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Ganon vs.

Discussion in 'Ganondorf' started by PaperstSoapCo, Jul 27, 2009.

  1. PaperstSoapCo

    PaperstSoapCo
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    Smash Lord

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    [​IMG]
    This is probably Ganon's most reaction based match. He is a very fast opponent and has a lot of speed to dictate how the initial fight will start. His recovery isn't quite as good as Ganon's but it can be a bit trickier. Fortunately for Ganon this means little to nothing. The way this match ends up going is who can get the first four 0-deaths.

    Ganon
    +Power
    +Range
    +/Weight
    +/Edge guarding
    -/Evasive tactics
    -/Lag
    -/Speed
    -Mobility
    -Air mobility
    -Recovery


    C.Falcon
    +Mobility
    +Air mobility
    +Edge guarding
    +Evasive tactics
    +Lag
    +/Speed
    -/Range
    -/Weight
    -/Power
    -Recovery

    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    *Diagonal up Ftilts often break up C.Falcon's SHFFL'd attacks.
    *Reverse uair destroys C.Falcon's recovery.


    C.Falcon
    *C.Falcon can combo Ganon from grabs fairly easily.
    *Utilt is actually useful for edge guarding unlike Ganons.
    *SHFFLd nairs can suffocate Ganons game.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    [​IMG]
    Staying grounded in this match is crucial. Going aerial in most of your approaches will get you combo'd. C.Falcon can run way faster than Ganon and has a faster jump. That is where angled up ftilts really come in play. Spacing is key. A well timed angle up ftilt is the best way to kill his general shorthop approach, nair and knee. When angle up ftilts start keeping Falcon ground based he will try to grab, gentlemen or side b as an alternative to going into the air. Keep a jab ready when you see he is dash dancing waiting to get close for any of these. You don't always have to wait for him. Close the gap and make him commit to something early. Whiffing anything can put either of you in a compromising situation so use baits carefully and stay accurate. You can always CC nairs if you can't tilt in time. Although if you space bair or fair extremely well it can also do the trick. Backwards perfect wavelands work great for setting yourself up for a shieldgrab after you've baited his approach. Once you get the grab, you're in. Using dthrows to jab and uthrow to jab/tilt/uair on double jumps. Tech chasing C.Falcon is pretty simple. He doesn't roll far and comboing dair to side b to an aerial should be more than enough to get him off stage. Teching is important because it almost always guarantees a stock. Edge guarding him is too easy. Unfortunately if C.Falcon get's to tech chase you, you'll be killed easy. DIing his hits are important. Always DI away from uair combos and DI the knee diagonally up & towards but very slightly more upwards. If up & towards were 45° the DI would be about 50°. When recovering just go as deep onto the stage as you can. C.Falcon will just knee you if you try to land by him while he is edge hogging. No real way to get around this cause of his speed but never make it easy for him. A few notes from ACE's analysis and Magus' input on best survival DI of the knee. ACE's original post is very different from this and more in depth on tech chasing. Thanks for the input guys.

    [​IMG]
    Reverse uair give's C.Falcon no hope of coming back. You can use angle down ftilts for sweet spots to but be careful of techs to up b. A nice tip to not get mind gamed by C.Falcons mobile yet vulnerable recovery is when he is recovering from way above the stage reverse uair when he gets to the height of the edge not when he gets close to you. Don't let that back and fourth movement trick you, it means nothing if you know the edge is where he is aiming for. You can tease him with a few reverse uairs or just edge hog after two. Bairs also get the job done.

    [​IMG]
    #1. Do NOT DI into knees and uairs. You'll be asking to be in a combo video.
    #2. Do NOT tech in place. Teching in place is a horrible idea since C.Falcon might be heading over with a knee if he thinks you'll miss the tech.


    [​IMG]
    Ganon's favor
    Battle field
    Yoshi story

    C.Falcon's favor
    Final destination
    Pokemon stadium

    Toss up
    Big blue?

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    See Swizzy, I didn't forget about you.
     
