Game & Watch Match-up Export Thread Directory

[UTDZac]

Awesome. Thanks Pierce7d for the input.

I keep hearing bair is bad against Marth. But seriously, if Marth is approaching in the air, how does G&W bair not stop him everytime no matter what he tries to do? G&W can even wait until after he sees the start-up animation of Marth's fair just by casually walking away.

Also imagine this. Start of the match. G&W bairs Marth's shield. Marth uses UpB and does a little bit of damage. G&W then runs up and bair's Marth's shield again. marth uses UpB and does a little more damage. G&W, once again, runs up and uses bair. Guess how big Marth's shield is... that's right. He will get hit by the third bair (sometimes second). From that point G&W can capitalize on the fact Marth has no shield and be aggressive for a little bit. When Marth's shield finally recharges, G&W can repeat this. Obviously he'll want to mix it up a little, but that's the general strategy if you are forced to approach as G&W.

As a G&W main I typically don't roll much. And if I ever face a Marth, I never roll period. It's honestly not that hard to just train yourself not to roll (just like training to use bucket breaking). So I don't see how this is an advantage against a good G&W.

Along with rolling, I refuse to use dair against Marths because of how telegraphed it is. If I have to use it, it'll first be used on stock two (of marth), so he doesn't see it coming. Again, it's not that difficult to just tell yourself "Don't use dair. Don't use dair." And a good G&W should never dair a shield to begin with.

This discussion is definitely a hard one. Maybe we should just reevaluate after a few more months.

 

[slikvik]

UTD Zac. What marth experience do you have. just wondering

edit: besides melee1 cuz he mains ICs and his marth wasn't that good

 

[DMG]

Marth doesn't have to approach in the air, if he stays on the ground there's not much you can do. Bair gets beat by DS OOS or just DS in general, he can stuff your ground game with Dancing Blade and Dtilt, his grab range is better than yours and your options to avoid a grab from him are terrible. A Marth who stays on the ground is much more dangerous than one who approaches in the air a lot.

For that scenario you described, where you constantly Bair his shield to wear it out, Marth can just retreat a small bit and try to punish you on the landing lag or be a little flashy and DS without shielding. He can also Ftilt or Fsmash which have a bit more range than Bair (it's a little risky but not impossible).

I think Marth has it at least 6/4 vs G&W. It's probably worse if Marth decides to just not approach anymore with a lead.

 

[UTDZac]

UTD Zac. What marth experience do you have. just wondering

edit: besides melee1 cuz he mains ICs and his marth wasn't that good

Agreed, his Marth wasn't good.

Mostly a lot of play experience with Dphat from Dallas. Probably more time spent playing with him than anyone else from dallas. We spend hours at a time playing. We've both learned some edges against each other. For example, he's learn how not to get gimped by G&W anymore, how to punish out of shield everytime (hell-of-annoying), and how to abuse fair tippers.

I've also played RoyR a couple of times, but that was a long time ago (Sept) so it doesn't count. And not to discredit any of the other Marths, but I heard Neo got 3-stocked by Infinity (a dallas MK) at CoT4. Infinity beats Dphat's marth consistently, losing sometimes, and 2-stocking (high percent) others. To me it's really hard to compare Marth players against one another, just like it is to compare G&W players with one another.

Also, regardless of how much credit you think this gives me, I've watched several G&W vs. Marth videos online. It's really easy for me to learn a character or develop techniques simply by watching them. That and it's pretty obvious to notice spacing issues or repeated dairs that keep getting punished. I've seen good G&W and bad G&W getting destroyed by Marths here and there. And occasionally there's a few wins for G&W. Hence why I think it's 65:35 in favor of Marth, going off of everyone else's experience in the matchup.

In regards to strategies discussed about how Marths can beat certain G&W techniques or how G&Ws can beat certain Marth techniques, it really all depends on the heat of the moment. There are quite a few strategies that seem like they will never work, actually quite do. How many times have you randomly gotten a kill from spamming a smash attack with G&W (like Upsmash) out of no where? Stuff just happens.

