Ganon's Beard - General. Social. Rankings.

[Kimchi]

If your opponent is stupid enough to roll into an fsmash, sure. Otherwise, no. Ganon is no longer bottom tier in lag, he is feculent matter tier.

This made me laugh lol.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Depending on how bad your opponent is, yes. However, he loses out on too many things to call his gains a boon. It is technically easier to buffer with him online, but I'm referring to serious lag, not playing the guy the next state over lag.

Ganon's WiFi gains could be said of any character.

Except Ganon needs it more and it benefits him more regardless, and I'm talking about almost to no visual lag, and about 8-12 frames of input delay, which is normal input delay. Gains can be said for others, but others don't kill people in 5 hits.

 

[Vermanubis]

Except Ganon needs it more and it benefits him more regardless, and I'm talking about almost to no visual lag, and about 8-12 frames of input delay, which is normal input delay. Gains can be said for others, but others don't kill people in 5 hits.

Ganon kills in 5 hits in the absolute best case scenario and on medium-weight characters. It's rare enough that said scenario shows itself, let alone on a WiFi setting. It's easier to make a mistake against Ganon, yes, definitely. But not to the point where it can be called a benefit in the face of the horrible detriments he faces with it.

 

[*JuriHan*]

Except since reaction time is practically doubled because of input delay,

um, no. It's harder to react to things and even punish on wifi. Why do you think Jigglypuff's rollout is actually viable online? Hell why do you think Jigglypuff is buffed online?

 

[Ganonsburg]

The only reason Ganon may be buffed more online than other characters is because other characters have less to buff.

It's like taking a test, and then doing test corrections. The original right answers are worth a full point, and the corrected right answers are worth 1/2. Ganon scores a 10% originally, does corrections, and gains 45% on top of the 10%, now getting 55%. Ike scores a 20%, does corrections to gain 40%, and now has 60%. Ganon was able to get more from the corrections (Wifi), but is still worse overall than Ike. Now take this, and apply it to every character.

So aside from maybe one or two exceptions, the tier list is still about the same on WIFI.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

um, no. It's harder to react to things and even punish on wifi. Why do you think Jigglypuff's rollout is actually viable online? Hell why do you think Jigglypuff is buffed online?

I meant as in twice as long of a reaction time, instead of having a reaction time of 10 frames, it becomes a reaction time of like 20 frames.

Verman, while I respect your opinion I don't agree, it becomes easier for ganon to hit because of reaction time increased therefore giving him a huge buff in my opinion, but I'll stop, Wifi doesn't matter.

 

[fromundaman]

Depending on how bad your opponent is, yes. However, he loses out on too many things to call his gains a boon. It is technically easier to buffer with him online, but I'm referring to serious lag, not playing the guy the next state over lag.

Ganon's WiFi gains could be said of any character.

That's not what he gets online.

Ganon is a character who, among other things, gets wrecked by powershielding, shielding, and spotdodging (kind of like Ike actually...). These things are all harder to do effectively in lag. Yes, it is true that everyone gets that benefit, but Ganon/Ike's hits count for a lot more, and online, you can see them coming from a mile away and still not be able to do anything about them due to lag.





Also, A2Z, even the average player should have a rudimentary ability to tech, PS, etc. I mean, I am a pretty bad player, but all of those are things I can effectively do. The thing is, powershielding does NOT completely shut Ike down if he knows how to space correctly and abuse his IASA frames on just about everything.
I'm not going to say that he's a good character. In fact, he's bad and I'd agree that Link is better (but his learning curve is insanely higher, and as such, to reach a point with Link where you can be better than the average Ike, it takes a lot more skill and patience.), but I'm sorry, you can't say characters like Samus, CF, Zelda, etc. are better.


Ganonsburg... try playing Mario online and tell me it doesn't change anything

 

[*JuriHan*]

^ amazing sig. That reminds me... I promised to prank him.

 

[Kishin]

Every character gets massively worse from wi-fi due to the inability to even use game mechanics such as buffering and powershielding correctly. Only certain playstyles benefit from lag such a d-smash spam metaknight or tilt-happy snake. If you wanna argue on how you think Ike is, go to the Ike board (he's not 3rd worst btw).

 

[san.]

A2 knows so little about the character, it's kind of embarrassing how he vehemently spouts this nonstop for months and months. Anyways, come back to the ike boards and stop lurking kimchi.

Online isn't even a factor, since it's like a guessing game because of the input delay, which could make some characters more predictable, but harder to react to. Not to mention the frustration of messing up buffers, etc.

 

[PhantomX]

Ganon is great online. Not being punished or avoided on reaction *****. It's also awesome b/c no one can DI on WiFi either. Sadly, neither can I, so I die sooner too XD

Really though. I play against Bored on a regular basis (PRIMARILY with Ganondorf), and he's one of the best Ikes. I've also played against Mr. Doom, who's great too, as well as The Brettster and Arturito Burrito and Slaps. I play as Wario, a character who's greatest asset is his ability to move quickly in the air b/c he has no range. I make it a habit to SDI out of multihit moves and to powershield into wafts, SDI jabs to the ground so I can powershield/grab, you name it, I do it. If you're going to tell me I am incapable of playing this game well, you're full of ****.

