Ganon vs.

[-ACE-]

Smartest Falco in the Souf RIGHT HERE

LOL

 

[CluelessBTD]

BTW, i've always liked your avatar[/url]

Now that I finally got a hold of Adobe photoshop, I'm gonna make myself a really sick sig. Just wait. Also, I liked that wizard foot you got on Ace's side-B, haha.

Btw, match vs Mouf's peach http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVEGI4DX2hg

 

[Dorsey]

thanks man. i love the WF spike, the hitbox owns. I like the drop zone dair attempt midway through that match on peach too haha--I would have went for the same thing.

 

[CluelessBTD]

thanks man. i love the WF spike, the hitbox owns. I like the drop zone dair attempt midway through that match on peach too haha--I would have went for the same thing.

Probably would have worked if I didn't fast fall...or did he air dodge? I don't remember. It was a bit too daring/dairing

 

[Dorsey]

You fast fell I think, and it would have still worked too but it was just barely off. I like to fastfall a lot of mine before they get the chance to air dodge, but yeah i agree a regular drop zone would have been cake in this situation. dairing haha

 

[SwizzyUK]

Hope this helps Swizzy. Toss some new vids of you vs C.Falcon when you can.

I'm gonna read that C. Falcon post daily until it's imprinted into my mind I'm going to a tourney in Holland this weekend, if I place well I might get some games recorded. I'll link them if I do.

I might need to do the same with the sheik one, I have a new-found hate for sheik (those decent enough to dodge my grabs anyway). My new fave combo on her, chaingrab until she DI's up to escape... U-smash. I can officially 0-death sheik now because of this.

 

[CluelessBTD]

I just realized that I WRECK fox on DK64. First match of the set, he 2 stocked me on Yoshi's, second I 2 stocked him on DK64, then I failed a ledgedash on FD for the lose. Even game though. Unfortunately, he will now be banning that stage indefinitely....now what?

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Brinstar ?

 

[CluelessBTD]

I've tried brinstar before...it was a very bad idea against him. The only other stage I've ever beaten him on is Dreamland, but he still usually wins there. DK64 is the only stage I've found where I have a solid advantage over him. I'm just going to experiment with various other stages :/

I'm gonna try Poke Floats just to see how it works out.

 

[Magus420]

Pokefloats is like... near unwinnable if they're good with the stage and camp hard enough. Could work well depending on the player though.


Anyone try messing with powershield jabs against certain aerial approaches when you don't have time to beat/outspace them? PS dsmash was something I tried to pick up with my non-existent Sheik and my Peach a year or 2 ago, but never bothered with PS jab with Ganon.

I started doing it as a joke at a fest last night (when I play brawl I just walk around with Luigi and powershield jab shit half the time, lmao), but noticed I could do it pretty reliably on some attacks and it worked pretty well against stuff like Fox's nair when you're too high damage to CC or at any percent you can get the same result without taking damage in a trade for it. Wish I got vids of me pulling it off like a dozen times per match in some of them. It's pretty sweet xD

 

[-ACE-]

Tipman give us a specific character to talk about!! GANON PLAYERS NEED YOU. lol

 

[spider_sense]

Let's talk about Sheik what can we do? Against her...besides the obvious CG? What moves can setup for grabs? What's the best way to edge guard her? What moves are guaranteed shield grabs? Is there any possible way to avoid a aerial needle throw to grab? And what moves out prioritize her.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

There's nothing you can do Jason.


Nothing.

 

[spider_sense]

There's nothing you can do Jason.


Nothing.

Except chain you 0-death. Get outta here ya' sheik main.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

The *****.

Ganon
+Power
+Range
+Weight
+/Edge guarding
-Evasive tactics
-Speed
-Lag
-Air mobility
-Mobility
-Recovery

Sheik
+Mobility
+Evasive tactics
+Speed
+Lag
+Edge guarding
+Air mobility
+/Recovery
+/Projectile
-Power
-Range
-Weight

Ganon
*Ganon can chain grab Sheik.
*Dtilt to uair combos at mid plus percents.
*Dthrow to fsmash combo and mid percents when she DI's behind Ganon.
*Dthrow to bair/fair works at 80%+.

