Game & Watch Match-up Export Thread Directory

[Looticforgothispassword]

You may want to take a look at this: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=169446

Yeah...

I lurk all character boards regularly especially, high and top tier characters, so I have seen it, and knows that links projectiles can be nullified, a good link knows how to make the spam rate higher by alternate the diffrent projectiles and I know how easy it is to get through a spam when you are ready for it, plays a spamming pit pretty often. Bombs goes through most of your defences if used correctly, yes you can catch the bombs, but all characters can and bombs should be thrown so that they hit the ground just in front of you(not saying that the bombs always is thrown that way). As I said Link can spam gaw cannot and that is what matters, cause the one that spams forces the other character to approach and in this campy game approaching is a bad thing. gaw is a good approacher though so thats not a big problem for you. we cant outspam you like a bowser. But the projectiles will still do their job and you will screw up, you are not perfect, nobody is. so the spam part of the matchup is in links favor.

And a good DIing link should NOT be gimped very often, if the link uses zair recovery which is kind of hard at higher percentages but fairly easy at lower, that means we should not be gimped to often. This works against your dsmash(when it hits in that semispike trajectory). you will gimp us, thats true, but its not going to be like "OMFG Link *poke**gimpkill*, fwahahaha". Links recovery has no room for errors, but he can recover from most(probably all) things if he chooses the correct way to recover( which can be hard sometimes), the link player will screw up and that is when you gimp us.

And as I said a good(or smart is probably the word) link will pull a bomb and throw a rang upon recovery to make it harder for you to edgeguard him. The pulled bomb is saved in case you hit us, so we hopefully can make a bombjump.

Link has a crappy recovery(I cant deny it, that would be foolish) but it has a lot of options and with proper DI we should be able to survive well enough to dont make us loose this match way to easy(its not that bad that the matchup becomes 70/30 or more in gaws favor).

Im pretty sure its a very even matchup where the stage is what matters for in which favor it is. IMO the matchup is determined on how good the link is at recovering.

(watch this http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=V0u3sUOShcI at 4:40 to understand what zair recovery is, the vid is showing links most common ATs, most links dont use all of them though. Actually I think its maybe only Legan and Izaw that uses nearly all of links ATs).

P.S
Arkive is awesome at DI(probably one of the best), so if he says he can DI out of your attacks so that it becomes in his favor its true 11 out of 10 times.

 

[Ruuku]

I lurk all character boards regularly especially, high and top tier characters, so I have seen it, and knows that links projectiles can be nullified, a good link knows how to make the spam rate higher by alternate the diffrent projectiles and I know how easy it is to get through a spam when you are ready for it, plays a spamming pit pretty often

Using player skill as an argument is somewhat of a moot point in match up discussion.

Bombs goes through most of your defences if used correctly, yes you can catch the bombs, but all characters can and bombs should be thrown so that they hit the ground just in front of you(not saying that the bombs always is thrown that way).

The fact that you chose to focus only on bombs going through most of GaW's defenses, tells me that you have an understanding that GaW's defenses are significant against Link. If my understanding is correct, according to your point, this means that GaW will have to be mostly careful about not being hit by bombs and not much else.

As I said Link can spam gaw cannot and that is what matters, cause the one that spams forces the other character to approach and in this campy game approaching is a bad thing. gaw is a good approacher though so thats not a big problem for you.

So basically you're saying that Link can "spam" yet it isn't a problem for GaW..

we cant outspam you like a bowser. But the projectiles will still do their job and you will screw up, you are not perfect, nobody is.

Using your logic, this also means that the Link player will also screw up since nobody is perfect. However, whether someone plays perfectly or not is yet another obsolete argument when it comes to match up discussions.

so the spam part of the matchup is in links favor.

I do agree that the "spam" part of the match up is in Link's favor. But I have to say that it isn't due to anything is your last posts. There is to much contradiction.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Hey srsly, Link sucks against G&W.

He can't kill for ****, so that sucks a lot. And G&W mows him down once he gets a hit in. It might be hard to believe it, but G&W happens to be REALLY good at gimping Link. I mean way better than most characters at gimping Link who don't have much trouble gimping Link in the first place. It's much harder for Link to work around G&W's edgeguarding than it is for him to work around the edgeguarding of other characters because G&W has a lot of lingering hitboxes at his disposal. If G&W gets a weak hit from a F-air offstage, Link is probably dead either from that, or from a resulting follow up after that (which will happen since the weak hit of the F-air will put Link in a disadvantaged position). If you tether at the ledge, keep in mind G&W's D-air edgeguard can hit you out of that, not to mention deny your Up-B from the ledge.

Basically, for Link to win this matchup, he can't make a mistake. And not making a mistake is very difficult when you're going against a character who has very powerful approaches and punish techniques. Z-air DOES NOT shut down G&W's approach by the way. G&W can either duck under it or jump out of shield to punish appropriately. If the Z-air doesn't hit G&W while he's crouching, he can D-tilt Link, which at mid to high percents can be very deadly if it gets Link offstage.