Ike has the range of the gods on his moves, and an up b hitbox that doesn't even make any sense. Sure, he only has one option on the ground, but that option is AN AMAZING ONE. His recovery, assuming good DI, is very solid as well, being exploitable mostly by the higher tiers with ridiculous recoveries themselves. Ike's moves, even his extremely long range ones, are also all autocancelable, so even when you powershield them you're too far away to do anything about it, b/c he will just jab (which also has huge range).

It may be difficult to accept that he only has few good options but is still quite decent, but hey, D3 doesn't either, and he's a top tier character.

Honestly, if the upper echelon of this game didn't exist, Ike would easily break high tier. As he fits into the current metagame though, he's unviable, sadly.

 

[-RedX-]

I make it a habit to SDI out of multihit moves and to powershield into wafts, SDI jabs to the ground so I can powershield/grab, you name it, I do it. If you're going to tell me I am incapable of playing this game well, you're full of ****.

My gawd.....PhantomX is awesome.

 

[@HomE]

Ganon is great online. Not being punished or avoided on reaction *****. It's also awesome b/c no one can DI on WiFi either. Sadly, neither can I, so I die sooner too XD

Really though. I play against Bored on a regular basis (PRIMARILY with Ganondorf), and he's one of the best Ikes. I've also played against Mr. Doom, who's great too, as well as The Brettster and Arturito Burrito and Slaps. I play as Wario, a character who's greatest asset is his ability to move quickly in the air b/c he has no range. I make it a habit to SDI out of multihit moves and to powershield into wafts, SDI jabs to the ground so I can powershield/grab, you name it, I do it. If you're going to tell me I am incapable of playing this game well, you're full of ****.

Ike has the range of the gods on his moves, and an up b hitbox that doesn't even make any sense. Sure, he only has one option on the ground, but that option is AN AMAZING ONE. His recovery, assuming good DI, is very solid as well, being exploitable mostly by the higher tiers with ridiculous recoveries themselves. Ike's moves, even his extremely long range ones, are also all autocancelable, so even when you powershield them you're too far away to do anything about it, b/c he will just jab (which also has huge range).

It may be difficult to accept that he only has few good options but is still quite decent, but hey, D3 doesn't either, and he's a top tier character.

Honestly, if the upper echelon of this game didn't exist, Ike would easily break high tier. As he fits into the current metagame though, he's unviable, sadly.

*stands up*


*slow clap*



well said sir... well said..

 

[Noobicidal]

It's also awesome b/c no one can DI on WiFi either.

Arrogance aside, I can DI extremely well online.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganon is great online. Not being punished or avoided on reaction *****. It's also awesome b/c no one can DI on WiFi either. Sadly, neither can I, so I die sooner too XD

Really though. I play against Bored on a regular basis (PRIMARILY with Ganondorf), and he's one of the best Ikes. I've also played against Mr. Doom, who's great too, as well as The Brettster and Arturito Burrito and Slaps. I play as Wario, a character who's greatest asset is his ability to move quickly in the air b/c he has no range. I make it a habit to SDI out of multihit moves and to powershield into wafts, SDI jabs to the ground so I can powershield/grab, you name it, I do it. If you're going to tell me I am incapable of playing this game well, you're full of ****.

Quite on the contrary, you are one of few players that I know that actually plays competently and at least at the standard that very few players currently meet, but SHOULD be meeting. I respect you for that.

Ike has the range of the gods on his moves, and an up b hitbox that doesn't even make any sense. Sure, he only has one option on the ground, but that option is AN AMAZING ONE. His recovery, assuming good DI, is very solid as well, being exploitable mostly by the higher tiers with ridiculous recoveries themselves. Ike's moves, even his extremely long range ones, are also all autocancelable, so even when you powershield them you're too far away to do anything about it, b/c he will just jab (which also has huge range).

His Jab isn't even safe on block, and has enough lag between hits that Bowser's slow grab is able to punish it. And lol no, Ike has no respectable autocancels. His B-air has a SH autocancel that requires a lot of commitment, and everything else he's forced to take landing lag. His attacks all last extremely long in a bad way besides Jab, which is shieldgrabbable.

And really, it's not that hard to shieldgrab Jab combos as long as you know they are coming. Which in Ike's case, is blatantly obvious. One of my competitive friends grabs me out of various Jabs quite a bit, so I know that this is a solid tactic.

It may be difficult to accept that he only has few good options but is still quite decent, but hey, D3 doesn't either, and he's a top tier character.

Ike doesn't even have "a few good options". He has a few kinda powerful options that are easy to see coming and punishable if you know what punishes them. And it's extremely difficult for Ike to do follow ups on anyone good due to how slow all his moves are. And D3 honestly I think is going to drop a few places in the future, and I can't see this character staying all the way up at the top tier.

Honestly, if the upper echelon of this game didn't exist, Ike would easily break high tier. As he fits into the current metagame though, he's unviable, sadly.

