Ganon vs.

[Linguini]

I don't think many people know this but DI'ng behind falco is the best option 90% of the time when your getting dair combo'd. Not just with ganon.

 

[DippnDots]

What do you guys think is a harder match up for ganon, Doc or Mario?

Personally i'd side with mario, since he's got more range on his fsmash and can combo ganon much much better than doc. Really doc's only strong part is bair/cape gimps, i dont have much trouble avoiding pills :\

 

[n0ne]

id say mario and many people way say im nuts cuz theyll think im nuts but starting off with marios u air.... is better for comboing... his d throw is better for combos.... i have some vids on mario threads cuz im a mario main too...-.--- but then again... both are prettty simular... I REPEAT I AM FEELING GREAT RIGHT NOW

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

i have more trouble against scorpion master's mario than his dr. mario...

probably because mario is his main, but still.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

lol scorpion master. That ***** is so good.

 

[-ACE-]

Aight this thread needs a bump. Kage lost to a link. I don't care that it was mango, it saddens me. We don't have to talk about link necessarily, but if anyone has specific questions about matchups, you can ask here, and if nothing else, I will respond. If we can come to some agreement on certain issues I can edit the OP as needed (don't worry, I won't be deleting anything written by the king, Thomas Tipman, unless it is completely necessary). This thread contains a lot of great info as it is, so I encourage you all to take another look.

 

[Nujabes]

What should a ganon player do against a link? A rule of thumb if you will.

 

[Nujabes]

Mango is a beast....

 

[G. Vice]

Aight this thread needs a bump. Kage lost to a link. I don't care that it was mango, it saddens me. We don't have to talk about link necessarily, but if anyone has specific questions about matchups, you can ask here, and if nothing else, I will respond. If we can come to some agreement on certain issues I can edit the OP as needed (don't worry, I won't be deleting anything written by the king, Thomas Tipman, unless it is completely necessary). This thread contains a lot of great info as it is, so I encourage you all to take another look.

Good bump Ace, I agree we need to be more active in discussing Ganon strats.

Kage lost to Link huh? Wow...that does surprise/sadden me as well. I used to play a pretty good Link who was about my skill for a little while, so I know that to a degree, it's not as bad a matchup as many may think. Yes, I think Ganon has the advantage, however Link's projectile game, as well as the easy Up-B edgeguard kill at almost no percent and up tends to catch ganon's who don't perfectly sweet spot work in his favor. Not to mention, Ganon's easy as dirt to combo. So it DOES happen. I found lots of success with the B-air. Obviously, I haven't gone up against a Mango quality Link, but I've found that B-air outta shield is handy. It's quick, direct, and goes through the boomerang, and often times hits Link as he is counting on the boomerang and trying to follow up. Link's recovery can be tricky to defend as he has both an Up-b that tends to eat through attacks, as well as the hookshot. Risky attempts off the ledge as Ganon often lead to mishaps, and low damage deaths due to edgehog are quite common. Mix the edge-guarding up, but keep in mind that well placed Bairs on the ledge, as well as a properly timed Tipman spike own Link on the ledge. Once his hookshot's gone, his recovery is like Kirby.

...k, i'm done jawing. You guys get in on the action.

 

[A2ZOMG]

What do you guys think is a harder match up for ganon, Doc or Mario?

Personally i'd side with mario, since he's got more range on his fsmash and can combo ganon much much better than doc. Really doc's only strong part is bair/cape gimps, i dont have much trouble avoiding pills :\

I think Ganondorf goes close to even vs Doc, very slight advantage Ganon's favor.

Ganon beats Mario solidly though.

Honestly you should very rarely be getting hit by Mario's F-smash outside of being edgeguarded by it. Your F-air and even your tilt spacing ***** it almost all the time, and Mario really can't combo into his F-smash very well against Ganon except for building damage at mid percents. His fireballs don't slow down your approach as well as Doc's pills, and Doc's B-air is infinitely better at both getting Ganon offstage and for gimping him.

