Game & Watch Match-up Export Thread Directory

[A2ZOMG]

If you repeatedly powershield his ftilts, he'll eventually catch on and just grab you, which is awful for G&W.

Firstoff, it isn't quite as simple as that.

Snake's F-tilt has more range than his grab. You can grab his KNEE if you PS it because he leans in so much on this attack.

The thing is either he F-tilts, you PS it and grab, or jump out of shield and get out if he waited.

His grab isn't easily reaching you either way if you know the spacing of his F-tilt.

Seriously, this works very easily on any Snake that believes they can camp with just well-spaced F-tilts. Shield comes out in 1 frame, so it's not that hard to do.

Just try it...run up and shield when you get to the range of his F-tilt. Works like a charm. It isn't tech skill. It's just exploiting common spacing. The only things Snake can reach you with at a certain range are F-tilt and U-tilt (which he shouldn't be using most of the time unless he knows he can KO with it safely), and shielding when you run to this range gets you some easy powershields.

 

[Diddyknight]

Dont key against Diddy. Diddys can usuallypunish it hard. bair bair bair bair fishbowl is all you need.....save ur smash since can kill diddy at 80-90

why am i doing this T_T

 

[slikvik]

Lobos is in my crew. I think toonlink has the advantage. G&W has to work so hard to get through the spam. Back when I used G&W a lot, we would go back and forth in the match-up. but then I would bust out wario who I barely used at all and didn't use in tourney at the time and ****.

Diddy...just camp him

 

[Gishnak]

Firstoff, it isn't quite as simple as that.

Snake's F-tilt has more range than his grab. You can grab his KNEE if you PS it because he leans in so much on this attack.

The thing is either he F-tilts, you PS it and grab, or jump out of shield and get out if he waited.

His grab isn't easily reaching you either way if you know the spacing of his F-tilt.

Seriously, this works very easily on any Snake that believes they can camp with just well-spaced F-tilts. Shield comes out in 1 frame, so it's not that hard to do.

Just try it...run up and shield when you get to the range of his F-tilt. Works like a charm. It isn't tech skill. It's just exploiting common spacing. The only things Snake can reach you with at a certain range are F-tilt and U-tilt (which he shouldn't be using most of the time unless he knows he can KO with it safely), and shielding when you run to this range gets you some easy powershields.

A2Z, are you going to all this trouble explaining why it's good to run in with a shield against a "snake that believes they can camp with just well-space F-tilts"? Because, okay, that may work.

But who cares?! When discussing matchups, we need to talk about high level snakes, that don't just camp with Ftilts. In general, there will be grenades/mines/and mortar to avoid. Then Snake will probably be pretty mobile. The Snake will probably jab before ftilting, or only do the first part of the ftilt, or wait in his shield, on rush in and grab.

And honestly, why would it be good to run in before shielding. If you run in with your shield, you MAYBE will get a PS which leads to what? A grab, then maybe a running attack or fair. So maybe 20%? Or.. The snake will wait to ftilt, and now you are in a bad position with a smaller shield. You can try to PS again, but that's unlikely. You can up +B (best option probably), or you can eat a full ftilt. (About 20%).

Or maybe he grabs you, this will lead to 15-30%.

Approaching Snake with a shield as Gdubs is a bad bad idea to do consistently. Maybe a few times a game you should toss this in to mix it up, but it's risk/reward is really bad. A2Z, try to pretend you are fighting a good/smart snake before suggesting strategies.

 

[Max Ketchum]

Obviously Snake's grab is shorter than ftilt. Run forward and dash grab is what I was talking about.

 

[Neb]

Guys, come on, this is the Diddy match-up. Your spoiling the Snake discussion before we even get to it...

 

[Hylian]

Keep it on topic from now on.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@Slivik. Toon Link's camping is much easier to get around than Diddy's camping. If you can powershield consistently, you'll get in pretty quickly and he'll be in a tough position. You have more practical range on some better attacks, and have the HUGE advantage in edgeguarding. And his KO moves are garbage in general.

