Game & Watch Match-up Export Thread Directory

[Zankoku]

I have the matchup against Z/S listed as 6-4, G&W's favor, recommended to stay Sheik at all times.

G&W outprioritizes Sheik and KOs her pretty early too, plus he's really hard to gimp with his above average recovery. Tiltlock gets damage up quick and if you get tipper usmashed (probably through ftilt setup) it could be bad for you. Chain can also make things difficult MAYBE; I haven't looked into this part so much yet.

Mostly the problem is that Sheik has to work with lower priority until G&W reaches like 150% or so and then use an unstaled dsmash or nair. Or abuse ftilt so much that she can combo ftilt usmash consistently. Too bad G&W's aerials can eat right through ftilt.

 

[demodemo]

iirc, gaw's up b doesn't break out of tilt lock. someone should check this

 

[A2ZOMG]

its just that it really isnt that hard to kill you with an up smash or yoshi bomb(at 85% or so)
and we can punish your moves with an up smash pretty easily if you make mistake

The only moves I get killed by in this matchup are like random aerials at a really high percent. You can't land U-smash out of shield, and the only time G&W should really be going in the air is to actually punish Yoshi while he whiffed something. Yoshi's Up-smash is too slow otheriwse to hit a G&W 99.9999% of the time before he Up-Bs away. Down-B is DIable and can be air dodged.

If you're getting so desperate to score a revenge KO, he can edgecamp and it's essentially 100% safe.

and up close you only have dtilt against us

Dashing shieldgrab and Up-throw -> juggles and potential U-smash or F-air setups. It's not flashy, but it is effective.

@OBM Yeah, Zelda has D-tilt lock on anyone, but she'll be really hard pressed to actually kill with her D-smash. It's just not quite strong enough, and Zelda is rather poor at dealing damage and scoring consecutive hits.

I'm pretty sure good spacing avoids her D-tilt consistently anyway.

G&W can't escape the F-tilt juggles with Up-B, but he does escape the Up-smash follow up reliably from what I've seen.

Also, you can't duck under needles consistently. I don't know why.

 

[Tidycats29]

The only moves I get killed by in this matchup are like random aerials at a really high percent. You can't land U-smash out of shield, and the only time G&W should really be going in the air is to actually punish Yoshi while he whiffed something. Yoshi's Up-smash is too slow otheriwse to hit a G&W 99.9999% of the time before he Up-Bs away. Down-B is DIable and can be air dodged.

If you're getting so desperate to score a revenge KO, he can edgecamp and it's essentially 100% safe.

Dashing shieldgrab and Up-throw -> juggles and potential U-smash or F-air setups. It's not flashy, but it is effective.

we dont shield
we side dodge

80% of the time we wont even try to approach you

we just wait for you too approach and pivot grab or just throw eggs
and a ground yoshi bomb cannot be DId if caught in it
a running upsmash kills spacing thats the point
we dont just up smash for the hell of it

yeah you go ahead and edgecamp while we just spam eggs at you

you know maybe we getting ahead of ourselves here

if you want pm me and we can test the match up
yeah online
it sucks but atleast we can point out wat works and wat not better


im sorry if im interrupting your discussion with zelda guys

 

[A2ZOMG]

we dont shield
we side dodge

Doesn't matter. You can't land an Up-smash on G&W who spaces.

80% of the time we wont even try to approach you

Right. You have no legit setups into kill moves.

we just wait for you too approach and pivot grab or just throw eggs

Won't kill. Horray.

and a ground yoshi bomb cannot be DId if caught in it

Doesn't matter, it won't land cause you can escape it easily.

a running upsmash kills spacing thats the point
we dont just up smash for the hell of it

It doesn't kill his spacing. Instead he'll shieldcamp and the only thing you can do is attempt a grab.

yeah you go ahead and edgecamp while we just spam eggs at you

Up-B > eggs


I'll be on tonight. I like to IM people to arrange these things.

 

[Tidycats29]

judging from those matches

i think it is 6:4

i know the nair worked well
and the Upsmash did the job

yoshi's jab is great up close

and the egg camping did the damage i needed too

pivot grabbing did the job i wanted to

yoshibomb didnt kill ya early like i thought it would do
guess i need wrap you up for it to kill early
and that is hard to do against G&W

ggs

 

[Blistering Speed]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=214754

This is a topic made literally a couple day's ago where someone was having trouble with G&W and everyone basically outlined our gameplan against G&W. It's an actual intelligent thread, rare on the Shiek boards.

