Game & Watch Match-up Export Thread Directory

[A2ZOMG]

Even so, you have Up-B or you can simply space a bit from the side...And U-air stall is really good on him too.

 

[omegablackmage]

ok so i moved the discussion from lucario to zss, most seem to agree that is a 60/40 gw.

i have a pretty good amount of zss experience, having played two of the best in nation in many tournament sets, so at some point i'll get around to posting my views on it.

 

[UTDZac]

I haven't played many ZSS. Here's the only video I've got of me playing against her on FD. It was annoying. I found I had to be really patient (which wasn't the case in the video, i tried but it didn't happen).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkSk19NbZ_w&fmt=18

 

[TheStig]

zss can be dificult to approach. also I try not to stay above her too much because she's got too many options and can juggle easily.

 

[AzNfinesse]

as long as u know what you're doing and know which attacks outrange/outprioritize hers, you shouldn't have any problems with this matchup. depending on the person using zss, you may wanna avoid her when she's on the ledge. i've seen many a zss do a 0-80 combo from recovering from an edge.

the items at the beginning of this match is the biggest pain of the matchup (more than likely a free stock for zss if the player knows what he's doing). do your best to get the items under your control, or throw them off the stage. once that's out of the way, the rest of the matchup is a breeze.

zss's aerials are fast, but have little priority over gnw. nair and well-spaced bairs are excellent in this matchup. NEVER approach her directly in front, behind, or above. always approach at an angle if possible. her fsmash, usmash, and sideb can be dangerous. however, you can also use that to your advantage, as these attacks have immense lag afterwards. you can bait her into using those attacks, then punishing her afterwards.

a lot of her kills happen while in the air. for the most part you should have the advantage in the air, just don't let her get her uairs, bairs, or fairs on you at high percentages. perfectly spaced bairs should negate that problem.

the main thing with this matchup is not letting her set up for her combos. the main one is her dsmash > uair. this is pretty simple to avoid. you have time to tell when she's about to do the dsmash, so either upb away from it...or if you're feeling gutsy, bucket it.

her neutral b > grab is also a painful combo to watch out for. don't fall for it. if you see her charging up her gun, run away. don't try and bucket it/shield it/spotdodge it. your best option is to avoid the shock completely, as this combo leads to a potential kill on gnw in the higher percentages.

when she's hanging from the ledge, don't fall fer her wall jump > downb > dair. just walk away and wait for the lag afterwards to punish. imo that's the best way to keep her edgeguarded, and it has been the most effective for me.

 

[ShadowPhoenix951]

Also, make sure that when you approach ZSS, you do not go straight at her, or directly above her. If you do that, she'll have a side-b/neutral-b/up-smash/up-b waiting. If you get caught in a one of these, you will eat some hefty damage.

 

[Gates]

Hey guys. In the Dedede matchup thread, our rediscussion this week is Mr. Game & Watch. Please feel free to contribute to the thread. Here is the link:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192600
Posting there would be preferable but posting here is ok too.

This is a matchup that the DDDBR has discussed a little bit and we feel that G&W has less of an advantage than previously thought. We'd like to hear what G&W mains think about this now that both character's metagames have advanced quite a bit.

Thanks!

 

[stealth3654]

Hey guys. In the Sheik match-up thread, our current discussion is also Mr. Game & Watch. Here is the link: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=226389. It would be awesome if you guys could contribute and post what you thing of the match-up.

Thanks

 

[Snakeee]

ZSS wins this match up probably 60/40...if not then it's 55/45

 

[omegablackmage]

hey guys, my internets been down, so its been tough for me to get on to update stuff. I'll move the discussion on but i don't have time to change anything right now.

 

[Super Mario MC]

Lol, nice list OBM. Very helpful for mostly all G&W players. Reading threw this and getting it down must be hard :/ I'm trying though :D

 

[Corimon]

He crushed Onski, Corimon, and a couple SoCal players I don't remember. But Lee Puff didn't come so

Though post this is incredibly old, I would like to note that I've never played Chip, though I've heard good things about his Toon Link.

 

[The Reverend 814]

Some zss players will try and spam dsmash on you when you are on the ledge. This is a nice set up for you to fast fall a Nair and pull them off the stage for a gimp. Also since zss has no great edge recoveries, spamming chef over the edge is an easy way to rack up damage, set up smashes, and overall frustrate the player into messing up. Never underestimate a good chef haha.

 

[Gates]

I used to have problems with Toon Link.

Then I stopped dairing into his usmash like a ******.

