Ganon vs.

[G. Vice]

Yup. You just gotta realize that you're gonna get shined and hit all over the place when you don't make the right decision. Gotta take the beating like a man, and just beat him back when provided with an opportunity.

 

[TommyDerMeister]

Peach is a hooker. I have such a hard time with the matchup.

 

[Pyrostormer]

Peach is a hooker. I have such a hard time with the matchup.

Use your big **** and pound that *****.

 

[DippnDots]

I havent been keeping up with the thread at all but recently i've been falling in love with pivot retreating fairs, they work real well against foxes when you can call their nair approach, among other characters. I havent seemed to space one on falcon yet but there's other options for him.

 

[RestInPeace]

Pivot? If you can tell they're coming in with a Nair, you can just retreating Fair anyway.

 

[DippnDots]

not if your back is to them, say after tapping their shield with a bair, or if they catch your back during a dash dance

 

[RestInPeace]

Ahh I see. I've been doing wave FSmashes. For the same scenarios that you described. I guess pivot Fair is better, but I can't pivot for my life.

 

[-ACE-]

Fsmash is SO SITUATONAL. You should hardly ever use it. Pivot fair is good like in some situations like Dippn said, but if you don't have the time usually retreating bair will suffice.

 

[RestInPeace]

When Falco is pillaring your shield, what do you do?

Does light shielding push you far away enough to grab?

 

[TresChikon]

You can't do anything, just buffer a roll or do a retreating WD OoS.

Lightshielding gives you more shieldstun than normal and is way slower than a regular SG.

You can lightshield if you want to escape, but if you'd rather go for a grab, which is a pretty bad idea if the Falco has half a brain, use your regular shield.

 

[Ulti]

There's a post about this somewhere but I don't remember where it is so I'll try to type it from memory.

So there's basically two ways to grab falco from a pillar, one of which requires Falco to be making a mistake in how he's pillaring and the other you can do regardless of the Falco.

Method 1 (requires Falco to be pillaring poorly): If Falco is dairing high, you can angle your shield up so he hits it earlier and grab between the dair and the shine. If the Falco is particularly poor at pillaring, the timing on this can be pretty lenient, but the risk is that if Falco starts pillaring right (and dairs right before he lands) you get combo'd.

Method 2: I think if you light-shield and shield-DI away from the dair and the shine, and if you do this right, you can grab him out of a perfect pillar. The part I forget is if you have to wait until after the shine to grab falco or not (I think you do) and I still don't know how to shield DI very well (can I just hold a direction while shielding?)

I'm pretty sure that light-shielding alone doesn't provide enough space for a grab opportunity.

While on the subject of countering pillaring, what's the best way to shield to avoid getting shield-stabbing by Falco? Light-shield + down-away Shield DI?

Edit: Ninja'd. Does the shield-DI method not work then? Also, didn't know that about light-shielding.

 

[TresChikon]

Yeah you can actually shield DI the dair away so that the shine won't hit you and you can grab afterwards.

Falco just needs to pay close attention and follow your DI if he is able to catch on.

Against shield pokes, I just try to get out of there, so I angle my shield upwards and time a retreating WD.

 

[-ACE-]

Shield DI away, grab after the shine. It just takes a while to learn the timing. The point of shield DI away is that 1. he won't be able to hit you with any additional jc shines, and 2. if he does hit you, it will be harder for him to get a combo off. Basically this method leaves falco with full jump OoS or WD back. Eventually if you kept doing this he could (technically) start punishing you out of a quick wd back, so I usually mix in a few buffered rolls and they never catch on.

 

[RestInPeace]

WD OoS is too slow with Ganon. I think Light Shield -> OoS aerial or WD grab/jab. I have no Falco's to test this on, so I can't be sure if this works right now.

 

[-ACE-]

I wasn't talking about Ganon WD'ing OoS lol. Reread my post.

 

[da K.I.D.]

can some one give me a quick definition of shield DI and how it helps me beat falco, its my hardest matchup right now...