  2. -ACE-

    -ACE-
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    20GT Enforcer

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    I think FD should be a toss up for Ganon vs Falco. I'll talk some about Falcon later
     
  3. PaperstSoapCo

    PaperstSoapCo
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    Smash Lord

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    That's probably what I will do.

    C.Falcon will probably be done tomorrow. That's a match I most aquainted with at the moment so it'll be a breeze. After my post if you guys want to keep discussing it I'll leave it up for a while. If not we'll move to an actual character to discuss.

    -Talk like a gansta, scream like a *****. Make em say *scream* :uzi:
     
  4. -ACE-

    -ACE-
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    Ok here's some of my Falcon bs. Just remember this matchup is mad deep and you can't let your guard down for a second.

    As always, spacing is key. A well timed up-angled ftilt is the best way to kill his general shorthop approach (nair, knee), although if you space bair or fair extremely well it can also do the trick. Sometimes you just have to let Falcon approach and shieldgrab him. Backwards perfect wavelands work great for setting yourself up for a shieldgrab after you've baited his approach. Once you get the grab, you're in.

    Tech chasing is the only way Ganon stands a chance. Use primarily dthrow (uthrow can be used at low percents to mix it up) and look for his DI. If you feel he will tech in place, dsmash is great for damage and combo setups (usually it can set you up for a free aerial - you can fair/bair if you're near the ledge or dair him for 20+ damage and another techchase opportunity if you're closer to the center of the stage). Falcons that are experienced in the matchup can DI out of the first hit of the dsmash which will kill your chances of creating a good setup using that method. If you encounter this, another great punishment tool for Falcons that tech in place is dair (or fair/bair if near the ledge), which either leads to a free grab or aerial. If you think they will techroll away, just run and fair them as the roll ends; this can lead to some easy edgeguards. When I get a grab somewhat close to the edge, I like to cover the option of them rolling toward the edge simply because if you guessed correctly that's the stock. *After a dthrow you can also jab to switch things up. As long as you're not very predictable, the jab can often cause fast fallers to miss the tech, which leads to a free fair.

    Edgeguarding is a breeze in this matchup. Reverse uair will kill his attempt to grab the ledge in almost any situation. Falcon's up-B is so predictable (us Ganon mains know what this is like) that you can usually just go out there and punch his a$s. As long as you don't get carried away and make a decision too soon you should be fine.

    When you're getting combo'd at low/medium percents you want to DI AWAY. Don't get caught up in some bull**** uair > uair > uair > knee combo. Keep an eye on your own damage%. If you're only at 20-30% just DI away even if you think he's probably going to knee. It shouldn't kill you if he knees, and if you DI up in an attempt to survival DI (fearing the knee) he might just uair and then knee (or uair again, and THEN knee); and you're screwed. This is where some mindgames come into play. Just be patient, DI the best you can, don't miss any techs and choose them carefully.

    Like I said this matchup is pretty deep and I merely touched on basic stuff but I hope this helps.
     
  5. RestInPeace

    RestInPeace
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    Smash Ace

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    Isn't survival DI up and in?
     
  6. DippnDots

    DippnDots
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    Feral Youth

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    regardless if you DI up and in to a falcon prepare to lose a stock off of one hit to scrubs.
     
  7. Renth

    Renth
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  8. PaperstSoapCo

    PaperstSoapCo
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    Smash Lord

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    Great post Ace. Feels like you're writing a lot of these match ups on your own.

    A few tricks that vs Falcon. One, when he is recovering from underneath the stage stand by the edge and wait for him to do his flip animation. As soon as he does jab and it'll send him flying. Not to practical but funny. An other is when he comes at you with his side b wait for it to get to you and jab. It'll clank and proceed to counter. Your best options might be ftilt, upB, dash and JC grab or just jab if he clanks close to you.

    When angle up ftilts starts keeping Falcon ground based he will try to grab, gentlemen or sideb. Keep a jab ready if he is reading your jumps and you don't always have to wait for him. Close the gap and make him commit to something early. You can always CC nairs if you can't tilt in time.
     