I apologize if all of my input makes me seem like I know the matchup hands down. I'm still waiting to play some good marth's this weekend. I'm mostly trying to throw stuff out there that I've seen work / be effective. You're welcome to try it and give feedback if you have other/better Marth's to try it against.

 

[slikvik]

Agreed, his Marth wasn't good.

Mostly a lot of play experience with Dphat from Dallas. Probably more time spent playing with him than anyone else from dallas. We spend hours at a time playing. We've both learned some edges against each other. For example, he's learn how not to get gimped by G&W anymore, how to punish out of shield everytime (hell-of-annoying), and how to abuse fair tippers.

I've also played RoyR a couple of times, but that was a long time ago (Sept) so it doesn't count. And not to discredit any of the other Marths, but I heard Neo got 3-stocked by Infinity (a dallas MK) at CoT4. Infinity beats Dphat's marth consistently, losing sometimes, and 2-stocking (high percent) others. To me it's really hard to compare Marth players against one another, just like it is to compare G&W players with one another.

Also, regardless of how much credit you think this gives me, I've watched several G&W vs. Marth videos online. It's really easy for me to learn a character or develop techniques simply by watching them. That and it's pretty obvious to notice spacing issues or repeated dairs that keep getting punished. I've seen good G&W and bad G&W getting destroyed by Marths here and there. And occasionally there's a few wins for G&W. Hence why I think it's 65:35 in favor of Marth, going off of everyone else's experience in the matchup.

In regards to strategies discussed about how Marths can beat certain G&W techniques or how G&Ws can beat certain Marth techniques, it really all depends on the heat of the moment. There are quite a few strategies that seem like they will never work, actually quite do. How many times have you randomly gotten a kill from spamming a smash attack with G&W (like Upsmash) out of no where? Stuff just happens.

I apologize if all of my input makes me seem like I know the matchup hands down. I'm still waiting to play some good marth's this weekend. I'm mostly trying to throw stuff out there that I've seen work / be effective. You're welcome to try it and give feedback if you have other/better Marth's to try it against.

ok, this post makes sense, but your previous post says that you believed the match-up was in G&Ws favor...shrug. I don't wanna john for neo, but I wouldn't base his level of play off that set. Anyone who was in chibos apartment at the time already knows what I'm talking about

 

[Steel]

back to UTD's example... you're going to willingly take damage to hope that marth just stands there with his shield 3 times in a row? also even without a shield, marth can just aggro lol. not to mention your limited options vs his dtilt that completely shuts down your ground game

 

[_Phloat_]

back to UTD's example... you're going to willingly take damage to hope that marth just stands there with his shield 3 times in a row? also even without a shield, marth can just aggro lol. not to mention your limited options vs his dtilt that completely shuts down your ground game

****ing marth.

Too goods =[

 

[Noa.]

Ugh, I have a friend who mains Marth, and just yesterday I was able to beat him so consistantly. I told him, "You're playing with Marth, but you're not playing like a Marth." He was more or less just playing on instinct and experience with Marth. I convinced him to get more serious, and actually learn from Smashboards.

I played him again today, and his Marth is one I can't beat easily. He wins most of the matches, but I do win a fair amount as well. He may not have truly learned how to play as Marth yet, but he will soon enough.

And god, have I never disliked Marth more. So much range, and answer to all my attacks. And my smashes are a tad bit slower than his. This really is a horrible matchup.

 

[UTDZac]

I think I'm the only crazy one who likes this matchup...

Spoiler

dont hurt me ><

 

[Neb]

I agree that a perfectly spaced bair is a nice tool in this match-up, but it shouldn't be overused for reasons Hylian has already expressed. Why take the chance? Game & Watch is in such a better position in this match-up when he's not sticking his head out to get sliced. The whole reason the turtle is being stressed so much is to trigger an offensive burst, be it a juggle trap or edgeguard. G&W can still achieve that by punishing Marth's approaches.

Combat his aerials with walls, by sneaking in jab/dtilt, or angling upb into his center. Constantly stay just outside tipper range, while throwing out clashing hitboxes (when safe) to get inside. And keep bailing with 'chute/walking out of his assaults, if you run out of room, camp the ledge.