Mario has to work really hard to KO Ganon for the most part, and his gimps aren't nearly as guaranteed on Ganon as Doc's are. His F-smash really doesn't see much practical use in this matchup for the most part either.

i have more trouble against scorpion master's mario than his dr. mario...

probably because mario is his main, but still.

Honestly, I think it's perfectly logical that Scorpion's Mario is infinitely better than his Doc.

What makes him so much better than everyone else as a player is just his perfect spacing. Mario's general strategy is by far more spacing oriented than Doc's, so to be frank, Mario fits Scorpion's playstyle much better than Doc does.

Mario does rack damage on Ganon pretty well with his D-throw, U-air, and U-tilt combos, but as long as your DI isn't bad, and you leave the option open to grab the ledge with your midair jump, Mario really has trouble killing you.

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

mario has a **** ton of quick moves with lots of comboability and he can get inside of ganons comfort zone and **** him up hella easy

mario beats ganon!

also i know nothing of either character, so yeah ignore my post

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

a bit off topic can anyone link the mango kage vid? I played a few tough links and played against chus ylink in doubles long ago. using bombs against link and being aggressive in closing the gap helped me vs more experienced links at the time. links uair is his most viable move at any percent. he isn't too fast and his shffls can be ccd at lower percents, bair, nair, and fair is what's in mind. if I remember right link has the same jump time as ganon so both of you going aerial is more based on spacing than worrying about link getting in the air faster than you. ace I have no pc around anymore so if you would edit the first post how you see fit that would be great. this game is soo old now and yet people still like it. shocks me really how long its lasted.

 

[-ACE-]

Nice tip. I'm on my droid for another week so big posts are kind of a pain. But yeah I'll do work. For now I'll say the key against link is patience. Don't underestimate a good link. Bair/fair/ftilt work best against the boomerang. Catching bombs with Z in the air is a breeze. Bair oos like g vice said is good in close; go for the shield poke on link's head. Whenever you have the chance, cg the hell out of that little elf. He's crazy heavy so learn the delay on the regrab. JC grab when he di's behind (test yourself - if you can't cg lvl-1 cpu link you're doing it wrong). Reverse uair spike when he tries to sweespot, bair when you know his up-b will overshoot. More later.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

forgot about the cg. some cg openers you should consider are dair to cg at low percents and using bombs to get link stuck shielding as you approach him.

 

[G. Vice]

Nice tip. I'm on my droid for another week so big posts are kind of a pain. But yeah I'll do work. For now I'll say the key against link is patience. Don't underestimate a good link. Bair/fair/ftilt work best against the boomerang. Catching bombs with Z in the air is a breeze. Bair oos like g vice said is good in close; go for the shield poke on link's head. Whenever you have the chance, cg the hell out of that little elf. He's crazy heavy so learn the delay on the regrab. JC grab when he di's behind (test yourself - if you can't cg lvl-1 cpu link you're doing it wrong). Reverse uair spike when he tries to sweespot, bair when you know his up-b will overshoot. More later.

Ace nailed it. Patience. Patience is the key. Aggressive Ganons get destroyed by a Link playing right. Don't forget the usefulness of Ganon's jab either. I find myself counting on my jab in SO many opportunities, it's truly priceless. The jab can also be a quick move to destroy a boomerang, as the Link may be baiting you into jumping it, or shielding/rolling around it.

Good call from Tommy on the CG. Though I personally don't like CGing, it definitely works on Link to a fairly high percentage, and dthrow always leads to an aerial. Then, it's just a matter of proper edge-guarding.

edit*

I just wanted to share my Ganon combo video in here. Ganon doesn't get a lot of love, especially in combo vid form, so I just wanted to spread the love. View, critique, comment whatever you wanna do.

Tommy, I always appreciate your input, as well as you ACE. I'm currently in nursing school, so I don't get to play smash nearly as much as I'd like. But I'm working on a new combo vid(Devour II) when I do get to play. So hopefully I'll have some improvements made and it'll produce more entertaining, higher quality Ganon footage.