Unlike Ganondorf, Link doesn't kill very easily on most attacks. He doesn't have any easy combos on G&W that deal 1/3 of G&W's stock in damage. All he has is stage control that he can't afford to mess up, and once he's offstage, if the G&W is any good, Link's not supposed to make it back (while Ganondorf on the other hand can make it back some of the time).

I've never tried down-throwing Link. I know his standard rolls suck, but what about his techrolls?

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

so this is what you get when you are unbiased?

 

[DMG]

U want an unbiased answer? I'll give it to you.

65:35 G&W at his very best, 55:45 G&W at his very worst.

Link is one of the easier characters to gimp/edgeguard. G&W can just use one jump, Upb, do an aerial afterwards, DJ and do another aerial, and make his way back to the stage. Obviously nothing is guaranteed, but Link is gonna have a lot to worry about once he gets offstage.

Link has some range over G&W, but not the speed to abuse it. He will have a hard time getting G&W into any sort of combo when he can simply just Upb away and since he has a lot of range to stop you from getting to him in the first place. Camping is also somewhat hard since G&W is pretty mobile and can Upb through anything if he needs to.

Killing is gonna be Link's biggest problem IMO, not saying that he lacks KO power but he does lack good setups for it, and it doesn't help him either that the first swing of Fsmash pushes people back too far for the second swing to hit (otherwise his Fsmash would be a beast at killing). Link also has a lot of commitment on most of his kill moves unfortunately, leaving him open if he misses.

What Link does have though are a nice Zair, comparable range on some of his moves, good damage on his attacks, and he is one of the few characters that can camp G&W without worrying about his bucket. However, when you look at the broader spectrum, and see that G&W has a better recovery, kills better, is faster overall, and has better approaches, then it starts to look a bit sided towards G&W.

 

[omegablackmage]

i still am inclined to think its a 60/40 match for gw. I would compare this matchup to ganondorf in a sense.

Ganon is really good at killing, link is pretty good - lacks a bit here but still good (dairs,dsmashes,fsmashes,upair)

They're both pretty heavy character, with equally bad recoveries

Link has much better approach options, with projectiles and the zair. Ganons isn't bad either, a bit worse obviously.

In a sense they seem pretty similar with some good areas for each and some a bit worse. 60/40 makes the most sense.

 

[sasook]

Actually I think its maybe only Legan and Izaw that uses nearly all of links ATs).

And me, my Link's highly technical. But I'm not on their level, so meh.

The fact that you chose to focus only on bombs going through most of GaW's defenses, tells me that you have an understanding that GaW's defenses are significant against Link. If my understanding is correct, according to your point, this means that GaW will have to be mostly careful about not being hit by bombs and not much else.

Well from what I know from personal experiences involving ALL matchups, not just this one, Link's spam game revolves around his bombs. Arrows are thrown in usually to mix things up and sometimes hinder approaches, and the boomerang is more of a spacing tool than anything else. Really, it is.

No one's mentioned Link's AT's yet? I'm surprised.

DAC
bombslides
Arrow cancels
Bombzair
Bombsmashes
craq walk
pivot boost
double/triple arrow
bomb DAC
jab canceling
jab locks (ok yeah, this one was mentioned)
boomerang canceling (never actually seen it used though)
ZAC
zair edgeguard (probably useless for this matchup)
gale guarding (again, probably useless for this matchup)

Those are the ones that come to mind off the top of my head.

Also, we already know Link can be gimped very easily. Stop brooding on that one point please, I think EVERYONE here agrees Link can be gimped very easily. So let's move on and discuss the rest of the matchup, hmm? Like, some onstage stuff - that's what I'm curious about, because I'd really like to learn this matchup.

Ganon is really good at killing, link is pretty good - lacks a bit here but still good (dairs,dsmashes,fsmashes,upair).

You forgot his ftilt, one of his best, if not THE best, KO move he has.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

thank you sasook you nailed it, its links ATs that these guys are forgetting.

But you forgot the recovery ATs
bombjump and zair whiplash recovery, both should work wonders in this matchup

U want an unbiased answer? I'll give it to you.

65:35 G&W at his very best, 55:45 G&W at his very worst.

Link is one of the easier characters to gimp/edgeguard. G&W can just use one jump, Upb, do an aerial afterwards, DJ and do another aerial, and make his way back to the stage. Obviously nothing is guaranteed, but Link is gonna have a lot to worry about once he gets offstage.

this is were I agree the least, link can DI so he never ends up the edgeguard situation (ask deva how he wins against top meta knights and earns his cash)+ dsmash is fairly easy to use zair whiplash recovery against at lower percentages. If link has a bomb in hand before you hit him offstage he can bombjump. Otherwise link will pull out a bomb and throw a rang while recovering so that you 1.mess up 2.if you no mess up link will probably be able to bombjump. yes there will be some gimps, but its not like gaw will gimp link all three stocks in every match.