Sheik
*Sheik can chain grab Ganon (in NTSC).
*Tilt combos work good on Ganon.
*Needles can be used to destroy his recovery.
*Sheik can crouch out of Ganon's grab range.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Each character can potentially take huge percents if the initial hit is right. Stomp to grab can be a fierce opener on Sheik but the main focus needed to be successful in this match up is staying ground based. Sheik's jump is a lot faster than yours but luckily her short hop is trash. Using angle up ftilts can contend with any of her short hop aerials. Crouch canceling her hits is key at low percents. Chain grabbing her is simple. Follow the DI but if it is behind you, you need to jump cancel grab. Escaping her chain grab is pretty simple once you understand it. It is best to DI in front of her. Alternate between hard and light DI's. This would force Sheik to either run forward and grab or walk forward and grab. Not one of these option covers both DI's so if she misinterprets the DI or hesitates you can jump out. In the air uair is best vs Sheik if she is facing you. Her fair is very fast and has huge range. Fortunately when Sheik is above you she is very vulnerable. Hitting her out her second jump will put her on the defensive so play your cards right and watch for needles as she tries to find a way to land. Learning a strong ground game and not being compelled to only use your aerials will make this match a lot easier. A few notes from Dorsey and ACE. Their post #257 and on contained valid info that was omitted here. Thanks for your input guys.

Off stage if she is above the edge it's best to edge hog and follow her with a grab or bair depending how close to the edge she lands. When attempting to grab her off of her landing from an up B make sure you wait just a bit before you grab or she'll duck your grab. If Sheik tries to protect the edge by throwing needles you can light shield by the edge and have the needles hit your shield and pop you onto the edge. Her recovery from under stage or straigt across at edge level is vulnerable to aerials and tilts. It is when Sheik during her up B DI's down into the edge from above that she grabs with invulnerability. If you see she see isn't in the position to do this you can edge guard accordingly just like you would on anyone else with a vulnerably recovery.

#1. Do NOT DI back and forth during a chain grab, it's useless. Pick a direction and alternate the intensity of your DI.
#2. When recovering do NOT DI a tilt in any direction but away.

Ganon's favor
Pokemon stadium
Battlefield
Sheik's favor
Fountain of dreams
Mute city
Final destination
Toss up
Yoshi story
Dreamland
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We can discuss Sheik if you guys want. been trying to regain focus on some things so excuse me if my post are fewer and far apart. Believe me though I'll toss tons of info when I get into my part of the discussion of matches.

I'll toss the complete post up sometime this week, or next, or maybe just next month.

I believe staying ground based is key. Dtilts and apply pressure is the corner stone of this match. Getting scared and getting caught up in your shield makes you a goner. Gotta be fierce and accurate. Emphasis more on pressuring then baiting. And by this I mean don't whiff spaced aerials to draw Sheik out, draw Sheik out with CCed dtilts, jabs, ftilts angled down for CCs and angled up for anti airs. Jump cancel grabs during chain grabs is also important but like I said, I'll toss out the full post sometime in the future. Discuss.

Reno and Techzero maybe you guys can give us your thoughts. Hopefully you name search the boards so you read this. If not, fvck it. Not in the mood to send PMs.

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

Horray for Sheik Match-up. My worst pet peeves in the game.

 

[Dorsey]

As far as opportunity goes with each character, each character can potentially take huge %'s if the initial hit is right. Sheik on the other hand can also deliver non combo hits no sweat on ganon... Which is why you should stay on the ground, cc, and dtilt. CCing is especially key like it is in the sheik ditto. When you get sheik in the air you need to use the uair, and when you challenge ganon's fair against sheik's fair you have to use the latter part of his hitbox else you will get sheiked. Also, CGing is a better tool for ganon than it is for sheik in the match-up... so cg.