 

[TresChikon]

There is Smash DI, which allows you to move around during frames of hitlag, likewise, you can input directions during shieldstun to achieve the same affect.

The goal of shield DI'ing Falco's pillar is to avoid the shine and grab afterwards.

I recommend using a hard shield, because there is less shield stun compared to a light shield, making a SG more possible to execute on time.

When you shield a dair, angle away from Falco, not too hard because you may roll, if you did it right, you should be spaced enough to avoid the shine.

Just watch for additional JC shines.

Feel free to Ganon **** now.

 

[DippnDots]

Ganon's shield game is rather essential but keep in mind guys you can do things to not get caught in your shield and against a competent falco getting stuck in your shield exactly what they want. If you pop that bugger up every time they approach they're gonna bait you into retreating or jumping out of it and then punish you even harder.

Consider his short hop, it has a set horizontal distance it can't ever go past, so don't let him get to the point where a short hop lazer puts him directly in front of you. This just requires not committing yourself and keeping on the move. Albeit it's real hard to keep your spacing against falco when he's throwing lazers at you left and right but that doesn't mean it's impossible.

Honestly proper spacing can get around a lot of problems ganon has with higher tier characters.

Not saying never shield or that it's bad, just remember there's always other options and the games about not being read, not how well you play the textbook.

 

[TresChikon]

Yah, it's fine to shield, just be sure you have a good plan to counter his pressure.

I did read something about that whole laser theory spacing thing.

It was too complicated for my understanding though, I guess it'll come with more Falco experience.

 

[DippnDots]

If you have knowledge of projectile motion from physics class, apply it to smash and you'll see what i mean.

When someone jumps, they have to come back down. Same time up as down. In that time you can DI horizontally, since there is a maximum horizontal distance from one short hop, the range is positive and negative x, positive being advancing negative being retreating. Where they end up, Y, will always be between -x and x and never on the outside of.

So if you're beyond positive X at the start of their jump, you can simply shift yourself so that you're new position when they land is >X away from what their Y position will end up being.


Make any sense? I'm bored at 4:45 in the morning. Keep in mind too i'm explaining a point not advising anything on what to do when people short hop.


Edit: Wavelands take a **** on this but I still think it's solid.

 

[TresChikon]

Yeah I get that, the guide broke it down into SHL distances of 1 and 1/2 quantities. 1 being good, while half being not so good.

I just dunno how to utilize that info very well as far as spacing with Ganon to put him in a good position.

 

[DippnDots]

This is all just talk, you eventually get a feel for what options falco has at a certain distance, all characters really. When it comes to controlling your character in this game it's all about feeling it out, you don't have time to think about what you're going to specifically going to do to the control stick. I'm ranting at this point. Only thing im trying to push is, when someone jumps, they've committed themselves to landing in a certain range, and you can always capitalize on commitments. Nicotine, sleep, then back to lurking this place for a few weeks.

 

[da K.I.D.]

if you shield DI away from falco, doesnt that make it easier to shield stab ganon?

 

[TresChikon]

Yes, which is why Ganon doesn't have very many options in his shield and sucks against Falco.

I'm not good with that kinda stuff, so I just buffer rolls or time a WD. Or pick Fox and shine OoS.

 

[RestInPeace]

That's what light shielding is for. Light shielding also pushes you farther from the enemy.

 

[da K.I.D.]

oh snap, thats legit, imma work on this tomorrow. im running a tourney on sat with a falco thats reasonably good, so this is gonna be stupid important

 

[-ACE-]

That's what light shielding is for. Light shielding also pushes you farther from the enemy.

Yeah, but you'd be a lot less likely to get the shieldgrab compared to regular shielding with shield DI away.

 

[da K.I.D.]

awwww.... that blows,

Light shield a pillaring falco = pushed farther away, shine wont hit but ganon cant SG it.

Reg shield + DI on pillaring falco = easier to shield grab but more susceptable to shield pokes during the aforementioned pillar.

sounds like ur kinda boned either way...

 

[-ACE-]

sounds like ur kinda boned either way...

Lol, well sort of.