Link need to know his ATs though or else he is ****ed

Link has some range over G&W, but not the speed to abuse it. He will have a hard time getting G&W into any sort of combo when he can simply just Upb away and since he has a lot of range to stop you from getting to him in the first place. Camping is also somewhat hard since G&W is pretty mobile and can Upb through anything if he needs to.

I agree somewhat, cause I saw a thread in the tactical boards about link being a ground based character only, link is slow if he dont use his aearials, but as soon he does, he becomes fast. much faster than the ones people often tend to compare him with like ganon, maybe not one of the fatest but certainly not slow. link has 4 autocanceling aerials and uair autocancels if FJ:d. link has one of the best craq walks in the game, which means he can make very fast follow ups after his aerials(reversed nairs or bairs), he can Arrow cancel his bair, double jump out of a bair throw rang and Arrow cancel. links groundgame is smashes and jabs otherwise and fsmash is quick in start and usmash and dsmash is even faster att there start up. dtilt sucks, ftilt is only a kill move and utilt is only for killing and low percentage juggling. Link can combo quite well.

Link need to know ATs

EDIT: missed the camping part, how to gaw Up B through links spam? just curios, this is something new to me. if it is that he gets above links spam then I have to say no, bombs are thrown pretty high(and with bombslide link gets under gaw pretty fast), rang can be angeled up, and link could just start a juggle instead which forces gaw to go away from link and reset the camo situation.

Killing is gonna be Link's biggest problem IMO, not saying that he lacks KO power but he does lack good setups for it, and it doesn't help him either that the first swing of Fsmash pushes people back too far for the second swing to hit (otherwise his Fsmash would be a beast at killing). Link also has a lot of commitment on most of his kill moves unfortunately, leaving him open if he misses.

bombslide fthrow > any kill move
jab cancel > dsmash/upB/utilt
oos usmash/upB
bomb throw(hit) > DAC
first fsmash is a killing move, also if it hit a sheild it pushes the opponent far away enough for second hit to be well spaced and in total it decreases the sheild quite much(and link cannot be sheildgrabbed), if spot dodged second hit will hit if swinged directly after, if well spaced a roll will set gaw up for second hit, if rolled out gaw escapes
bair FF(so only hits with first hit) > UpB
And some like to finish of with the ftilt after a nice(quick) pivot boost
if gaw on platform: fair, either gaw sheilds gets pushed of from fairs first hit and then second hit hits the falling gaw miles away. or gaw spot dodges to avoid first hit and gets hit by second.Or gaw rolls, rolling sucks on platforms and he gets hit by second hit. Or gaw SHADs... ehm ok then he goes free,
if gaw on platform FJ uair: same as fair mostly only diffrence is that SHAD is not safe but sheilding or attacking link of ten is
If gaw on platform utilt: my advice to you, dont sheild it, the link player will jab lock you if you do. spot dodge and SHAD works fine against it
grab uthrow kills gaw somewhere around 160% if it ever gets that far(it shouldnt ever)

but as you see the link needs to know his ATs to kill safely

What Link does have though are a nice Zair, comparable range on some of his moves, good damage on his attacks, and he is one of the few characters that can camp G&W without worrying about his bucket. However, when you look at the broader spectrum, and see that G&W has a better recovery, kills better, is faster overall, and has better approaches, then it starts to look a bit sided towards G&W.

dunno what to say here actually, I just think everything is very wrong, other than gaw gimps link easier than link gimps gaw and that link can camp gaw really well with his bombs(bombs is links main projectile, if you people actually had made some research on link you should know this). cant agree with faster overall, sure faster on the ground, but link has more autocanceling aerials(gaw has only his nair that autocancels, right?) and a craqwalk making him a faster. Link should not need to aproach in this matchup.

I got to say you are one of the better posters Ive seen posting about matchups, you just didnt know everything about link but you still tried to make good argument on why you thought gaw was better than link.

@A2ZOMG: you need to read some basics about link, your arguments dont make sense, all you say contradicts to what link mainers know about link. zair is safe, it doesnt matter what you do it is always safe when used defencively, even abusing SA frames can help characters get to link when he uses zair defencively(craqwalked), its only the fact that you are small that hinders us from **** you with zair. links fsmash >double fsmash(isnt even a combo its just a move)= 32% of damage add some jab cancels(14% more) and it becomes nice 46%. zair(safe move still) > bombthrow > DAC =37% of damage dsmash + galerang doublehit=43% of damage and then we have all the momentum combos a link can pull off with bair, rang, jabs, uair, utilt,

@ruuku: make some arguments instead of finding flaws in mine, I cant say everything so perfect that there is no flaws. screwing up when aproaching leads to link can continue the spam or start building pressure for comboing but screwing up while spamming leads to? well, tell me I dunno, that gaw gets closer? + bombs is links main projectile, shows your lack of knowledge about link. and there is no contradiction in my post, I basically said link can spam against gaw, forcing gaw to aproach, gaw is good at aproaching though, gaw will some times screw up and being damaged, but we cant spam foreverer like we can against some other characters.

