Ganon vs.

[-ACE-]

Falcon can DI left/right out of the uthrow to avoid cg as well.

 

[Renth]

Agreed with Dthrow, but what about Up-throw? I haven't tested, but it sounds reasonable.

up throw CG = impossible

 

[SynikaL]

Falcon is too heavy to be Chain Grabbed.


-Kimo

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

I might go to FL Gaming, if I can get a ride, if I do show up. Look for a sexy black dude rockin' a small fro. lol

if you do go, want to team finally?

And yeah, they can DI out of u throw, so it'll never be a chain throw unless they don't DI.

if u dont think marth has a disadvantage then loll

just ask kage how he does vs mew2king's marth

he beats it alot

why do u think mew2king went shiek vs kage at genesis?

Kage has never beaten M2K's marth in Tourney, let alone many friendlies.

Marth definitely doesn't lose to Ganon, lol


He went Sheik because A. Its easier. B. He mains Sheik now. C. Because he felt like it.

 

[Dorsey]

Falcon is too heavy to be Chain Grabbed.


-Kimo

It's not that he's too heavy, it's that his horizontal aerial mobility far exceeds that of fox and falco (characters with similar fall speeds), and thus allows him to be able to DI the dthrow far enough away to avoid the regrab attempt whereas they (fox and falco) cannot.

 

[SynikaL]

It's not that he's too heavy, it's that his horizontal aerial mobility far exceeds that of fox and falco (characters with similar fall speeds), and thus allows him to be able to DI the dthrow far enough away to avoid the regrab attempt whereas they (fox and falco) cannot.

Wow. Okay, a lot of people don't know this so you get a pass.

Falcon's aerial mobility has nothing to do with his DI. Only when he jumps.

How quickly a character recovers from a grab is dependent upon their weight class. If the character is heavy, there's more recovery frames than if the character is light. This is why Fox and Falco can be Chain Grabbed to an extent, but Falcon cannot -- he's a heavy fast faller.

-Kimo

 

[Dorsey]

Falcon's aerial mobility has nothing to do with his DI. Only when he jumps.

Only somewhat true. Fox and Falco simply cannot move as far horizontally in the same amount of time as Falcon can, be it from jumping or from being thrown.

How quickly a character recovers from a grab is dependent upon their weight class. If the character is heavy, there's more recovery frames than if the character is light.
This is why Fox and Falco can be Chain Grabbed to an extent, but Falcon cannot -- he's a heavy fast faller.

-Kimo

True (common knowledge), but this is completely irrelevant, as if Falcon does not DI hard in or away he can get easily regrabbed. In fact Ganon can also do this with uthrow also lol. It simply doesn't lag the throw enough.

 

[SynikaL]

I know Falcon can be regrabbed if he doesn't DI. We're talking about legitimate Chaingrabbing aren't we? The main reason Falcon can't be legitimately CG'd is because he's a heavy fast faller.

But whatever, he can't be CG'd legit. Toss me the link explaining that a character's aerial mobility effects their DI, please. That's news to me.

-Kimo

 

[Dorsey]

Of course we are talking about legitimate Chaingrabbing lol. Oh well.

I explained what I meant by aerial mobility in my last post.

 

[SynikaL]

What? No you didn't. You just used the phrase, casually, as though it meant something specific in regards to DI.

"Horizontal Aerial Mobility" would be known by the community at large as a character's capacity to move forward and maintain momentum in the air at a horizontal velocity (someone else correct me if I'm wrong). As far as I know; this has never extended to DI.

-Kimo

 

[Dorsey]

What? No you didn't. You just used the phrase, casually, as though it meant something specific in regards to DI.

Lol. No, you're just making that up. Here's the line (that apparently you missed?) explaining what I meant by saying that Falcon's horizontal mobility exceeds that of Fox and Falco.

"Fox and Falco simply cannot move as far horizontally in the same amount of time as Falcon can, be it from jumping or from being thrown."