Diddy's shieldcamping is much harder to deal with....as his glidetoss out of shield is better than Toon Link's shieldgrab by far. I mean unlike Toon Link who you can just walk up to and then B-air his back, you have to actually wait for Diddy to throw something at you before you can start anything. <_<

 

[Hylian]

I didn't say talk about snake and then highlight it in black, I said keep it on topic.

I only gave you a warning since you have no infractions, but seriously?

If you wanted to reply to him you could of PM'ed him. Don't reply to this in this thread either.

This WILL stay on topic.

 

[_Phloat_]

As someone who plays both, how do you feel about this matchup Hylian?

 

[Hylian]

As someone who plays both, how do you feel about this matchup Hylian?

Gah, you caught me right before I'm about to leave for work lol. Then I'm going to be at a tournament all weekend >_>.

I think the match-up is 60-40, and I've thought this since FAST. Diddy has a pretty easy time punishing all of GW's approaches and all of GW's animations(get-up,rolling,teching) are horrible. The Up-B is a livesaver in this match and you certainly have better counterpick stages but actually fighting diddy is a pain in the ***.

Wish I could elaborate more but I have to go to work.

Au revoir .

 

[KOS-MOS]

DMG I have played Kos-Mos several times. I don't think his peach has ever taken me to last stock, and the first time I played him I 3 stocked him. He used ZSS against me in tournament because I was beating his peach so badly.

MM at HOBO14?

EDIT: I don't remember getting 3 stocked O_o

 

[UTDZac]

MM at HOBO14?

EDIT: I don't remember getting 3 stocked O_o

I want to see this recorded. And the MM vs. Dphat's Marth. And Hylian vs. DMG's G&W (and/or diddy).

I think some good videos between DMG's diddy and Hylian's G&W can help us with the matchup discussion eh?

 

[_Phloat_]

He doesn't work >_>

He is lying to us!

 

[Ruuku]

I wish I could could contribute more but this is still one of my really tough matchups. If I have to do this matchup, I usually try yo get a percentage lead then I "run away". Otherwise I would play as Falco for this matchup.

 

[DMG]

MM at HOBO14?

EDIT: I don't remember getting 3 stocked O_o

O **** Hylian lol, I forgot Kos-Mos is coming back down for Hobo 14.

And yeah I don't remember you 3 stocking him Hylian lol.

I want to see this recorded. And the MM vs. Dphat's Marth. And Hylian vs. DMG's G&W (and/or diddy).

I think some good videos between DMG's diddy and Hylian's G&W can help us with the matchup discussion eh?

Sure I'd be down for that. I'll even go to some of Diddy's worse maps/G&W's best if you want too.

 

[Hylian]

MM at HOBO14?

EDIT: I don't remember getting 3 stocked O_o

I 3 stocked you twice actually at Oh Snap in friendlies both when I played your peach. You used ZSS against me in tournament.

I'd love to MM though .

Edit: You weren't there DMG I don't see how you could remember lol.

Also, we should do a recorded MM Diddy vs GW for the match-up .

I also want one with your wario.

 

[DMG]

Well I mean I'm thinking of FS5.

And alright, MM it is lol. I was just gonna do a serious set, but ok. $5 G&W vs Diddy, 10$ Wario vs G&W.

 

[Hylian]

Well I mean I'm thinking of FS5.

And alright, MM it is lol. I was just gonna do a serious set, but ok. $10 MM Diddy vs G&W, 20$ MM Wario vs G&W? Or both $10?

I kind of short on money actually I just spent over $1000 on some things. I was thinking $5 each lol.

Maybe $10 Wario vs GW .

 

[TheHebrewHammer]

I always go to a place were I can platform camp diddy to avoid any bananas. Everytime I slip on a banana I get ***** since all of GaW roll and get up animation are hella bad. GaW glide toss is hard for me to perform as well. 60/40 in diddy favor.