 

[Khaos]

who is the best g&w counter? t

 

[Ritch]

To the guy who pulled out that vid betting fins, and anyone else

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi8L3f8yXBc&feature=channel_page

What I'm trying to say is Link has A chance, and not get ***** by the way you guys say he will.

It's 60/40 at least for G&W

 

[omegablackmage]

i love how each side of the argument keeps posting vids of their best player ****** some nobody lol.

from what i've seen im thinking 60/40. anyone arguing for more than that isnt' really considering links range or abilities with his projectiles, and anyone arguing for less is theory crafting way to hard saying that link's AT's make him top tier.

 

[omegablackmage]

Link: (60/40)

General Matchup:

• Link is one of the best projectile users in the game, coupled with good range, high weight, and decent kill options, you'll find him to be a pester.
• Links got a pretty good amount of range and priority on some moves you should look out for. Dair helps him fall faster and will certainly beat the nair, and will make the up air more difficult to use. Up air/upsmash/uptilt will beat the key. Fsmash and ftilt have a good amount of forward range to beat advancing approaches. Zair will outrange all of your moves if used side to side, and the bombs will cut through most of your attacks unless you space it just right. Bottom line, he can outspace you in a lot of situations.
• Links best ko moves are the dair, ftilt, fsmash, upair, and dsmash. These shouldn't have too much trouble killing you slightly after 100-110 area. Remember that it will be hard to out prioritize some of these moves.
• Link does have a poor recovery, this is no secret. They will likely toss boomerangs and pull bombs to aid them back to the stage. Use your fair to go through the boomerang, and try to hit the link with another fair, weak if possible. This will simply push them further out. Dairs will go through their grapple and up b attempts. Bacon might also be a decent idea to tie them up offstage.
• Links edgeguarding attempts will likely just be bombs thrown offstage, simply because they will want to avoid going offstage themselves. Up airs can push these out of the way.
• Link isn't really all that well known for his combo ability. Boosted upsmashes work well with some moves, and his projectiles can certainly be used with zairs to tie you up, but for the most part, he's a chip damage character.
• The dthrow won't work so well on link, his tech and buffered rolls are very good. Also if he misses the tech and buffers the roll, he gets out faster than the dsmash can hit him. Up throw are probably a better idea. Watch out for the dair, but if you can bait him into using it hit him from the side with nairs or turtles.

General Strategies:

• Make use of your dtilts, turtles, nairs, etc to cancel out the rangs and arrows. When he throws bombs, unless its from above, your better off getting out of the way, and if it is, up air them.
• Approach from a diagonal if possible, such as when facing zss. Their grapple will beat most of your sh approaches and your ground approaches. So full hop turtles or drop in with nairs. Link doesn't deal that well with close range pressure, and gw is very good at dealing it out.
• When edgeguarding, do your best to simply interrupt him. Because he falls fast and his up b doesn't cover much horizontal distance pushing him farther out helps.

Stages:

• RC, Frigate, japes, or any other stage with tough recovering.
• Avoid norfair for sure, and possibly even halberd/delphino/brinstar. Neutrals should be fine.

 

[Deleted member]

Yoshi is imo 4:6, G&Ws favor. Ill post more in a bit,

 

[sasook]

Dair helps him fall faster and will certainly beat the nair, and will make the up air more difficult to use.

G&W's uair pushes Link's dair up, no need to be worried about it. Also, Link players rarely use dair to begin with because it's so risky.

Links edgeguarding attempts will likely just be bombs thrown offstage, simply because they will want to avoid going offstage themselves.

I have to disagree here, bombs are usually never thrown as an edgeguarding tactic because it usually HELPS the opponent recover rather than harm. If anything is to be thrown offstage, it'll most likely be arrows.

Link isn't really all that well known for his combo ability. Boosted upsmashes work well with some moves, and his projectiles can certainly be used with zairs to tie you up, but for the most part, he's a chip damage character.

Being a close range Link player, I disagree with the first sentence, but agree that Link won't play close range in this matchup. I disagree with the first sentence because, without getting into details, Link actually has a lot of combo ability, just not in this matchup (G&W's aerials stop the combo ability). And DAC is overrated, or so a lot of us Link mains think anyway (it's very, VERY easily shieldgrabbed).

Stages:RC, Frigate, japes, or any other stage with tough recovering.

Actually, RC is one of Link's best stages, right after Norfair. You are absolutely correct about Frigate though.

Except for those points, your overall analysis was very well written. I commend you on it, it seemed mostly accurate.

