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Ganon vs.

Discussion in 'Ganondorf' started by PaperstSoapCo, Jul 27, 2009.

  1. PaperstSoapCo

    PaperstSoapCo
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2007
    Messages:
    1,237
    Location:
    537 Paper Street - Bradford - 19808
    [​IMG]
    Advantage
    Kirby..medium/big..
    Pichu..medium/big..
    Zelda..medium/big..
    Bowser..medium..
    Mewtwo..medium..
    Y.Link..medium..
    Pikachu..medium..
    G&W..medium..
    Yoshi..medium..
    Luigi..medium/small..
    Ness..medium/small..
    Roy..medium/small..
    DK..medium/small..
    Mario..medium/small..
    Dr.Mario..medium/small..
    Ice climbers..medium/small..
    Link..medium/small..
    Samus..small..

    Even or highly stage dependent
    Ganon
    Peach
    Marth


    Disadvantage
    Sheik..medium/big..
    Fox..medium..
    Falco..medium..
    C.Falcon..medium..
    Jigglypuff..small...

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Below is a character specific list, pointing out advantages for each character in the match up. its a bit simple, I'll work on it though. Any suggestions will be great.

    Legend
    + = good/advantage
    - = bad/disadvantage
    ? = questionable
    / = Slight
    Speed = Attack speed (don't wanna get anyone confused)
    Lag = Jump lag and L-cancel lag

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    +Range
    +Speed
    +Mobility
    +Evasive tactics
    +Edge guarding
    +Lag
    +/Air mobility
    -/Weight
    -Recovery
    ?Power


    Bowser
    +Projectile
    +/Weight
    +/Edge guarding
    -/Evasive tactics
    -/Range
    -Recovery
    -Air mobility
    -Mobility
    -Lag
    -Speed
    ?Power

    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    *Spikes (including reverse uair) can KO Bowser early due to his lack of a vertical recovery.

    Bowser
    *Fsmash can catch Ganon trying to sweet spot.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    +Power
    +Range
    +/Weight
    +/Edge guarding
    -/Evasive tactics
    -/Lag
    -/Speed
    -Mobility
    -Air mobility
    -Recovery


    C.Falcon
    +Mobility
    +Air mobility
    +Edge guarding
    +Evasive tactics
    +Lag
    +/Speed
    -/Range
    -/Weight
    -/Power
    -Recovery

    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    *Diagonal up Ftilts often break up C.Falcon's SHFFL'd attacks.
    *Reverse uair destroys C.Falcon's recovery.
    *Jab clanks with C.Falcon's side b giving Ganon the counter attack.


    C.Falcon
    *C.Falcon can combo Ganon from grabs fairly easily.
    *Utilt is actually useful for edge guarding unlike Ganons.
    *SHFFLd nairs can suffocate Ganons game.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    [​IMG]
    Staying grounded in this match is crucial. Going aerial in most of your approaches will get you combo'd. C.Falcon can run way faster than Ganon and has a faster jump. That is where angled up ftilts really come in play. Spacing is key. A well timed angle up ftilt is the best way to kill his general shorthop approach, nair and knee. When angle up ftilts start keeping Falcon ground based he will try to grab, gentlemen or side b as an alternative to going into the air. Keep a jab ready when you see he is dash dancing waiting to get close for any of these. You don't always have to wait for him. Close the gap and make him commit to something early. Whiffing anything can put either of you in a compromising situation so use baits carefully and stay accurate. You can always CC nairs if you can't tilt in time. Although if you space bair or fair extremely well it can also do the trick. Backwards perfect wavelands work great for setting yourself up for a shieldgrab after you've baited his approach. Once you get the grab, you're in. Using dthrows to jab and uthrow to jab/tilt/uair on double jumps. Tech chasing C.Falcon is pretty simple. He doesn't roll far and comboing dair to side b to an aerial should be more than enough to get him off stage. Teching is important because it almost always guarantees a stock. Edge guarding him is too easy. Unfortunately if C.Falcon get's to tech chase you, you'll be killed easy. DIing his hits are important. Always DI away from uair combos and DI the knee diagonally up & towards but very slightly more upwards. If up & towards were 45° the DI would be about 50°. When recovering just go as deep onto the stage as you can. C.Falcon will just knee you if you try to land by him while he is edge hogging. No real way to get around this cause of his speed but never make it easy for him. A few notes from ACE's analysis and Magus' input on best survival DI of the knee. ACE's original post is very different from this and more in depth on tech chasing. Thanks for the input guys.

    [​IMG]
    Reverse uair give's C.Falcon no hope of coming back. You can use angle down ftilts for sweet spots to but be careful of techs to up b. A nice tip to not get mind gamed by C.Falcons mobile yet vulnerable recovery is when he is recovering from way above the stage reverse uair when he gets to the height of the edge not when he gets close to you. Don't let that back and fourth movement trick you, it means nothing if you know the edge is where he is aiming for. You can tease him with a few reverse uairs or just edge hog after two. Bairs also get the job done.

    [​IMG]
    #1. Do NOT DI into knees and uairs. You'll be asking to be in a combo video.
    #2. Do NOT tech in place. Teching in place is a horrible idea since C.Falcon might be heading over with a knee if he thinks you'll miss the tech.


    [​IMG]
    Ganon's favor
    Battle field
    Yoshi story

    C.Falcon's favor
    Final destination
    Pokemon stadium

    Toss up
    Big blue?

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    +Speed
    +Edge guarding
    +/Power
    +/Lag
    -/Evasive tactics
    -/Air mobility
    -/Range
    -/Mobility
    -/Weight
    -Recovery


    Donkey Kong
    +Edge guarding
    +Range
    +/Weight
    +/Mobility
    +/Evasive tactics
    +/Air mobility
    -/Power
    -/Speed
    -/Recovery
    -/Lag


    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    *Spikes (including reverse uair) can KO DK early due to his lack of a vertical recovery.

    Donkey Kong
    *Cargo up throw can set up for an easy charged punch.
    *Uair can combo Ganon well due to his weight.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    +Range
    +Power
    +Weight
    -/Air mobility
    -/Edge guarding
    -/Speed
    -/Mobility
    -Evasive tactics
    -Recovery
    -Lag


    Dr.Mario
    +Projectile
    +Mobility
    +Evasive tactics
    +Lag
    +Edge guarding
    +/Recovery
    +/Speed
    +/Air mobility
    +/Power
    -Range
    -Weight


    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    *Ganon can use the cape recovery (Dr.Mario recovering) to his advantage with uair and semi-spike.
    *Spacing with tilts and bair can keep Dr.Mario at a comfortable distance.
    *Using up B to recover faced away from the stage can save you sometimes from the cape.



    Dr.Mario

    *His cape can and almost always will kill Ganons recovery.
    *Dash attack cant be shield grabbed until Dr.Mario's head is in grabbing range.
    *At certain percents dtrow to fair connects.
    *Cape = teh ****.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    +Power
    +Range
    +Weight
    +Edge guarding
    -/Air mobility
    -/Mobility
    -Speed
    -Lag
    -Recovery
    -Evasive tactics


    Falco
    +Projectile
    +Evasive tactics
    +Speed
    +Lag
    +Edge guarding
    +/Air mobility
    +/Mobility
    -Power
    -Range
    -Weight
    -Recovery


    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    *Any of Falco's recoveries reverse uaired = free stock.
    *Ganon can chain grab Falco.
    *Dair/Dsmash/Gerudo dragon are great set ups for airs.
    *PSing is your best friend.
    *Upthrow to downB connect around 65% if the miss the DI.
    *Dtilt to fair combo at mid to high percents.


    Falco
    *Blasters can destroy Ganons recovery with wizards foot.
    *Ganons lack of a sweet spot can get him spiked.
    *Shine combos makes Ganon mince meat.
    *Utilt can combo Ganon well.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    [​IMG]
    Falco can gain control of the match off the bat with his lasers. Getting close isn't the problem keeping good spacing and staying mobile in shield helps keeping Falco from cross you over. Full jumping over his lasers can occasionally land you easy fairs or dairs. It's best though to keep your approach ground based when being camped. Dealing with his pillar game can be very frustrating but shield grabbing him during it is possible as long as you grab quick enough he won't be able to even get a dair off on you by starting it the moment he leaves the ground going upwards. If he short hops into a dair afterward he will get grabbed, and if he full jumps out of the shine he will get grabbed if his jump a frame too slow or if he hit you with a shine recently giving it less hit lag and shield stun. JC shines are able to hit you though if you simply try to shield grab the shine normally. Holding away helps here in two ways. One is if you do happen to get hit by a shine, he'll be very unlikely to get a good combo off of it in that situation. 2nd is that by holding away, your shield ASDI will almost always put you out of range of any JC shines he may do after the 1st and you'll grab him. If done right, it pretty much leaves him with full jumping out of his shine and WDing away out of the shine or he will get grabbed. [​IMG]
    If you get combo'd it is best to DI away and make sure you tech when you get the chance. Teching in place or not tech at all will result in you getting worked hard. When you get Falco on his back, just like Fox, his tech roll is short and he will get hit into some damaging combos if you land a dair or pop him onto a platform with any aerial. It's tough to get your turn to deal the damage so you want to make sure you read his rolls well.
    Thanks to Magus' shield grabbing pillar analysis and animated gif. Very helpful. His original post is more in-depth. Linguini also has a great interpretation of the match. His post here.