But Ike doesn't win against anyone except ridiculously bad characters. And some of those supposedly bad characters do actually beat him.

TAlso, A2Z, even the average player should have a rudimentary ability to tech, PS, etc. I mean, I am a pretty bad player, but all of those are things I can effectively do. The thing is, powershielding does NOT completely shut Ike down if he knows how to space correctly and abuse his IASA frames on just about everything.
I'm not going to say that he's a good character. In fact, he's bad and I'd agree that Link is better (but his learning curve is insanely higher, and as such, to reach a point with Link where you can be better than the average Ike, it takes a lot more skill and patience.), but I'm sorry, you can't say characters like Samus, CF, Zelda, etc. are better.

Good PSing eliminates all of Ike's options to do anything to you. He can't close ground because his approach is complete crap, so he's forced to wall you, which eventually gets punished by powershielding the aerial and punishing (or punishing on normal block when he tries to close ground), shieldgrabbing him when he tries to Jab you to get you out (or outspacing his Jab for that matter, which virtually every character has an option for).

Zelda is in fact worse than Ike, I already said that.

CF is NOT worse than Ike. CF unlike Ike can move and approach safely on defenses. CF's Jab game basically is about as effective as Ike's for the most part, but his grab game is significantly better, not to mention his ability to combo and pressure in general. CF also has kill moves that are safe on block. D-smash, B-air, and U-tilt are overall better than the stuff Ike has. Falcon's F-smash also has huge range thanks to the stutter step, and Falcon's Up-B out of shield is a very useful punish option that can kill at high percents.

Samus is really not a terrible character for the most part. This character is STUPIDLY good at dealing damage safely, good to the point where it makes her capable of handling Snake competently. You can't powershield Z-air on reaction, and it has no landing lag, and it has the ability to cancel airdodge. Yeah sure, her other projectiles are powershieldable, but they also have low ending lag meaning that she has options to stop you from just approaching with impunity, especially once you realize her F-tilt has MORE RANGE than Marth's, and she has a solid Up-B out of shield that helps pick up the slack for a mediocre shieldgrab. Bombs make it VERY hard to pressure Samus safely, and this character has an ability to combo into moves that can eventually kill you. This character is also very heavy, ungimpable, and has formidable edgeguarding. And at any rate she destroys Ike easily too as well.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

Huh? Samus?

Yeah, Samus is amazing. I'll prove it to anyone who disagrees (practical proofs).

 

[Z1GMA]

All this talk about Ganon beeing good at WIFI... I don't even feel like I want to...

Sure, Ganon's moves are harder to punish on reaction.

As for the Ganon-user... Good luck in trying to punish other characters' moves on reaction.
Like if Ganon didn't already have to go through heII to punish even a semi-laggy attack.

Ganon even has problems punishing his own attacks in dittos.
As a matter of fact, Ganon Dittos aren't 50:50... They're 30:70.

 

[Vermanubis]

All this talk about Ganon beeing good at WIFI... I don't even feel like I want to...

Sure, Ganon's moves are harder to punish on reaction.

As for the Ganon-user... Good luck in trying to punish other characters' moves on reaction.
Like if Ganon didn't already have to go through heII to punish even a semi-laggy attack.

This.

Every boon Ganon is claimed to get on WiFi is the very same thing everyone else gets. Ganon just gets pushed below further thanks to his reliance on buffering turning into a nightmare. You try to buffer a dair OoS, and you spotdodge, then you try to dtilt, but spotdodge again instead, then your dair turns into dsmash after trying to buffer another dair, and you just get caught up in the never-ending buffer chain.

Ganon no longer has powershields to worry about to a degree, but people are quick to forget that Ganon's powershield is his lifeline, and he doesn't have it either. This means no defense and no even semi-semi-safe approach, especially against projectile users. Don't even get me started on landings.

Ganon even has problems punishing his own attacks in dittos.
As a matter of fact, Ganon Dittos aren't 50:50... They're 30:70.

Oh, God, yes. I fought some Canadian Ganon a few days ago and I just stopped trying halfway through. Froze every five seconds, slowed down frequently and the delay was just awful. You end up just not caring and are left to just dair and hope it hits.

 

[Vermanubis]

Also, guys, as absurd as it may sound, I have a question. Due to unfavorable circumstances, I've... never been to an offline tournament. >_>

But due to said circumstances improving dramatically, I'm now able to utilize my money for a bit of fun for once. I plan on attending a tournament soonest I can. So, if anyone could just give me the basic gist of what a tournament is like and what to expect, that'd be great. Basically, what I'm looking to know is:

1) What are some good ways to play relaxed? Whenever I'm in a competitive setting, I always nerve out and play like crap. Granted I've always done well on the AiB ladder, I don't do as well as I know I can. Maybe that's just because it's WiFi though.

2) If you do horribly and lose your matches in both winners and losers brackets, what do you do? Are there typically extra TVs/Wiis to do friendlies on with others who have lost?

 

[A2ZOMG]

This.

