two cents]

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Ray... are you following me, I just made a thread about threat>execution in tactical, and assuming that grab pressure = "blockstrings that you subsistute a grab for", it's something I've been thinking on a lot recently.



As far as the threats, Rob has a lot of poking moves (jab, ftilt, dtilt), these are quick, and because Ganon has a combination of low disjointedness and high start-up which makes him particularly vulnerable to getting interrupted by opponent's moves while doing anything, so in general that makes Ganon very limited.


[/two cents]

I have. And, if you're saying you want to make a thread about "Grab Pressure", then go ahead.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I have. And, if you're saying you want to make a thread about "Grab Pressure", then go ahead.

No, I wasn't, just commenting, but it's a good idea, wanna work on one together?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

You go and make it on your own.

It's not something anyone made, but a credit will be good enough.