It should be pretty simple to follow imo. Oh well lol, I don't really care anymore.

 

[SynikaL]

I'll admit I missed that. But again, that's not proof that their inability to jump forward fast and far relative to Falcon, is somehow correlated to their inability to DI as far (or proof that Falcon can DI relatively farther in that situation at all).

Please, show me where you read this.

-Kimo

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Sorry for being so uninvolved with the thread lately. Ace thanks for looking up that chain grab thing. I'll be fixing that, tossing in my two cents and making tweaks and updates soon.

Got some matches in with a few Marth's today. I still believe it's even though I know I won most of them since the Marth players I played weren't too familiar with the match up. I got to meet and play Techzero. Hopefully he'll drop a line.

I also got to play Vanz Jiggs today. Though I ended up losing in tournament to it I still say it's a small advantage for Ganon. I'll put it as disadvantage though cause my feelings don't stand up to the results. When I change that, I'll change the list. :uzi:

Tomorrow I'll update and post what I've collected from you guys and we'll move on from there.

As far as combat strategies go for Marth what's your take on that? How do you approach? Do you camp? What openings are you looking for? What does he do to bait you into getting hit?

 

[CluelessBTD]

I guess I mostly camp Marth and just space as perfectly as I can. If I think he's going to try to approach with Fairs, I just get ready to crouch cancel jab or shield and counter with Uair. My main objective when fighting Marth is to avoid being grabbed while trying to land a Fair and just chase him till he's off the stage. Light shield edgehog and lights out.

 

[Smile]

I guess I mostly camp Marth and just space as perfectly as I can. If I think he's going to try to approach with Fairs, I just get ready to crouch cancel jab or shield and counter with Uair. My main objective when fighting Marth is to avoid being grabbed while trying to land a Fair and just chase him till he's off the stage. Light shield edgehog and lights out.

Yeah, I do the same against the Fair approach.

Also in case not already mentioned, if you get middle to below the stage recovering vs. any good Marth, you're done if he pokes you with pretty much anything (lol, never had one try an Uair yet).

 

[Dorsey]

Lol synikal.. I don't recall reading it anywhere. When i'm trying to give insight on something i don't say things that I've read or what people have told me..it's just from my own experience with it.. and if I read it somewhere then tested it myself I'd have no problem linking you.

Experiment with it yourself and you should see what i'm talking about. it's fairly apparent imo.. it's not like there's crazy air accel. like in other games I'm used to. But if you have a specific question ask. I don't want to sound like a broken record and repeat what I've already said.

edit:

I'd say that the puff move is a good decision tip. I'm not sure if you playing vanz's jiggs is the best indicator of the match-up itself.. i'd like to see a vids.

 

[-ACE-]

This is pretty basic but I'm just throwing in my 2 cents:

When fighting Marth I spend a decent amount of time with my back toward him so I can bair his nairs and fairs. When facing marth, I generally keep a safer distance so that it's easier to space the fair. If Marth jumps I usually uair him immediately, and if he misses the DI you can uair him again.

My favorite approach is probably perfect waveland to ftilt from a shorthop or dj. It covers a lot of ground, which is very useful against marths that love to keep their distance. The ftilt itself has great range and priority when spaced and timed correctly. When marth is at very low % you can sometimes follow up with a quick (try to be frame-perfect) dash to jc grab, which sets you up for a free aerial.

When Marth is on the edge I like to keep the pressure on him with bair. Don't let him lure you in too close to the edge and try to mindgame him into thinking it's ok to get up and then bair him. When the bair is timed right it covers many options (get up, get up attack, ledgehop - depending on inv. frames). It's often that jumping onto one of the lower platforms on YS, DL64, and BF can lure marth into a false sense of security and he will try to get up from the ledge, which sets up for a drop-through bair. You just have to get used to dropping through the platform and bair'ing as soon as possible. Kage is really good at this.

