Ganon vs.

[-ACE-]

Spider knows the deal. Hardest part is turnaround dashing to jc grab nearly frame perfect when he DI's behind at very low %, but is very easy to practice (lvl 1 Roy).

Edit: Gawd I'm so bored today lurking on the Ganon boards... lol

 

[CluelessBTD]

Next time chaingrab his *** alright Clue, I might have to show up to Texas and take a hundred from you dudes.

He was using the platforms to escape. I did accidentally fthrow once :/. Usually sethlon makes it pretty hard to grab him since he's always spacing with dtilts. I just need to play him more...to bad he moved to Dallas

 

[spider_sense]

Well I second Roy and I can tell you what I find annoying as blue hell. You can crouch cancel the d-tilts, or short hop fair Roy. Linguini manages to that to me all the time. Remember that Roy has ****TY recovery, and he can be taken out with just a few well placed hits. So just get him off the edge and grab the ledge and walk away with his stock. Whenever you dair him at low percents make sure you grab him for a free chaingrab.

 

[CluelessBTD]

Well I second Roy and I can tell you what I find annoying as blue hell. You can crouch cancel the d-tilts, or short hop fair Roy. Linguini manages to that to me all the time. Remember that Roy has ****TY recovery, and he can be taken out with just a few well placed hits. So just get him off the edge and grab the ledge and walk away with his stock. Whenever you dair him at low percents make sure you grab him for a free chaingrab.

Crouch canceling Roy's dtilt doesn't do you much good if you play against Sethlon. If he sees you do it he has an answer for almost anything (pivot sideB combos coupled with excellent spacing)...except for recovery since, like you said, is terrible. Sethlon's spacing makes it very hard to hit him with a Fair. To be honest, Sethlon is just a better player than me right now. Have you watched many of his matches?

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

So I'm taking the Marth discussion is over for now.

An other one of those pretty even matches. Though it is heavily based on match up experience. The player most experienced in the match up will take this most of the time but both characters have what it takes to take each other out. Something that makes this a new type of match up of Ganon is the use of turnips he gains and the fact that he runs a bit faster than Peach. For the first time Ganon's basic movement is faster but Peach's float canceled aerials is more than enough to make that just a little benefit.

Now with the introduction out the way feel free to discuss things such as stage counter picks, edge guarding strategies, combat strategies, what NOT to do, viable tricks and gimmick.

Those are the basic categories the indepth portion of the thread will consist of.

Ganon
+Power
+Range
+Weight
+Edge guarding
+/Mobility
+/Evasive tactics
-/Air mobility
-Speed
-Lag
-Recovery

Peach
+Projectile
+Recovery
+Air mobility
+Speed
+Lag (float cancel)
+Edge guarding
+/Power
+/Disjointed hitbox
-/Mobility
-/Evasive tactics
-Range
-Weight

Ganon
*Ganon can catch Peach's turnips and use them to his advantage.
*SHFF reverse uair + ftilt works well on peach due to her good traction.
*Dair beside a recovering peach can spike her without much risk of the umbrella interrupting you.
*When you catch a sword you can still do your aerials with it in hand.

Peach
*Peach can do aerial attacks with turnips in hand.
*Downsmash edge guard disables Ganons ability to edge tech and survive.
*Float canceled dsmash combos work good on Ganon.
*Usmash has priority and makes Peach's head and arms invincible causing some hurt to Ganon's air game.
*Ganons edge tech can get him sucked into multi hits if Peach downsmash.

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Coming soon.

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Might aswell throw Peach out there since we have Vanz interested in the thread and with his own match up thread in the Peach forums it will be nice to get his insight.

Vanz I wanna get some games in sometime so we can get a leveled perspective of the match.

 

[-ACE-]

Against Peach. The numbers are before the throw damage and are with the throw doing the full 7%. If it's stale and does 6% add 1 to the ranges, etc. This assumes perfect timing on both players actions.

D-Throw Advantage vs Peach (18 Lag; +2 Adv Differential):
0-8 .... +14
9-19 ... +15
20-30 .. +16
31-41 .. +17
42-52 .. +18
53-63 .. +19
64-74 .. +20
75-85 .. +21
86-96 .. +22
97-107 . +23
...



