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Ganon vs.

PaperstSoapCo

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 16, 2007
Messages
1,237
Location
537 Paper Street - Bradford - 19808
Lol, I was joking ACE but nice summary. I might just put up a quick Pichu part. We won't need to discuss it unless people actually wanna talk about that match. I'll look through what is left and start picking popular characters in tournies to talk about.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
Location
The back country, GA
I'd like to see what Linguini says about that matchup nowadays also.

I like to keep my back to Puff for spaced bairs and reverse uairs. Fair has to be spaced so well, I basically never try to fair Jiggs, just spam fair at a "safe" distance lol. Dthrow to usmash is great around 60-65%, and dthrow to uair is pretty reliable. If I don't think I can KO a sleeping Puff in one hit (low %), I usually go for 2 dairs. Shieldgrab any pound approaches and counterpick FD (got this from Linguini and it helped me). That's all I got.
 

da K.I.D.

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 22, 2006
Messages
19,658
Location
Rochester, NY
when do up tilt and warlock punch kill jiggly? im pretty sure up tilt is a guaranteed kill on puff over 20 on any stage.

and yea, running away and bairing is a really good option especially if you can double jump before the first SH bair lands. (a skill I no longer havethe ability to perform lol) that trick gets a lot of people. if you expect a SH fair or bair you can FH a dair over it, which can set up for a fair tech chase which can kill her if you pull it off starting at like 40%.

that one of the biggest parts of this match, is that ganon can literally kill her in five hits. it only takes about 2 good reads to take a stock from her.

on most stages i think down throw to fair is a kill combo starting at the 75-80% range. its been a while since ive been indepth enough to know exact %s for this type of stuff so take it with a grain of salt.

with a good wall of bairs f tilts and your shield, it can be very hard for jiggly puff to get inside with out getting hurt.

however, as one of the big slow characters in the game, even with the lcanceling he can be laggy enough for some pretty free rests from J puff. but, given his weight, he can survive and punish from higher %s then most people.

puffs edgeguarding on ganon is pretty free too
 

da K.I.D.

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 22, 2006
Messages
19,658
Location
Rochester, NY
I actually think normal f tilts are better because of puffs SH height, it doesnt get above the normal f tilt height and that way you can use the max range possible to beat or trade with her aerials.

note, trading hits with puff is always a win for ganon
 

G. Vice

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Messages
1,156
Location
Arkansas
Tipman, I never really realized how useful the up angled ftilt was until I watched you vs Vanz's Jiggs. That cut some of her approaches like crazy. You said your from NY right? If you hear about a guy going by the name "Tag" up there, I hear he's pretty good. Try and find him and show him what ganon's about.
 

Ulti

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 18, 2006
Messages
355
My take on the matchup since this is one that I actually have a lot of experience with and some level of success.

Most of the match will be spent by Ganon running away and leaving large painful hitboxes behind him in the form of bair and uair. Fair will rarely work in my experience, although it can trade sometime (moreso if puff isn't abusing bair for some reason). If Ganon can keep up his brick wall of bairs/uairs he can control the pace of the match pretty well. It's important to watch what Jiggs between your jump and DJ because sometimes she'll try to to pop you with a uair --> rest. If you call this, you can sometimes get her with a cross up stomp and then tech-chase. If she's still advancing and a stomp will be too slow or something, you should know when to waveland since that can provide a lot of space and perhaps give you the opportunity to hit her with an ftilt. The ability to platform dash out of a double-jump is also great since it gives you a way to either retreat momre quickly from jigg's great air speed or even move over/around her if cornered.

Going along with Ganon trying to brickwall jiggs, is the idea that Ganon needs to attack Jiggs at weird angles since going head-to-head against her feet often results in you just getting hit. Uair is great for this since it can hit at nearly any angle, and bair works well too since its got a lot of range. Another way to force jiggs to play a non-linear game is to utilize platforms (I do love my platform camping) and either force her to approach you from below (where her uair gets stuffed by stomp or she has to air-dodge to get around you) or she can try to get to your level indirectly (ie, go to the side of the stage and then start trying to approach horizontally again). If she does that, just drop down and now you're below her which is also a great position to be in. So platform camping probably isn't something you want to base your anti-puff strat around, but it can force puff into awkward situations and if nothing else, eat at a player's momentum. Also, being able to drop through platforms oos is a nice skill to have hear (and in general) since if she's ever pressuring you, you can just drop down and do a uair.