*link*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zt1Hd8PfwVs

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

nursing school is something I wanted to get into. good luck with that. would anyone mind linking the mango link vs kage vid? im on a phone browser and its a pain to get around on this thing.

 

[DippnDots]

Here ya go Tommy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLHbdM0tRG8 WF1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi29XrtA7rg WF2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEaAVoyuInE LS1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F2lcr55eWo LS2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFPI5JNPyDI LS3

order might be a bit off, im a bit drunk o_O

 

[-ACE-]

It's not up yet. Hopefully it will be soon tho

 

[da K.I.D.]

fair/bair beats all of links projectiles. and link oos game is awful with a slow as balls fair and shield grab.

if you space a fair on shield correctly, and bait it properly, you can fair links shield and than short hop warlock punch over his grab.

nair is a B to deal with in close quarters tho.

dont get caught above link, he will up air you and bomb you (and combo that into up air) until the end of time.

if you recover high to avoid the up b, he can pretty much get a free swordplant from any where offstage and still recover.

nair beats our recovery. full jump double nair is kinda annoying. but anything link does out of a full jump you can beat from under neath with an up air.

our up air can beat swordplant, but usually youll trade with it, so weigh your options.

for the most part, its a very even matchup. but then ganon gets a grab, and for all intents and purposes, link should die everytime that happens. link is one of the easiest characters to CG.

why is it that nobody uses links bombs (or peachs turnips) against them? people need to play more brawl so they can learn better item management. lol

 

[-ACE-]

Link is nowhere near the easiest to cg. For the most part, heavier is harder, especially at low%. Try the cg on level 1 bowser at 0%. I rarely mess up the chaingrab on link but it is definitely worth practicing.

 

[Nujabes]

Hey guys, I've been trying to get ledge teching down on ganon and I have NO idea when to press L. Any trick to getting it down or just alotta trail And error?

 

[-ACE-]

Press L or R no more than 1/3 of a second before you wish to tech, so basically right before you get hit. Timing R is not the hard part. Be ready to SDI toward the stage (or rotate the control stick to up for a walltech) while you are being hit.

 

[G. Vice]

Press L or R no more than 1/3 of a second before you wish to tech, so basically right before you get hit. Timing R is not the hard part. Be ready to SDI toward the stage (or rotate the control stick to up for a walltech) while you are being hit.

Depends on your controller. It's something you have to get a feel for in my opinion. Having a useful ledge teching game is SO big for Ganon, seeing as his recovery is horrible.

 

[DippnDots]

there's also a specific timing though, you want to be releasing the shoulder button at the moment of the tech, and you can't just hold the shoulder button in and wait either.

 

[A2ZOMG]

why is it that nobody uses links bombs (or peachs turnips) against them? people need to play more brawl so they can learn better item management. lol

^This. I do this all the time against Peach. It's not even that hard for Ganon to item catch, and from my experience his item catch range is deceptively big. It's easy to either stand on the ground and press the A button, or to Z catch them in the air. And when you get an item, you basically can approach for free.

 

[DippnDots]

i caught a bomb om the other night actually, but the peach power shielded it in my face

 

[-ACE-]

Depends on your controller. It's something you have to get a feel for in my opinion. Having a useful ledge teching game is SO big for Ganon, seeing as his recovery is horrible.

True, you have to get a feel for it. I was trying to keep the answer brief since TL;DR posts can sometimes discourage newer players from wanting to learn.

EDIT: rofl dipn. Good stuff

 

[Nujabes]

Don't worry about discouraging me, I don't mind practicing tough things, what discourages me is getting death turnuped or kneed in the face =(

 

[A2ZOMG]

Edgeteching usually isn't hard, unless you're in a position that requires SDI. IMO The hardest part about understanding edgeteching is knowing the way the tech window works and that you must input the tech before you get hit. Then the next hard part is getting a free hit on your opponent after teching. =P

I personally consider the ledgehop waveland for Ganon and powershielding harder things to do.