    [​IMG]
    Falco off stage at any percent always has a high KO possibility. When you get him off stage if he is above the edge watch to see if he is going to illusion or upB. Sweet spot illusion attempts can be edge guarded with angle down ftilts, reverse uair, dair and dtilt to fair. Jabs and bair are great for countering illusions that are above the edge. It is possible to edge guard holding the edge by using RLD and ledge hopped uairs to switch things up. At 0:35 is a good example in this match. When Falco is off stage in his upB animation jump out and trade hits. Most of the time he will fall to his death. You can use fair if he is about the edge and reverse uair or stomp if he is under. Stages like FD can let Falco ride his up B along the side of the stage to shorten the vert of his up B and keep him from over shooting the edge. He won't be doing this when you're near by but do keep in mind which types of stages he won't be able to do this on so you can decide whether you want to attack above the edge or the edge itself as you're racing to get the edge guard.

    [​IMG]
    #1. Do not DI towards Falco during a pillar combo. DI away.
    #2. Do not make it a habit to tech in place when spiked towards the ground during a combo. DI away or behind him.


    [​IMG]
    Ganon's favor
    Battle field
    Brinstar
    Jungle 64

    Falco's favor
    Dreamland
    Yoshi story
    Pokemon stadium

    Toss up
    Mute city
    Final destination


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    +Power
    +Range
    +Weight
    +Edge guarding
    -/Air mobility
    -Mobility
    -Evasive tactics
    -Speed
    -Lag
    -Recovery

    Fox
    +Mobility
    +Evasive tactics
    +Speed
    +Lag
    +Edge guarding (can anyone say "shine")
    +/Recovery
    +/Projectile
    +/Air mobility
    -Power
    -Range
    -Weight


    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    *Firefox is an easy way for Fox to get spiked.
    *Ganon can chain grab Fox.
    *Dair/Dsmash/Gerudo dragon are great set ups for airs.
    *Upthrow to downB connect around 65% if they miss the DI.
    *Dtilt to fair combo at mid to high percents.


    Fox
    *Ganon can be waveshined with little effort.
    *He can also be shined off stage with ease due to his recovery.
    *Uair combos can rack up some major damage.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    [​IMG]
    Fox's speed is great but land dashes really do balance the movement on the playing field in spacing situations. The fact that you get punished if you whiff moves near Fox forces you to be accurate. Retreating fairs is a wonderful way to feel out your opponent and keep the space. It's a great counter for nair happy Foxs. Going aggressive vs Fox has to be pressure based. Utilizing jabs, tilts and uair works wonders for playing aggressive and pressuring Fox. Playing close has it's consequences if you miss spacing and don't apply pressure. You can get crossed over easy and get caught in heavy shield pressure. DIing away and CCing nairs and jabbing is a good way of avoiding Fox's heavy cross over game. When recovering unless you get a guaranteed sweet spot it's best to recover from above the stage and take the hits that follow if you can't get away with mind gaming a ledge grab. This match up is really tough until you get Fox in a teching situation. He doesn't tech roll far and dair follow ups can combo into something very damaging and a easy edge guard. To get Fox on his back you can use the basic hard hitting moves like fair, dair and bair and even dthrow to jab to get Fox on him teching. Gaining control in this match is hard but when you get your opportunities your few hits really do count when taken.

    [​IMG]
    Any time you knock Fox offstage he should be dead. Generally you want to stay on the stage unless he up Bs too close but it is possible to use RLD and ledge hopped uairs to switch things up. On stage, your best edgeguards for a sweet spot attempt are reverse uair, dair, angled down ftilt and dtilt to fair. Fox illusions that are done a bit above the ledge can be jabbed if you can't bair in time. If he is coming from underneath the stage and you know the up B will overshoot, bair is a great option. Stages like FD can let Fox ride his up B along the side of the stage to shorten the vert of his up B. It happens at 0:18 in this vid. Understand which types of stages he won't be able to sweet spot or throw you off on. If he decides to recover from above the stage bair is probably you best option. - ACE's analysis with a few extra notes. Thanks for a great analysis. His original post is more in-depth.

    [​IMG]
    #1. Do not get off stage unnessecarily. It is an easy way to lose a stock at any percent to a shine spike.

    [​IMG]
    Ganon's favor
    Battle field
    Jungle 64
    Brinstar

    Fox's favor
    Fountain of dreams
    Green greens

    Toss up
    Yoshi story
    Final destination


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    +Power
    +Range
    +Weight
    +Evasive tactics
    +/Speed
    +/Edge guarding
    +/Recovery
    +/Lag
    -/Mobility
    -Air mobility


    Game & Watch
    +Air mobility
    +/Recovery
    +/Mobility
    +/Disjointed hitbox
    -/Projectile
    -/Power
    -/Speed
    +Edge guarding
    -/Range
    -/Lag
    -Weight
    -Evasive tactics


    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    *Ganons uair can destroy G&W recovery.

    Game & Watch
    *G&W can crouch out of Ganons grab range.
    *Dtilt is great for edge guarding and can kill at rather low percents.
    *G&Ws warp possibly has enough space to avoid Ganons uair at the edge.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    +Power
    +Edge guarding
    +Range
    +Weight
    +/Evasive tactics
    -/Air mobility
    -/Mobility
    -/Speed
    -/Lag
    -Recovery

    Ice climbers
    +Evasive tactics
    +Speed
    +Projectile
    +Edge guarding
    +/Lag
    +/Air mobility
    +/Recovery
    +/Mobility
    +/Disjointed hitbox
    +/Range
    -/Power
    -Weight


    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    *Nana doesn't recover when spiked unless Popo jumps out to save her.
    *When Popo gets Dair'd his upB doesn't save him if he's alone and a good distance from the stage.
    *Reverse uair on grounded ICs sends them far due to their low traction.


    Ice climbers
    *Ice climbers can chain grab/grab combo Ganon due to his size and weight.
    *Ganon cannot successfully grab Ice climbers often without the Nana interrupting.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    +Mobility
    +Power
    +Range
    +Weight
    +/Evasive tactics
    -/Speed
    -/Edge guarding
    -/Lag
    -Air mobility
    -Recovery

    Jigglypuff
    +Air mobility
    +Recovery
    +Edge guarding
    +/Lag
    +/Evasive tactics
    +/Speed
    -/Range
    -Mobility
    -Power
    -Weight


    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    *Properly placed uairs can hit in an angle good for an anti WoP.
    *Dtilt and ftilt help maintain space between Jigglypuff and Ganon.
    *Pivoting Fsmashes are a great counter for a whiffed pound.
    *Pivoting Ftilts can be great for retaliating against shortly retreated bairs.
    *Down throw to fair lands on Jiggs at %40+ percent.
    *Dthrow to upsmash can KO at early percents if not DI'ed.



    Jigglypuff

    *WoP can combo Ganon 4-5 hits off the stage.
    *Utilt/uair + rest can equal a deadly combo that Ganon isn't immune to (bair to uair is an other dangerous rest set up).
    *Jigglypuff can crouch out of Ganons grab range.
    *Jigglypuff can rest you at the end of your down b if they predict it.
    *Jigglypuff grabs the ledge while you're recovering forcing you to land on the stage also leads to a free rest


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    [​IMG]
    Before I hit on specific strategies in this match know that the aerial and ground fighting are very different but have common advantages for both players. In the air the player who has their back turned and is higher in the air has priority over the other players character. On the ground who ever holds onto the spacing of their tilts and grabs gains advantage on the ground. With that in mind a lot of your game is just getting that favorable spacing and keeping it. There are three pivotal aspects that will determine how much pressure you could put on Jiggs.

    Countering Jiggs on a jump or aerial is something that needs to be implemented into the match to gain early percents and give you presence when you're on the ground. Using moves like angle up ftilt, jabs, or even uairs are great for trading or intercepting an aerial from Jiggs while on the ground. Not doing this will result in you getting crossed over and guessing when your jumps and aerial attacks won't get countered themselves. Once Jiggs becomes accustomed to this they won't be as aggressive which will insight more aerial combat.

    Aerial combat is simple, bairs are both of your best pokes but Ganon can use reverse uairs to fight and beat out bairs if he is higher than Jiggs in the air. Fair is also a great poke from Jiggs but it's important not to get over zealous and hurry to throw fairs of your own out. the punch is great but you gotta pick em out when you think it'll hit and not bluff with it much.