 

[Praxis]

MM at Genesis Hylian

And MM between you and Chip too xD

 

[TheHebrewHammer]

**** you like to **** 2d characters shame on you praxis =( Wish I could have MMed you at BIO, but I had to leave hella early.

 

[Praxis]

:3
Shoulda stayed, I 2-0'd everyone else, coulda used more money xD
Next time! ^_^

 

[TheHebrewHammer]

What Gaws did you fight over there, I felt pretty confident on winning our MM, because I have a lot of peach experience with one of our local peaches, he's really good too. It's okay next time I see ya we will MM.

 

[omegablackmage]

alright, moved discussion over to snake for the rest of the weekend. stay on topic guys, you have been warned by hylian and now me.

 

[Le_THieN]

@Diddy Matchup:

I hate this matchup. I dunno what to think about it. I probably just suck in general with regards to bananas. I played Thiens diddy for like 4hrs straight last weekend and only won our first couple of games. I could also blame the fact we were playing at 5am-9am and we were both tired as crap. Again idk. Glide tossing doesn't help THAT much.
He claims the most annoying thing from G&W is his uair. He said he would get followed and owned by this other G&W that forced air play with uair.

Sorry for somewhat derailing the focus of the Snake rediscussion, but I literally did not notice OBM's request on the Diddy Forums for input aid until about 20 minutes ago.

I based a lot of my understanding of the Diddy vs. G&W Match-Up on previous tournament encounters with both Hylian and UTD Zac, as well as several cumulative hours' worth of friendlies with Hylian over the last several months. I thought I had seen every trick in G&W's book by the time we touched down in Philly for Clash of the Titans 4, and then I ran into Dire Vulcan in the very first round of Winner's Brackets. I got two-and-outed in fairly close matches, but Dire definitely abused a couple of simple tactics that I never really considered:

• D-air cross-ups: Even though G&W has almost nonexistent cool-down on the landing lag of his D-air, it is still punishable by Diddy's glide-toss out of shield if your opponent anticipates fast enough. Dire's simple remedy was to DI his D-air behind me; he still got the bonus of pressure my shield and possibly stabbing through it, as well as putting himself out of danger of being immediately counterattacked, especially if I was caught unarmed. By the time I caught on to his strategy, I was already too far down in stocks/percentages to begin baiting it.
  
  His other (arguably more effective) shield pressure tactic was to approach into my shield with a SHed N-air, expend a second jump and then D-air behind me, or D-air behind me immediately out of the N-air. Both were very tricky and effective mix-ups for obvious reasons.
  
  
• D-airing off-stage: Although Diddy can recover from great distances at virtually any angle, it suffers from one critical flaw: the trajectory that he must recover at is always fairly obvious and predictable. To make matters worse, virtually every move in G&W's arsenal out-prioritizes the Rocket Barrel Blast. G&W's D-air is an excellent deterrent to Diddy's attempts to recover vertically, and it also stuffs horizontal attempts initiated by his Monkey Flip quite nicely.
  
  
• U-air pressure: If you notice Diddy trying to recover back onto the stage from above and he has expended both his second jump and Monkey Flip options, tag him with U-air and follow his DI. Dire forced this jam on me more than once, and all I could do was helplessly air-dodge. Eventually, I caught on and just started saving all my options to escape the U-air trap, but you will net more than your fair share of free damage if you can corner Diddy into landing where you want him to.

I'm not terribly fond of specific match-up ratios, but while I definitely think Diddy has the slight edge in the match-up, the ratio disparity isn't quite as big as people make it out to be.

On a separate note, I'm in the process of uploading many of our matches, Zac. =)

EDIT: PLZ DON'T WARN MEEEEEE

 

[UTDZac]

Good stuff Thien, I'll have to subscribe to your vids and what not. I think I just need more play experience against Diddys

As for snake, ugg idk. I think one of the biggest deals is to not lose patience. I watched Hylian's match with Razer today over the HOBO14 live stream. He was doing very well the first stock of so, then everything just went downhill from there. Maybe he just wasn't mixing it up enough. Idk, it's hard to say it's in Snakes favor or not. This really depends on the stage and if the Snake player catches onto your playstyle quick enough.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I said a ton of stuff earlier pages.