 

[G. Vice]

Edgeteching usually isn't hard, unless you're in a position that requires SDI. IMO The hardest part about understanding edgeteching is knowing the way the tech window works and that you must input the tech before you get hit. Then the next hard part is getting a free hit on your opponent after teching. =P

I personally consider the ledgehop waveland for Ganon and powershielding harder things to do.

Wavelanding in general, whether from a ledge or not is all about getting the feel for it. If you practice it enough, you can get to where you can do it for sure. However, the application behind it is the tough part. For example, ledge waveland ~> reverse jab is something that can be done on command, but the knowing of when/where/incorporation harder.

Powershielding, yeah that's not easy. But getting the hang of it proves SO useful. Powershielding a Falco's drill and grabbing him before he can shine is a thing of beauty. Sadly, it's easier said than done.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Nice vid g.vice. lots of smooth wave landing.

with teching holding l or r right as your by the edge is a nice way to get it consistent. only if you expect an attack of course.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Powershielding, yeah that's not easy. But getting the hang of it proves SO useful. Powershielding a Falco's drill and grabbing him before he can shine is a thing of beauty. Sadly, it's easier said than done.

Personally I think powershielding his lasers is equally satisfying and fundamentally more effective. Doing it consistently makes the matchup like 15 points better lol. Falco without lasers is pretty manageable for Ganon.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

if you ps the lasers and get hit by dairs, psing the lasers means almost nothing. If you turn their dairs into your combos, that's how that matchup turns around. I'd gladly take 3 lasers to the face for a grab on falco.

 

[G. Vice]

if you ps the lasers and get hit by dairs, psing the lasers means almost nothing. If you turn their dairs into your combos, that's how that matchup turns around. I'd gladly take 3 lasers to the face for a grab on falco.

This.

My point exactly buddy. But it is nice to PS lasers if at all possible.

 

[DippnDots]

ganon benefits from powershielding falco's lasers, but not as much as say... marth. What it boils down to when playing falco is, you either avoid a laser or shield it, and if you're going to shield it you might as well powershield it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You can legitimately outspace Falco if you consistently powershield his lasers, which gives you the frame advantage necessary to do so. Depending on how he spaces his D-air, it's not exactly clear that powershielding it is always going to get you a grab, especially if he crosses over.

The main problem Ganon has against Falco imo is that Falco simply just gets out attacks and lasers faster, before you're allowed to space. By powershielding lasers, this actually lets you get the jump on Falco.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

as long as the falco doesn't get afraid after you ps 3 lasers, no matter how many you powershield, it isn't enough.

that whole inifinite bullets thing is really a pain. assuming that he keeps shooting after you ps some lasers, he'll always keep the advantage.

now a falco without lasers is significantly easier to deal with. but a good falco is never without lasers.

 

[spider_sense]

You guys need to seriously read up on zoning and baiting. Lasers really shouldn't be a problem to get around. Sometimes it's even essential to take the lasers to give falco the false notion that he's safe to approach you whenever. I've seen way too many vids where Ganon mains have missed jabs/grabs and fairs. Fairs with bairs and Ganon's double jumps (used sparingly) disjoint and shrink Ganon small enough for him to get in, and in some scenarios Ganon can even wavedash oos to close in the gap. Start watching Linguini vs Chops.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_uSaQ28TU8 <--- more vids on the Falco matchup. Seriously guys, study this set.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvezowqH5Ik&feature=related

On another note post your matches in the Ganon vid thread so I can finally put them up. =D

 

[SwizzyUK]

Thanks for posting that falco set, I was looking for something that'd help me in that match up. One question I'd love to hear answered though, why did guini take him to FD then PS?

 

[-ACE-]

Linguini loves FD. That's a typical cp for him. Plenty of room to space attacks, and he's great at countering falco's approaches head on. Being good on FD is a great asset; many opponents like to take ganon there thinking its bad for him when really it's very doable. And you can ban something else (like FoD or one i the stupid cp stages like RC).

And about countering falco's approaches, don't forget about shield DI guys. Any time someone attacks your shield, you can ASDI (and even SDI) the hit to move yourself away for spacing or a safer retreat, or move in for a grab.