Every boon Ganon is claimed to get on WiFi is the very same thing everyone else gets. Ganon just gets pushed below further thanks to his reliance on buffering turning into a nightmare. You try to buffer a dair OoS, and you spotdodge, then you try to dtilt, but spotdodge again instead, then your dair turns into dsmash after trying to buffer another dair, and you just get caught up in the never-ending buffer chain.

Buffering is easy, and Ganon benefits more from buffer commitments on wifi because if they work, opponent gets owned. If you're messing up buffers on wifi, that's just because you don't know how to analyze input lag or you're suffering from fairly uncommon 2 second input lag.

Ganon no longer has powershields to worry about to a degree, but people are quick to forget that Ganon's powershield is his lifeline, and he doesn't have it either. This means no defense and no even semi-semi-safe approach, especially against projectile users. Don't even get me started on landings.

Marth and G&W become beatable on wifi due to SPACING becoming an unviable strategy. Similarly, a lot of characters suffer the same way on wifi. Mainly Toon Link and ROB are worse on wifi for Ganon.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Yeah, let's talk about Ganon's pros on wifi and completely ignore his weaknesses. Suddenly, you realize, dealing with projectiles, hitting OoS, and predicting becomes a lot harder. Both Ike and Ganon suffer online. Generally, any character with poor OoS options, poor juggling, no reliable kill moves, and problems against projectiles will suffer greatly on wifi.

Afro Twist's Link gave me hell in the low tier tournament; plucking out bomb after bomb, and throwing out one Z-Air after another. I only managed to beat him due to our huge skill gap.

As for Ike being the 3rd worst character, I completely agree with A2. Though, I wouldn't put him as the 3rd worst, but rather bottom 5. I don't agree with Zelda being bottom 3. I'll explain why I think this, in a bit.

 

[@HomE]

A2Z your fighting the whole world here....

It seems you have some interesting opinions about the tier list, but I'm going to have to disagree...

It seems arrogant to assume you know more about a specific character then the SSBB community and the SBR. The players that meet this "standard" you are talking about ARE the SBR, It just so happens that they determine Ike's place on the tier list.

Its difficult for me to comprehend how your knowledge of a character you do not main, trumps the collective knowledge of the SBR.

________________________________
Fun Facts!

Ike is M2K's low tier main....

Ike did MUCH better then every other character in the low tier tourney (these are the best players for each main, I don't want to hear about how ****ty wifi is)

Ike's Fair is the longest range aerial in the game

Spoiler

These fun facts are NOT part of my argument, they are just FUN FACTS...

____________
Edit:

Kalm could you elaborate on why you think Ike is bottom 5?
I'm very curious about your opinion because i know you have alot of info about the match-up/character in general..

 

[fromundaman]

Just want to say, while I agree that PSing ***** Ike in general, you're kind-of somewhat wrong about Ike's aerials. Uair can AC if you time it right I believe, and I know Fair has a lot of IASA frames, so if well spaced, can be hard to punish (though if you PS it AND the buffered jab, you can punish him, and once you're in his range, he just gets *****.).

For CF though... every argument you previously made for Ike applies pretty much. PSing ***** most of his options too. Also, his Utilt is kind of low on startup as well (though no ending lag is good, and the move itself is rather awesome.).


I'm not saying Samus is horrible (though powershielding wrecks her too, though maybe to a slightly lesser extent), just not as bad as Ike IMO. I do have a good idea of what she can do though; I've played a fair number of Samus mains/seconds, and dabbled in her a bit myself.

 

[DLA]

Also, guys, as absurd as it may sound, I have a question. Due to unfavorable circumstances, I've... never been to an offline tournament. >_>

But due to said circumstances improving dramatically, I'm now able to utilize my money for a bit of fun for once. I plan on attending a tournament soonest I can. So, if anyone could just give me the basic gist of what a tournament is like and what to expect, that'd be great. Basically, what I'm looking to know is:

1) What are some good ways to play relaxed? Whenever I'm in a competitive setting, I always nerve out and play like crap. Granted I've always done well on the AiB ladder, I don't do as well as I know I can. Maybe that's just because it's WiFi though.

2) If you do horribly and lose your matches in both winners and losers brackets, what do you do? Are there typically extra TVs/Wiis to do friendlies on with others who have lost?

1) Don't be relaxed during tournament matches. You need to get the adrenaline pumping; it makes you play better. You gotta stay collected though; never go into a match thinking you're going to lose. It sounds cliche, but it's true. It may be intimidating when you're fighting a good player with a top tier main, but you gotta believe in yourself. Trust yo instincts. If you bite off more than you can chew, THEN CHEW IT. PISS LIGHTNING, **** SUCCESS.

2) That's not how it works. It's supposed to go "you make it to winner's finals, win, then go onto grand finals, win. Profit. Light the money on fire, toss it on the ground, and go home." If you happen to get disqualified for ****** too hard, then yes, there are usually setups that you can play friendlies on. Good luck finding someone who wants to play with you though.