  9. -ACE-

    -ACE-
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    Thanks Tip, I'm just trying to contribute on some of the matchups I'm kinda familiar with since resurrecting this thread was such a good idea.

    DI'ing perpendicular to the direction the move sends you reduces knockback the most, so when it comes to the knee you might be right, I'm not sure. I think it's either up, or up and slightly in.
     
  10. Magus420

    Magus420
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    ^^ To clarify a bit. Also, you can't use side-b the same way you can to easy-mode **** spacies to cover a no tech, tech in place, and a techroll (one or the other depending on which direction you use it in) simultaneously though which blows. His character size pushes you away more at the start of the side-b and combined with his techrolls he goes farther than it can reach :ohwell:. Down-B works for no tech, tech in place, and techroll away however.

    Edit: The strongest survival DI on the knee is diagonally up & towards but very slightly more upwards. Like if up & towards were 45° the DI would be about 50°.
     
  11. -ACE-

    -ACE-
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    You're right about the dsmash Magus, but if Falcon DI's behind AND tech rolls behind, dsmash won't cover it, which is why I said to watch their DI. Side-b and down-b are great, I wasn't trying to cover everything in that post, just help contribute.
     
  12. Magus420

    Magus420
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    Smash Master

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    By 'techroll behind' I meant more like techroll through you really, since you'd be turning around to do the d-smash if they land behind you off the throw.
     
  13. RestInPeace

    RestInPeace
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    Smash Ace

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    So basically, just face the direction they're Diing and DSmash away? Of course, you have to adjust yourself a bit, but that's the gist of it? I can never land DSmash tech chases, so I just go for Dairs -> Aerials.
     
  14. PaperstSoapCo

    PaperstSoapCo
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    Smash Lord

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    Same. Though I never been a fan of dsmash at all.
     
  15. Magus420

    Magus420
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    For the d-smash to cover all 3 of those options properly you need to start it almost exactly on the 1st or 2nd frame they touch the ground.

    Before then and it will whiff on a tech in place since they'd still be invincible, and later than that it could whiff overtop of some characters on a no tech (you catch them out of the bounce normally) or they could go too far in their techroll through you and it wouldn't reach in time for that.

    On the characters it works on, the side-B timing is a little later than d-smash and also a larger window.

    Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT04quyyVkY#t=0m30s
     
  16. -ACE-

    -ACE-
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    Lmfao. Did velocity quit melee after that match? Good s***.

    I've always used side-b some but I might try to incorporate it a little more into my game and see how it works out.

    Edit: the music on that vid makes me think Uncle Rico is about to pull up in his van. lol
     
  17. RestInPeace

    RestInPeace
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    Smash Ace

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    I always use SideB because its easier to time and covers many options too.

    Are there any advantages or reasons for me to start incorporating DSmash techchases instead of always using SideB?
     
  18. Magus420

    Magus420
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    Smash Master

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    For the side-b chase to work you usually need to be almost directly ontop of them, while the ideal spacing for the d-smash one is around jab range length. I use d-smash more often when I don't have time to get close enough to where they're about to hit the floor. Also, the side-b one doesn't work right on some characters like CF. It's also a lot safer than whiffing a side-b if they techroll the other way.
     
  19. CluelessBTD

    CluelessBTD
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  20. PaperstSoapCo

    PaperstSoapCo
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    Smash Lord

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    Nice match Clue. The Ganon is looking great.

    Found out the matches I played with Guini on the 4th of July got recorded, well part of one anyways. Two stocks of mayhem! :uzi:
     
  21. RestInPeace

    RestInPeace
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    Smash Ace

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    You played on my BDay O:
     
  22. spider_sense

    spider_sense
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    Smash Champion

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    Magus I played your boy Techzero! Dude that guy murks Ganons for breakfast. I heard Tipman played him too.
     
  23. PaperstSoapCo

    PaperstSoapCo
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    Smash Lord

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    He was in FL? Techzero is cool guy. Did you play his Peach or Marth?

    Sorry RIP. Insomnia and boredom took me over.
     