    Spacing your ground moves and aerials. This is very important and is a nice reason to play Jiggs to teach you overall spacing because you need to space your tilts and aerials to their fullest extent without being inaccurate. Too close and Jiggs will cross you up and duck your jabs, grabs and ftilts. Fight too spaced and you lose your influence in the match. Spacing determines how relevant you are in the match.

    The rest is basic and keeping the best spacing will give you the game.


    [​IMG]
    This is kinda odd in this match and doesn't present itself unless Jiggs is at stage height. Angle down ftilts are nice along with reverse uair. Unless you think you can successfully edge guard Jiggs then those tools are probably best versus a pound recovery but if you think it will just lead to whiffs and a easy recovery landing a bair or two to get damage instead is a nice substitute for those low percent edge guards. Getting edge guarded isn't so bad as long as you DI away from combos and bring the fight under the stage. Tech bair on Jiggs' dsmash is a great tool and merits a free recovery when succesful.

    [​IMG]
    #1 Do NOT DI up during a bair combo off stage. You're gonna have to DI away when you can to avoid a massive combo.
    #2 Do NOT dthrow fait and put Ganon over Jiggs' hitbox. Space the punch or Jiggs will be able to rest you.
    #3 Do NOT grab, jab or straight ftilt a crouching Jiggs.


    [​IMG]
    Ganon's favor
    Yoshi story
    Battle field
    Fountain of dreams

    Jiggs' favor
    Pokemon stadium
    Dreamland

    Toss up
    Final destination

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    +Power
    +Edge guarding
    +Range
    +Weight
    -/Mobility
    -/Speed
    -Evasive tactics-Lag
    -Air mobility
    -Recovery

    Kirby
    +Lag
    +Edge guarding
    +Air mobility
    +/Evasive tactics
    +/Mobility
    +/Speed
    +/Disjointed hitbox
    -/Recovery
    -Power
    -Range
    -Weight


    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    *Up smash knocks Kirby out of his stone form if both hits land.
    *Its retardedly easy for Ganon (or anyone) to shake out of Kirby's back or forward throw.


    Kirby
    *Kirby can suck Ganon (...) and walk off the ledge, occasionally receiving cheap KO's.
    *Kirby can crouch out of Ganons grab range.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    +Power
    +/Range
    +/Weight
    +/Mobility
    +/Edge guarding
    -/Evasive tactics
    -/Speed
    -/Air mobility
    -Recovery
    -Lag


    Link
    +Lag
    +Edge guarding
    +Projectile
    +Disjointed hitbox
    +/Air mobility
    +/Recovery
    +/Evasive tactics
    -/Speed
    -/Mobility
    -/Range
    -/Weight
    -Power


    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    *Reverse uair can cut through Links recovery with no repercussions.
    *Ganon can chain grab Link.


    Link
    *Boomerangs/arrows/bombs can clog up the playing field
    *Utilt can combo Ganon.
    *A returning boomerang can knock Link out of a grab.
    *Up B can semi spike Ganons recovery far too easily... FAR TOO EASY!


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    +Power
    +Range
    +Weight
    +Edge guarding
    -/Air mobility
    -Speed
    -Mobility
    -Evasive tactics
    -Lag
    -Recovery

    Luigi
    +Mobility
    +Evasive tactics
    +Speed
    +Lag
    +/Edge guarding
    +/Projectile
    +/Air mobility
    -Power
    -Recovery
    -Range
    -Weight


    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    *Reverse uair can send Luigi sliding across the stage due to his low traction.

    Luigi
    *Luigi can attack and retreat quickly with SH airs to landdash

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    +Range
    +Power
    +Weight
    -/Air mobility
    -/Edge guarding
    -/Speed
    -/Mobility
    -Evasive tactics
    -Recovery
    -Lag


    Mario

    +Projectile
    +Mobility
    +Evasive tactics
    +Speed
    +Lag
    +Edge guarding
    +Recovery
    +/Air mobility
    -/Power
    -Range
    -Weight


    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    *Ganon can use the cape recovery (Mario recovering) to his advantage with uair and semi-spike.
    *Spacing with tilts and bair can keep Mario at a comfortable distance.
    *Using up B to recover faced away from the stage can save you sometimes from the cape.


    Mario
    *His cape almost always kills Ganons recovery.
    *Uair and utilt combo well against Ganon.
    *Dash attack cant be shield grabbed until Mario's head is in grabbing range.
    *Cape = teh ****.
    *Fair to fsmash works on Ganon at mid percents.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    +Weight
    +/Power
    +/Edge guarding
    -/Range
    -/Air mobility
    -/Evasive tactics
    -/Recovery
    -Speed
    -Lag
    -Mobility

    Marth
    +Disjointed hitbox
    +Mobility
    +Evasive tactics
    +Speed
    +Lag
    +Edge guarding
    +/Range
    +/Air mobility
    +/Recovery
    -/Power
    -Weight

    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    *Reverse uair can hit Marth's recovery when sweet spotted.
    *Bair can get through a lot, if not all of Marth's airs.
    *Light shielding by the edge causes Marth's upB to push you into an edge hog.
    *Gerudo dragon when blocked can push Marth far enough to avoid getting shield grabbed.
    *Downthrow leads to uair or bair almost always.
    *At 0% you can down throw and get an other grab on Marth.
    *Marth's SH double fairs can be intercepted with uair out of shield after blocking the first one.


    Marth
    *Ganon can get comboed by fairs and nairs.
    *Fsmash has a huge hitbox that is impenetrable by Ganon's airs or tilts when spaced right.
    *The third hit of dancing dolphin (downB only) knocks Ganon far enough for him to shield grab
    *Fthrow and dthrow leave Ganon open for easy tech chases.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    [​IMG]
    When fighting Marth spend a decent amount of time with your back toward him. Bairs are great vs his nairs and fairs. Careful when spacing this that you don't get fsmashed. When facing Marth, generally keep a safer distance so that it's easier to space the fair. ACE's favored approach is perfect wavelanding to ftilt from a shorthop or double jump. It covers a lot of ground, which is very useful against Marths that love to keep their distance. When Marth is on the edge you can keep the pressure on him with bair. You can also fair him when he gets up and sheilds to reset him back off stage. Don't let him lure you in too close to the edge. Try to mindgame him into thinking it's ok to get up and then bair him. Fair is optional but more situational. When the bair is timed right it covers many options (get up, get up attack, ledgehop - depending on inv. frames). Jumping onto one of the lower platforms on YS, DL64, and BF can lure Marth into a false sense of security and he will try to get up from the ledge, which sets up for a drop-through bair. You just have to get used to dropping through the platform and bair'ing as soon as possible. Kage is really good at this. - ACE's analysis with a few extra notes. Thanks for a great analysis.

    [​IMG]
    It's pretty safe to run out or stay on stage wait for Marth. Reverse up air is standard. Even though you can always light shield by the edge, reverse uair is the surest option you have. Light shield edge hogs are almost always effective. Sometimes you can miss the edge hog if Marth hits the shield right which isn't fun at all. Your two favorable options are get the edge hog and KO or get the edge hog and have Marth land on stage. When he lands you can ledge hop uair or ledge hop grab. Marth's vulnerability during his recovery is an issue he has for who ever he's facing and it's no different with Ganon.

    [​IMG]
    #1. Unless you're at very high percent DIing into or up from fairs is a big no no. DI away.
    #2. When recovering with an up B from above unless you're sure of it never go to the edge. It's best to just land right next to Marth and reduce your chances of getting gimped or tippered.


    [​IMG]
    Ganon's favor
    Battle field
    Dreamland

    Marth's favor
    Fountain of dreams
    Toss up
    Yoshi Story
    Pokemon stadium


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    +Power
    +Weight
    +/Range
    +/Lag
    +/Edge guarding
    +/Evasive tactics
    -/Air mobility
    -/Mobility
    -/Speed
    -/Recovery


    Mewtwo
    +Evasive tactics
    +/Projectile
    +/Mobility
    +/Speed
    +/Edge guarding
    +/Recovery
    +/Air mobility
    -/Lag
    -/Range
    -Power
    -Weight


    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    *Dtilts set up Mewtwo for airs at low percents.


    Mewtwo

    *Fair combos work well on Ganon in low/medium percents.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    +Power
    +Range
    +Weight
    +Edge guarding
    +/Evasive tactics
    -/Mobility
    -Air mobility
    -Speed
    -Lag
    -Recovery


    Ness
    +Speed
    +Lag
    +Edge guarding
    +Air mobility
    +/Projectile
    +/Mobility
    +/Evasive tactics
    +/Disjointed hitbox
    -/Recovery
    -/Range
    -Power
    -Weight


    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    *Ness' recovery leads him to get edgehogged or retaliated on easily.