Now it's not that bad.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Toon Link...as far as I'm concerned...the main think about him is just consistently PSing his projectiles most matchups against him. That allows you to keep all your options open against him and nullify his stage control. It's not impossible to do anyway since they come out and move slow enough.

Of course KOing him is just as straightforward since his recovery isn't that good and fairly easy for G&W to capitalize on.

And never do this matchup on wifi. Ever.

 

[BBQ°]

I know we're not discussing ROB, but I'd like to say that after 2-3 months of G&W vs ROB, I think the matchup is even, perhaps in ROB's favor 55:45.

ROB's tilts just wreck G&W's approach. 'nuff said.

 

[pheX]

Toon Link...as far as I'm concerned...the main think about him is just consistently PSing his projectiles most matchups against him. That allows you to keep all your options open against him and nullify his stage control. It's not impossible to do anyway since they come out and move slow enough.

Of course KOing him is just as straightforward since his recovery isn't that good and fairly easy for G&W to capitalize on.

And never do this matchup on wifi. Ever.

True story. This Match up online ist hardly possible. GnW - Toon Link is the match up I hate the most. (well maybe with marth. Swords are lame lol) Because I cant powershield... I've just placed 17th at the largest german tournenment because I lost to a toon link. Its very tricky if you cant powershield. Toon links projectiles are slow, but if they are you used wisely you gotta hard time to approach. And even if you're able to approach you arent save yet. He might just use is bair to interrupt your approach oder use some of his tilts/smashes to annoy you. You cant just run to him. If you play on a map like FD or smashville where you can not juggle tink its extremely hard. Its difficult to get through the spam and then attack him without beeing predictable. I would have picked rainbow cruise but it was banned .___. he himself banned BF so I had to go with either piazza or smashville. Well I screw'd :D. I suppose I need to learn powershielding before i can really evaluate this match up but I'd say its about 55-45 (or 50-50) if you can powershield. .

 

[_clinton]

Hi G&W boards...if you want...please give your opinion on this thread idea I have that only lists the -s another character has over the other (However it doesn't talk about the +s Ness may have over the other one) and how they can overcome them if you want...thank you for your time...

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=229697

 

[A2ZOMG]

I know we're not discussing ROB, but I'd like to say that after 2-3 months of G&W vs ROB, I think the matchup is even, perhaps in ROB's favor 55:45.

ROB's tilts just wreck G&W's approach. 'nuff said.

ROB's tilts on G&W's shield are unsafe. If ROB F-tilt's G&W's shield, he has enough time to B-air out of shield and punish, and ROB really can't punish G&W nearly as easily for B-airing. Also, if G&W turtles early and ROB F-tilts, ROB eats the hit as he scrapes his hand.

So no, it's OBVIOUSLY in G&W's favor. I 2nd ROB, and I'm going to tell you now, this matchup is hell for ROB if the G&W isn't stupid. <_<

I honestly think G&W vs ROB is worse for ROB than Metaknight. Metaknight...at least you camp him without any real drawbacks and are one of few characters that has more range than he does, while he doesn't have as much in terms of lingering hitboxes.

 

[BBQ°]

ROB's tilts on G&W's shield are unsafe. If ROB F-tilt's G&W's shield, he has enough time to B-air out of shield and punish, and ROB really can't punish G&W nearly as easily for B-airing.

Why would ROB ftilt when G&W is shielding? ROB would only ftilt if G&W is approaching from the air or knows that it'll be safe when G&W is on the ground.

Also, if G&W turtles early and ROB F-tilts, ROB eats the hit as he scrapes his hand.

I don't understand what you mean by using his turtle early. Do you mean using his bair early in the match, when it is fresh? Or having different timing? I don't see how you can time the bair differently? The ROB player should be smart enough to know not to Ftilt against a "differently timed bair".


Sorry, everyone, for getting off subject.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Why would ROB ftilt when G&W is shielding? ROB would only ftilt if G&W is approaching from the air or knows that it'll be safe when G&W is on the ground.

Shield comes out frame 1 so whatever. It's possible to shield before his F-tilt hits you. Since I can jump out of shield, you'll be left guessing whether or not it's safe to attack or not if I shield near you, and if I get out a B-air, you're much more likely to get hit than the other way around.

I don't understand what you mean by using his turtle early. Do you mean using his bair early in the match, when it is fresh? Or having different timing? I don't see how you can time the bair differently? The ROB player should be smart enough to know not to Ftilt against a "differently timed bair".