When Ganon is on the ledge and Marth is pressuring him, there are so many options. Once you find an opening, you can jump, ledge dash to jab/grab, as well as ledgehop grab - all useful. Sometimes when I panic I roll lol, and since I rarely roll from the edge I usually don't get punished for it. There is really so much to be said here but I don't want to overstep my boundaries.

Keep in mind that ledge dash > jab and ledgehop > grab are invincible when executed frame-perfect from grabbing the ledge.

Here's an random example of how ledgehop grab can be useful (although in this case whether it's invincible or not wouldn't matter):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKISqEHMC_I#t=1m04s

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Vanz's Jiggs isn't bad but I can already see gimps I get vs Jiggs. Dthrow fair at certain percents is game and her aerial game doesn't congest my play style too much. It's only edge guarding. Maybe I don't know how or it doesn't exist ( except bairs and **** ) but I have to kill Jiggs every time with an aerial instead of getting her to use all her jumps. Not that it's hard but that is what makes this match different from the others. They recorded it but it'll probably be a while before it's uploaded.

Stage counter picks for Marth. Any favorites? Battle field is my main stage for anything even matches that I lose one that stage I pick it. Dreamland looks like a definite Ganon stage since tippers on platforms don't exist and it's a bit easier to survive up to around 200%+.Yoshi story I don't like but I've beaten Marth there. FD is real nice for Marth.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Ace nice post. The bair thing is too true. Fair once in a while but bairs and landdashes is works for spacing. Be careful you don't get fsmashed though. Any air Ganon doe he can get Fsmashed out of. I try to space pretty close to at least trade. I've been finding myself not like aerial approaches as much any more. Though they get the job done.

I got the edge gaurding and what not to do's up. The other two sections I'm working on.

 

[Dorsey]

You and vanz are both own, I was just saying I don't think it epitomizes the ganon v. match-up... just from vanz maining peach and i'm guessing you haven't played the top tier jiggly's(i'm thinking mango and hbox when i say this) recently. Which I haven't either, lol.. you know what i'm saying.

 

[Cia]

i didn't know you posted on the boards this much. haha.

Anyway, :subscribes:

Oh, and I only got the first match of our winner finals set. Alex should still have the other three, so i'm going to ask if he can upload them.

Dorsey - here's the match i put up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38PTw_6mMi4

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Dorsey I've played many good Jiggs and Peach's. I played Mike G back when he used to play and Comp. XIF as well I've played a lot. I'm not basing anything off of one person. I've played a few Jiggs. The only two I played that we good were Vanz and N2k6. N2K6 didn't place well but he knew how to play against my Ganon (we'd play for hours). That's why I don't feel to uncomfortable with the match and talking about it. IC's on the other hand I really can't say much without speculating most of it.

Vanz you have 5,000+ post. That crazy. I don't post much I just keep an eye on the Ganon boards. If you didn't notice our boards are the best. You can learn Ganon in an hour of reading our boards.

 

[CluelessBTD]

If you didn't notice our boards are the best. You can learn Ganon in an hour of reading our boards.

That's because all us Ganon mains strive to be the best. I just watched some of your new vids Tip and your Ganon is still too good. You just have a very unique and creative style. Also, I noticed you are pretty technical. Do you have any kinda miniscule controller mod or do you just have mechanical fingers? I've always felt limited by my hands. They just can't do what I'm thinking in my head. It's probably from the years of injury from fights and manual labor

Anyway, against Marth...if you manage to get him to put up his shield, trick him into trying to shield grab you by l-canceling a Bair on his toe and going straight into fsmash. The lean back will avoid the grab. Just a random idea.

 

[-ACE-]

I like DL64 a lot for marth, but I also feel at home on BF and FD. Some Ganons like to avoid FD in this matchup, but they shouldn't imo. There is sooo much room to space your attacks.

I would most likely ban FoD or YS. My overall game on FoD use to suck but I'm starting to get better.