    Ness
    *SHFF'd fairs and dash attacks can out range some of Ganons attacks with its disjointed hitboxes.
    *Ness can crouch out of Ganons grab range.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    +Power
    +Range
    +Weight
    +Edge guarding
    +/Mobility
    +/Evasive tactics
    -/Air mobility
    -Speed
    -Lag
    -Recovery


    Peach

    +Projectile
    +Recovery
    +Air mobility
    +Speed
    +Lag (float cancel)
    +Edge guarding
    +/Power
    +/Disjointed hitbox
    -/Mobility
    -/Evasive tactics
    -Range
    -Weight


    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    *Ganon can catch Peach's turnips and use them to his advantage.
    *SHFF reverse uair + ftilt works well on peach due to her good traction.
    *Dair beside a recovering peach can spike her without much risk of the umbrella interrupting you.
    *When you catch a sword you can still do your aerials with it in hand.
    *Dthrow to usmash can kill Peach at 60% on stages with low ceilings
    *When Peach's dsmash is fully blocked you can get a free upB out of shield.


    Peach

    *Peach can do aerial attacks with turnips in hand.
    *Downsmash edge guard disables Ganons ability to edge tech and survive.
    *Float canceled dsmash combos work good on Ganon.
    *Usmash has priority and makes Peach's head and arms invincible causing some hurt to Ganon's air game.
    *Ganons edge tech can get him sucked into multi hits if Peach downsmash.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    [​IMG]
    This is one of the few match ups where Ganon is actually faster on foot than his opponent. With that at hand his waveland attacks are phenomenal for spacing and closing the gap. Regardless though Peach's up close game is great and she can also camp pretty safe. Ironically in the air Peach is very vulnerable. If she messes up a float cancel chain shield grabbing dthrow to uair at low mid percents is a great way to put her in a position she doesn't want to be in. Bair and uair are best spacing tools you have when she's grounded. Angle up ftilt is also good for capitalizing on low floated aerials. A difficult approach to deal with is turnip throw to fair. You can handle this by uairing Peach through the turnip or jumping and catching then Z dropping the turnip asap. When recovering you can avoid dair to nair by DIing down during dair. Recovering from under the stage isn't fun but it is a better option that getting any more damage. Spacing is key in this match but most important is not getting caught up in your shield. You need to use your speed and stay aggressive to keep Peach from exercising her priority on you.

    [​IMG]
    They're many ways to edge guard Peach. When Peach approaches from under the stage reverse uair always wins. As soon as her upB peaks the umbrella losses it's hitbox for a moment. That is your opportunity to uair. When she approaches from above the stage you can dair parallel to her and spike with your side if you choose not to bair. Peach can get far up when recovering. A nice technique you can do to reach her is grab the edge and ledge jump (not ledge hop) then double jump. Ganon gets tons of vert doing this. From there you can do what is necessary.

    [​IMG]
    #1. Do not CC dsmash. That's a gimme.
    #2. Do not jump through platforms into a dsmash.
    #3. Do not catch turnips and attempt to throw them at close range. If you catch em in the air release em with Z.


    [​IMG]
    Ganon's favor
    Battle field
    Dreamland
    Rainbow cruise

    Peach's favor
    Fountain of dreams
    Toss up
    Mute city
    Final destination


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    +Edge guarding
    +Power
    +Range
    +Weight
    +/Evasive tactics
    -Recovery
    -Air mobility
    -Speed
    -Lag
    -Mobility


    Pichu
    +Recovery
    +Mobility
    +Evasive tactics
    +Air mobility
    +Speed
    +Lag
    +Edge guarding
    +/Disjointed hitbox
    -/Projectile
    -Range
    -Weight
    -Self inflicted damage
    -Power


    [​IMG]
    Ganon

    Pichu
    *Pichu can crouch out of Ganons grab range.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    +Edge guarding
    +Power
    +Range
    +Weight
    +/Evasive tactics
    -Recovery
    -Air mobility
    -Speed
    -Lag
    -Mobility


    Pikachu

    +Recovery
    +Mobility
    +Evasive tactics
    +Air mobility
    +Speed
    +Lag
    +Edge guarding
    +/Disjointed hitbox
    +/Projectile
    -/Power
    -Range
    -Weight


    [​IMG]
    Ganon

    Pikachu
    *Pikachu can crouch out of Ganons grab range.
    *Pikachu's jumping speed and nair outprioritize a lot of Ganons airs.
    *Uair can kill Ganon at 0%! GIMP KO!


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    +Power
    +Weight
    +Edge guarding
    +/Range
    +/Speed
    -/Air mobility
    -/Evasive tactics
    -/Lag
    -Recovery
    -Mobility


    Roy
    +Disjointed hitbox
    +Mobility
    +Evasive tactics
    +Air mobility
    +Edge guarding
    +/Lag
    -/Speed
    -/Recovery
    -/Range
    -Power
    -Weight

    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    *Reverse uair can kill Roy's recovery, though usually it'll be a trade of blows.
    *Roys aerials can be CCld and countered if he hits with the tip.


    Roy
    *Ganons strength works against him if Roy uses his counter.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    +Edge guarding
    +/Power
    +/Range
    -/Speed
    -/Weight (Ganon =109/Samus = 110)
    -/Mobility
    -/Air mobility
    -/Evasive tactics
    -Recovery
    -Lag


    Samus
    +Lag
    +Edge guarding
    +Recovery
    +Projectile
    +/Evasive tactics
    +/Speed
    +/Weight
    +/Mobility
    +/Air mobility
    -/Power
    -/Range


    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    *Reverse uair, edge hog is a free stock on Samus once she has used her grapple.
    *Gerudo punch can go past Samus' missiles (close shot missiles get you on occasion).
    *Downthrow can lead to a lot of airs including double bairs (depending on DI and percent).
    *CCing does not exist for Samus in this match up


    Samus
    *Missle spamming can destroy Ganons recovery with wizards foot.
    *Utilt is an ultimate edgeuarder Vs Ganon.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    +Power
    +Range
    +Weight
    +/Edge guarding
    -Evasive tactics
    -Speed
    -Lag
    -Air mobility
    -Mobility
    -Recovery


    Sheik
    +Mobility
    +Evasive tactics
    +Speed
    +Lag
    +Edge guarding
    +Air mobility
    +/Recovery
    +/Projectile
    -Power
    -Range
    -Weight


    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    *Ganon can chain grab Sheik.
    *Dtilt to uair combos at mid plus percents.
    *Dthrow to fsmash combo and mid percents when she DI's behind Ganon.
    *Dthrow to bair/fair works at 80%+.


    Sheik
    *Sheik can chain grab Ganon (in NTSC).
    *Tilt combos work good on Ganon.
    *Needles can be used to destroy his recovery.
    *Sheik can crouch out of Ganon's grab range.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    [​IMG]
    Each character can potentially take huge percents if the initial hit is right. Stomp to grab can be a fierce opener on Sheik but the main focus needed to be successful in this match up is staying ground based. Sheik's jump is a lot faster than yours but luckily her short hop is trash. Using angle up ftilts can contend with any of her short hop aerials. Crouch canceling her hits is key at low percents. Chain grabbing her is simple. Follow the DI but if it is behind you, you need to jump cancel grab. Escaping her chain grab is pretty simple once you understand it. It is best to DI in front of her. Alternate between hard and light DI's. This would force Sheik to either run forward and grab or walk forward and grab. Not one of these option covers both DI's so if she misinterprets the DI or hesitates you can jump out. In the air uair is best vs Sheik if she is facing you. Her fair is very fast and has huge range. Fortunately when Sheik is above you she is very vulnerable. Hitting her out her second jump will put her on the defensive so play your cards right and watch for needles as she tries to find a way to land. Learning a strong ground game and not being compelled to only use your aerials will make this match a lot easier. A few notes from Dorsey and ACE. Their post #257 and on contained valid info that was omitted here. Thanks for your input guys.

    [​IMG]
    Off stage if she is above the edge it's best to edge hog and follow her with a grab or bair depending how close to the edge she lands. When attempting to grab her off of her landing from an up B make sure you wait just a bit before you grab or she'll duck your grab. If Sheik tries to protect the edge by throwing needles you can light shield by the edge and have the needles hit your shield and pop you onto the edge. Her recovery from under stage or straigt across at edge level is vulnerable to aerials and tilts. It is when Sheik during her up B DI's down into the edge from above that she grabs with invulnerability. If you see she see isn't in the position to do this you can edge guard accordingly just like you would on anyone else with a vulnerably recovery.

    [​IMG]
    #1. Do NOT DI back and forth during a chain grab, it's useless. Pick a direction and alternate the intensity of your DI.
    #2. When recovering do NOT DI a tilt in any direction but away.