If I get out B-air, it beats you out if you attack, and ROB's shield is bad, so he won't want to be repeatedly pummeled by that for long. If G&W is smart and doesn't mess up against ROB's camping, he can pressure ROB into a tough position as his approach DOES beat out ROB.

Basically, G&W outprioritizes ROB. A smart G&W shouldn't be bothered by ROB's camping too much, and it's very difficult for ROB to get out of G&W's pressure game once it starts. Once G&W gets in a hit, ROB is unfortunately a character that easily gets juggled to about 80% if the G&W is any good at reacting to air dodges. One Up-smash after that will kill him. And landing Up-smash against ROB is not hard at all.

Heck, if ROB gets hit by anything from G&W, it usually gets him punished severely. Even a simple Up-throw is incredibly difficult for ROB to deal with in this matchup.

TERRIBLE matchup for ROB. Oh, and I didn't mention that G&W is not easy for ROB to KO.

 

[pheX]

Good 2 see you guys talking about match ups. (I think we really should talk about the rob match up too but) Why does nobody say anything about the TL match up?

 

[Gates]

Toon Links are few and far between. It's very unlikely that a majority of G&W mains have experience with Toon Link.

 

[UTDZac]

Here's a wall of text from a discussion Santi and I had about the TL vs. G&W matchup. I asked him a few questions and here are his responses. My questions are in italics btw.

1) In your opinion, what is the general TL v GW matchup. What about for you personally? The boards say 6:4 in favor of G&W but I don't believe them.

I say it's very close. If anything.. slight advantage TL. The advantage goes to whoever knows the matchup better and IMO it's much easier for TL to learn GW then it is for GW to learn TL.

2) Was there anything obvious I was doing wrong while playing you in friendlies/tournament. I forgot to record the matches. That and I just had a real hard time figuring out how to kill you. Was it because you are so much better than me at surviving? Or was I missing something? I remember you telling me that your Zair stops all my smash attacks, not sure what to do about that...

There was not much you were doing wrong. You were camping and playing safe pretty well. Esecially on Lylat. My zair beats all your ground moves thats correct. SO I jump airdoge and bait any kind of smash attack. I'm hoping the GW tries to do a ground move for the kill. I cancel my airdodge with the Zair and it basically beats any ground move you have if i space it well. The zair can even beat the turtle if spaced perfectly. And if I zair your smash attack I don't even have to space it far away. I can zair close because I know you can't shield during a smash attack so I'm not worried about a shieldgrab So when I zair close I can hit a nair. Or even an Upsmash sometimes for the kill. It's kind of easier for TL to kill even though TL doesn't kill easy. lol. GW's main kill moves ofcourse are the smashes. Zair > GW smashes. and tl's love Zair :D oh and my uair beats your dair. So I sometimes make it seem like im vulnerable to get hit by your dair when you go high (whether it be from you UpBing out of shield or just hopping around_) and then I uair last second. So I think Tl is a hard character for GW to kill period. You just have to gimp when the oppurtunity arrives or fair off the egde when you can. Or just get an upsmash if the TL airdodges predictably.

3) I couldn't figure out how to approach with your projectile spam. The other G&Ws say once you get in, it's easy to fight. But you had a nice wall against me all the time. Are there certain patterns I can look for? Are there certain projectiles I can force my way through?

the best projectile IMO that is easiest to force through I think are the arrows. They are slow and they have the most land when you land o.0
Now GW is hard to do this though. His Dash is slow and his grab does not have range at all :/

When a MK learns when the quickdraws are coming... they dash in super quick before the arrow then perfect shield the arrow and grab.

TL has lag after a quickdraw after everything.
Nair into quickdraw... TL pulls back to create space after the nair and make room for his arrow... but if you can dash right after they nair your shield... you can make some pressure before they quickdraw.
If you time it right im not sure if you can get a grab... but maybe a fair out of shiel dwill reach TL.

When TL short hops and pulls out a bomb... we usually quickdraw before we touch the ground. This can be easier to close in on beecause you don't have to sit in your shield to guard against an aerial... you can just dash in right when you see them short hop and start to put their arm in their back to grab a bomb... now if we use our second jump before we touch the ground thats because we know you can punish our quickdrw... when we use this second jump we throw the bomb down and try to hit you attempting to grab us etc etc.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Offline, I have faced two Toon Links at different Tournies. Niether were very difficult at all, but it can't be said they weren't good. One of the two, I fought round one of Super Mass Bros and won on FD, lost on SV, and finished the set on Norfair. G&W didn't get brickwalled by his stuff, even though the starter was the infamous FD, and I felt pretty in control in all the matches. Ultimately at that tournament, I placed 17 out of 50 or 60, and when I checked, the same Toon Link I knocked out placed the same, coming from losers bracket. He also got like second or third in Doubles. Anyway, I considered him a good Toon Link, but the set we played felt in my favor.