  24. Dogysamich

    Dogysamich
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    The Designated Hype Man!

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  25. Cia

    Cia
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    das kwl

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    Teco's in FL?? I thought he went to michigan..
     
  26. PaperstSoapCo

    PaperstSoapCo
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    Smash Lord

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    Ganon
    +Power
    +Range
    +/Weight
    +/Edge guarding
    -/Evasive tactics
    -/Lag
    -/Speed
    -Mobility
    -Air mobility
    -Recovery


    C.Falcon
    +Mobility
    +Air mobility
    +Edge guarding
    +Evasive tactics
    +Lag
    +/Speed
    -/Range
    -/Weight
    -/Power
    -Recovery

    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    *Diagonal up Ftilts often break up C.Falcon's SHFFL'd attacks.
    *Reverse uair destroys C.Falcon's recovery.
    *Jab clanks with C.Falcon's side b giving Ganon the counter attack.


    C.Falcon
    *C.Falcon can combo Ganon from grabs fairly easily.
    *Utilt is actually useful for edge guarding unlike Ganons.
    *SHFFLd nairs can suffocate Ganons game.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    [​IMG]
    Staying grounded in this match is crucial. Going aerial in most of your approaches will get you combo'd. C.Falcon can run way faster than Ganon and has a faster jump. That is where angled up ftilts really come in play. Spacing is key. A well timed angle up ftilt is the best way to kill his general shorthop approach, nair and knee. When angle up ftilts start keeping Falcon ground based he will try to grab, gentlemen or side b as an alternative to going into the air. Keep a jab ready when you see he is dash dancing waiting to get close for any of these. You don't always have to wait for him. Close the gap and make him commit to something early. Whiffing anything can put either of you in a compromising situation so use baits carefully and stay accurate. You can always CC nairs if you can't tilt in time. Although if you space bair or fair extremely well it can also do the trick. Backwards perfect wavelands work great for setting yourself up for a shieldgrab after you've baited his approach. Once you get the grab, you're in. Using dthrows to jab and uthrow to jab/tilt/uair on double jumps. Tech chasing C.Falcon is pretty simple. He doesn't roll far and comboing dair to side b to an aerial should be more than enough to get him off stage. Teching is important because it almost always guarantees a stock. Edge guarding him is too easy. Unfortunately if C.Falcon get's to tech chase you, you'll be killed easy. DIing his hits are important. Always DI away from uair combos and DI the knee diagonally up & towards but very slightly more upwards. If up & towards were 45° the DI would be about 50°. When recovering just go as deep onto the stage as you can. C.Falcon will just knee you if you try to land by him while he is edge hogging. No real way to get around this cause of his speed but never make it easy for him. A few notes from ACE's analysis and Magus' input on best survival DI of the knee. ACE's original post is very different from this and more in depth on tech chasing. Thanks for the input guys.

    [​IMG]
    Reverse uair give's C.Falcon no hope of coming back. You can use angle down ftilts for sweet spots to but be careful of techs to up b. A nice tip to not get mind gamed by C.Falcons mobile yet vulnerable recovery is when he is recovering from way above the stage reverse uair when he gets to the height of the edge not when he gets close to you. Don't let that back and fourth movement trick you, it means nothing if you know the edge is where he is aiming for. You can tease him with a few reverse uairs or just edge hog after two. Bairs also get the job done.

    [​IMG]
    #1. Do NOT DI into knees and uairs. You'll be asking to be in a combo video.
    #2. Do NOT tech in place. Teching in place is a horrible idea since C.Falcon might be heading over with a knee if he thinks you'll miss the tech.


    [​IMG]
    Ganon's favor
    Battle field
    Yoshi story

    C.Falcon's favor
    Final destination
    Pokemon stadium

    Toss up
    Big blue?

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Hope this helps Swizzy. Toss some new vids of you vs C.Falcon when you can.

    Also if anyone has any suggestions on what should be fixed or what not let me know.

    Dogy post some new vids of your Doc, I wanna see.

    After this goes up feel free to discuss who ever. I'll away from the PC for a while.
     