F-Air: No Turn
31-41 . Trade with N-Air
42-52 . Beats N-Air (0 Frames of Error)
53-63 . Beats N-Air (1 Frame of Error)
64+ ... True Combo

F-Air: Lagless Turnaround to Dash
53-63 . Trade with N-Air
64-74 . Beats N-Air (0 Frames of Error)
75-85 . Beats N-Air (1 Frame of Error)
86+ ... True Combo

B-Air: Behind DI
N/A ... Trade with N-Air
0-8 ... Beats N-Air (0 Frames of Error)
9-19 .. Beats N-Air (1 Frame of Error)
20+ ... True Combo

U-Air: No Turn at 0%
True Combo ..... 2 Frame Window for Error
Beats N-Air .... 4 Frame Window for Error
Trade w/ N-Air . 5 Frame Window for Error

U-Air: Lagless Turnaround to Dash at 0%
True Combo ..... 0 Frame Window for Error
Beats N-Air .... 2 Frame Window for Error
Trade w/ N-Air . 3 Frame Window for Error

On the 0% u-airs you might need to jump backwards into the u-air on no DI/slight behind DI.

You also have to consider reaction time, as well as the number of frames into their knockback that would allow their DI to be correctly identified for the situation. With Peach, there's 18 frames of knockback that occur before Ganon can act. To be able to act on the very 1st frame you can off the throw where DI sets up for separate actions to be done on frame 1 (such as DI behind needing you to dash behind into something instead), and if the DI were able to be identified starting from the 6th frame of KB, you'd need a choice-based reaction time of 12 frames or less in this situation, which is extremely fast (not to be confused with raw reaction time where 12 frames is simply 'above average').



You can figure out the d-throw advantage on any character with this...

D-Throw Advantage vs Mario (20 Lag; +0 Adv Differential):
0-8 .... +12
9-19 ... +13
20-30 .. +14
31-41 .. +15
42-52 .. +16
53-63 .. +17
64-74 .. +18
75-85 .. +19
86-96 .. +20
97-107 . +21
...

To find out the advantage ranges with the d-throw on any character you want, use the above list for Mario (20 lag; +0 Adv Differential), and add/subtract from the advantage using the list below.

D-Throw Lag (NTSC):
1.17 - Bowser ....................... 23 (-3)
1.14 - Donkey Kong .................. 23 (-3)
1.10 - Samus ........................ 23 (-3)
1.09 - Ganondorf .................... 22 (-2)
1.08 - Yoshi ........................ 22 (-2)
1.04 - Captain Falcon / Link ........ 21 (-1)
1.00 - Dr Mario / Luigi / Mario ..... 20 (+0)
0.94 - Ness ......................... 19 (+1)
0.90 - Peach / Sheik / Zelda ........ 18 (+2)
0.88 - Ice Climbers ................. 18 (+2)
0.87 - Marth ........................ 17 (+3)
0.85 - Mewtwo / Roy / Young Link .... 18 (+2)
0.80 - Falco / Pikachu .............. 16 (+4)
0.75 - Fox .......................... 15 (+5)
0.70 - Kirby ........................ 15 (+5)
0.60 - Jigglypuff / Mr Game & Watch . 12 (+8)
0.55 - Pichu ........................ 12 (+8)

This epic post by Magus should help with a few things.

Dthrow to fair, bair, and usmash are crucial vs Peach and all of them combo (usmash depends on DI). I've had too many beers to remember specifics but I think dthrow to usmash works from about 56 to 62 before the grab (FD).

One tactic Tipman told me about was catching a turnip mid air and throwing it away from your opponent which sets you up for a quick bair. I've only landed this once but it was sick.

When peach is recovering with her umbrella up, it can be really hard to Dair her. If you can space/time the dair so you are right be side her when the hitbox starts, you are usually in good shape (it's the umbrella itself that has the massive priority that will override any aerial that isn't timed perfectly).

I'll ramble more tomorrow.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Edge guarding Peach's umbrella from under the stage is easy. Reverse uair is all you need. When Peach peaks on her upB the hit box of her umbrella is gone for a little bit. That's your window to uair her. Two and grab the edge. That's how it goes. After that Peach will start coming from above the stage so enjoy it while you can.