I honestly still think it's 6:4, or less out there, 55:45 in our favor. G&W's edgeguarding is the main selling point. Toon Link forced off the stage or onto the ledge is going to eat some sort of attack typically, whether it's a Dtilt, a slowfalled Dair, or even a Bair dropped off. It wasn't hard to stay alive. It felt like playing Falco in the regards to them trying to kill you; It's quite usually their Usmash that you have to worry about, and if you can avoid that, they will have to get more percent to kill you with things like lol bair. I didn't particularly see an issue with killing, even if he tech rolled out of my tech chases.

But this is just me.
Eh.

 

[UTDZac]

Grr, I must be doing something wrong then. I'm just going to use my secondary from now on. It will be much easier.

 

[Neb]

I think its 55:45, G&W.

 

[omegablackmage]

the only toon link i've played is lobos, in pools at btyf. I beat him 2-0, but he had a pretty good toon link. I've heard good things about melito in NE, but i haven't had the chance to play him yet.

Are the good tl's basically: lobos, chip, lobos, jash, melito, quivo? those are the major ones i've heard of.

edit... lol at forgeting santi

 

[Gates]

they have the most land when you land o.0

lol wut?

Sup dawg, we heard yo like short hopping stuff so we put a platform on your platform so you can land while you land.

I think its 55:45, G&W.

Meh, I guess I can see that.

A lot of you say that G&W really has the advantage offstage here, which I think I'll look into. TBH, I know the Toon Link that I play really well and I know he likes to do nair crossups so I usually try to spotdodge whenever he goes in for a nair or bair and usmash or dsmash out of it. He used to zair a lot but he doesn't anymore, which I think is why he usually loses to my G&W and johns about overpowered smash attacks.

Are the good tl's basically: lobos, chip, lobos, jash, melito, quivo? those are the major ones i've heard of.

I hear there's these guys named Santi. He's Dojo's life teams partner, so idk, he might be good.

 

[Lobos]

the only toon link i've played is lobos, in pools at btyf. I beat him 2-0, but he had a pretty good toon link. I've heard good things about melito in NE, but i haven't had the chance to play him yet.

Are the good tl's basically: lobos, chip, lobos, jash, melito, quivo? those are the major ones i've heard of.

lol my name twice......play me again at apex!

also yeah you're missing a few more on that list

ask slikvik about how he uses wario against me LOL

I think this match is even tho OBM was the only g&w to beat in tourney as of right now.

 

[Noa.]

Have the Toon Links been invited to help out with our discussion yet? It's pretty important to get imput from the other side.

 

[pheX]

Every1 who says that this match up is in GnWs favor

should at least name 1 reason, besides gimping.
Very interested to hear about that...

 

[Gates]

TL is fairly light and thus easy to kill.
Aside from Zair and other projectiles, we can outrange most of his attacks with our bair.
Projectile spam is not that hard to get around.
If G&W gets in close and plays a punishment game he'll do pretty well.
G&W really just needs to keep putting pressure on TL to win.

 

[UTDZac]

I'd like to hear how TL is easy to kill.

 

[Gates]

Like I said before, wait for an opening and hit him with a smash when you can. It's largely on how well you can predict them, but he'll die from a smash at about 90% or less. You have to think ahead somewhat and know when your opponent will be vulnerable, but it's definitely doable.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

You kill Toon Link just like how you kill anyone.
By hitting them hard enough!

 

[A2ZOMG]

Toon Link sucks at KOs. All of his KO moves are pretty telegraphed, and his F-smash isn't even reliable if you manage to DI out of it. While Toon Link only has average safety on his KO moves, G&W has really fricken good safety on his KO moves.

And also being good at powershielding really doesn't get enough credit IMO. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-1M0ggQzdM

 

[Mr. Escalator]

That video was silly. Great powershielding, but the Toon Link was pretty bad. Ganon on the first stock (I assume its the same for the rest of the video) would always powershield into his tether grab range and he never tried it. Hell, he never followed up with his aerials well, and only knew how to just use arrows without being the least bit dynamic. He was outplayed.

 

[omegablackmage]

lol at me forgetting santi, i think the second lobos was supposed to be santi ha ha, but i dunno, lobos is too good.

 

[Furbs]

out of curiosity when are you guys going to rediscuss the yoshi matchup?