I agree it's about patience. I mean...it's by no means easy, but there is a legit way to get in on Snake if you are REALLY alert.

 

[Plum]

Snake just leaves no room for error.
Assuming you space to your maximum range and stay in that "middle distance" you should be fine.
But Snake has so much more room for error in this matchup than you..

If you can force him into the air that bravo, things just totally turned into your favor, but Snake does a great job of keeping himself on the ground.

His recovery is just begging for punishment; even if you don't get a kill as he tries to are guaranteed free damage from attacks or forcing him to C4. At the same time he really shouldn't be able to guard you; recover low and sweetspot the edge while using any invincibility frames to go through a mortar or any other explosive.

Grenades shouldn't be an issue unless he is using them to shield; which most will do to try to stop Bairs but it is possible to hit the very top of him without setting of the grenade.

His tilts are still ********... If you screw up your spacing at all you will be hit by a Ftilt or a Utilt if you are at a killing percent.

If I don't switch to DDD for a Snake matchup then I like Norfair. So many platforms and a lack straight ground for Snake. Only issue I have with this stage is how easy it is for Snake to techchase after a Dthrow but G&W will have an easy time as well so you can't really say Snake has an advantage in that aspect.

 

[omegablackmage]

i'd like to know if people think this should be moved to a 35/65? my vote goes for keeping it at 4/6

 

[TheHebrewHammer]

Snake is the only character that gives me problems out of the cast. I think the match up is 65/35.

 

[Max Ketchum]

I played a G&W in tourney yesterday. It wasn't an amazing one, but he knew what he was doing. Everything I thought about this match happened to be pretty close to true. Grenades discourage bair a lot, ftilt on the shield is almost entirely safe, and it's really easy to kill G&W. I think 65:35 is definitely the right number.

 

[Vinnie]

i'd like to know if people think this should be moved to a 35/65? my vote goes for keeping it at 4/6

35:65, definitely.

Grenade camping >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GnW

 

[S.B.Soldier]

hmm, i dont usually experience as much trouble with a snake as i do a MK or DK... and of course there is toon link, who i also main, so this forum is helping me a lot... snake is really good at getting through 90% of my attacks, so i tend to disregard well placed mines and grenades, sometimes just running right through them to punish the back end of a snake dash, etc. Turtle can be my friend a lot here, although I have a lot less areial game due to snakes incredible up a aerial. I just usually fake out and short hop my dair. the massive amount of artillery with great snake players make for such a deadly combo, that sometimes I just counterpick snakes with either my own snake or TL. I just let my game and watch take a break, haha

 

[cutter]

Just like most other matchups, it gets worse the more linear the stage becomes.

 

[PentaSalia]

I played a G&W in tourney yesterday. It wasn't an amazing one, but he knew what he was doing. Everything I thought about this match happened to be pretty close to true. Grenades discourage bair a lot, ftilt on the shield is almost entirely safe, and it's really easy to kill G&W. I think 65:35 is definitely the right number.

that's too low
G&W doesn't get ***** that bad
i say 45:55
if bair is used correctly ,you can still hit even if he's holding a grenade
and you can rack up damage easily once you've gotten through his bomb barrier(lol)

i find it hard to catch up when i'm down a stock though...
the grenade spam just gets me

 

[Max Ketchum]

Lol 45:55? Not a chance.

 

[PentaSalia]

well even if it's not
65:35 is too low

 

[Neb]

Grenade camping is manageable, however it requires G&W to be very patient and smart in the execution of his attacks. I say 6:4, but it could be 65:35 depending on the map. Even so, its really not that big of a difference.

 

[omegablackmage]

i changed marth to 35/65, seems to be the general consensus, even though i don't entirely agree