 

[SynikaL]

What do ya'll think of a Ganon/Falcon team.


-Kimo

 

[Renth]

What do ya'll think of a Ganon/Falcon team.


-Kimo

I'd say it sounds like a good team name is we get edge guarded like no other! especially by foxs!

but in all seriousness Chaddd and Ga_Wes ran that team a lot and it worked out well

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

I did that team three days ago and got dead last. It is ok but next time I'm playing Marth instead. That team lacks priority. It was most noticeable when we faced double Peach.

 

[Renth]

I did that team three days ago and got dead last. It is ok but next time I'm playing Marth instead. That team lacks priority. It was most noticeable when we faced double Peach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zkjgq4p8iOM&feature=related

idk these are friendlies but I enjoyed the team.

Wow match 2 on yoshis I was playing well XD

 

[RestInPeace]

Your Dair -> Drop through Uair was amazing. It was at 4:25.

 

[spider_sense]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zkjgq4p8iOM&feature=related

idk these are friendlies but I enjoyed the team.

Wow match 2 on yoshis I was playing well XD

When can we expect new Renth vids?

 

[KIngGerudo]

joe needs help fighting campy peaches
people camp me D;
loooooooool i can uair regrab the ledge. any uses?
discuss

 

[-ACE-]

Lol no kidding Renth you cracked some skulls on yoshi's. Mooney was probably sick of that fair haha

 

[Renth]

When can we expect new Renth vids?

whenever The Cape comes to visit me probably. Idk though.. I have like no one to play with in PA

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

joe needs help fighting campy peaches
people camp me D;
loooooooool i can uair regrab the ledge. any uses?
discuss

With turnips you can uair them as their coming towards you or jump grab and drop em asap. Campy Peaches I like playing, sometimes though I'm just so eager to go and fight it get the worst end of it. Bair, uair, tilts and wavelands help keep the pressure and close the space. When she throws a turnip keep an eye on her approach. That's when she is most likely to try and close the gap.

 

[Renth]

one thing I never see anyone do while being edgeguarded by turnips

@ 59 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Xu22qUtcEw Learn it

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Yeah Renth people don't mess with that much. That and catching turnips during ledge stalls and when you're in your tumbling animation or facing away. Also uairing turnips off stage then up B into them can save you if Peach is going for an over kill. Enjoy it while you can cause after a while she will just let you die.

Renth all you vids I seen a pretty old. Whens the last time you played? Better yet, what are your earliest vids?

 

[Renth]

Yeah Renth people don't mess with that much. That and catching turnips during ledge stalls and when you're in your tumbling animation or facing away. Also uairing turnips off stage then up B into them can save you if Peach is going for an over kill. Enjoy it while you can cause after a while she will just let you die.

Renth all you vids I seen a pretty old. Whens the last time you played? Better yet, what are your earliest vids?

earliest vids haha. well. I started getting into melee in 05 competitively

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8G-m9M69Bk - there's one from 06.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC5O-2Hp2Jc&feature=fvw April 8th 06. The Cape beat my *** reguarly to learn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PvCe6zc0xY December 06

Those are pretty early.. haha, I haven't played much since i left FL close to a year ago now I still practice my techs and everything just a tad rusty.

Im very glad the 2nd vid of me getting ***** is on youtube, it shows the difference between good and bad and the line that can be crossed.

 

[-ACE-]

I hope I get a chance to play The Cape again some day lol

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Danm, Renth those vids are ancient. Shake some of that rust off so when we play our matches they come out golden. You know I'm all about showmanship. I think it's pretty funny that your tag is usually RIP and I rock DIE! if I'm not using FVCK. November I'm going to be focusing on Melee more. See if you can find a way to get around NY at that time.

 

[Renth]

Danm, Renth those vids are ancient. Shake some of that rust off so when we play our matches they come out golden. You know I'm all about showmanship. I think it's pretty funny that your tag is usually RIP and I rock DIE! if I'm not using FVCK. November I'm going to be focusing on Melee more. See if you can find a way to get around NY at that time.