Most important points:
- If someone learns perfect chain usage, this matchup is going to get ALOT harder for you guys. G&W cannot get through the chain from the side or the top. He can bacon it, but Shiek can withdraw the chain and shield in that time, but this shouldn't be factored at the moment because no one can use the chain that consistently well.
- Needles are one of the only projectiles that G&W doesn't have a special answer to (D Tilt doesn't clank, can't be bucketed and you can't SH over them).
- Tipper U Smash kills without DI at 73%. F Tilt, when fully decayed, can combo into this for the kill. This is mitigated by the fact G&W kills early as well. Or since you're aerial very often, a tipper DACUS is possible.
- G&W is still dominant in the air, however Shiek's quick attack speed means she can intercept you with a quick SH F Air or N Air. That's it though, G&W's clutch priority and range will of course beat out Shiek otherwise in the air.
- Shiek can stop the turtle, either with run away needles or you can also jab out of it between the last and second last hit.

The thread goes into much more detail, they're just a few gimmicks of the matchup I picked out. I believe the general consensus (which I agree with) is 60:40 to G&W against solo Shiek (Also considered the best option). G&W is still G&W, his huge priority and strong approach still give Shiek the trouble they give most characters.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Can someone please explain how does the turtle works please? I need to see if something works >_>

 

[-Mars-]

@OBM Yeah, Zelda has D-tilt lock on anyone, but she'll be really hard pressed to actually kill with her D-smash. It's just not quite strong enough, and Zelda is rather poor at dealing damage and scoring consecutive hits.

I'm pretty sure good spacing avoids her D-tilt consistently anyway.

First off, G&W ***** Zelda...it's her hardest matchup in the game.

But her dsmash is insanely powerful for how fast it is. On the second lightest character in the game, I can see it killing as early as 95% by the edge on G&W.

It is very hard for her to land a dtilt against G&W. It is possible for her to land a bair OoS if he misspaces a bair though.

 

[Tero.]

GaW destroys Zelda. Sheik however does fairly good, but G&W just has better range/priority/air game/etc. so the MU is still in G&W favor.

positive in mu for sheik:
- she can kill GW at pretty good % because gw is gw lol ... we all know that.
- needles are pretty good in this MU
- someone mentioned it before: DACUS works good because gw is in the air pretty often (even more if you spam needles)
- chain is good but i dont actually play sheik so i cant tell much about that
- you'll be fine if you play defensiv, so dont rush in

positive in mu for gaw:
- superior priority and range (like always lol)
- sheik cant really eg you (beside needles)
- sheik is not that good when she is above you (her dair is crap lol)
- oh and sheik cant release into dacus

60:40 in favor of G&W if they only play sheik, even more of they play zelda

 

[Zankoku]

Whaddya know, a matchup I completely guessed a number on like a whole month ago and everyone agrees with me already.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Whaddya know, a matchup I completely guessed a number on like a whole month ago and everyone agrees with me already.

It's because your name is red and you're a good guesser.

 

[K 2]

Shiek does to better against G&W than Zelda, but Shiek is really easy to edgeguard. Shiek's recovery is subpar since it doesn't even knock your opponent off the ledge.

Just curious, what percent does the initial hit of Shieks up b (vanish?) kill G&W?

 

[Rawr_]

depends on DI and location on the screen, could be anywhere between 100 and 200%

 

[Zankoku]

Most likely around 120% before the hit.

 

[Tezmata]

The Zelda/G&W matchup doesn't even really exist because all sane Zelda mains will either counterpick or switch to Sheik.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Mr. Game & Watch always ducks under a single grounded needle from Sheik though he's inconsistent about her charging a bunch at once. The way Sheik angles needles downward in the air means they are generally pretty easy to jump over. That is to say that the fact that she can't do something like short hop needle to make it hit higher like Falco can with his laser makes the area it threatens vertically pretty thin.

Sheik won't be jabbing you out of the turtle. Her jab has way less range than the turtle and can't be used in the air or out of shield. Sheik doesn't have any particularly good answers to the turtle since it beats out all of her "a" moves while outranging Vanish, outspeeding the chain, and being an aerial that can be used over a needle.

Sheik has a terrible down aerial that doesn't really protect her from the up aerial or the fishbowl, and she doesn't have anything else in her moveset that really makes up for that. That's really a very bad attribute.