Any thoughts on PS? When the stage transforms I try to play more carefully and patient as there are many spots that leave you open to approaches. I usually stay grounded a bit more also.

 

[SynikaL]

Mechanical digits. I built em'. You want a set or two? They don't come cheap. $1,500 per hand; fees include parts and labor. I construct them from the finest ores and metals found in the bowels of Boynton Beach city.

I have a pair, but it hurts when I pet myself.


-Kye

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

I kinda like YS but edge guarding and being edge guarded on platforms there is a problem. Haven't played FoD vs Marth much cause almost everyone hates that stage. Marth sounds like he'd do great there. I don't wanna find out.

PS is nice. I like the rock formation and the one with the bush best. The dead tree one isn't to bad but I often get the worst end of the trades there. Camping on PS is the same for me on any level. I'd prefer to camp near an edge and switch it up. The windmill is nice but when I'm there long I get uairs coming at me like crazy. I'd prefer to stay on the edge and evade low percent dealing dthrows.

 

[CluelessBTD]

Mechanical digits. I built em'. You want a set or two? They don't come cheap. $1,500 per hand; fees include parts and labor. I construct them from the finest ores and metals found in the bowels of Boynton Beach city.

I have a pair, but it hurts when I pet myself.


-Kye

LOL wow, do you take paypal? Seriously though, there are pro guitarists who have had their finger joints replaced by smooth synthetic joints.

 

[SynikaL]

Word? That's crazy. How much does something like that cost?

*Googles*


-Kimo

 

[spider_sense]

..... =(.....

 

[TresChikon]

I'll admit I missed that. But again, that's not proof that their inability to jump forward fast and far relative to Falcon, is somehow correlated to their inability to DI as far (or proof that Falcon can DI relatively farther in that situation at all).

Please, show me where you read this.

-Kimo

So, I'm trying to get to the point of the whole discussion.

Is is or is it not because of Falcon's superior ability to NDI compared to Fox/Falco that allows him to escape Ganon's CG?

EDIT: Doraki's DI guide and the Compendium of Knowledge from GameFaqs explains this concept.

 

[CluelessBTD]

Here's a little gimp I got on Marth a while back, before I started light shield edgehogging so much.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnr40bhZ8wA#t=40s

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Ganon
+Weight
+/Power
+/Edge guarding
-/Range
-/Air mobility
-/Evasive tactics
-/Recovery
-Speed
-Lag
-Mobility


Marth
+Disjointed hitbox
+Mobility
+Evasive tactics
+Speed
+Lag
+Edge guarding
+/Range
+/Air mobility
+/Recovery
-/Power
-Weight

Ganon
*Reverse uair can hit Marth's recovery when sweet spotted.
*Bair can get through a lot, if not all of Marth's airs.
*Light shielding by the edge causes Marth's upB to push you into an edge hog.
*Gerudo dragon when blocked can push Marth far enough to avoid getting shield grabbed.
*Downthrow leads to uair or bair almost always.
*At 0% you can down throw and get an other grab on Marth.
*Marth's SH double fairs can be intercepted with uair out of shield after blocking the first one.

Marth
*Ganon can get comboed by fairs and nairs.
*Fsmash has a huge hitbox that is impenetrable by Ganon's airs or tilts when spaced right.
*The third hit of dancing dolphin (downB only) knocks Ganon far enough for him to shield grab
*Fthrow and dthrow leave Ganon open for easy tech chases.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When fighting Marth spend a decent amount of time with your back toward him. Bairs are great vs his nairs and fairs. Careful when spacing this that you don't get fsmashed. When facing Marth, generally keep a safer distance so that it's easier to space the fair. ACE's favored approach is perfect wavelanding to ftilt from a shorthop or double jump. It covers a lot of ground, which is very useful against Marths that love to keep their distance. When Marth is on the edge you can keep the pressure on him with bair. You can also fair him when he gets up and sheilds to reset him back off stage. Don't let him lure you in too close to the edge. Try to mindgame him into thinking it's ok to get up and then bair him. Fair is optional but more situational. When the bair is timed right it covers many options (get up, get up attack, ledgehop - depending on inv. frames). Jumping onto one of the lower platforms on YS, DL64, and BF can lure Marth into a false sense of security and he will try to get up from the ledge, which sets up for a drop-through bair. You just have to get used to dropping through the platform and bair'ing as soon as possible. Kage is really good at this. - ACE's analysis with a few extra notes. Thanks for a great analysis.