 

[Clai]

and she has a solid Up-B out of shield that helps pick up the slack for a mediocre shieldgrab

I love forcing Samus to up-B so I can SDI out of it and hit her with Ganon's up-air/back-air/forward-air fist of justice.

To answer Vernubis' questions:

1) What are some good ways to play relaxed? Whenever I'm in a competitive setting, I always nerve out and play like crap. Granted I've always done well on the AiB ladder, I don't do as well as I know I can. Maybe that's just because it's WiFi though.

I can't answer this question honestly because I suffer through the same thing. I punched a wall in a tournament after losing to a Yoshi main with my Marth secondary. I get nervous all the time and I play terribly whenever I start brackets, and that's honestly the worst thing that can happen to you as a Ganon main. Wish I could help you, but I need to help myself first.

2) If you do horribly and lose your matches in both winners and losers brackets, what do you do? Are there typically extra TVs/Wiis to do friendlies on with others who have lost?

I suggest grabbing a few players and get food or something. Otherwise, just talk with them and ask questions about how you can improve your performance. Other players' insights can really help you out.

Usually there aren't any setups available for friendlies until the tournament is almost over. Keep that in mind.

As for Ike, I actually believe Ganon goes even with him. Why? Because both characters are playing with the same purpose- get a damage lead and then shieldcamp the balls off the other opponent. Really, the character who has to approach first loses, and neither character has the tools to reliably force approaches. Yes Ike has good range on his aerials, but all of them, save B-air, are avoidable on reaction, and B-air should be rediculously easy to see coming (Ike's back is turned to you and he's in the air, whatever will he do?). Ike's jab game is solid, yes, but if Gamon's in Ike's jab range, you're doing it wrong. Ike doesn't have the mobility to comfortably place himself in range to jab Ganon, and none of his aerials set him up for his jab combos if Ganon's playing outside Ike's jab range. Ike can potentially do damage once he's inside, but his combo-ability is terrible, while Ganondorf, even though it's harder for him to get inside, can put out a great amount of damage once he has momentum.

To put it more condensely:
-Both characters suck at approaching
-Both characters can space decently
-Either character can just shieldcamp the other and proceed to victory.

Before anyone bashes me for not having experience, I have played Kimichi's Ike before, so I know what it's like to play an elite Ike main.

 

[PK-ow!]

I've been powershielding on wifi for a while, and I finally learned to tech, too.
Oh, and I too have the Gods' DI on wifi. It's somehow better than my offline DI.

At the same time, I became able to tech offline. I guess it's because I've been teching in a variety of lag conditions.


EDIT2: Ooh, this connects to the Ike discussion: I managed to power shield all three hits of Ike's jab, but it was at a ledge and the shieldpush still knocked me off. So, you know, that's possible.
You have to shield grab the kick, right? The punch starts up too fast after the sword.

1) What are some good ways to play relaxed? Whenever I'm in a competitive setting, I always nerve out and play like crap. Granted I've always done well on the AiB ladder, I don't do as well as I know I can. Maybe that's just because it's WiFi though.

It's Ganon. You are the manliest player there.
Remember. Keep changing. Watch what people do. If you can't concentrate and tell what your opponent is doing, like Hell don't keep doing the same things yourself.

There is perfect play, but then there's play that's good enough to beat "this guy." Your opponent isn't theory fighter. He's a guy, he's using all the gimmicks he's learned, plus the spacing he's practiced, plus trying to read you. The answer to a gimmick invariably doesn't look like so-called good play, but it's what works, so it is correct.


Playing safe won't win games. If you're problem isn't that you hole up when pressured, ignore this. You have to do things that force an action. Ganon's in trouble because if you start always trying to fight back - "trade hits" as it were - you're going to lose, and you're going to lose as hard as your opponent knows how to combo Ganon's incapable ***. Rather, you need to have in mind what position you want to get, and you need to go for it, while making sure to at least some of the time stay safe while predicting (or reading) the counter-counter.
(the position is generally dtilt -> juggle; some playstyles of matchup inexperienced players are vulnerable to Choke)



I was playing a Zelda a couple days ago that was annoying me with an apparently invulnerable jumping strategy. Full hops, weaving, and air dodging, all very well timed, spaced, and she knew her Lightning Kicks. She knew combos into Lightning Kick positioning, blew my mind.
I never really answered the full hopping. I tried NAirs and FAirs and such but I couldn't control the air space. What I could do was notice that every time, it always came down to the same stuff when she would stay on the ground. I FSmashed her out of spot dodge all dai, killed at 80.


Ganondorf has a neat trick. He doesn't have spacing because of 0 mobility, but his own range in some way simplifies your opponent's options to just two kinds of things: Going aggro, and camping/baiting your ***. Ganon can't counterattack when people go aggro, but he has a great roll, and from *some* positions can trade or clank. He also has a jab that's, of course, faster than (most) smashes and deals 7%. Conversely, up close, people who go defensive are using some particular defensive option, all of which but one Ganon can **** if he reads it and delays his action. The exception is retreat (by walking/running). Retreat you are supposed to just take. Patiently follow your opponent to the edge, and there, you *HAVE* to be the one to land the next hit. Above all, don't leave yourself open to something that trades your places. It's fine to start pushing back to the other end.