Dtilt and Fsmash at tipper ranges will punish SH's, and will usually stuff or pop Marth as he uses aerials, and or tries to retreat. The spacing needed to punish the torch and the lid is almost as burdensome as Bair vs DS, its either a whiff, or a stuff/hit, if not properly spaced. These ground-moves also cancel with Marth's tilts, and out-range Dancing Blade.

6/4, Marths favor.

 

[Noa.]

Yeah, it's definetly 6:4, Marh's favor, until proven otherwise.

Spoiler

Like that'll ever happen. =/

 

[cutter]

I'll be bringing my recording equipment to Nexus Prime Reborn this weekend and if I find a competent Marth there I'll try my best to get some matches recorded.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I dunno about you guys....but I'm pretty convinced this is G&W's worst matchup, and a little more than a mere 6/4 in Marth's favor.

Like anywhere between 65/35 and 6/4. After that I don't think G&W has any other matchups that are that bad.

 

[Fyist]

=/ I really dont see how people can even complain about this match up.

 

[wildjango]

game and watch is gay

 

[Vinnie]

game and watch is gay

That post sure helped a lot.

>_______________________________________________________________>

anyways, IMO It's 60:40. You can still wait until marth approaches space out -> turtle.

I also like to do several bairs in a row, and then wait for them to start shielding (and then they'd up b oos) ... after a couple of times, I do some short hop air dodges. IDK y but it helps a lot. Also, dtilt is good against him near the edge, and then some drop off fairs. All you gotsta do against marth is play really really really smart.

 

[DallasPhat]

You need to play Roy_R or Neo Zac lol. Last time I played Dphatt I could beat him pretty consistantly >_> and I still think the match-up is horrible. Playstyles shouldn't affect the match-up as long as both characters have options against each other. The pure stats of Marth vs GW suggest it pretty much impossible for it to be in GW's favor. Playstyles is a completly different thing.


I also have no idea what roy thinks of the match-up, I'll ask him next time I see him.

Pretty funny hylian cause last time I challenged you to a marth vs g&w mm you declined... and the only time we played were random characters or ic vs marth (which you only won once) so please don't skew things out of proportion buddy. Anyways back to the match up.

This match up is 6:4 if not better in marth favor. Don't listen to zac I was trying new things that day, this match up is really difficult for g&w, all of g&w approaches can be shielded to Up-b, his b-air is easily punished by sdi up and f-air, heck I even found a way to take the first three hits of the b-air sdi down, tech and follow up with any smash or up-b. All in all a campy marth will beat out the g&w and those multi hitting moves are easy to get out of. Anyways marth up-b oos > then g&w aerial approaches and his dancing blade can punish any miss-spaced move. Overall marth have an answer to all of g&w moves and his oos option against g&w is just too much.

 

[UTDZac]

Yup listen to Dphat. He basically played as "gay" as he could with Marth in our friendlies to just prove that Marth truly is G&W's worst matchup.

If the Marth cares, he can shut down anything G&W wants to do. That or just trade with it. A Marth that spaces well enough should have any problems against G&W's kill moves. That and gimping Marth is quite difficult if the Marth has experience in the area.

 

[cutter]

It's quite sad how Brawl has already degenerated into the ultimate defensive war by means of percentages. G&W basically cannot afford at all to get behind in percentage against Marth.

Oh well; it's not like G&W is the only one that suffers this problem as well :/

 

[Hylian]

Pretty funny hylian cause last time I challenged you to a marth vs g&w mm you declined... and the only time we played were random characters or ic vs marth (which you only won once) so please don't skew things out of proportion buddy. Anyways back to the match up.

This match up is 6:4 if not better in marth favor. Don't listen to zac I was trying new things that day, this match up is really difficult for g&w, all of g&w approaches can be shielded to Up-b, his b-air is easily punished by sdi up and f-air, heck I even found a way to take the first three hits of the b-air sdi down, tech and follow up with any smash or up-b. All in all a campy marth will beat out the g&w and those multi hitting moves are easy to get out of. Anyways marth up-b oos > then g&w aerial approaches and his dancing blade can punish any miss-spaced move. Overall marth have an answer to all of g&w moves and his oos option against g&w is just too much.