Grabs: Ganon's got a decent grab game against puff. Grabbing puff can be difficult if her spacing is spot on, but it's possible. Sadly, I'm not aware of any guarenteed ways to land a grab (except for stuff like shielded fsmash or something), but they do happen. I'm pretty sure low percents still should yield a guarenteed uair (bair if they di behind for some reason?) As said earlier, higher percents lead to usmash and fair (I've gotten it to work as low as high 50s/low 60s for fair). D-throw upair also kos at a semi-reasonable percent at most stages (90-low 100s. She should be dead far before this, but it's another option).

How to punish rest: Utilt has better base-knockback than Warlock Punch and fewer people know how to tech it. If utilt won't kill anyway I go for a double-stomp tech-chase grab --> attack, which if it doesn't kill her, will put her in ko percents. Avoiding rests is mostly a matter of watching the jiggs player's patterns (when does she stop jumping around and start doing uptilts/upairs?) and reacting from there. I think pound --> rest might work at some percents too, but that can be stopped by shielding --> punish or even an fsmash (thanks to the lean-back during the start-up). Another thing to consider is that when you ARE rested is how you should DI. If you're at low percents (very near 0%) survival DI (DI up I think? I only remember how to di during a match, haha) is probably you're best choice, since Ganon can recovery pretty well unmolested. If you're at higher percents, you might want to di towards the side blastzones since that way you can avoid the star-ko animation and still have a chance to beat the snot out of jiggs upon respawn.

Stages: Ganon naturally likes stages with close blast-lines where his raw strength can lead to early kos, however at the same time I think that Ganon needs space to run around and create weird attack situations for puff more than anything, so YS isn't my first choice for Ganon's cps vs puff. I'd actually pick PS first, since you can still get some star kos, and ganon has enough space to run around/away. BF is good too (as is YS, of course). I haven't tried FoD vs Jiggs, but I imagine due to the platform layout and high ceiling this would be a stage to avoid when possible. Corneria and Green Greens are also possible choices, but then you always run the risk of them pulling out fox. Ganon does well enough on neutrals anyway, imo.

As far as bans, most jiggs like MC, and some like Brinstar (seems like it would be okay for ganon, but I have never played there vs puff). If you want to ban a stage, MC is probably a safe bet, although it is still a winnable match there.

Again, just my experience with the matchup. Hope this is helpful/accurate.
 

PaperstSoapCo

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 16, 2007
Messages
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I wanted to post but I may be going to a tourney this Saturday. If I do I'll post afterwards and see if I can get Vanz to post here with his ideas on the match up. I keep forgetting to get people from other boards to post here but most of them just ignore my PM's anyways (you know who you are). Monday I'll come through with the finished product and Ulti that post was epic. I have a slightly different take on the match but those options are just as viable.

G.Vice if I play him and win I'll say G.Vice told me to do it.
 

G. Vice

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Messages
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Arkansas
I wanted to post but I may be going to a tourney this Saturday. If I do I'll post afterwards and see if I can get Vanz to post here with his ideas on the match up. I keep forgetting to get people from other boards to post here but most of them just ignore my PM's anyways (you know who you are). Monday I'll come through with the finished product and Ulti that post was epic. I have a slightly different take on the match but those options are just as viable.