You asked for tips on playing relaxed, and I gave you a Ganon meta primer. What I'm saying is, being relaxed is part of who you are, and all you can do to help it is focus on doing what you're doing, and doing it well. Don't think about how well you're doing, think about doing it well. Eyes on the opponent, your mental hand completely aware of where Ganon is and what he can do.
Now, make the guy you're looking at die. Make him queasy and fearful and pathetic. Put the fear of Ganon in him by not making any mistakes. Put the fear of Ganon in him by not getting hit. It doesn't matter how long it takes. You only need seven hits. Don't get impatient. But don't let up on him. Destroy his soul by making him err. Do things, yes, you know how to answer, but he doesn't. Do it until he proves he knows how to answer it. But this isn't a lesson. No, this is murder. You are there to kill him. He's not allowed to hit you, because you are a God (and a king). But he presents a credible threat; you're not entitled to beating him. You're there to prove you can beat him. Which you do because you main the manliest character that ever existed in any fighter game. Ever. Also one who has the universe-crushing power of creator gods.

All you have to do is beat what your opponent is doing. Stop being afraid. Represent what you know. Take names, murder competitors.


And when you win your brackets round, laugh. Laugh because you ****ing deserve it. It's impossible to be considered an ******* by that alone when you're pimping the Man.


God Ganon I love Ganon.





Murder

 

[A2ZOMG]

A2Z your fighting the whole world here....

It seems you have some interesting opinions about the tier list, but I'm going to have to disagree...

It seems arrogant to assume you know more about a specific character then the SSBB community and the SBR. The players that meet this "standard" you are talking about ARE the SBR, It just so happens that they determine Ike's place on the tier list.

Hahahaha, I find it funny that you just assume that every player in the SBR actually knows what they're doing.

Yeah a good percentage of them might. But what proof do you have that each member isn't a player that suffers from a lack of skill/knowledge in important areas?

Pierce7d, one of the newer members of the SBR made an excellent post in the topic about Japan and Brawl where he explains exactly what I did about how the average competitive player is just awful. Ike thrives in a game where most players have trouble deliberately powershielding, establishing traps(if you're not getting free damage after U-throwing Ike, you have a problem), edgeguarding/recovering correctly (if you get hit while offstage against Ike, either you had TERRIBLE DI, or you failed massively), implementing good zoning, establishing and mixing up optimal walls (Ike has virtually no mixups for walling however), not making technical errors (average Brawl player makes MORE technical errors than the average competitive MELEE player. As for Ike, it's pretty hard to make a technical error with him however, and he likes players who make technical errors), the list goes on. There's really only a small percentage of players who really can do all these things competently, and these are things that Pierce7d believes that the average player should have mastered by this point.

Its difficult for me to comprehend how your knowledge of a character you do not main, trumps the collective knowledge of the SBR.

And what does the SBR know lol? I'm asking you why you think they would know better.

I've spent uncountable hours combined on the Brawl boards and on my Wii learning frames, hitbox comparisons, strategies, ATs, and doing video analysis for every character in this game. I am quite convinced that I in fact know more than several members of the SBR. I'm really not a horrible player either, I just lack good recent tournament results.

Fun Facts!

Ike is M2K's low tier main....

Ike did MUCH better then every other character in the low tier tourney (these are the best players for each main, I don't want to hear about how ****ty wifi is)

Ike's Fair is the longest range aerial in the game

Spoiler

These fun facts are NOT part of my argument, they are just FUN FACTS...

Yeah, so? Everyone knows those things.

Ike is HIGH TIER on wifi anyhow. F-air becomes a viable POKE on wifi since nobody can block it on reaction when input lag is a factor. Seriously...the amount he benefits from wifi is ridiculous.

Just want to say, while I agree that PSing ***** Ike in general, you're kind-of somewhat wrong about Ike's aerials. Uair can AC if you time it right I believe, and I know Fair has a lot of IASA frames, so if well spaced, can be hard to punish (though if you PS it AND the buffered jab, you can punish him, and once you're in his range, he just gets *****.).

And the AC on U-air is basically useless. F-air's IASA frames still means it has like over 20 frames of landing lag or something, which is ultimately punishable by anyone who has good reactions. You don't have to PS Ike's Jab to punish it, just shieldgrab once it touches your shield and even Ganon will grab it.

For CF though... every argument you previously made for Ike applies pretty much. PSing ***** most of his options too. Also, his Utilt is kind of low on startup as well (though no ending lag is good, and the move itself is rather awesome.).

CF moves faster and ATTACKS faster, so he can do stuff that bypasses reaction time limits. You are NOT going to PS his options nearly as consistently, and he punishes much more reliably. YOu also completely ignored how his grab game is superior. Ike can't do **** off of grabs besides that obscure B-throw combo. Falcon however is able to follow up into virtually any aerial after a throw, and with the correct space control, gets virtually guaranteed followups (you have to note that his U-air when fresh enough can be used as a KO move). B-air and D-smash are good kill moves that are safe on block.