I kind of feel like grabs are the only way Ganon can stand a chance in this matchup (it's NOT even, I don't care what anyone says), so I'd be more likely to go with the reg shield. To me the increased susceptibility to shield pokes isn't that big of an issue. In the event that it becomes one, you could occasionally forget about shield DI and just buffer a roll when he comes in with a dair. A lot of times just switching up a simple strat like that is enough to keep them guessing.

 

[Magus420]

If you're shield DI'ing (SDI during hitlag and/or ASDI by holding a direction on the frame hitlag ends) with the intent of shieldgrabbing the shine while also outspacing any JC shines that would come out faster than the grab, shifting/angling your shield (this isn't what shield DI is btw) should not even come into play to have increased risk of being shield poked, as you can only move your shield while not in shieldstun. If you're out of stun to be able to start moving the shield you should have already started your grab.

 

[-ACE-]

Nice, I thought all shield DI worked like ASDI, didn't know it mattered during hitlag. Magus please grace the Ganon boards with your presence more often.

 

[RestInPeace]

Question (no one to test this on right now): if you're shield DIing away from a shield pillaring Falco, and mash the A button, will you buffer a roll first or grab first? Grab, right?

If so, then the easiest way to do this is just wait until Falco hits your shield, DI away, mash A.

 

[Magus420]

If you smash away during the shine's hitlag to SDI then hold it to ASDI you won't roll at all, since rolls don't buffer. After hitlag and shieldstun the direction is just being held at that point and it needs to be pressed to trigger a roll.

1) Shield one of Falco's aerials. Doesn't matter if you shield DI this or not, or how far he slides into you as long as he doesn't go all the way through you.

2) Continue holding shield and smash away on the control stick immediately after his l-cancel lag would end and would be connecting the shine on your shield to shield SDI it away, and then continue holding away to shield ASDI away as hitlag ends (and in case you mess up and get hit you'll DI the shine by holding away).

3) Start a shield grab immediately as the shine's shieldstun ends (still hold away the whole time), and you'll grab Falco if he does anything besides WD away, JC grab/u-smash, and jumping forward into an immediate rising n-air if timed near perfectly. Considering you won't be attempting it every single time it's mostly just WD or grab since the u-smash and rising n-air are very unsafe if you don't go for the grab. You should try to time the A button press for the grab, though mashing very fast should work almost as well but you may whiff if they full jump out of the shine where the grab timing needs to be pretty on point.

 

[RestInPeace]

So shield, smack your analog stick away when they shine you, and mash A. Does this work against Fox too?

And does this work with other characters who are shielding (against both spacies).

Thanks Magus.

 

[Magus420]

Doesn't really work well on Fox. You can't outspace his shine since it has more range than Falco's so multishines can still hit you even after a shield SDI, Fox's jump is faster and he can usually jump over the grab in time with a full jump, and his dash is faster so he can dash away in place of a shine after the aerial in more cases than Falco would be able to.

It works with other characters against Falco that don't have slow tether/Zelda grabs and don't have horrible horizontal range like Pikachu, but if their grab range is short vertically he'll have an easier time jumping over it before it comes out.

 

[CluelessBTD]

Interesting fact:

You can buffer a roll by holding the c-stick.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Does anybody have a vid showing what this should look like? (shield grabbing the falco with ShDI)

It will help for me to make sure Im doing it right.

 

[DippnDots]

A real easy way to get a feel for shield di is have mario ledge hop a dair and work on shield di'ing back so that he stays in front of you.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i dont have 2 people to try that with atm, so I would be appreciative of any kind of vids, but when i do practice with people again (tomorrow?) i will deffo try that out.

 

[Magus420]

Interesting fact:

You can buffer a roll by holding the c-stick.

This is as much of a 'buffer' as holding L/R 'buffers' a shield. The input is never stored at all. It's just an action that is triggered on both button press or button held input. In this case it's c-stick press or pressed while in shield action -> roll/dodge/jump depending on the direction.

Things that actually do buffer are getup attacks and double jumps out of certain knockback animations which will buffer it up to 20 frames from the time you press it.