Uh, last time I played your marth was at centex and I won the majority. How am I skewing things lol? I am also suprised I declined a MM from you, I never decline MM's lol. I love MMing people >_>.

I know it was a long time ago but it was still the last time I played your marth with GW lol.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I mean vs ANYONE else (except Metaknight, who I think you can camp though), you have the option of doing fancy and creative stuff to approach.

You can't do that vs Marth. And your camping doesn't work very well against him due to his solid shield pressure options.

****, you can actually approach Snake if you're smart AND you can camp all of his approaches very effectively by simply throwing out F-Smashes (which clank with his tilts safely). Seriously what the **** at Snake being G&W's worst matchup? He doesn't shut down G&W nearly as hard nor as consistently as Marth. Seriously...grenade camping isn't close to 100% unbeatable if you simply have patience. It's gay as hell, but grenades BY FAR are MUCH less likely to KO you than a Dolphin Slash OOS, and he can't spam them consistently like the way Marth can simply shieldcamp 95% of the match and win. Snake unlike Marth also lacks the option of spacing like a freak, so in general he's much less safe when he actually throws out attacks.

I've played the Metaknight matchup a bit recently, and seriously...Metaknight could easily be a worse matchup than Snake due to him camping you harder than Snake can. Not forgetting he's one of the hardest characters to edgeguard in the game (well, you can D-air his Up-B...)

 

[omegablackmage]

imo, diddy/marth are the hardest, then mk, then snake. but thats just me and most people have very different opinions of the matchups than i do.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

It's my opinion that Marth and Snake are the hardest, then Diddy, then MK. That's just me of course.
How was Darc's Marth, OBM?

 

[Ruuku]

For me it's Marth>MK>Diddy>Snake>DDD. In that particular order.

 

[Neb]

For me it's Marth>MK>Diddy>Snake>DDD. In that particular order.

Yeah, I agree with this.

 

[Noa.]

I don't tend to have trouble with Diddy at all. If I'm near the same level of the player, I handle Diddy just fine. Maybe I just haven't fought any competent Diddy players. But Marth is certainly my worst matchup.

 

[UTDZac]

Uh, last time I played your marth was at centex and I won the majority. How am I skewing things lol? I am also suprised I declined a MM from you, I never decline MM's lol. I love MMing people >_>.

I know it was a long time ago but it was still the last time I played your marth with GW lol.

You two should money match at HOBO 14. I dare you Hylian. DPhat's a beast. If you beat him tell me how.

It regards to worst matchups, I'd say it's in this order (given stages mean a lot for different matchups, im just averaging):

MK > Marth > Snake > Diddy > DDD

MK is by far the worst. I've talked to Dojo on this one and it's true. MK's UpB stops everything you got. You lose if MK ever has a percent lead. MK controls this matchup, not G&W.

Marth is truly annoying. His grab game mixed in with his shield, UpB, and SideB make it way too difficult to approach. Marth controls this matchup, not G&W.

Snake is just rough. He will punish mistakes easy, especially dair. You cant afford to mess up. With a lot of practice it's really easy to kill him coming down from the air (time Upsmash, trust me). Patience is key.

Diddy is tough, but not that hard if you know the matchup. If you dont, he'll wreck you with bananas. Rushing in against Diddy is just asking for trouble. Uair is golden in this matchup.

 

[Vinnie]

For me,

Snake > marth > MK > Diddy > Toon Link > Dedede

 

[omegablackmage]

ok so im probably gunna go ahead and change this matchup to a 4/6 marth, most people agree that it is at least that. im going to move on to mk likely next.

 

[_Phloat_]

Up-B OOS, The reason I have snake.

 

[DMG]

Hylian you would lose to Dphat IMO. Even if you went IC's he could just go MK lol. Not trying to sound like a douche, but seriously Dphat on a good day is scary, even for someone like me. I'd expect Dphat to beat any G&W players in Texas when he is playing like he does. Not even Zac or I could beat him.


Marth is 65:35 for them.

Snake is 65:35 for them.