R.I.P. = Renth. In. Person. Those vids are ancient remeber you asked me for my OLDEST vids lawl.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Lol, I didn't mean your older by earliest (I definitely used the wrong word in retrospect). I meant your newer most recent vids. I was wondering why you were posting those links. Let me see '09 beat downs. :uzi:

10. vs Ganondorf - 55:45
VaNz Percentage - 50:50
People who play the match up the best: Kage, Tipman

Pros
- Ganon is amongst the easiest characters to combo
- Helpless recovery

Cons
- Dair > Dair > Possible tech chase Dair > Uair. Painful combo
- Up+B out of shield is really annoying
- His spaced aerials are incredibly annoying
- Ganon is deceptively fast on platforms

Ganon is one of those match ups that are really tedious. You have to be sure that your spacing is ON. Turnip > Fair is my favorite approach. it can lead to some nice tech chases and if shielded, you can follow up with grab. You HAVE to be precise with that approach otherwise you'll just fall victim to numerous retreating fairs.

Another thing, while ganon is dashing all over platforms, just throw stuff at him. He can fall off/ through the platforms at any given time and his Bairs hurt. Dtilts are amazing if can land one. they lead to massive combos. Just remember that it's one of those high risk moves that are punished badly if missed.

Stages we like: Final Destination, Mute City, Brinstar
Stages they like: Battlefield, Yoshi's Story, Fountain of Dreams

This is his outlook on the match according to his thread. How do you guys feel about this analysis? Personally I like Mute City and have no idea why FoD isn't a Peach favorite as well.

-DIE! = Stop livin'

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Mooney was probably sick of that fair haha

No kidding, lol.

<3 Ganon though

 

[Ulti]

Ack, hit backspace and lost everything I wrote up. Anyway, here's a shorter version.

Mute City: I ban this against SDM (MN's best Peach), because the lack of a grabbable ledge = dead ganon or living Ganon with a lot of damage taken during edge-guarding. The weakest of hits can send ganon off-stage out of double-jump reach and then Peach can abuse Ganon's up-b all stock. Ganon really doesn't have a way to make up for this.

FoD: I could see this being a good Ganon stage because the top platform allows for great platform camping. Peach really can't do much to a platform camping since if she pulls a turnip while below you (and you can avoid them by jumping/shielding), you know she is probably going to throw a turnip next, and jumping up to dislodge you means she is commiting to attacking you and then you can either stomp her through the platform or run away and kick her or something and then jump back to your perch. The floating platforms are problematic but that can be fixed by just spending as little time as possible using them.

Finally, how do I fight peach on stages like FD without platforms? She controls space too well with turnips and she has high priority. I feel like I either have to catch turnips (I have reaction speed) or keep close to her the entire match so we can fight at melee range and I can usually do okay then. Any other tips?

EDIT: Also, if my FoD paragraph didn't make it clear, I think platform camping in general is a viable strategy against Peach, at least in short spurts and I have had some success employing it. Just throwing that out there.

 

[DGoscar]

I feel like FoD is a more of a Peach favorite. The differing levels of platforms doesn't really hamper her game since she never really spends much time on them anyway. But for me they totally mess up my wavelandings and arials. =( Maybe I just need more practice on FoD.

 

[DippnDots]

yeah mute city isn't that bad for ganon, easy edgeguarding, you can use the road to prolong your recovery / refresh jumps or even combo your opponent, good platforms when the stage isn't 'moving'. peach just lives there a bit longer than usual but a ceiling KO isn't worse than say dreamland right, and like i said easy edgeguarding.

 

[-ACE-]

I will ALWAYS ban Mute City vs Peach.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Wow, I'm surprised people feel like that about MC. I love that stage. I pick it against Peach. She dies easy there and her recovery is **** on that stage. Ganon and Peach boh die pretty easy there. Guess I just like the quickness of that match there.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

I like Brinstar and MC vs peach. You're not the only one, TT.

The only thing I dislike is the platform when off ground.

And Renth made me enjoy Brinstar as a "omgwtf" counterpick. Worked wonders in Europe ;D The platforms there are cool for wavelanding tricks.