  27. spider_sense

    spider_sense
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    Smash Champion

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    @ Tipman and VaNz. Yup, he's here for the FL tourney and to chill with Junglefever while he comes back here to pick his stuff up. I fought all his characters, his hardest were Falcon, Marth and Sheik. =/ I couldn't take 4 games from him. His Falcon and sheik were definitely the hardest. Oh and he says I play alot like you Tommy. Lulz
     
  28. PaperstSoapCo

    PaperstSoapCo
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    Smash Lord

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    Of course Jason. You'll notice the souf is very distinguished tech wise. You must have awed him with those moonwalks.
     
  29. -ACE-

    -ACE-
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    I want to play his Sheik/Marth so bad lol.
     
  30. PaperstSoapCo

    PaperstSoapCo
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    Smash Lord

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    This months discussion: Whoever!

    You read right? discuss who ever.
     
  31. RestInPeace

    RestInPeace
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    Smash Ace

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    Ace, you said that C.Falcon matchup is much more in-depth, so if you don't mind (and feel free to just decline), enlighten me with your information.

    Also, I want to learn to tech-chase better, because right now, I'm just guessing where they will go based on their teching patterns (so throughout the game, I watch the directions in which they tech, and in which situations. so I'm basically watching for habits I can punish in terms of techs), but I'm sure there are better ways. If anyone wants to help me on this, thanks in advance. I'm sure some of the tech chasing is matchup dependant.
     
  32. spider_sense

    spider_sense
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    Smash Champion

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    Let's talk about Ganon dittos? How do you do them? What beats what? And what covers the best options and what are the best edge guards to use against another G-dorf?
     
  33. -ACE-

    -ACE-
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    RIP just remember angled up ftilt, and that you can't always approach Falcon (and how important getting that grab is). With techchasing, a lot of it is timing. Once you're really good at punishing techs in place and you're very familiar with the length of the characters roll, you'll be set for the most part. Combos off of dair should be pretty automatic, and like I said if they roll near the edge run and fair them to set up the edgeguard. There's other neat stuff like you can jab Falcon out of his nair at any % while ASDI'ing down. I might pm you later but not right now.


    I love Ganon dittos. Uair is very important in the matchup, as well as bair. You have to be really familiar with the range of Ganon's hitboxes in this matchup because the one who's outspacing his opponent is generally going to be ******. You can bait approaches with stuff like (but certainly not limited to) full jump dair/fair > dj dair/fair. I basically just try to move in and out while I'm in the air spacing aerials just out of his range, waiting for the approach so I can punish. Jab and ftilt are great as well. Jab comes out on what, frame 3? and the ftilt has great range and usually leaves you less vulnerable than dtilt. Just like in any matchup the jab is great at preventing Ganon from getting that grab after you fair/dair/uair his shield (always l-cancel). Grabs are also important. I mainly use dthrow as it leads to to free aerials/jabs tilts. Dthrow chaingrab is good. The hardest part to me is being able to get the regrab when they DI behind at low percents, since you have to be pretty close to frame perfect in your turnaround dash > jc grab (it's also good to remember that although mixing up your DI is best, if you're grabbed at low percents DI'ing behind will make it harder for him to regrab because of this). Uthrow can lead to stuff too, but I'm not exactly sure as far as what is guaranteed. Edgeguarding is pretty simple, you just have to be patient and don't make a decision too soon. If he uses down-B too close to the ledge, fair or dair him immediately. When you are recovering, you should have a good idea as to whether or not the Wizard's Foot is a safe to use. Reverse uair rapes, dropzone aerials have their purpose as well. Get used to the delay for meteor canceling Ganon's dair. Oh and if he's going for a high up-B, space a bair so you won't get caught in the Dark Dive.

    /unorganized ramble

    Edit: I love Wizard's Foot spikes.
     
  34. -ACE-

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    I was about to say:
    bair beats fair
    uair beats bair
    spaced fair beats uair

    but it depends on spacing so much that most rules like that often get broken.
     