MK is 65:35 for them.

Diddy is 60:40 for them.

Dedede is like 50:50 to 60:40 for us.

These are just my opinions of course. I know that Marth is easily 65:35. I don't think Snake is harder than Marth anymore, but I also don't see him as 60:40 considering it is way easier to CP Diddy. MK is also definitely harder to beat than Diddy, but I don't see him as being like harder than Marth. He and Marth you both lose to pretty easily with a % lead, I guess Marth would be easier to CP but I think MK is slightly easier to approach and do stuff like Dthrow to Tech Chase regrab or Dthrow to D/Fsmash guaranteed. Dedede, on the other hand, shouldn't be a disadvantage to us lol.

 

[Gishnak]

Hylian you would lose to Dphat IMO. Even if you went IC's he could just go MK lol. Not trying to sound like a douche, but seriously Dphat on a good day is scary, even for someone like me. I'd expect Dphat to beat any G&W players in Texas when he is playing like he does.


Marth is 65:35 for them.

Snake is 65:35 for them.

MK is 65:35 for them.

Diddy is 60:40 for them.

Dedede is like 50:50 to 60:40 for us.

I agree with these matchup percentages for the most part.

Just a note regarding the input and suggestions put forward by alot of people... Maybe you have Marth experience or whatnot, but if you don't have top level Marth experience, you can't judge the matchup accurately. It's as simple as that.

And because of this, I'll quickly mention a few things about the matchups in which I have played good players as gdubs. (snake+diddy I go falco, so I don't know the gdubs matchup with them as well, and thus am not as sure of the metagame)

I've played very good Marths, and gdubs Marth is 65:35 imo... Honestly, if the Marth plays safe, it's very very difficult for game and watch to do almost anything. And killing a patient Marth? Good ****ing luck. You won't be landing a smash, you arn't gimping him, and surprising him with a fair is real difficult.

I've played good MKs, and gdubs MK is also 65:35. I feel like the gdubs mk matchup is somewhat similar to marth gdubs in the sense that gdubs gets owned the same way. There is no good way to approach MK. If Mk sticks to the ground, he can punish anything you have. And again, killing a smart/patient MK is very difficult. You can't land a smash unless you mindgame really well.

D3 is an interesting/fun matchup. Alot of options against D3, but small mistakes cost you quite abit. The utilt kills very early, and D3 can easily shieldgrab poorly spaced turtles. The d3 can also trade hits with his bair and yours, and this is obviously not good. D3 Can't edgeguard gdubs, but gdubs can edge guard d3 pretty well. I think it's 55/45, but it could go a little up or down like DMG mentioned.

Those matchups I am pretty confident about.

Snake? I've played good Snakes with gdubs, but mostly in doubles. Somewhat theory craft, but how I see the matchup... Gdubs has alot more options in the snake gdubs matchup the marth/mk matchup. However, much like d3(but to a much worse degree), gdubs is HEAVILY punished for his mistakes. Poorly space something? Ftilt. Or grab which leads to a very easy techchase for snake. (Your best bet is standing straight up and up+bing, but good Snakes know this and will regrab :/). Also, hard to juggle Snakes, because they can pull out nades and you just trade damage with Snake, which is a BAD idea in this matchup. Also, killing snake is a major pain if the Snake knows what he is doing with pivots. So it looks like gdubs does better in this match, than mk/marth, but because of snakes damage+kill potential+weight it's still 65/35 imo.

Also, A2, stop posting about the snake gdubs matchup until you play a good snake. THx.

Okay, so those matchups I know decently well, and thus my information I'm confident is mostly valid.

 

[DMG]

I've played very good Marths, and gdubs Marth is 65:35 imo... Honestly, if the Marth plays safe, it's very very difficult for game and watch to do almost anything. And killing a patient Marth? Good ****ing luck. You won't be landing a smash, you arn't gimping him, and surprising him with a fair is real difficult.

Spot on.

I've played good MKs, and gdubs MK is also 65:35. I feel like the gdubs mk matchup is somewhat similar to marth gdubs in the sense that gdubs gets owned the same way. There is no good way to approach MK. If Mk sticks to the ground, he can punish anything you have. And again, killing a smart/patient MK is very difficult. You can't land a smash unless you mindgame really well.