    [​IMG]
    Ganon's favor
    Pokemon stadium
    Battlefield

    Sheik's favor
    Fountain of dreams
    Mute city
    Final destination

    Toss up
    Yoshi story
    Dreamland


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    +Edge guarding
    +Power
    +/Range
    +/Weight (Ganon =109/Yoshi = 108)
    +/Evasive tactics
    -/Lag
    -/Speed
    -Recovery
    -Air mobility
    -Mobility


    Yoshi
    +Lag
    +Projectile
    +Mobility
    +Edge guarding
    +Air mobility
    +/Evasive tactics
    +/Speed
    -/Range
    -/Weight
    -Power
    -Recovery


    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    *Any of Ganons airs can neutralize Yoshi's second jump at fairly low percents.

    Yoshi
    *DjC can sneak in airs even if Yoshi's hit.
    *F/Utilts can combo Ganon.
    *Yoshi can occasionally crouch out of Ganons grab range (when he rocks back).


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    +Power
    +Range
    +Weight
    +Edge guarding
    -/Evasive tactics
    -/Mobility
    -/Speed
    -/Air mobility
    -/Recovery
    -Lag


    Y.Link

    +Lag
    +Projectile
    +/Disjointed hitbox
    +/Mobility
    +/Evasive tactics
    +/Speed
    +/Edge guarding
    +/Air mobility
    +/Recovery
    -Power
    -Range
    -Weight

    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    *Reverse uair can cut through Y.Links recovery with no repercussions.
    *Ganon can chain grab Y.Link.


    Y.Link
    *Boomerangs/arrows/bombs can clog up the playing field
    *Utilt can combo Ganon.
    *A returning boomerang can knock Y.Link out of a grab.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    +Power
    +Weight
    +Mobility
    +/Range
    +/Edge guarding
    +/Evasive tactics
    -/Speed
    -/Lag
    -Recovery
    -Air mobility


    Zelda
    +Recovery
    +Air mobility
    +Edge guarding
    +/Evasive tactics
    +/Speed
    +/Lag
    -/Projectile
    -/Range
    -/Power
    -Weight
    -Mobility


    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    *Ganon can double jump over her fair and proceed with a counter.
    Stage CounterPicks


    Zelda
    *At low percents Zelda can catch Ganon with two fairs in a row.
     
  2. PaperstSoapCo

    PaperstSoapCo
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2007
    Messages:
    1,237
    Location:
    537 Paper Street - Bradford - 19808
    [​IMG]
    Probably Ganon's most agile aerial opponent. Trading hits is always a plus but with Jigg's awesome aerial control and ranged bairs it is tough to get that trade. Even though I myself consider this match up borderline even there are some do's and don't in this match up that if neglected will make the match feel far from it.

    Ganon
    +Mobility
    +Power
    +Range
    +Weight
    +/Evasive tactics
    -/Speed
    -/Edge guarding
    -/Lag
    -Air mobility
    -Recovery

    Jigglypuff
    +Air mobility
    +Recovery
    +Edge guarding
    +/Lag
    +/Evasive tactics
    +/Speed
    -/Range
    -Mobility
    -Power
    -Weight


    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    *Properly placed uairs can hit in an angle good for an anti WoP.
    *Dtilt and ftilt help maintain space between Jigglypuff and Ganon.
    *Pivoting Fsmashes are a great counter for a whiffed pound.
    *Pivoting Ftilts can be great for retaliating against shortly retreated bairs.
    *Down throw to fair lands on Jiggs at %40+ percent.
    *Dthrow to upsmash can KO at early percents if not DI'ed.



    Jigglypuff

    *WoP can combo Ganon 4-5 hits off the stage.
    *Utilt/uair + rest can equal a deadly combo that Ganon isn't immune to (bair to uair is an other dangerous rest set up).
    *Jigglypuff can crouch out of Ganons grab range.
    *Jigglypuff can rest you at the end of your down b if they predict it.
    *Jigglypuff grabs the ledge while you're recovering forcing you to land on the stage also leads to a free rest


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    [​IMG]
    Before I hit on specific strategies in this match know that the aerial and ground fighting are very different but have common advantages for both players. In the air the player who has their back turned and is higher in the air has priority over the other players character. On the ground who ever holds onto the spacing of their tilts and grabs gains advantage on the ground. With that in mind a lot of your game is just getting that favorable spacing and keeping it. There are three pivotal aspects that will determine how much pressure you could put on Jiggs.

    Countering Jiggs on a jump or aerial is something that needs to be implemented into the match to gain early percents and give you presence when you're on the ground. Using moves like angle up ftilt, jabs, or even uairs are great for trading or intercepting an aerial from Jiggs while on the ground. Not doing this will result in you getting crossed over and guessing when your jumps and aerial attacks won't get countered themselves. Once Jiggs becomes accustomed to this they won't be as aggressive which will insight more aerial combat.

    Aerial combat is simple, bairs are both of your best pokes but Ganon can use reverse uairs to fight and beat out bairs if he is higher than Jiggs in the air. Fair is also a great poke from Jiggs but it's important not to get over zealous and hurry to throw fairs of your own out. the punch is great but you gotta pick em out when you think it'll hit and not bluff with it much.

    Spacing your ground moves and aerials. This is very important and is a nice reason to play Jiggs to teach you overall spacing because you need to space your tilts and aerials to their fullest extent without being inaccurate. Too close and Jiggs will cross you up and duck your jabs, grabs and ftilts. Fight too spaced and you lose your influence in the match. Spacing determines how relevant you are in the match.

    The rest is basic and becomes a result in who has been till someone is ready to run through these procedures again to see who will be successful in em.

    [​IMG]
    This is kinda odd in this match and doesn't present itself unless Jiggs is at stage height. Angle down ftilts are nice along with reverse uair. Unless you think you can successfully edge guard Jiggs then those tools are probably best versus a pound recovery but if you think it will just lead to whiffs and a easy recovery landing a bair or two to get damage instead is a nice substitute for those low percent edge guards. Getting edge guarded isn't so bad as long as you DI away from combos and bring the fight under the stage. Tech bair on Jiggs' dsmash is a great tool and merits a free recovery when succesful.
    [​IMG]
    #1 Do NOT DI up during a bair combo off stage. You're gonna have to DI away when you can to avoid a massive combo.
    #2 Do NOT dthrow fait and put Ganon over Jiggs' hitbox. Space the punch or Jiggs will be able to rest you.
    #3 Do NOT grab, jab or straight ftilt a crouching Jiggs.


    [​IMG]
    Ganon's favor
    Yoshi story
    Battle field
    Fountain of dreams

    Jiggs' favor
    Pokemon stadium
    Dreamland

    Toss up
    Final destination
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     
  3. SynikaL

    SynikaL
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2004
    Messages:
    1,971
    Location:
    Boynton Beach, FL
    Since we're probably not the right people to discuss it, ATM (at least I'm probably not), I want to know how people feel the Ganon vs. Marth matchup has changed, if at all.


    -Kimo
     
  4. PaperstSoapCo

    PaperstSoapCo
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2007
    Messages:
    1,237
    Location:
    537 Paper Street - Bradford - 19808
    I had two MM with G$ 3/5. He mains Marth and he'll tell you it's 50-50 if not maybe more or less in either ones favor depending on stage. We broke even and were supposed to have an other 3/5 so someone could leave with some money but he said he couldn't cause he left his inhaler at home.

    -JK G$, we gotta go again sometime.
     
  5. SynikaL

    SynikaL
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2004
    Messages:
    1,971
    Location:
    Boynton Beach, FL
    Who's G$?


    -Cheshire Black
     
  6. PaperstSoapCo

    PaperstSoapCo
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2007
    Messages:
    1,237
    Location:
    537 Paper Street - Bradford - 19808
    Marth player. He plays Falco to but who doesn't? He has vids up on the Genisis thread. Check em out.
     
  7. TP

    TP
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Master

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2008
    Messages:
    3,341
    Location:
    St. Louis, MO
    If you plan to start a weekly discussion, here's some friendly advice: whenever you start a discussion, go to that character's board and advertise it (probably in a major thread or a matchup thread). That way, the mains of the other character can give their input too. This leads to less people complaining about the conclusions later on.

    :034:
     
  8. spider_sense

    spider_sense
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Champion

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2007
    Messages:
    2,290
    Location:
    Miami, FL (Ives Dairy)
    I personally think the Marth match-up is 45-55, slightly in Marth's favor, it's just that Marth has slightly better spacing, and can pretty much edge guard Ganon with just a f-smash and neutral-b. It's still a pretty close match-up tho. =/

    @ Tommeh - I remember people would tell that you used to edge-guard Falco/Fox's up-b by doing constant up-airs (usually 3) with going down off the level. Is that true and if it is how did you do it?
     
  9. PaperstSoapCo

    PaperstSoapCo
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2007
    Messages:
    1,237
    Location:
    537 Paper Street - Bradford - 19808
    Twilight that is an amazing idea. I'll definitely do that and maybe drop some PM's to various players who are best with that main.