 

[DMG]

EDIT: missed the camping part, how to gaw Up B through links spam? just curios, this is something new to me. if it is that he gets above links spam then I have to say no, bombs are thrown pretty high(and with bombslide link gets under gaw pretty fast), rang can be angeled up, and link could just start a juggle instead which forces gaw to go away from link and reset the camo situation.

G&W has Invincibility frames on his Upb, hence he can literally Upb through Link's Projectiles and not get hurt.

dunno what to say here actually, I just think everything is very wrong, other than gaw gimps link easier than link gimps gaw and that link can camp gaw really well with his bombs(bombs is links main projectile, if you people actually had made some research on link you should know this). cant agree with faster overall, sure faster on the ground, but link has more autocanceling aerials(gaw has only his nair that autocancels, right?) and a craqwalk making him a faster. Link should not need to aproach in this matchup.

G&W is faster frame wise; G&W's attacks usually come out faster than Link's attacks. Link can camp some but he's no Snake when it comes to camping.

I got to say you are one of the better posters Ive seen posting about matchups, you just didnt know everything about link but you still tried to make good argument on why you thought gaw was better than link.

Lol. I know a lot about most characters, I just made very general statements about the two characters to compare them and see who looked like they had the advantage. G&W is more powerful/edgeguards better, has a better recovery, and is a bit faster. Link has a bit more range generally, he can camp some, and he does kill G&W fast when his attacks do land. G&W is probably 60:40 with Link, trust me I am not underestimating link here, and I am not overestimating him either.


Oh well, the Link matchup is already done.


As for Yoshi, I would say 60:40 as well, maybe 65:35 if you are edgecamping hardcore when you get a lead.

 

[sasook]

Oh well, the Link matchup is already done

I just want those few points corrected and then I will leave you in peace. Besides those minor (well maybe not minor, stage selection is pretty major) things, it's very well written and you guys pretty much nailed it. Also, on behalf of the Link boards, I apologize if any of us seemed rude at any one given time. We're all a nice bunch ^^

 

[DMG]

I just want those few points corrected and then I will leave you in peace. Besides those minor (well maybe not minor, stage selection is pretty major) things, it's very well written and you guys pretty much nailed it. Also, on behalf of the Link boards, I apologize if any of us seemed rude at any one given time. We're all a nice bunch ^^

Lol it's fine, I just hate it when someone tells me I don't know what I am talking about in matchups. Cause I usually do.

 

[omegablackmage]

link might be good on RC, but gw is far better, its easily his best cp. No matter what you say, gw performs better there.

bombs offstage are going to be the only way to apply damage to gw off stage. his arrows can be cancelled with aerials quite easily whereas bombs cannot.

dair is only good if gw is really pestering you with up airs, dair does make you fall faster, which is your only help vs the up airs.


yoshi -

eggs obviously not bucketable, and can be a nuisance although countered by some aerials.

no release grab shenanigans as far as i know.

heavy character with some decent range in some areas. it seems like a 6/4 or a 65/35

 

[_clinton]

yoshi -

eggs obviously not bucketable, and can be a nuisance although countered by some aerials.

no release grab shenanigans as far as i know.

heavy character with some decent range in some areas. it seems like a 6/4 or a 65/35

I don't play as G&W...but...I know Yoshi well...
Mmac...I'd like to say that his yoshi is a purple demon monster yoshi...

20 frames of grab release actually...Yoshi's break is always air only no matter what you do...and with G&W it is a nice set up for Usmash...true combo is what I mean of course...G&W dies at 120% from what I can see if he gets grabbed...so...Yoshi can deal with one of his issues (killing)

Yoshi has good grabs btw...the pivot and the dash are both good...

Eggs blow up...just saying

I'll bring up kill range if you guys want...

 

[omegablackmage]

ah i wasn't aware if yoshi had any options as far as grab release, if that is the case then yeah its going to help him a lot in this matchup considering landing kills might not be so easy, whereas grabs would be much easier.

yoshi's dair go through gw's up b at the end?
what are yoshi's best stages?

 

[_clinton]

ah i wasn't aware if yoshi had any options as far as grab release, if that is the case then yeah its going to help him a lot in this matchup considering landing kills might not be so easy, whereas grabs would be much easier.

yoshi's dair go through gw's up b at the end?
what are yoshi's best stages?

I don't main Yoshi, I play him overall very limited and really only for fun...well actually I'm almost never serious because of my own lack of skill...but still...I know the overall mechs for this game at least...so when my natural suck skill isn't around for me...I can play fine at least ^_^ (yes I try to hard to be funny too much)

Do note that because of those 20 frames he has grab release combos...if you don't get out as fast as you can...you'll have about a total of 26% added to you at FD if he gets you from one end to the other when you have 0%...so make sure you put up a fight anyway when he grabs you...to avoid having stuff like that happening...you'll end up with damage but at least you'll not have as much as you could have had...still at the very least the grab release combo and Usmash seem to be all that Yoshi has over G&W (it isn't like Ganondorf in which he has a 0-death combo) so at least you don’t have a set up on Uair ^_^
I may be wrong though (lets see what another Yoshi that actually mains him says)

Talking of course about stages

The fact that certain stages like for example FD will allow Yoshi unlimited free range of all his ******* spam/grab release tricks might make you want to avoid it...still Usmash will hit through platforms like those on BF...so do note that 120% grab = death still on 1 block vertical platforms...