 

[-ACE-]

Here's some random info that might jump start the discussion...

Don't get grabbed. If I get grabbed at very low %, I like to DI away from the throw, then hold down and try to get the tech off in time (someone can correct me here, but this works for me a lot as it seems to force Sheik to be close to frame-perfect on the chaingrab at 10% or less). Just try not to be predictable, and the bottom line is basically if Sheik doesn't f*** up you're toast.

Learn the chaingrab. You can either take her up to about 80-85% and smash attack her based on DI, or take her up to 85-90% and bair/fair her (which will at the very least set you up for an edgeguard).

Always go for grab out of dair at low%

Dthrow is usually the best option out of a grab (free grab/aerial). Sometimes you can uthrow onto platforms for easy techchases as well as bthrow/fthrow them offstage to set up an edgeguard.

Never let her lure you in too close to the edge, even if they ledgestall. Keep a safe distance and wait for your chance to bair/fair her when she gets up. Bair is a great choice and covers several of her getup options with ease. Do NOT make it easy for her to get back on the stage.

With edgeguarding, sometimes you can go out and bair/uair/fair her depending on her distance from the stage, as long as she hasn't upB'd yet. You can also force Sheik to land on the stage with her up-B and punish her landing lag with a grab or aerial.

DI away like there's no tomorrow at low % to make her actually work for combos.

If you shield a dash attack, delay your grab for a split second or else you'll miss.

Ledgetech her dsmash edgeguard attempts and up-B her. If she times the dsmash correctly (hitting you with the first frame of hitbox), the end of the hitbox will stop any walltech option. Dorsey does this to me all the time.

When you're in the air, remember how vulnerable you are from underneath. If you must, try and time the stomp to her approach but above all else just try to get back on stage or to the ledge safely.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

the bottom line is basically if Sheik doesn't f*** up you're toast.

I completely disagree with you. For a long time this match was my bane but it is not anymore. Fight on the ground and understand Sheiks predisposition to stay in one direction on the ground once she's choosen it. When you understand that, you'll understand why applying pressure just works in this match. But you gotta stay on the ground for the most part.

Sheiks chain grab is weak cause of he grab range. DI if front of her two ways. Completely forward or slightly forward. This means Sheik will have to walk forward to grab you or run forward. No one option covers the two. This applies to the KO ability of the upsmash out of dthrow. If you get her to mess up the spacing it doesn't work.

Chain grabbing aside the reason you will lose is because when she is off stage she should always die. Her recovery is **** and with ledge dashes, grabs to fsmash, bair or fair when she lands you have many ways to end the stock.

Learn to play Sheik if you're a seasoned Ganon player and maybe it'll help you understand the weakness that character has. They're there just not so obvious until you start hitting em back to back.

 

[-ACE-]

Tipman I meant that if Sheik doesn't f*** up the CHAINGRAB, you're going to be at 80-90% unless they just decide to stop (FD). Never said that Ganon doesn't stand a chance. I love playing Sheik.

Edit: This is the first I've heard of covering 2 DI options when chaingrabbing. It's easy enough to do off pure reaction imo, either grab or dash > jc grab ASAP.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Mybad ACE. Took that out of context.

"Edit: This is the first I've heard of covering 2 DI options when chaingrabbing. It's easy enough to do off pure reaction imo, either grab or dash > jc grab ASAP." -ACE

Are you talking about what I posted? If so I was referring to being chain grabbed. Sheik stands still or dash grabs on a lot of scrub Ganons. The long and short DI forward can throw Sheik off and forces her to commit to something that can free you even though the both DIs look so similar.

Chain grabbing Sheik is fun. Playing Pikachu and DK help learning JC grabs.