    Spider it's done how it sounds. Uair with the very tip so you don't trade hits. Versus Falco you can trade hits on the second one cause he is usually killed by his recovery. Versus Fox though is the only one I do a few on. Uair to kill the sweet spot then the second uair will push Fox far enough for the third one to be done off stage and getting the edge guard . When you uair off stage try to hit with the back of the uair hitbox.

    Uairhitbox

    See how it's a bit fatter behind the foot. Fast fall that on Fox as he launches off his upB and you won't trade hits. When Fox recovers a bit out away from under the stage he is forced to run into this or just go up and die. Just gotta put him in that position.
     
  10. Dorsey

    Dorsey
    Expand Collapse
    Banned (6 Points)

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1,593
    Location:
    the sticky bottom, NC ©Dorsey combo
    accurate stuff and nicely categorized too.. I do have a few random suggestions though that you may or may not consider.. but i'll ask questions first.

    How does ganon have the advantage on ice climbers? I've done several friendlies w/chu as ganon.. he avoids the dair spike very well, and i am exceptional at delivering it. The one time I did dair spike him, he recovered nicely as well. However i did bait his popo(sometimes both of them) with the wizards foot spike 3x off FD in 1 match lol, then 2x in another. After these 2 matches it was like he totally had my number though. Anyway, I definitely feel that IC>ganon, but I have to leave work soon.. i'll elaborate later.

    i'll get into mewtwo's -air mobility later as well...!
     
  11. SynikaL

    SynikaL
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    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2004
    Messages:
    1,971
    Location:
    Boynton Beach, FL
    Is that the spanish kid who was at your house when you were down? If so, not to be rude, but he didn't look like he knew what he was doing.

    I think the matchup is pretty even also, even on FD. Edgeguarding Ganon isn't easy if Ganon DIs well, unless he gets gimped hard. Both characters have similar advantages on smaller stages.

    -Kye
     
  12. Dorsey

    Dorsey
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    Banned (6 Points)

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    1,593
    Location:
    the sticky bottom, NC ©Dorsey combo
    Yeah, at the least I think you shouldn't have it listed as a 'medium/small' advantage and a 'small' against IC though, in my opinion.. being that in my personal experience i'd say that IC has the advantage 55/45 on ganon. Maybe i'm missing something though, idk. IC is a secondary char for me and used to be my main.. and the only match-up i've done more than IC vs ganon is ganon v. ganon lol.

    And synikaL, edgeguarding ganon is easy. Good DI just makes it BARELY less easy. Whenever I get my bro's ganon off the ledge and don't kill him i'm like **** i really just ****ed up. He has good DI, but ganon is just way too predictable.

    edit:

    Advantage
    Mewtwo..medium
    Link/Y.link..small

    Disadvantage
    IC..small
    jigglypuff..small/medium
    Fox..medium
    Falco..medium

    and maybe some of the chars in ganon's tier going from medium/small to small in adv....imo!
     
  13. SynikaL

    SynikaL
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2004
    Messages:
    1,971
    Location:
    Boynton Beach, FL
    That's your bro's Ganon. No offense, but your anecdotal evidence doesn't concern me. An experienced Ganon that DIs well can garner plenty of chances to get inside Marth's head to avoid his edge guard because he actually has options when coming in high. Edge guarding CAN be easy if the Ganon isn't smart/experienced. It can also be a pain. Especially when Ganon is around 90-160 or so.


    -Kye
     
  14. Dorsey

    Dorsey
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    Banned (6 Points)

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    Saying that the ganon isn't experienced is a double-edged sword because the edgeguarder could just as easily be not experienced..lol. Anyway, my brother has a little experience(-ACE-) and has pretty **** solid DI on his good days. All I have to say is that if you're getting mind****ed by ganon when he's off the edge with high %'s then the problem lies with your edgeguarding, no offense. (And i'm not talking about marth, i'm talking about with pretty much any character) Ganon's match-ups are debatable.. but this is not.
     
  15. SynikaL

    SynikaL
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    Lol, okay guy.


    Gotta love forum randoms.


    -Kye
     
  16. -ACE-

    -ACE-
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    Especially when they counter your arguments with facts. lol

    Ganon is difficult to edgeguard? you're a marth main aren't you?

    Good **** on this thread Tip, the Ganon Boards are too good.

    Also, great idea twilight, that should give us a lot of good feedback.
     
  17. SynikaL

    SynikaL
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    Show me where I stated Ganon is difficult to EG as an absolute. What *facts* did this guy give me?

    I've had years of experience in this matchup with one of the best Ganon players out there. I think I have something of an idea as to what I'm talking about.

    That's the thing about Smashboards; you want to have an intelligent discussion about character matchups, but you want to bring your community constructs along for the ride. Not happening. Why have the discussion at all?

    You want to peddle absolutes when discussing the specifics of high level play? Stupid. Just because Marth has some of the best EG tools in the game, doesn't mean Ganon automatically loses a stock when off stage, due to the nature of his recovery. At high levels, there are variables to consider that will effect outcomes.

    Ganon gets harder to kill for Marth as he gets higher in percentage. Nothing but a F. Smash tipper will kill Ganon definitively above 90% because nothing combos into anything. With good DI and smart decision making (i.e eating a non-tipper forward smash to give yourself more flexibility in how you can recover), Ganon can be a pain for anyone to edge guard.

    If Marth doesn't get creative with his edgeguard, a good Ganon can get around it. Done. You're not just going to sit on stage and F. Smash or D. Tilt Tommy's Ganon, Linguini's Ganon, or even my Ganon.

    Obviously, Marth has the definitive advantage when Ganon is off stage, and is where Marth looks to win the general battle. But again, if we're just going to sit here and state the obvious, in an absolute fashion, like your friend Dorsey, this discussion wouldn't be worth sh*t, would it?

    -Kye
     
  18. -ACE-

    -ACE-
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    I'm aware of your years of experience with Tipman. This is mainly why I was surprised at you saying it isn't easy to edgeguard Ganon (btw, I'm very sorry I replaced "isn't easy" with "difficult" lol). You're making this out to be more complicated than it is.

    Community Constructs? lol. No one person or area is the law of the land on Ganon matchups. I think you get offended a little too easily by others voicing opinions that don't exactly parallel your own.
     
  19. Dorsey

    Dorsey
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    I wouldn't have been as harsh while calling you out but instead you assumed that you're at such a higher level or something so try coming across a little nicer and be open-minded next time. It's people like YOU who make forum discussion not worth a ****. I have more respect for people in general not to do that. and yeah, I may be the forum random but at least i'm not the guy who rides tipman's **** 24/7 just repeating what he says, lol.

    Anyway, your original statement I was addressing is that 'ganon is not easy to edgeguard because of good DI and mind games on the ganon player's part'. I said that you're wrong and it's easy...........because it is. Maybe you shouldn't have been so obviously wrong about something and I wouldn't have stated the obvious? I mean c'mon.. what do you want me to say synikal? I'm sorry that after your years of practicing with one of the best ganons in the world that you still suck at edgeguarding him? hahah ;)

    it's not hard to get creative with your edgeguarding to kill ganon with almost any character.. and no i'm not saying i'm 100% proficient at EGing him with all chars.. but i AM saying, that if you don't consistently kill ganon the vast majority of the time when you get him off the edge while maining marth then you are doing something wrong, period.

    sorry for de-railing your new thread tip. I probably should have started a thread, but no more needs to be said on the matter anyway.
     
  20. SynikaL

    SynikaL
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    How old are you two? Serious question, as it will let me know if I'm truly wasting my time.

    That's because it is more complicated than you're making it, and my point is, if you're not going to actually deconstruct the matchup, what is there to discuss? Just take your absolutes, toss them on the roundtable like trinkets and construct your equation, then.

    Marth Edge Guard + Ganon's Recovery = Marth wins.

    On to the next character!


    You don't even know what I mean by "community constructs", do you?

    And I'm hardly offended. I'm merely direct. Don't confuse the two.

    Nice try, kid. Unfortunately for you, evidence contradicts that childish remark, as me and Tipman actually disagree on most things and he's likely to disagree with me here, too.

    So what top tier Ganons did you play on a consistent basis to come to that conclusion?

    Again, what makes you the expert to state I'm so "obviously wrong"? You didn't address any of the details I gave in my last post; just responded with a bunch of general bullsh*t that defines the forum scrub. It's obvious you only have a general idea of what the matchup looks like due to your simple arguments. You're not knowledgeable in the matchup, you're good at reading forums.


    Nothing's derailed, there's discussion happening; you just don't know what the f*ck you're talking about.