Anyway here are some kill ranges...it was done on FD, in training mode, with the AI on control, in the worse possible situation for landing the kill (and in some the best situation when I felt like it) and no DI...in the end G&W's ******* kill power for his smashes shows up well...but in Yoshi's case he does have a true set up at least...

Yoshi
Uair-107%
Usmash-112%
Fsmash-118%
Fair (-> non sweetspot)-139%

G&W
Usmash-82%
Fsmash-96%
Dsmash vertical spot-84%
Dsmash ->-81-169%
Fair-91-161%
Uair-149%
Dair-152%
Dair spike-168%

BTW, the fact that Yoshi can control the stage to a point, is actually very hard to edge guard really, and has true set ups also makes me feel that no way it is 6-4 G&W...

 

[A2ZOMG]

This matchup is seriously 75/25 G&W.

G&W shuts down Yoshi really hard with good spacing. It's nearly impossible for Yoshi to land a kill move on a G&W who plays conservatively (and it's not easy for him to grab G&W either since his shieldgrab is garbage, his pivot grab is good, but not amazing in this matchup and definitely something that G&W can work around). Offstage G&W raaaaaaaaaaaapes Yoshi's recovery.

The main thing Yoshi has is egg toss camping, but that only racks on damage. Yoshi doesn't have any safe or reliable way to do anything else to G&W, who can very well stay safe from any of Yoshi's other attacks if he's any good.

Yeah, sure, he can KO pretty well if you aren't familiar with the matchup and mess up big time and walk into an undiminished Smash or U-air, but he really can't set up any of those safely at all if you know what you're doing. N-air also beats his Down-B if I recall.

 

[_clinton]

I was looking into it more and it seems Yoshi's grab release won't follow up into another grab. Sorry about that...still the grab release to Usmash is still true from what I see, I just wouldn't say it is easy to land from that as well.

 

[omegablackmage]

another note, its probable that if you land on the platform after the release, you'd have time to up b since those 50 frames of inaction would get cut short. Thus its probably only possible to up smash in open areas, id have to test this though.

No yoshi mains care about the matchup discussion?

 

[Cubone]

Yoshi's u-air is the only notable kill move I see, and thats only when the super armor from his second jump is used. Otherwise all I see yoshi really doing to G&W is spamming eggs.

 

[Mmac]

I am here, I have been having a very busy week.

First of all, A2ZOMG, If anyone says that Anyone ***** Yoshi's Recovery without any given and/or legitimate statement as of why, is an instant Voided opinion in my book for ALL of your statements. From what I see, Game & Watch doesn't have much options to counter Yoshi's DJAD to actually gimp him. His fast movement speed and long lasting aerials will most likely catch him out of it, if G&W moves right, but will rarely Gimp him. It will either knock him upwards, toward the stage, or a light tap away which he can easily recover from.

Yoshi doesn't really have any Grab Release setup's on Game & Watch that are guaranteed, though he still have some decent Dthrow Tech Chases on him. Yoshi's doesn't have any setup's, but neither does Game & Watch in this matchup.

The funny thing is that Because of Yoshi's Shield mechanics, Game & Watch Bair is much less frightening than it used to be for us. Because it can't be Shield Poked, Yoshi will have a counter with almost any given move with a reasonable startup speed (Which means a free Grounded DownB, Yoshi's Fastest Killing move), which can be quite dangerous for you. Still annoying as hell though, especially as an aerial counter against us

The Matchup is still annoying as hell for us, because he just naturally has the upper hand. Just some of the things I wanted to mention. Burntsocks knows alot more on this matchup than I, so for now, I am just going to say this matchup is 35:65 G&W at the worst for us.

Also, Yoshi's Uair > G&W's Dair? Been mentioned quite a bit, but still don't know if it naturally does, if timed right.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Attacks that **** Yoshi's recovery:

Chef, F-air, B-air, D-air, D-tilt, yup. If the G&W is any good, Yoshi really can't do much to avoid those attacks.

Even better, G&W can just sit back and charge a Smash and if he has guts, he can wait for Yoshi to get close with any attack and then release the Smash, and it will kill you at about 70%.

G&W's B-air actually ***** Yoshi's shield a lot more than it ***** others. Yoshi can't really do anything out of shield that is guaranteed on G&W once he's B-airing Yoshi. This gets especially dangerous if G&W pushes Yoshi over the ledge. Yoshi not getting shield poked doesn't matter when G&W can put all the shield pressure he likes and not get punished.