Yeah I feel that Marth and MK are relatively the same. I think that MK is slightly easier to approach than Marth in some instances, and like when you get up close to MK if you land a grab you can get a lot more out of it or at least threaten to get a lot more out of it than against Marth. I've noticed though that Marth is also a lot easier to CP than MK, and MK also has better guaranteed combo's at earlier %'s and dumb stuff like Uair-Footstool-Weak Nair-Dtilt Lock-Somewhat charged Fsmash/Dsmash/Free hit. IDK maybe MK is indeed harder than Marth, I just never imagined him as 70:30 but now that I think about it it's bad.

D3 is an interesting/fun matchup. Alot of options against D3, but small mistakes cost you quite abit. The utilt kills very early, and D3 can easily shieldgrab poorly spaced turtles. The d3 can also trade hits with his bair and yours, and this is obviously not good. D3 Can't edgeguard gdubs, but gdubs can edge guard d3 pretty well. I think it's 55/45, but it could go a little up or down like DMG mentioned.

Yeah anything in that range sounds good.

Snake? I've played good Snakes with gdubs, but mostly in doubles. Somewhat theory craft, but how I see the matchup... Gdubs has alot more options in the snake gdubs matchup the marth/mk matchup. However, much like d3(but to a much worse degree), gdubs is HEAVILY punished for his mistakes. Poorly space something? Ftilt. Or grab which leads to a very easy techchase for snake. (Your best bet is standing straight up and up+bing, but good Snakes know this and will regrab :/). Also, hard to juggle Snakes, because they can pull out nades and you just trade damage with Snake, which is a BAD idea in this matchup. Also, killing snake is a major pain if the Snake knows what he is doing with pivots. So it looks like gdubs does better in this match, than mk/marth, but because of snakes damage+kill potential+weight it's still 65/35 imo.

Very accurate analysis as well. Even if you haven't played very many Snakes in Singles, you described him vs G&W very well and compared him to MK/Marth accurately as well.


But yeah OBM, go ahead and list Marth as 65:35. I'll get into the MK discussion in depth myself in a bit.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Vs Metaknight:

Metaknight is a pretty lame matchup.

Since I'm too lazy to actually come up with new ideas for explaining things, I'm just going to compare him to Marth, G&W's worst matchup.

Metaknight has slightly less range....not that it really matters. He still outranges you on most attacks and outspeeds you. That sucks. On the other hand, you do have more room to camp some of his stuff if he's trying to get a little too agressive.

Metaknight is easier to juggle due to not having counter and due to having a lower aerial top speed. If he misses techs from D-throw, good for you. If not, oh well. He dies earlier from whatever random **** you get on him. You need to PS in order to land Smashes consistently...otherwise you're going to have to rely on mindgaming in F-airs out of shield or D-airing his Up-B recovery much like you would against Marth.

Tornado is near-useless on G&W. That's something to be happy about. If he Tornados you, DI Up and you'll be out in a millisecond with only 2% or so and you might get to D-air him, which is pretty awesome. Not forgetting the other random crap you can do if you predict a Tornado.

Metaknight isn't QUITE as good at getting around stale moves as Marth, and while his KO moves are safer, they aren't quite as powerful most of the time either, so you survive a little longer against him. Not forgetting that you KO him earlier than Marth.

If he camps F-smash, throw out Chef just to change the pace of things.

6/4 Metaknight. It's a huge campfest, and Metaknight has the advantage as he has more solid and powerful camping. (this matchup I've played a bit in tournament, just don't remember against who. =/)

Haha Gishnak, Race doesn't count as a good Snake I bet lmao (running up and powershieldgrabbing his F-tilts for fun times lmao). I've played some really good Snakes, but unfortunately guys like Nash123 and teh_spammerer I've only played online. I could john about how G&W suffers more online than the majority of the cast, but that won't change anybody's opinion lol.

The best offline Snake I've played? Probably InsomniaK LOLOLOLOLOLOL.