I'm not saying Samus is horrible (though powershielding wrecks her too, though maybe to a slightly lesser extent), just not as bad as Ike IMO. I do have a good idea of what she can do though; I've played a fair number of Samus mains/seconds, and dabbled in her a bit myself.

Powershielding can limit her camping yes, but Samus is MUCH better at walling and zoning and avoiding pressure. She also has good strings and combos, a few of which lead into moves that can be used for KOs, and she also has a solid recovery and above average edgeguarding to make up for a lack of KO power. I really don't see how Ike compares to Samus at all. And in the actual matchup, Samus can shieldgrab Ike out of pretty much anything besides the Jab (which can be UpBed or N-aired as I recall), and he does not have the tools to really consistently get in range to Jab safely.

I also know what Samus can do. I play against a REALLY good Samus a lot.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

First off, these are the characters who I believe are in the bottom 5 in the following order:

E Tier
Samus (at the bottom)

F tier
Ike
Link
Falcon

G Tier
Ganon

Ike is a pretty straight forward character in terms of gameplay. He's a character with good weight, fresh power, and massive range.

People need to understand; Ike's the only character who lacks the force of grab pressure. As the metagame evolves, grab (moves) will become more and more recognized for their value and will become the main focus of 'predictment and mindgames'. Ike will be the only odd character out because of this.

Even Ganon obtains a threatening grab pressure game (flame choke), it may be dodged on reaction but it also punishes spotdodges and a variety of other mistakes (mistakes will always be made in competitive play). Falcon's dash grab speaks for itself.

Now, having a bad grab pressure game isn't Ike's only flaw. All of Ike's move are avoidable and powershieldable and most of which on reaction. Ike barely has a bait and trap game, especially with as lagful (in terms of start-up and/or ending) aerials as he has. His common bait and trap strategies becomes very obvious and easy to avoid (FAir > Jab as one of the most common). Ike basically lacks the ability to force you to let go of your shield, and, if it weren't for his jab, he wouldn't have the ability to do so at all. Jab becomes the answer to all of Ike's questions, while it may be a ridiculously good one, it doesn't make up for all his awful cons.

Above all this, Ike is so very easily juggeable. Force him to airdodge, or to do any aerial, and then punish him with what you can. The only move which may get Ike away from being juggled is his NAir, which too is easily baited by a fox trout. Ike becomes so very vulnerable after an air dodge that it may mean the death of him, especially if the opposing character can bring him into the air over and over again. You've just got to learn when, and when not to get close to Ike and whether to force him to airdodge or attack. Ike's recovery isn't any good either, and you wouldn't one as such after considering how vulnerable you are in the air.

 

[PhantomX]

How does Ike have a bad grab pressure game? And what does that even mean? He can grab you just like anyone else out of spotdodges or reads... he's not slow on the ground and it has decent range and the average 6 frame startup. Also, if you're talking about dodge or roll punishes off of failed techs... it doesn't matter b/c his jab has such huge range and speed it's not an issue.

As for A2Z... unless you somehow dodge/regular shield the first jab and powershield the second jab, you're not going to be punishing Ike, especially if they're spaced to the extent of the jab (huge range)... it comes out faster than average grabs. A few character have jabs faster than his, but, again, they have to be within range.

Also... how are you going to juggle Ike when he has a dair that's about twice his size AND autocancels? It's very risky business, especially after they've DJed away.

It's like no one here has faced an Ike that knows how to play this game.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Kalm, I really fail to see how you think Link is worse than Ike. Falcon is to an extent understandable, since nobody besides Ally really does well with Falcon.

How does Ike have a bad grab pressure game? And what does that even mean? He can grab you just like anyone else out of spotdodges or reads... he's not slow on the ground and it has decent range and the average 6 frame startup. Also, if you're talking about dodge or roll punishes off of failed techs... it doesn't matter b/c his jab has such huge range and speed it's not an issue.

As for A2Z... unless you somehow dodge/regular shield the first jab and powershield the second jab, you're not going to be punishing Ike, especially if they're spaced to the extent of the jab (huge range)... it comes out faster than average grabs. A few character have jabs faster than his, but, again, they have to be within range.

Also... how are you going to juggle Ike when he has a dair that's about twice his size AND autocancels? It's very risky business, especially after they've DJed away.

Ike's grab is frame 7 by the way (keep in mind, frame 7 grabs cannot shieldgrab most other Jab combos between hits, and his grab range is only average at best), and no, you can just BLATANTLY shieldgrab Ike out of Jabs if he touches your shield at any range. You can do this with Ganon easily as well, because of Ike's extended hurtbox.

Powershield the D-air on reaction. It's not hard to do, and you can just walk out of range and dash in after he does it. His D-air doesn't have a respectable autocancel anyway, I don't know what you're talking about. The autocancel starts 18 frames after the hitbox ends, and you are NOT buffering that. That is horrible. His D-air has very little horizontal range anyhow and massive startup.