It's pretty safe to run out or stay on stage wait for Marth. Reverse up air is standard. Even though you can always light shield by the edge, reverse uair is the surest option you have. Light shield edge hogs are almost always effective. Sometimes you can miss the edge hog if Marth hits the shield right which isn't fun at all. Your two favorable options are get the edge hog and KO or get the edge hog and have Marth land on stage. When he lands you can ledge hop uair or ledge hop grab. Marth's vulnerability during his recovery is an issue he has for who ever he's facing and it's no different with Ganon.

#1. Unless you're at very high percent DIing into or up from fairs is a big no no. DI away.
#2. When recovering with an up B from above unless you're sure of it never go to the edge. It's best to just land right next to Marth and reduce your chances of getting gimped or tippered.

Ganon's favor
Battle field
Dreamland
Marth's favor
Fountain of dreams
Toss up
Yoshi Story
Pokemon stadium
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's what the Marth section is looking like. Big thanks to ACE for putting out so much info. Helped a lot. I reworded and added to your post but when reading it you'll see it's the same exact thing. If anything is missing, feels out of place or is just wrong in this section let me know. Final thoughts tomorrow or you guys can just request a new character to discuss.

Clue that edge guard is hilarious. That Marth had no faith in you being consistent with uairs. I bet he switched it up after that day.

 

[Magus420]

Ganon can't CG Falcon because he's much heavier than Fox/Falco, and the d-throw is among throws that are affected and slowed down by the weight (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=206469). D-throw vs CF has 21 frames of lag vs 15/16 frames on Fox/Falco. Because of this, he is able to tech before you have time to catch him with the grab while with the other two the lag is short enough that it becomes possible.

It has nothing at all to do with his better horizontal aerial mobility because you don't even have control of that until after hitstun wears off. If you're out of hitstun long enough for that to even make a difference you'd also have plenty of time to simply jump out of the CG anyway.

 

[SynikaL]

Thank you, Magus.

Magus made this game, he knows what he's talking about, lol.

-Kimo
(I called him "Kage". I'm dumb.)

 

[SynikaL]

*delete*

-Kimo
(wrong thread)

 

[Dorsey]

I gotcha, that makes sense. Honestly when I said "horizontal aerial mobility" I didn't know that it already referred to something specific lol... I was just saying that when Falcon DI's out he goes too far to be regrabbed while Fox and Falco do not.

 

[-ACE-]

As soon as I finished my last post on Marth I looked it over and said "I totally forgot to mention dtilt".

Kage covered it pretty well though lol

 

[CluelessBTD]

Clue that edge guard is hilarious. That Marth had no faith in you being consistent with uairs. I bet he switched it up after that day.

Yeah, haha I haven't been able to do that to him since. He's gotten better. In fact, he just made $100 making 2nd place to Lee Harris at a tournament on Saturday. If only I was there...I'd be at least a hundred bucks richer, haha.

Anybody wanna talk about the Peach matchup? I've been playing a good peach lately and I know a bit about that.

 

[CluelessBTD]

Oh, also here are some applications of the waveland ftilt:

All the slipping and sliding appeared to scare Sethlon from approaching
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCvuptRGL88#t=4m

And on Marth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGpaJsGlGJM#t=3m21s

 

[spider_sense]

Next time chaingrab his *** alright Clue, I might have to show up to Texas and take a hundred from you dudes.