G.Vice if I play him and win I'll say G.Vice told me to do it.
Sweet. I love to see ganon **** anyone and everyone lol.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
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The back country, GA
Imo FoD isn't very good for Ganon or Falcon, but it can be advantageous to Ganon in that matchup compared to most of the other neutrals. FoD gives Falcon little room to run around and space his approaches. With most of the battles being in close quarters, it's easier for Ganon to get Falcon offstage for an easy edgeguard. It also gives Falcon less room for walljump trickiness (I've played Scar in tournament on YS). You just have to try to avoid the knee since it kills so early on that stage. I also think the uneven platforms hinder Falcon's game a bit more than Ganon's just because Ganon's strat to get Falcon offstage often only requires one hit whereas Falcon might have to get a little more creative to get Ganon offstage. I never ban this stage vs Falcon, and I ban FoD somewhat often lol.

As far as Marth's fsmash, unless you're at very low%, if he's spacing it really well you might just have to block. If it's not spaced that well you can up-b OoS, or at very low% cc to dtilt. I don't think you have enough time to wd OoS and grab him. If he's getting fsmash happy just bait that **** and punch his ***.

RIP use reverse uair, dair, or wizard's foot spike. Dair is great since meteor canceling isn't really an option for DK because of his ****ty vertical recovery.
 

G. Vice

Smash Lord
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Imo FoD isn't very good for Ganon or Falcon, but it can be advantageous to Ganon in that matchup compared to most of the other neutrals. FoD gives Falcon little room to run around and space his approaches. With most of the battles being in close quarters, it's easier for Ganon to get Falcon offstage for an easy edgeguard. It also gives Falcon less room for walljump trickiness (I've played Scar in tournament on YS). You just have to try to avoid the knee since it kills so early on that stage. I also think the uneven platforms hinder Falcon's game a bit more than Ganon's just because Ganon's strat to get Falcon offstage often only requires one hit whereas Falcon might have to get a little more creative to get Ganon offstage. I never ban this stage vs Falcon, and I ban FoD somewhat often lol.

As far as Marth's fsmash, unless you're at very low%, if he's spacing it really well you might just have to block. If it's not spaced that well you can up-b OoS, or at very low% cc to dtilt. I don't think you have enough time to wd OoS and grab him. If he's getting fsmash happy just bait that **** and punch his ***.

RIP use reverse uair, dair, or wizard's foot spike. Dair is great since meteor canceling isn't really an option for DK because of his ****ty vertical recovery.
Finally! Another Ganon main who thinks FoD sucks. I get screwed up by the platforms way too much, personally.
 

SwizzyUK

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
253
I played in a tournament in Holland recently which used stage striking. I banned FoD at the first opportunity I got every match.

Having now read -Ace-'s post, I'm looking forward to trying it against falcons. I'm interested in some more opinions on it though
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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I'm not saying counterpick FoD. I believe in the Falcon matchup you should go wherever you feel most comfortable. As you know you can't really afford to let your guard down for a second against a good Falcon. Personally I might even take Falcon to DL64 just because I love that stage, even though it's infamously good for Falcon. It really depends on your style.
 

Bizzarro Flame

Smash Lord
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San Francisco
Yes, FD is a pretty bad stage in ganon vs falcon. Too much mobility for falcon while there is too less for Ganon because of the lack of platforms.

My personal favorite against Falcon is Mute City. You can't go wrong there against Falcon. It's the stage where Ganon is better when faced against Falcon only. There is really no space for Falcon to run on the main platform, with the exception of the large, sloped race track, which messes up falcon's SHFFLs.
 

Renth

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 8, 2005
Messages
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Colver, PA
I played in a tournament in Holland recently which used stage striking. I banned FoD at the first opportunity I got every match.

Having now read -Ace-'s post, I'm looking forward to trying it against falcons. I'm interested in some more opinions on it though
I love:

Yoshis
FoD
Dreamland
Pokemon Stadium
Brinstar
Mute City

- for any match up, all other stages.. I hate them.


---- I hate FD in general.
 

Dorsey

Banned via Warnings
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Feb 22, 2009
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Falcon can jump off the visible stage boundaries practically and get back on FoD. It's fairly easy for CF to **** ganon with some consecutive uairs and weak knees leading off the edge.. similar to yoshi's. So unless you can use the stage on FoD like you can on yoshis I wouldn't consider CPing falcon on it. I would assume that most ganons are better at YS than FoD... personally FoD is my favorite map with almost all chars.
 