Sheik's up smash and Vanish are both very hard to hit with since the Mr. Game & Watch player should be playing toward his range advantage in this matchup, and those two moves are only dangerous close to Sheik. I'm pretty sure DACUS just loses to the turtle (and probably the forward aerial and dtilt too); Sheik can run into a wall of hitboxes if she really wants to. Sheik definitely will be killing pretty high in this matchup (like she does in all of them in which she doesn't hit down + B?). Being light doesn't really matter very much; the fact that his up special lets him escape bad situations and that he doesn't have to endanger himself very much to attack makes him pretty survivable regardless. The fact that Sheik only has two moves that kill at reasonable percentages while Mr. Game & Watch has four that kill even lower helps here (that's not counting Judgment Hammer or Oil Panic).

I think his size, weight, and average fall acceleration make him above average at escaping ftilt nonsense too. I think the solution is SDI away and mashing up special when you think you're out.

Sheik's Vanish kills at 114% from the center of Final Destination with no DI. As I actually look at it, the range isn't completely awful (though the start up isn't as good as you would think). It's probably the real move to watch out for in this matchup.

I'm not sure I want to give a number, but Sheik is really not very dangerous to Mr. Game & Watch either. She's only dangerous in comparison to Zelda...

 

[M@v]

I would definitely use sheik for this, not zelda. Zelda gets completely owned here....

Sheik-needles cant be absorbed by bucket, so expect lots of needles. Sheik might try using the chain to ward off some attacks. I would expect a "hit and run" style, considering the overwhelming power of the turtle.

 

[FrozenHarpie]

There's nothing Zelda can do about G&W. When he sees a Din's Fireball, he gets a stick and a marshmallow.

Now I don't play Sheik that well, but IMO her saving grace against him is chain control, but he WILL get out...so yeah.


G&W is the ONLY reason I bothered to learn Diddy.

 

[animeblitzballa33]

If GaW gets trapped in sheiks tilt lock, you can simply use up b to get out of it. Most other characters have to DI towards her and footstool her to get out. But GaW doesnt have to bother with that, just instantly use up b.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'm kinda busy to post much now.... but G&W is hard. he's got at least a 60:40 on zelda. we have him officially marked as a 70:30, though 65:35 might be a bit more accurate. regardless, he's got the advantage and he's tough, but he doesn't completely shut us down.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The only thing Zelda can hope for is maybe D-tilt out of shield tricks on G&W, which are EXTREMELY unreliable against G&W's B-air. She can't directly compete with G&W blow for blow on either the air or ground except with U-air, U-smash, and F-smash, which shouldn't land easily at all in this matchup.

She possesses ZERO direct threat on G&W. ZERO. Her approach is one of, if not the worst in the game. And Din's Fire doesn't threaten G&W at all, and she more likely gets punished for using it in this matchup.

 

[cutter]

Ok I definately played a good Sheik in the grand finals of a tourney I went to this past weekend. I managed to win the set 3-1 and all 4 games were pretty close matches.

I can't write a detailed summary since I have to go to class in like 10 minutes, but both my opponent and I agree the matchup is 6/4 GW's favor; no more, no less.

EDIT: OBM when you do another update, I think Peach would be good choice next since she has surged dramatically in tournament play.

 

[The Milk Monster]

Game and Watch's FAir pretty much outranges anything she has, and NAir basically puts a shield around him, shutting down her approach even more. Her DTilt could be a nice set up trip to FSmash, Over Tilt, or UTilt. Due to his up b rocking, he can avoid her UAir fairly easy and react quickly, and if she tries to recover high with her UpB, he can abuse her helpless animation with his UAir, setting up for that USmash of his.

I don't know much about the Sheik match up at all.

 

[animeblitzballa33]

Actually a few of her moves do go through GaWs up air. I know for sure her up air does, and her sex kick. So if above her doing nair, watch out for that.
Also her up b can kill pretty good. It comes out pretty un expectedly. Even in the air, a killed player will try to catch you off guard with it.

 

[The Milk Monster]

Actually a few of her moves do go through GaWs up air. I know for sure her up air does, and her sex kick. So if above her doing nair, watch out for that.
Also her up b can kill pretty good. It comes out pretty un expectedly. Even in the air, a killed player will try to catch you off guard with it.

lol, I never said her moves didn't go through his up air. But why would you be doing up air when she's doing up air? Most the time you can predict Zelda's recovery pretty well, and react accordingly.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Sheik has an easier time with game and watch than zelda. that is true. Zelda goes probably 35:65-30:70 against game and watch, whereas sheik probably goes 40:60-65:35.