Generally, I ban FoD or FD vs peach lol

 

[Renth]

I like Brinstar and MC vs peach. You're not the only one, TT.

The only thing I dislike is the platform when off ground.

And Renth made me enjoy Brinstar as a "omgwtf" counterpick. Worked wonders in Europe ;D The platforms there are cool for wavelanding tricks.

Generally, I ban FoD or FD vs peach lol

I always ban FD period, because I can't do wavelandy fun tricks

 

[spider_sense]

I always ban FD period, because I can't do wavelandy fun tricks

^^ This man loves him so wavelands, but why not waveland to moonwalk? It looks mad cool.

 

[Renth]

@ Tipman.

I stopped making vids when I came back to PA so Fury of Ganon 3 is literally my most recent video

.

^^ This man loves him so wavelands, but why not waveland to moonwalk? It looks mad cool.

No reason, I just don't like it.

 

[CluelessBTD]

Worked wonders in Europe ;D The platforms there are cool for wavelanding tricks.

I agree. Last time I went to Europe, I was wavelanding all the way to my hotel.

Seriously though, how could Mute City honestly be a good counterpick choice AGAINST Peach? You said her recovery is bad there Tipman, but she can just float around till the stage changes and be pretty safe.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

I dislike FD because of no platforms, not even because of wavelanding.

I just like platforms with ganon.

I agree. Last time I went to Europe, I was wavelanding all the way to my hotel.

Seriously though, how could Mute City honestly be a good counterpick choice AGAINST Peach? You said her recovery is bad there Tipman, but she can just float around till the stage changes and be pretty safe.

It really just depends on how you play, mann. It would be different for somebody like renth because of how fast his playstyle was(note:was, because I know mark will say something).BUT, if you're like kage though, you'd get *****.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Alright so I kinda neglected this thread hoping to play Vanz again a few times so I could toss a nice post up but it doesn't look like that is gonna happen soon. Eager to move on so let's try and get down the do's and donts.

Do not CC dsmash. That's a gimmie.
Do not jump through platforms into a dsmash.
Do not DI up into dair.

Do uair and catch n drop turnips.
Do angle up ftilt head leveled float approaches.
Do stay grounded if Peach is grounded.

Eh, those are the few I got for now. Maybe later on today or tomorrow I'll get the whole PEach section up so we can move to Fox/Falco or maybe C.Falcon so Swizzy can start ripping in the UK.

:uzi: I been pranked. hainsaw:

 

[-ACE-]

U-air combos at 0%. If they DI behind then dash turn and u-air behind you. That still combos at 0%. If you space yourself you can usually hit them again depending on their DI. If they were trying to n-air out of the throw you get to hit them again.

You can also d-throw u-smash to KO around 60-65ish on medium and lower ceiling stages if they don't DI (turn around and do it) or DI away (u-smash in place). Stops working around 70 or so. A little after then you can start d-throw f-airing. You can hit her with the f-air no matter how they DI.

I figured this would be important to note. So out of dthrow at 0% best options are angled up ftilt, jab, or uair. So much of this matchup is just spacing though lol

Stage wise, I like DL64 and don't mind BF or FD. I like having room to space my attacks.
I will most likely always ban Mute City, or maybe FoD.

 

[CluelessBTD]

If you are recovering onto the stage vs peach and she is using ledgehog>getup>Dsmash to throw you back out, just CC the first hit and the second one will put you back on the stage.

You should almost ALWAYS be able to catch Peach's turnips, and it makes Ganon's gameplay so much more fun when you have a turnip in hand. One of my favorite kill moves against Peach lately has been the upsmash. It seems to mess up their float spacing during recovery and approach.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKlFHhcpKnI#t=3m07s

Dthrow to upsmash when you can (I haven't actually started doing this yet, there's nobody to play around here :/). You can also Dthrow to Bair or Fair if they DI forward at higher percentages.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKlFHhcpKnI#t=2m32s Dthrow>Fair

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

An other nice thing to do vs Peach is if she is recovering from very high grab the edge and ledge jump (not ledge hop) then double jump. You get a lot more vert that way and you can get punish opportunities or just keep her in check.