 

[spider_sense]

What's the best cpu level to chain grab sheik?, because I'm having problems CG sheik, because once I grab her I do well, except whenever she full DI's to the right I can't regrab her,

 

[-ACE-]

lvl 1 is decent practice because they always DI hard behind and that is arguably the hardest regrab to get. Of course it's best to practice on humans (mainly so you can train yourself to react to different DI's quickly), but as far as speed goes, if you can do that one, you can do them all.

Edit: Yea tip on that last one I figured we were both talking about Sheik chaingrabbing Ganon, lol. No big.

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

So, are there any good recent vids of ganon vs sheik to observe and analyze?

 

[Linguini]

quality is kinda **** but it's my most recent tourney match vs a sheik.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGa15EunNx0

 

[Woj]

So, are there any good recent vids of ganon vs sheik to observe and analyze?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpQQ0D-Rm44

Punished wizard's foot made me so sad =(

 

[skrach8]

hey linguini. u comin to gigs? u down to get ur shield broke my n!gga

 

[~Miffy~]

how can i overcome fox's waveshine
and im not sure when to gerudo dragon

im a noob ;_ ;

 

[spider_sense]

Ganon's side b is situational, but I use it when I predict a missed grab, or you can use it as a tech chase, though it's not fully reliable as one. To overcome Fox's waveshine, I think you hold the control stick slightly away and down and follow up with a grab Oh and side b can wreak Marth's neutral air if timed properly.

 

[-ACE-]

you can use it as a tech chase, though it's not fully reliable as one.

It's probably not the best techchase option Ganon has, but it's reliable imo since it covers several options and can lead to combos (fastfallers).

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

I been hesitant to post here but I'll be on it soon. Quick question though, what stages do you guys like vs Sheik? I will always say battle field on any match up cause thats just me but low platform stages are to my liking vs Sheik.

Pokemon stadium
Battlefield
Yoshi story (eh, I like it a little)

I would hate to go to MC vs Sheik and FD is pretty lame but manageable. Next post I'll get everything summed up. Expect it on the 14th or so.

 

[Dorsey]

Yoshi's may be my best stage vs. ganon.... so I love when a ganon CP's me there, because it's exactly what I want haha. Sheik can adapt do the stage changes better than ganon on poke, but if ganon plays knowing this baiting a lot of the time, than yeah I'd say it's a decent pick. It's hard to pick ganon's best maps against sheik, because it's more of a what's the lesser of all the evils type deal being that every map is basically advantageous to sheik v. ganon.....even if it's good for ganon as well. My sheik v. ganon I am most comfortable on YS, FoD, and FD......then dream land.

 

[-ACE-]

I like DL64 the most, and BF/FD are fine too. I'd probably ban either MC or FoD.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Thank you very much for this guide.

Just thought I would show my appreciation

 

[Linguini]

I like FD/ Dreamland the most, FD is usually my free win stage vs sheik. Don't like bf/yoshi's vs sheik that much because she's so fast there but I don't usually ban them either. Now that I think about it I don't even ban stages vs sheik lol. What should I ban?

 

[Ulti]

I lilke Battlefield, DK64, and MC (most sheiks over here switch to secondaries if I go MC, haha). I like FD in theory because of no platform camping by sheik but have had little success there in practice. DL64 seems to have worked out for me in teams. YS always gets banned.

I haven't tried PS in a while

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

Thanks Jason (Spider Sense) for your comments on my youtube vids.

 

[Dorsey]

(most sheiks over here switch to secondaries if I go MC, haha)

I don't see exactly how that is. With some practice/stage knowledge sheik can really abuse the fact that there's no ledge against ganon. I personally think it's a trash map and don't like to play on it for the most part, so I don't. I would say that ganon can _potentially_ get gayed the most here by sheik, actually.... It would probably be smart to ban it just as a rule. As a sheik main I should really practice it but I don't give a ****. **** that map.

lol linguini, when I listed FD as one of my better sheik v. ganon maps I thought about how I wouldn't want to play you on it though.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Ganon
+Power
+Range
+Weight
+/Edge guarding
-Evasive tactics
-Speed
-Lag
-Air mobility
-Mobility
-Recovery

Sheik
+Mobility
+Evasive tactics
+Speed
+Lag
+Edge guarding
+Air mobility
+/Recovery
+/Projectile
-Power
-Range
-Weight

Ganon
*Ganon can chain grab Sheik.
*Dtilt to uair combos at mid plus percents.
*Dthrow to fsmash combo and mid percents when she DI's behind Ganon.
*Dthrow to bair/fair works at 80%+.