 

[@HomE]

@ A2Z

a few responses from the Ike boards after I invited them to join our conversation, I might have mentioned your name:

#1 i would, but I'm trying to keep my blood pressure level low. Stupid people seem to raise it rather quickly.

He's stupid. He's a troll. Everyone should place him on their ignore list until he's banned. Anyone who takes him seriously should be laughed off of the board. Any character board that listens to him at all for MU discussions are seriously hampering themselves and their metagame developement (poor Mario board, and G&W board IIRC). End of discussion.

#2 Haha, sooner or later, A2 is will be a virus trying to convince every character board that Ike is the 3rd worst.

#3 I'm not so much angry at A2 as I am flat out embarrassed for him. I would have assumed that most people would, typically, shut up about a character they don't play. It's basic common sense. Of course this guy posts about how he's some amazing player in every one of his posts so it clearly doesn't apply to him.

#4 I consider anyone who goes around in every MU discussion with Ike going "You can just PS all of his attacks and predict the jab." to not be theorycrafting, but trolling. He's presenting it as fact (Even though I have never heard of an Ike shut down by someone PS camping. Not even someone at the top of the game like Ally did that to Doom. It doesn't happen, it's irrelevant.), will not shut up about his "facts" He doesn't use Ike or Kirby, what the flip was he doing in our MU discussion if he wasn't trolling?

You are a very likable person it seems....

I honestly didn't even read your response... I'm not trying to change your opinion (thats obviously a lost cause) but you are apparently infamous for spewing your opinions all over.. well... just about anything. You remind me of that guy at the party on coke who no one wants to get stuck talking to..


Good day

 

[A2ZOMG]

And I'll add that Rykoshet and Renegade, two REALLY good Ike mains also agree Ike is complete garbage.

Rykoshet recently played against ADHD and had 80% of his F-airs powershielded. Against the ICE CLIMBERS.

Other Ike mains are completely blind to how limited and horrible their character is. Stuff doesn't happen because people don't learn the matchup and do it correctly. The idea is that THIS IS WHAT YOU CAN DO AGAINST IKE if you know the matchup.

Hence why he's the 3rd worst character in the game.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

No PhantomX, I'm not talking about grab tech chases. "Grab Pressure", as how I describe it, is the ability to force and trap the opposing character in shield. While shield being the solution to 3/4th of Ike, he has no way to trap or force you to remain shielding.

A2, I'm assuming you already know why Link is bad, so I won't need to elaborate on that. I personally don't see THAT much of a difference in these two characters, but I find Ike to be a tad bit better. Though, in terms of match-up, Link does beat Ike.

 

[Noobicidal]

obviously a lost cause) but you are apparently infamous for spewing your opinions all over.. well... just about anything. You remind me of that guy at the party on coke who no one wants to get stuck talking to..


Good day

He even tried telling the Jiggs that Rollout is a great move.

Rollout is hard to punish with a kill move, so it's an excellent risk/reward gamble

The rest of the post is filled with arrogance and lulz.

 

[A2ZOMG]

A2, I'm assuming you already know why Link is bad, so I won't need to elaborate more on that. I personally don't see THAT much of a difference in these two characters, but I find Ike to be a tad bit better. Though, in terms of match-up, Link beats Ike.

Link is super gimpable and sucks at close range pressure.

However he survives longer than Ike when he DIs correctly. He actually has the tools to keep you out and mixup his walls and camping. His Z-air >>> Anything Ike has for walling and spacing.

Link also has legitimate traps and combos thanks to his projectile setups actually allowing him to control the space necessary to force disadvantageous positions. His F-smash and D-air are more reliable KO options than anything Ike has. F-smash can be spaced reasonably thanks to the extremely massive range (he lunges forward a bit while swinging the sword, and his F-smash has acceptable startup). D-air can be applied pretty effectively for ledgetraps and usually kills earlier than Ike's aerials.

Basically Link can actually camp and space reasonably. Ike has nothing that is reasonable for camping or spacing.

Noobicidal, seriously, I've already proved multiple times that Rollout is not horrible. It moves too fast and has the ability to change directions, and besides that it kills you at like 70-80%. It's probably the best of chargeable rush moves in this game overall (think Luigi's Green Missile, Ike's QD, Pikachu's SideB), and it's very hard for most players to punish those moves with kills since almost everyone has to deliberately jump out of the way if they don't have a projectile. Although in the case of Green Missile and Pikachu's SideB, you should be powershielding those.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I find A2's posts to actually to be smart and something which others won't think of. He actually provides a bunch of proof and evidence as to why he believes something, and his proof and evidence turn out to be rather appealing to his argument.

 

[@HomE]

All of his posts are The rest of the post is filled with arrogance and lulz.

/10Fixed's

 

[Noobicidal]

/10Fixed's

Fair enough.

 

[PhantomX]

*sigh* Guess it's time to go back to not bothering about the discussions here.

 

[-RedX-]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=261496
I'll be on my way now.
Also, Ike boards already know Ike is a trash character but we don't think he's 3rd/5th worse.
Not gonna continue on for obvious reasons.