Down-B is easily DIed and escaped if Yoshi ever lands the first hit. A good player WILL DI out of it, and I have always been able to escape it.

Yoshi's U-air DOES NOT beat G&W's D-air. That only happens if G&W spaces his D-air very badly.

 

[Shiri]

Also, Yoshi's Uair > G&W's Dair? Been mentioned quite a bit, but still don't know if it naturally does, if timed right.

It does.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yoshi's U-air DOES NOT beat G&W's D-air. That only happens if G&W spaces his D-air very badly.

Tooooo situational seriously. Yoshi's U-air is more telegraphed than G&W's D-air, and G&W's D-air by far is the safer attack.

Yoshi can't avoid G&W's edgeguarding if the G&W knows what he's doing, and G&W has many attacks that can gimp Yoshi easily. G&W also has safe kill moves that can plow though Yoshi's attacks and Yoshi has a ton of trouble landing any kill moves on a G&W that knows how to play defensively.

People seriously need to stop underrating G&W.

Matchup is no less than 75/25 G&W. The only time Yoshi should ever with this matchup is when the G&W is much less experienced in the matchup (which I will say isn't uncommon due to Yoshi not being a popular tournament character, and many G&W players get lazy). Otherwise, G&W has everything he needs to shut down Yoshi. The only remotely safe thing Yoshi can do in this matchup is camp eggs. Once G&W gets past it, Yoshi is at a severe disadvantage.

 

[Mmac]

Hmmm.... Let me see....

Chef - Completely ineffective, can just dodge through the entire swarm
Fair - Could catch with a staled if he stays on him
Bair - Same as Fair
Dair - Not a chance
Dtilt - Yes, Like Yoshi is completely going to jump straight into it.
Charged Smash - .... You don't even know what DJAD is, do you?

And Bair does not **** it more. You are forgetting that Bair has something called Landing Lag. Just because Yoshi takes *Gasp!* 4 frames to break out, does not mean he is completely helpless.

Also you can only escape DownB if Yoshi only clips you on the rising hit. If it's centred, it will most likely hit.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Chef stops you if you try to go for the ledge, then you get gimped.
F-air is very difficult to avoid and gimps you.
B-air is like F-air, except it pressures your midair jump better
D-air denies you from the ledge and stagespikes. You don't know how many times I've done this to Yoshis.
D-tilt is like Chef and D-air, in that it denies you from the ledge. This is the attack that also gets you offstage, and whether it results in a gimp or not, this is Yoshi's worst position by far, and G&W's best position to be in.
Charged Smashes will hit you out of any attack, so I don't care what other tricks you have. As long as I have good timing, you will get hit if you try to punish it or if you air dodge or spot dodge next to me.

You forget, G&W has this AT called "spacing". He can space himself outside of the range of Yoshi's "better" attacks and stay completely safe. Because Yoshi can't jump out of shield, he can't get in the range necessary to punish G&W with anything as long as G&W uses "spacing" like he should. His Smashes are also completely safe and unpunishable in this matchup keep in mind. If Yoshi is camping eggs a lot in this matchup, he's going to be near the ledge a lot where G&W's B-air is even safer to use once G&W gets past the camping. If Yoshi is approaching, he gets shut down by a B-air or D-tilt. In 99% of this matchup, Yoshi is in a disadvantaged position.

Yknow what, you can AIR DODGE out of Yoshi's Down-B. It's terrible.

Basically, this matchup comes down to the fact that Yoshi can't punish G&W as long as he has good spacing. A G&W with good spacing is by all practical means impossible for Yoshi to hit with any kill moves. G&W has easier to land kill moves that are safer and ones that KO earlier, and he ***** Yoshi offstage, while Yoshi can't touch G&W at all while G&W is edgecamping. This matchup has to be AT LEAST 75/25 in G&W's favor.

 

[K@0S]

Dair - Not a chance.

You've never faced a g&w with good edgeguarding if you think that

I have to agree with a2zomg on that part. Yoshi is too easy to edgeguard, the only problem is the sa frames on the second jump..

 

[Tero.]

lol i was going to write something about spacing but A2ZOMG is just too fast /o\

 

[Mmac]

In other words, you do not know what DJAD is, or encounter a Yoshi that actually uses it.

I am not denying that Game & Watch has a clear advantage, but he does not cripple him at all. It's especially hard to take you seriously when you don't even know what Yoshi's primary Recovery method is, or how it works. Good Yoshi's will not be so easy to gimp at all, and is the number one reason why I know you have never played one (Especially if they mention Armour. Armour is useless when recovering!).

You also act like Spacing is something completely unique to G&W. Yoshi can do the exact same thing with your approaches. Infact, careless Bair use, or any ground move used at the wrong time will most likely ended up being Dash Grabbed during the attack, if you give him room to work with. Plus you also forgetting about Yoshi's other moves such as Ftilt, Dair, and the common Jab. You are twisting my words around and saying that Yoshi will shield every move. There are only two reasons why Yoshi should shield in this matchup.