    -Kimo
     
  21. PaperstSoapCo

    PaperstSoapCo
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    Jiggs I don't know man. I have a whole different approach vs Jiggs that I don't see many Ganons use. Angle up ftilt and auto canceled shffl uairs are nice to keep some space and get some hits or trade at the least. Then things like sh bair and full jump reverse uair are the gimmies. If you're above Jiggs your reverse uair beats out her bair cause of the angle it hits. I learned this playing N2k5-6-what ever year he goes by now. I did this vs Vanz and it helped but he did beat me most of the matches. I didn't feel I was on my A game and didn't capitalize like I should have. I will play him again but it should be small disadvantage if anything. I'll try and get vids so you guys can get how I approach Jiggs. I still do feel I can beat her easy, just gotta freshen the memory.

    ICs don't have the advantage or at least from the way I've played em they don't get me as bad. I don't jump at all vs IC's unless I'm camping on a platform. My approach is simple and seems to work well. I just walk real slow towards em with angle down ftilts and jabs. Sounds too simple but it punishes IC's wavedash and helps break ice cubes once they try to get on the defense. During that I just look for an opening during a desync where I can hit Nana and split em up. I literally hold the stick just a fraction forward so I get the slowest walk possible. I have yet to play Chus climbers, without a doubt he is the best, but I played a player in the souf (I forget his name) who was known for getting that jab infinite and just gimping stocks. I know there is a lot more to IC's but that is why I feel Ganon has the advantage cause when there are two he can split them easy and when there is one he has massive priority that he couldn't have when they're together

    The Mewtwo air mobility and stuff like that is way off. The Link/Y.link thing is something I kinda agree with cause they are tough. This is an old thread I'm trying to get revised and there is a lot to work on still as far as specifics go. The first list could use some tweaking too. I don't mind any suggestions, like my older thread this is a community thread. I don't claim to be the best that's why I wanna hear what everyone has to say.

    Synikal G$ is a NY player. You didn't meet him. Lawl @ Dorsey saying you agree with everything I say cause it's NEVER that. Marth can KO Ganon easy but the high percent thing you say is true. If Ganon is forced to come from under the stage or above at high percents he can get a tech bair or just land inside Marths tipper to get an other chance. This can lead to multiple edge guard attempts without Marth getting touched before he kills Ganon but if you mess up you know it's gonna be hard getting that momentum back as Marth.

    Ganon has soo many gimps and tricks in this match it's hilarious. But Marth has the same ****. I'll elaborate on those later. Right now I gotta be out. Tomorrow or the day after, kinda busy, I'll toss PMs and what not and the first discussion can be Marth. It's the match everyone has done and everyone can talk about. Things like Mewtwo and DK are tougher to get a healthy discussion on cause so few good players main these two.

    Anyways vs Marth it feels pretty even but the stage can make all the difference.
     
  22. spider_sense

    spider_sense
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    LOL I remember we had this same exact discussion at the Nexus, remember Kye? You can't really ignore Ganon's huge hitbox. Ganon really, really has to be weary on using his jumps wisely. The matchup is somewhat even, because it is fairly difficult on Marth to get Ganon off the stage, especially with proper DI from the Ganon's part, however I do think Marth can walk away with the stock once he gets Ganon off the edge. Seriously, if you can tell me how to get away from Marth's neutral-b, I'd would really like to here it; his forward smash can be teched, but even that becomes difficult at a higher percent.
     
  23. SynikaL

    SynikaL
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    Neutral B is highly situational for Marth. The only time he would pull it out is if Ganon is far out and forced to Up B parallel to the stage, and Marth recognizes that Ganon can't clear him -- he has to go for the ledge. This usually happens if Ganon's DI isn't on point. Not something that should cause Ganon tons of trouble, specifically. Teching Neutral B is unlikely, though possible, since it pushes out during hit lag.

    I'm actually shocked Tommy and I finally agree on this matchup. This used to be an eternal debate for us, lol.

    Tommy, what are your stage opinions.


    -Kimo
     
  24. PaperstSoapCo

    PaperstSoapCo
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    Dream land is great for Ganon. Platforms are just high enough and the level is humongous. I've always been a battle field fan but I've lost a few times there. Can't really say whats good for Marth cause the gimps are even on both sides. I don't know, they both just rock each other. YS sounds like a Marth stage but ledge dashing after losing a stock as Ganon is soo good.
     
  25. SynikaL

    SynikaL
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    I've never liked small stages vs. Ganon. I used to hate playing you on Battlefield -- the platforms are so close together, that they make fighting on that stage more cramped than it should be. Add to the fact that the borders themselves are quite large, so I feel it is the perfect Ganon stage.

    I think YS goes to Marth, but only if the Marth is disciplined. That means, the majority of his approach is with grabs and he isn't SHFFLing casually. Otherwise, I think Ganon eats him there.

    The larger stages like Dreamland, FD and Poke' I think are more even. Marth has breathing room and Ganon has enough mobility to be patient, and capitalize on openings.

    -Kimo
     
  26. spider_sense

    spider_sense
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    I don't usually don't like platform levels for Marth, just because he can space his f-smash, and the tip of the sword can cross through most platforms, and usually hit Ganon's feet, even if you manage to block.
     
  27. -ACE-

    -ACE-
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    Gotem City Vigilante

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    It doesn't even matter, but I'm older than you lol.

    After taking one look at your post, yes.

    Now that that's done...

    Imo Marth always has a slight advantage on all the neutral stages. DL64 is my personal favorite, due to platform height and survivability. I'd say 55/45 overall. I usually ban FoD but that's just because I suck there lol.
     
  28. SynikaL

    SynikaL
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    Ace:

    Good post. You're obviously not as stupid as your friend.

    Oh, and nice skirt.


    -Kimo
     
  29. Dorsey

    Dorsey
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    FYI, when I said 'bro' I meant he's my actual brother, and we're both 2 of the oldest people by far in our state's smash scene. So saying that i'm stupid and he's not is a little disingenuous being that are outlooks on smash are basically paralleled. You wouldn't have got a derogatory response from me if 1) you didn't assume that i'm a dumb kid and 2) if you didn't assume that I'm some random newb. You have taken literally half of the things I said out of context because seemingly you are so dead set on proving a point that it doesn't matter if the argument is comprehensible or not. (questioning my expertise to state the obvious when it doesn't take an expert to even state the obvious.. i mean c'mon lol) And of course I'm not responding to any of your points directly. WHY WOULD I when this entire ordeal is due to you taking **** out of context and making assumptions??

    When I said edgeguarding ganon is easy, i did NOT mean with marth, even though it applies to him as well.(everyone has been addressing it as if i'm talking about marth... i just said especially for a marth main). Ganon is just very easy to edgeguard in general. Him and CF too are just so predictable. In marth's case, you just have to be systematic and patient(knowing when to wd grab ledge so he lands on stage + come back up and send him back off the edge, knowing that if he goes too low he is dead guaranteed, etc.. point is you can always compensate ganon's mind games/DI somehow)......the stock is almost guaranteed for marth if he gets ganon off the edge, which is why I originally said "it's easy which is why every time I miss the edgeguard i'm like ****.. I really ****ed up". And yeah, whenever I see ganon avoid edgeguards like that I'm always like Good **** ganon!... but in actuality it's mostly bad **** on marth's part by far.

    I am well aware that there are 'other variables' are involved but i was considering all of those variables initially with my statement. If you hadn't assumed this from the get go, as well as other things, this discussion would have went in a different direction.

    tipman:

    I can see what you're talking about with IC although I feel that it's a little closer than this guide depicts. Still, good stuff written on it and it changed my opinion somewhat.

    As for jiggs, i'm going to have to disagree due to times changing a little bit... but before I get into that... have you gotten to play any GOOD jiggs players recently? I'm asking because i don't want to pull a synikal and assume that you haven't and base my entire argument off an assumption(s), it's not my style lol.

    So we agree on y.link/link.....as for mewtwo. His neutral air owns man. Of course, ganon rapes the neutral air back if you use the edge of the hitbox but mew2 can definitely mind game ganon with his tricky movement to get naired / miss that part of the hitbox. In regards to my comment about his -air mobility, I just thought it was kind of awkward being that mewtwo just rapes in the air, esp. off-stage. Yes, he's a floaty *****, but he can gimp people farther out than any other character. anyway, not a big deal... Ganon owns mewtwo. I've just played the match up quite a few times and feel that it should be medium and not med/big.. I think a slight change in the spacies disadvantage is necessary as well thanks to pasta.

    I don't claim to know everything either, i just enjoy the discussion. I know you're good tip, and being good while still being open-minded to everyone elses's opinion only makes you better, of course. Narrow-mindedness is the worst approach you can take with a game like this.........not that i am referring to anyone specific :) Thanks for the response.

    ps. me and ace will be getting a capture card soon to take advantage of living with each other for the time being and recording a bunch of ganon vids (dittos and some interesting match-ups for gano)..they'll be up sometime in august!
     