But as for InsomniaK's opinion, I've talked vs Snake with him so many times, and he's played against Hall. He doesn't think Snake is close to being G&W's worst matchup. He's on AllisBrawl a lot, so if you want to talk to him, you can find him there often.

 

[Hylian]

I'd love to MM Dphatt at Hobo14.

I'm not saying Dphatts bad or that I would even beat him LOL. All I said was the last time I played him(which was a long time ago) I won. For all I know he's better then me now. I don't judge peoples skill without playing them or seeing who they beat/lose to in tournament. I know Dphatt can be a beast lol.

I also probably have more top level marth experience then any other GW player though. I've played roy_r a TON in and out of tournament. I know the match-up VERY well and I haven't been suprised by anything a marth has done recently. I played Roy_R for like 10 hours straight a couple of weeks ago :/.

I agree with DMG's %'s about the match-ups as well. All of GW's bad match-ups seem to be close to the same difficulty for different reasons. I have experience against almost all the top MK/Snake/Marth players and it's a hard road for GW to take :/.

It kind of sucks that our 3 worst match-ups are so common in tournament. No wonder there are so few GW players and the ones who are good don't win very often. We are just going to have to learn these match-ups so ****ing well we never mess up lol.

 

[Gates]

I don't think Metaknight really needs to be rediscussed. 60/40 seems like an accurate number and the matchup hasn't changed a whole lot since it was discussed the first time. I guess there's the new upBing the Tornado thing, but that just means that MKs who know the matchup will have to do something else instead, like spacing aerials or ftilt. Bucket Braking doesn't change a whole lot either, MK's offstage game is so good that he can screw you over no matter what.

 

[DMG]

Diddy is 60:40 on average though. He clearly has an advantage over G&W, but you can work around it with certain stage CP's and you can at least attempt to stuff his Banana game or take control of them yourself or get rid of them. MK, on the other hand, is harder to beat because not only is he much harder to get a good stage against, but his advantages are quite solid/you can't stop him from abusing Upb or stop him from using his advantages. You can't attempt to take control of momentum or try to get around MK's advantages quite as much as you can to Diddy.

 

[cutter]

Hylian, I'm going to have to disagree with on you saying that G&W has different problems against Marth/MK/Snake. They're not really different problems that are the reason for the matchups being bad for G&W. It's one simple reason for why it's the case:

G&W has no good projectile, and he has to approach against those characters. That's why the matchups are so bad. With Brawl being the defensive campfest that it is it will ALWAYS favor the one on defense.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Honestly Hylian, most of our problems are pretty common with a lot of characters. NOBODY likes going up against Metaknight AND Snake (well...Falco comes close). Except for us, most of the other characters we actually have the advantage on and they usually have to worry more about having fewer options against DDD and Falco.

And seriously, if you gave G&W ONE thing that was more abuseable, ANYTHING ELSE that was abuseable as his edgecamping but could be applied to more common situations, he would be insta-best character in the game. No seriously, I can think of so many individual things that would make G&W insta-top tier it's insane. He's so close to having it down against all of his tough matchups.

1. Smash attack that comes out frame 10 (or increase the disjointed range of his F-smash or something at least or get a DAC on Up-smash)
2. D-air that spikes THE ENTIRE WAY DOWN (since nobody can avoid it offstage anyway).
3. D-tilt with longer range
4. Chef had half the startup and ending lag
5. UNTECHABLE D-throw (debatable, as you have to get a grab and you need good grab range kinda...)

 

[Hylian]

Hylian, I'm going to have to disagree with on you saying that G&W has different problems against Marth/MK/Snake. They're not really different problems that are the reason for the matchups being bad for G&W. It's one simple reason for why it's the case:

G&W has no good projectile, and he has to approach against those characters. That's why the matchups are so bad. With Brawl being the defensive campfest that it is it will ALWAYS favor the one on defense.

I disagree. MK is better off being agressive and controlling vs GW then defensive. You can create options through stage positioning against defensive MK's. Smart agressive ones (M2K/Dojo) will just rip you apart though.

If anything GW's biggest problem is his longevity in these match-ups. All of these characters are great at killing GW and racking up damage as well.