- To counter Bair
- To use the knockback of one of his Smash attacks to escape in a tight situation.

This is pretty much the only reasons why he need to shield in this matchup. G&W's Bair Will be punished from Yoshi's shield. Just because he can't jump out of it (Oh noes!) and takes slightly longer to break out (Super Oh Noes!), does not mean Yoshi can't do **** all from it.

Lastly, His Smashes are not so safe and unpunishable as you make it out to be. Use it at the wrong time, and it will almost always result it in being grabbed.

Oh, he can also use DJ Armour to counter attack Dair and Fair up to decent percents

 

[A2ZOMG]

The thing is you are sorely underrating G&W too. I have played some Yoshis who agree this is by far Yoshi's worst matchup.

If Yoshi does any attack, G&W can, and will shut it down with a B-air. Yoshi basically has no approaches in this matchup, and thus no real setups into any kill moves. G&W should probably survive to 170% each stock pretty easily both by playing safe and Bucket Braking if he gets hit by the odd aerial attack.

Yoshi's grabs are too slow to reliably punish anything G&W does, except for his pivot grab, which isn't even that hard for a competent player to avoid because of Yoshi's large frame.

When Yoshi is offstage, he will probably do some egg tosses first, and then double jump. You can hit him while he's doing egg tosses very easily, and the hitlag induced by attacks like Chef make him easier to intercept, and B-air can outlast your super armor pretty easily. Yoshi can also be Cypher grabbed while he's recovering. G&W is also able to U-air stall Yoshi after Yoshi does his midair jump and punish anything Yoshi does and then get an easy KO or get Yoshi offstage again, where the process starts over or where G&W scores a KO. You're crazy if you don't think Yoshi gets ***** by G&W once he goes offstage.

Again, this matchup can't be less than 75/25. A G&W that properly spaces can definitely NOT GET HIT in this matchup (by anything except Egg toss really, which doesn't do much). Yoshi takes huge risks in almost every other circumstance trying to land anything on G&W (as it almost invariably gets shut down by one of G&W's high priority attacks), he can't do anything to G&W offstage, and G&W can really capitalize on Yoshi once Yoshi goes offstage.

The matchup could be closer if Yoshi could reliably KO since the damage from Egg tossing would actually mean more, but he doesn't have any good KO moves, so sucks for him.

 

[TheUmbreonMonarchy]

The matchup would be better for Yoshi if he had better OOS options. Yoshi's shield does prevent poking, but it also prevents many of the OOS options other characters can achieve. In this game, good OOS options are always a big boost to have.

Yoshi's aerial game has no answer to G&W's aerial game (except D-air vs U-air, though I've only seen these two trade hits; never have I actually seen G&W D-air be completely beat by Yoshi's U-air). It just doesn't. In the matchup, Yoshi will have to rely on smart use of their aerial game, but will also have to rely of their ground game a bit more than most matchups Yoshi will encounter. Yoshi will also have to rely on smart Egg usage to win this matchup as well (how many moves does G&W have that beat Eggs?; I already know of D-tilt, but I'm not sure about the others). Most of G&W's ground game beats Yoshi's ground game as well, or at least clanks with it. G&W's aerial game game beats Yoshi's ground game. Yoshi's B-air has slightly more range than G&W's ground game, but it's still dangerous for Yoshi to use any of his air game on G&W.

Oh, properly spaced B-air/retreating B-air is impossible for Yoshi to punish, btw.

In this matchup, Yoshi has to: Learn the matchup, or Yoshi's ****ed. Has to use Eggs smartly, read the opponent very carefully and punish accordingly, and...that's all I can think of, honestly.

G&W has to: worry about Eggs, worry about improper spacing of the B-air, and learn to punish Yoshi's overall moveset.

Solid 70:30 G&W imo.

 

[A2ZOMG]

If Yoshi could Up-smash out of shield, I could see the matchup being 6/4 G&W.

But he can't...and nothing else that might work out of shield really threatens G&W at all, not accounting for the large number of times where he will land outside of the range from which anything can punish him.

 

[omegablackmage]

keep in mind that yoshi has really good air movement (best in the game?) and isn't going to have thaaat hard of a time simply moving out of the way with sh's

 

[Hylian]

I agree with Mmac on this one. AZ you keep saying rediculous stuff like Yoshi's uair being more telegraphed then GW's dair...really?

Yoshi can camp GW extremly well with eggs and pivot grabs. I would say 60-40 or 65-35 for GW.

 

[DMG]

I agree with Mmac on this one. AZ you keep saying rediculous stuff like Yoshi's uair being more telegraphed then GW's dair...really?

Yoshi can camp GW extremly well with eggs and pivot grabs. I would say 60-40 or 65-35 for GW.

65:35 if he edgecamps. That was my initial thought.