  30. PaperstSoapCo

    PaperstSoapCo
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    [​IMG]
    This is one, if not the most even match other than a ditto Ganon has. Though Marth can overwhelm Ganon with his grab range and ground speed the priority and attack range of both these characters leave neither with the definite advantage. Marth is often in the position to initiate most of the hits but Ganons knock back is the ultimate equalizer.

    Now with the introduction out the way feel free to discuss things such as stage counter picks, edge guarding strategies, combat strategies, what NOT to do, viable tricks and gimmick.

    Those are the basic categories the indepth portion of the thread with consist of as well as vids that demonstrate them.

    Ganon
    +Weight
    +/Power
    +/Edge guarding
    -/Range
    -/Air mobility
    -/Evasive tactics
    -/Recovery
    -Speed
    -Lag
    -Mobility


    Marth
    +Disjointed hitbox
    +Mobility
    +Evasive tactics
    +Speed
    +Lag
    +Edge guarding
    +/Range
    +/Air mobility
    +/Recovery
    -/Power
    -Weight

    [​IMG]
    Ganon
    *Reverse uair can hit Marth's recovery when sweet spotted.
    *Bair can get through a lot, if not all of Marth's airs.
    *Light shielding by the edge causes Marths upB to push you into an edge hog.
    *Gerudo dragon when blocked can push Marth far enough to avoid getting shield grabbed.
    *Downthrow leads to uair or bair almost always.
    *At 0% you can down throw and get an other grab on Marth.
    *Marths SH double fairs can be intercepted with uair out of shield after blocking the first one.


    Marth
    *Ganon can get comboed by fairs and nairs.
    *Fsmash has a huge hitbox that is impenetrable by Ganon's airs or tilts.
    *The third hit of dancing dolphin (downB only) knocks Ganon far enough for him to shield grab
    *Fthrow and dthrow leave Ganon open for easy tech chases.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    [​IMG]
    Coming soon.
    [​IMG]
    Coming soon.
    [​IMG]
    Coming soon.
    [​IMG]
    Coming soon.

    Updated some of the Mewtwo and Link stuff. I'll screen it when I have time to clear out other outdated info.

    I'll be tossing hitting up the Marth boards to see what they say. I can already see my favorite part of the thread is going to be the "What NOT to do" section. DIing into Marth's aerials is probably one of em.

    Looking forward to those vids with you and ACE. Oh, and I played Vanz Jiggs most recently. He is good. Like I said I lost but I think that'll change this weekend. I know you're lurking Vanz, Imma getcha.:uzi:
     
  31. -ACE-

    -ACE-
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    My opinions on what Ganon should do vs Marth:

    -Spaced bairs work best against his general approach (nair, fair)

    -Uair OoS between fairs to beat sh double fair approach.

    -Fairs should usually be retreating, the spacing is tricky for this matchup.

    -Grabs are important, use mainly dthrow as you can pretty much always get a free aerial (until med-high%.. Magus? lol)

    -upB OoS after blocking a fsmash can be a good option at med-high percents.

    -Get consistent at ledge-teching shield breaker (B), fsmash, and dtilts. After a tech you can up-B him, or after a walltech you can bair Marth far enough away to ensure a safe recovery.

    -Be very careful using the Wizard's foot while recovering, as Marth can punish this even more efficiently than other Ganons.

    -DI AWAY. And just for those who came in late: DI AWAY lol. In my experience, it's not fun to get fair fair fair fair dair'd lol. In most cases Marth should never get more than a 2-3 hit combo on Ganon.

    -Dthrow at 0-15%(?) can lead into a dsmash (not sure on specifics) and even a bit higher if they DI behind. I'm actually not sure if this is guaranteed, but this sets you up for some great combo's (EX: Magus's dthrow>dsmash>dair>down-B techchase)

    -Reverse uair is a very useful edgeguard. Always try to use the very tip of the toe (frame 16 to be precise) which won't trade hits with Marth's up-B.

    -From zero you can chaingrab Marth with dthrow 2-3 times I believe.

    -drop zone uair, dair, and fair as well as ledgedrop uair/bair are situational but very effective edgeguards.

    -Use the "marth killer" edgehog when you know marth won't be able to up-B onto the stage (roll to edge holding Z and as soon as the light shield comes up hold away from the stage - tip of marth's upB will force you to ledge bc of your DI and he will get edgehogged).

    -Dtilt can be useful in this matchup due to its range and usually leads to a uair (low/med%).

    -Dair to grab is a good option at low %

    This was just off the top, just trying to contribute lol, can't think of it all atm.
     
    TidalWave likes this.
  32. spider_sense

    spider_sense
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    Great advice Ace!
     
  33. SynikaL

    SynikaL
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    I wouldn't have needed to take that tone if it wasn't for the clear posturing you presented with this crap:

    "All I have to say is that if you're getting mind****ed by ganon when he's off the edge with high %'s then the problem lies with your edgeguarding, no offense."

    This is classic forum scrub posing. I gave you a detailed analysis of the situation, and you respond with a general idea with a not-so-suggestive insult. How about showing why my analysis was wrong?

    And again, what top Ganon players have you consistently played? You continue to ignore questioning.


    No. That's not how this works. Again, you generalize. If you make the accusation that I am taking your messages out of context, the onus is on you to prove how. Show me the words I've disfigured and set me straight accordingly.

    Unfortunately for you, that isn't actually the case or you wouldn't have hesitated to do this. It's just clear that only one of us has a detailed understanding of what's going on, so generalization is all you have.


    You've got not only me, but you've got Tipman telling you the situation is "Not so obvious". You might want to either address him, the details I've given, or just shut up at this point.

    What you call "obvious" is you running away from a deconstruction of the Marth vs. Ganon Edgeguard metagame. You're running for the "obvious" general idea -- Marth beats Ganon off the edge. Again, if we're just going to peddle obvious general ideas, what's the point?

    :rolleyes:

    You mean; you were being general in response to something I was being specific about? Ya don't say!


    Lots of backpeddling here, but you gave details! Circa 05' details, but details, nonetheless!

    Now, to criticize, yes, what you described is one situation that tends to crop up occasionally in the edge guard meta, but it's still somewhat general so it doesn't take into account platforms, that give Ganon the option to ledge cancel his recovery, or land on a specific portion of the platform to avoid F. Smash tippers. It also doesn't take into account the fact that Marth must commit to letting go of the ledge, leaving him open to be mind gamed. Remember, anything less than a tipper at higher percents, gives Ganon another shot at coming back to the stage and you can only guess right against a good player so many times.

    We have to assume the Ganon has a brain, yes?

    And Tommy brought up a great point about momentum which is incredibly important in this matchup and crucial for Marth in general.


    Again, no one cares about your generalizations. Any discussion that doesn't consider the details is fruitless. Everyone already understands Marth is strong when Ganon is off the stage, it's just not as simple as people that only read forums, watch videos and play their friends tend to think it is.

    -Kimo
     
  34. CluelessBTD

    CluelessBTD
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    What would you guys do if Marth B-Throws you repeatedly? Theoretically, he could just wait to see where you tech and chase endlessly, or at least till you DI off the stage to set up his edgeguard.

    If you DI away:
    If you tech roll away, he can chase and regrab. If you roll towards, he just stands in place and regrabs. If you don't tech, he f-smashes or waits for the get-up attack and regrabs.

    If you DI towards:
    He can fsmash you correct? I don't feel like setting up my cube right to test, I'm just guessing.
     
  35. DippnDots

    DippnDots
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    You can jump out of the back throw if you DI up no? On FD this would be stupid but wavelanding onto a platform could give you the space you need to get away. Given, being above marth sucks, but at least you have freedom of movement.
     
  36. Pyrostormer

    Pyrostormer
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    The Anti-WOP is very effective against Marth.
     
  37. -ACE-

    -ACE-
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    Wow SynikaL. lmfao.

    Dorsey just tell him he wins or something so he'll quit posting walls of useless/redundant text.

    Sometimes you just gotta let the baby have his(her?) way.
     
  38. Dorsey

    Dorsey
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    haha agreed.
     
  39. SynikaL

    SynikaL
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    I'm pretty sure nothing is guaranteed after B Throw, ever. It doesn't even offer enough positive frames to yield adequate tech read possibilities. In the years I've been around, I have yet find a decent use for B Throw and I've tried.


    Dorsey & ACE:

    That's fine, do whatever you have to to save face. Seeing as I was the only that offered any worthwhile details on the subject, I'm confident anyone following can differentiate between your scrubbish generalizations and what I had to say. Especially since Dorsey still can't bother to show how/why I am wrong or how I'm taking his words out of context.

    -Kye
     
  40. DippnDots

    DippnDots
    Expand Collapse
    Feral Youth

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2006
    Messages:
    2,149
    Location:
    Cbus, Ohio
    mid percents, not sure exactly when, on yoshis it'll pop them up onto a platform for a tipper KO
     

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