Renth

Smash Hero
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Falcon can jump off the visible stage boundaries practically and get back on FoD. It's fairly easy for CF to **** ganon with some consecutive uairs and weak knees leading off the edge.. similar to yoshi's. So unless you can use the stage on FoD like you can on yoshis I wouldn't consider CPing falcon on it. I would assume that most ganons are better at YS than FoD... personally FoD is my favorite map with almost all chars.
FoD is also Falcons worst stage
 

G. Vice

Smash Lord
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Arkansas
Yeah, I hate FoD as ganon, but I think it's a good deal worse for CF. Not to say that I'd ever CP a CF there though. And yeah Dorsey, Sheik doesn't have to worry about silly things like CPing, that's a lower tier thing =p
 

RestInPeace

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 24, 2008
Messages
612
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Toronto, ON
Falcon can jump off the visible stage boundaries practically and get back on FoD. It's fairly easy for CF to **** ganon with some consecutive uairs and weak knees leading off the edge.. similar to yoshi's. So unless you can use the stage on FoD like you can on yoshis I wouldn't consider CPing falcon on it. I would assume that most ganons are better at YS than FoD... personally FoD is my favorite map with almost all chars.
You can just DI away and they can't get those consecutive Uairs/Soft Knees. They won't get more than there for sure, even if you're low (I've never seen it before).
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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yeah man I know you can just DI away... You can just DI out of jigglypuff's uthrow rest as a spacie, but it happens at the highest level of play......go figure.

forgot..-dorsey
 

Renth

Smash Hero
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yeah man I know you can just DI away... You can just DI out of jigglypuff's uthrow rest as a spacie, but it happens at the highest level of play......go figure.

forgot..-dorsey
You *CAN* DI out of uthrow rest as a spacie. However a good jigglypuff player will follow that DI with a rising pound, float in the opposite direction and get the rest at a higher percent anyway.
 

_kSo_

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 4, 2006
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Los Angeles, CA
Falcon can jump off the visible stage boundaries practically and get back on FoD. It's fairly easy for CF to **** ganon with some consecutive uairs and weak knees leading off the edge.. similar to yoshi's. So unless you can use the stage on FoD like you can on yoshis I wouldn't consider CPing falcon on it. I would assume that most ganons are better at YS than FoD... personally FoD is my favorite map with almost all chars.
playing CF on FoD is like trying to run a marathon with your pants down.

I don't particularly mind playing on this stage as ganon, but if I am versing a ganon on this stage as CF, I don't like it at all. I usually auto-ban FoD anyway 0__o
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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how do you guys deal with falcon's nair? Its really messing me up
Up angled ftilt, spaced bair, FULLY spaced fair, or a fulljump dair if you see it coming in advance. You can also mix in some retreating perfect wavelands to set up for shieldgrabs. Technically you can also jab Falcon out of his nair as soon as the first hit ends, given he spaced it so that both hits would have hit you. you just have to ASDI down (cc jab or hold c-down and jab; it's very situational).
 

Life After Death

Smash Champion
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May 27, 2008
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Bronx, NY
falco is like ganons most even match up top tier wise. then comes marth.

fox is his hardest definitely then comes sheik other than that ganon can win tourney easily it just depends on the player SON. in general ganon has a hard asss learning curve vs certain match ups like sheik fox falco and falcon.
 

da K.I.D.

Smash Hero
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Aug 22, 2006
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Rochester, NY
im pretty sure that if you time it right ganon can jab falcon out of all his aerials. its high risk little reward but if people dont know you can do it, it cna mess up their flow pretty hard.

and falco is by far my hardest matchup with ganon....

probably because I still cant PS on command in this game.
 

Life After Death

Smash Champion
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May 27, 2008
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ganon is hard as hell to learn cuz u have to play high risk high reward at all times lol no safe situations. u cant go for little hits u gotta always go for the best reward
 
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