  35. CluelessBTD

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    Against C.Falcon, you can catch his Nair approach with retreating Uairs. I once got this 3 times in a row and the Falcon quite Nairing for the rest of the stock. Also, if C.Falcon or Ganon don't know any better, they will Down-B in their recovery giving you a free edgeguard.

    In Ganon dittos, I typically try to fight with my back towards my opponent and just space Bairs properly. It will always beat the Fair approach. Chaingrab the hell out of him too.
     
  36. Linguini

    Linguini
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    Smash Master

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    Jul 17, 2006
    Messages:
    4,698
    Location:
    Weston, Florida
    Ive played tech0 in tournament before,I beat him but he's got a really sexy sheik.
     
  37. Dorsey

    Dorsey
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    Banned (6 Points)

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    Feb 22, 2009
    Messages:
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    the sticky bottom, NC ©Dorsey combo
    @clue- I wouldn't have my back to them all the time, although the bair is very useful in dittos. The bair beats the fair when it's spaced properly, yeah, but who does that all the time when your opponent is trying to get you to space improperly? Over-using it also kind of cuts down opportunities on the edge I would think.. I would use it on FD more than anywhere else though.

    I haven't read ace's analysis on the ditto yet, but I've always thought that the wizards foot can be used so much practically than most ganon players give it credit for, especially in dittos. Techchasing off rolls with the wizards foot is pretty clutch in ganon dittos(ex: after a missed cg most of the time it's pretty obvious where he's going to roll), as well as using the wizard's foot spike. When ganon is off-stage in dittos doing his get back, I like to jump off with my back facing him thinking i'm trying to get him with the bair then just wait for a sec, and hit him with the inverted wizard's foot spike instead on my 2nd jump. It's very easy to get back from, just make sure you are at the height of your first jump or more above the stage when you press downb. That's only 1 example though. Not saying to do this a bunch either, but if you get proficient with the wizard's foot spike it makes edgeguarding ganon even easier. When your opponent thinks that it's coming it usually leaves them open to a freebie edge guard. The wf is also very difficult to sdi/tech.

    Further straying from ganon dittos and more to the wizard's foot, another application of the move that I feel is under-used is utilizing the wizard's foot spike while your coming back to the stage with ganon. It takes a little bit of balls when your 100%+, but it's very useful to mind game your opponent into thinking that he has the easy edgeguard then instead receive the purple boot. I've seen people do this one some, but seemingly it's just from reaction. I think it's way more applicable than people think, your spacing just has to be on.

    I could write an essay on the wizard's foot lol. what a ****ing badass move ;>
     
  38. Dorsey

    Dorsey
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    Banned (6 Points)

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    Location:
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    Since we're discussing everything now... how about ganon v. sheik? This is the match-up that I am familiar with the most, from sheik's POV, me being a sheik main and ace being a ganon main. I'd like to see some people with very solid game against sheik post about it. (maybe kage being that he thinks ganon has such a big adv. on sheik? lol..)

    All that I have of my sheik up are drunken vids (me and ace splitting a case)... they don't do me or ace justice but they are somewhat entertaining at least lol.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_IUHJek36w
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LB8hnc-vPyg&feature=related

    hopefully we'll get some sober ones in sometime.... I haven't been playing smash nearly as much as I want to lately.
     
  39. CluelessBTD

    CluelessBTD
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    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2006
    Messages:
    987
    Location:
    Pasadena, Tx
    Best way to play. Haha, really though I focus better, but cancel it out by doin' a lotta weird unpractical sh**. Good times.

    I'm ashamed that that's the extent of my good times :urg:
    MWHAHAHA, jk.
     
  40. Dorsey

    Dorsey
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    Banned (6 Points)

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    Location:
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    hahah yeah sometimes it works in my favor but other times not it depends on how much i've drank and if i'm feeling it. BTW, i've always liked your avatar.. I used to claim to be the 'swollest' ganon 3 years ago to the peeps i smashed with lol

    haha @ my drunk ganon.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVMrl-Nk5L4&feature=related
     

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