Sheik
*Sheik can chain grab Ganon (in NTSC).
*Tilt combos work good on Ganon.
*Needles can be used to destroy his recovery.
*Sheik can crouch out of Ganon's grab range.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Each character can potentially take huge percents if the initial hit is right. Stomp to grab can be a fierce opener on Sheik but the main focus needed to be successful in this match up is staying ground based. Sheik's jump is a lot faster than yours but luckily her short hop is trash. Using angle up ftilts can contend with any of her short hop aerials. Crouch canceling her hits is key at low percents. Chain grabbing her is simple. Follow the DI but if it is behind you, you need to jump cancel grab. Escaping her chain grab is pretty simple once you understand it. It is best to DI in front of her. Alternate between hard and light DI's. This would force Sheik to either run forward and grab or walk forward and grab. Not one of these option covers both DI's so if she misinterprets the DI or hesitates you can jump out. In the air uair is best vs Sheik if she is facing you. Her fair is very fast and has huge range. Fortunately when Sheik is above you she is very vulnerable. Hitting her out her second jump will put her on the defensive so play your cards right and watch for needles as she tries to find a way to land. Learning a strong ground game and not being compelled to only use your aerials will make this match a lot easier. A few notes from Dorsey and ACE. Their post #257 and on contained valid info that was omitted here. Thanks for your input guys.

Off stage if she is above the edge it's best to edge hog and follow her with a grab or bair depending how close to the edge she lands. When attempting to grab her off of her landing from an up B make sure you wait just a bit before you grab or she'll duck your grab. If Sheik tries to protect the edge by throwing needles you can light shield by the edge and have the needles hit your shield and pop you onto the edge. Her recovery from under stage or straigt across at edge level is vulnerable to aerials and tilts. It is when Sheik during her up B DI's down into the edge from above that she grabs with invulnerability. If you see she see isn't in the position to do this you can edge guard accordingly just like you would on anyone else with a vulnerably recovery.

#1. Do NOT DI back and forth during a chain grab, it's useless. Pick a direction and alternate the intensity of your DI.
#2. When recovering do NOT DI a tilt in any direction but away.

Ganon's favor
Pokemon stadium
Battlefield
Sheik's favor
Fountain of dreams
Mute city
Final destination
Toss up
Yoshi story
Dreamland
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry for such a long wait. I gave fair warning but it was still a long while. If you guys see something I missed or wanna add just post. I'll be updating my other threads as well that I've been neglecting so if you have vids that I didn't put on fresh in the scene I'll be getting on that soon.

Dorsey MC is terrifying vs Sheik. I haven't played it in a while but it doesn't sound like fun at all for Ganon.

The stages are controversial so we'll probably end up talking about those.

da K.I.D. thanks. If you haven't already it isn't just my efforts. Anyone is always welcome to join the discussion. I just organize the thoughts from the community.

- Discussing Pichu next?

 

[-ACE-]

Pichu should never be much trouble, you just can't let your guard up because of her speed. Chaingrab that little rat with dthrow up to 50-55% and end with a bair/uair depending on DI. Space your fairs/bairs as well as possible so she can't get inside easily. It usually doesn't take more than 4 hits and she's dead. Reverse uair is a good edgeguard. If she's pretty far offstage you can grab the ledge to force her to land on the stage and punish her landing lag with an aerial or grab > dthrow > aerial.