The best option is normally to go almost straight sheik and use zelda for KOs when needed or to refresh sheik's moveset, but to stay sheik 90% of the battle at least. used like that, zelda/sheik can mediate her disadvantage to being probably only 60:40. regardless, game and watch is our WORST matchup. no other character in the game maintains a 60:40 advantage against us no matter what combination of zelda, sheik or both that we use.

 

[Zankoku]

I'd like to argue that since Meta Knight weighs more but is just as hard to get through his range and recovery, the only thing that causes MK to be rated lower is the fact that far more mediocre players select him over G&W.

 

[The Milk Monster]

I would imagine Sheik has an easier time, better approach, needles to stun(also un-bucketable), though both of their difficulty killing(Zelda's being her reliable's are hard to land in the middle of battle, Sheik just having a hard time killing in general), it seems like she wouldn't have much of an advantage, if any.

 

[Tero.]

Guys stop repeating things over and over again.
Thanks.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'd like to argue that since Meta Knight weighs more but is just as hard to get through his range and recovery, the only thing that causes MK to be rated lower is the fact that far more mediocre players select him over G&W.

he doesn't kill as easily though, and zelda does better against him than she does against game and watch. it's a lot harder for him to break through her defenses.

 

[Zankoku]

I'd like to argue more about that but I'd hate to be derailing the topic.

That said it seems everyone agrees that G&W pretty much hard-counters Zelda and has an advantage on Sheik.

 

[Kataefi]

Meta knight is not her worst matchup - that title belongs to game and watch and olimar, sadly =( She has nothing on him and rightfully deserves the 70:30 ratio, but thank god she can down b counterpick even though sheik doesn't do as well.

We're currently looking at ways to get passed his amazing aerials, because truthfully they both kill each other very well. We're thinking a well timed quick din's could be the answer, but it needs more research.

Also... that turtle is really interesting - I undertand it has many hitboxes, but can it be shielded and spotdodged after to some form of punishment?

Let me know ^^ thanks!

 

[The Milk Monster]

Meta knight is not her worst matchup - that title belongs to game and watch and olimar, sadly =( She has nothing on him and rightfully deserves the 70:30 ratio, but thank god she can down b counterpick even though sheik doesn't do as well.

We're currently looking at ways to get passed his amazing aerials, because truthfully they both kill each other very well. We're thinking a well timed quick din's could be the answer, but it needs more research.

Also... that turtle is really interesting - I undertand it has many hitboxes, but can it be shielded and spotdodged after to some form of punishment?

Let me know ^^ thanks!

A spotdodge could be a possibility if it misses you at first, and you spot dodge the end of it, but from start to finish, no it'll hit you in some way.
And a shield, a good 60%+ of the time it'll poke through shields, if not, there'll be some shield stun to where it's hard to punish a G&W fresh out of the turtle.

 

[Brinzy]

Why would we even play this fight?

70:30 G&W, move on.

 

[Tero.]

A spotdodge could be a possibility if it misses you at first, and you spot dodge the end of it, but from start to finish, no it'll hit you in some way.
And a shield, a good 60%+ of the time it'll poke through shields, if not, there'll be some shield stun to where it's hard to punish a G&W fresh out of the turtle.

You can spotdodge before the last hit.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I think game and watch has some really interesting hitboxes that are hard to get around, but I'm convinced that, with some work, we can learn ways around them. Granted, it'd only be the difference between 70:30 and 65:35 probably, but every little bit helps.

is there anything about zelda that gives game and watch trouble?

 

[Brinzy]

Killing power, good range... uh...

 

[The Milk Monster]

I think game and watch has some really interesting hitboxes that are hard to get around, but I'm convinced that, with some work, we can learn ways around them. Granted, it'd only be the difference between 70:30 and 65:35 probably, but every little bit helps.

is there anything about zelda that gives game and watch trouble?

I would have to say for sure his light weight with her killing power.
Those up tilts can fly out of nowhere!

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I would have to say for sure his light weight with her killing power.
Those up tilts can fly out of nowhere!

well out of somewhere

if you get too close to us between about 85 and 110 damage, we can Dtilt you into uptilt. at slightly higher damages it combos into Usmash instead. and lower damages combo into Dsmash or Fsmash.