AZ, out of curiosity what snakes have you played? In person, not wifi.
Race and InsomniaK. InsomniaK clearly being the better of the two. There is probably some random guy at tournament I played in friendlies whose name I no longer remember, but I've played this matchup offline.
InsomniaK as you know mains G&W and ZSS, but I've played him in various friendlies. He doesn't think Snake is G&W's worst matchup either, since he's actually played people like Hall and DSF and done well against them. He's one of the best players on the WC (actually ranking on the panel).
Not only does it make him hard to approach, but they also FORCE you to approach or take noteworthy shield damage or 13%. Let's not forget the ridiculous hitboxes on those things.
Firstoff, grenades don't do that much damage to your shield. If they did significant shield damage, Snake would be more cautious of his option of grenade shielding.
Taking 13% is irrelevant when they are easy to avoid anyway.
Nextoff, forcing the approach is pretty irrelevant when 95% of the time G&W has to approach in some way in his matchups. Grenades aren't the best thing for forcing G&W to approach. They only
limit his approach. They don't stop him from approaching though.
A2Z, I don't see how you can think that the grenades aren't dangerous...we've made it completely clear. If it has to come down to a money match, I'd gladly do one with you and demonstrate how awful the match is, and why grenades certainly are a huge part, if not the main part, of why that is.
Grenades only slow down the match. Watch Valdens against DSF. He waits out DSF before making approaches and does very well against him.
Yeah, you'll get in a random explosion on the G&W who accidentally makes a spacing mistake onto a grenade shield, but he's otherwise pretty safe from Snake since Snake doesn't follow up that easily. As long as the G&W is patient...he can wait until you're not grenade shielding, or just run up and go for a grab.
Also, just because Lee Puff feels that Marth is worse doesn't mean it's something that applies to everyone. Different styles lead to different matchup ratios, but the aim here isn't to cater to everyone's personal playstyle. We're aiming for a general consensus and standard ratio. Obviously it can fluctuate depending on the player. Plus, who said Lee Puff is the standing authority on G&W's matchups? In my opinion, OBM is the best G&W, followed by Hylian and UTD Zac, so if anything, their opinions should hold the most weight (though I'd imagine OBM is a little biased in this case considering he has LOTS of practice against Snakes).
Hylian said a while ago that LeePuff was easily better than him. Just saying.
+Pros
* Kills much earlier with much easier-to-land kill moves
* Lives much longer
* Doesn't have to approach
* Has better and safer approach options False, Snake should not approach in this matchup 95% of the time due to G&W's F-smash alone.
* Ftilt and utilt outspeed all your ground attacks (4 and 6 frames, respectively) U-tilt at 6 frames is slower than G&W. It has a lot of range, but it's not faster than G&W.
* Ftilt outprioritizes or clashes with all your ground attacks Actually, I WANT to clash with your F-tilt if I whiff a ground move. This means I get to shield before you do anything else.
* Ftilt is almost completely unpunishable on block Again, this is false. F-tilt can be easily punished out of shield. Snake has to literally space it at the VERY tip for it to be safe on block. And it has to be fresh (extra shieldstun)
* Dthrow tech chase game is incredibly effective due to the poor nature of G&W's getup options
* Tilts out of shield are fast enough to punish landing lag from fair/dair/bair
* Utilt trades with dair and beats it from behind G&W
* Shield + grenades shuts out aerial pressure if misspaced Don't be dumb about it, because Snake can't attack while holding an item. This leaves you open to be grabbed.
* Extremely damaging ftilt that comes out ridiculously fast, leaving none of your attacks safe on block
I agree G&W can't easily stay safe on block against Snake's tilts. THIS is the reason why Snake beats him by far. Every time G&W doesn't shield poke Snake and if he didn't space safely enough, he eats a F-tilt.
Grenades....they make things lamer and slower. But the solution around them isn't very complicated if you're simply patient. What consistently gives G&W more problems is just the fact he can't stay safe from Snake's key damagers and killers and he doesn't do enough damage per hit nor does he KO early enough to compensate for this.
Grenades are nowhere near the level of Marth or MK's Up-B out of shield.
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