Fox Match-Up General Discussion

[§witch]

Jiovanni, you seem to think fox will illusion on to the stage alot lol, a smart fox won't be doing that alot...

 

[Fenrir VII]

It does matter that Kirby can duck under lasers, a lot. A Kirby won't particularly care if your moves are stale since usmash is gonna pwn anyway, fsmash will kill at above average percents, and bair can kill offstage assuming you can hit with it. Ducking forces Fox to approach, end of story. If at the start of the match Fox starts blastering and Kirby starts ducking, Fox would be called for stalling and Kirby would win anyway.

Usmash gains about 10% earlier killing power when not staled... just fyi
Bair can kill on stage at reasonably low %s, and you are forgetting about dsmash...Fox's second best killer.

Ducking lasers does not force Fox to approach. I really don't understand where you get this idea... It forces neither player to approach. It's simply a stale mate and a trial of patience.
You say stalling will be called on the Fox, but it could just as easily be called on kirby, so it has no relevance and will result in a stale mate...this is all assuming the Fox doesn't start ledge lasering just to hit you, but that's a bit dramatic. To say stalling will be called on the player who is actively trying to initiate confrontation instead of the player who is holding down to avoid the confrontation is ridiculous and not a worthy argument.

You misinterpreted what he said, usmash is the only reliable way to kill. It kills early, has a good slide distance, good range and good priority. As Gonzo previously stated, fsmash doesn't connect completely in most cases.

FALSE. "usmash is the only reliable way to kill" is a ridiculous claim, and you would be wise to revise that idea. "usmash is Fox's best way to kill" is a more correct statement, but if you believe usmash is the only kill move here, you are wrong.

I'm pretty sure on the grab release he meant grab you by the edge, pummel you til you release offstage then dair -> footstool you since Fox has no answer when recovering from below Kirby.

Yeah...and that doesn't work. next?

Then he can eat a fsmash or ground hammer to the face and still die. Kirbys not gonna drift all the way out to the edge having not connected with you already. His air movement isn't that bad and Fox does suffer from landing lag on the side b

If kirby leaves the stage in an attempt for a bair... at all... and misses the edgeguard, Fox gets back safely. The illusion can be canceled and will slide farther on the ground than kirby can chase... Every Fox who is worth anything can cancel consistently, so there goes your edgeguarding tactic. It comes down to a baiting game in this situation, but Kirby simply does not have the speed to cover the stage and the ledge game if the Fox recovers smartly...

Wut? You serious? Kirby definitely has one of the best grab ranges relative to size and is actually feared for his shield grab game. So what you can land behind him with aerials, Kirby can grab you before you get behind him from a SH and even faux SA through your attacks.

Uh...yeah, I know. his shield grab game is basically the staple of his higher level play. The last sentence there is wrong, though. Kirby canNOT land a grab before you get behind him on Fox's SH... That's simply not true...

His horizontal movement isn't slow, I'm tired of hearing this, its average. He's no Wario, but he's also no D3. Also Fox should be very scared of Kirby's wall of hammers and fairs while coming back to stage. Its also assumed that pros know how to DI so IIRC Fox's dsmash is the only move that could send Kirby at an angle to be affected by the shine or dair

the movement speed has already been accounted for (thanks, Marsulas).. .but I'll say this. if you hammer while recovering, it's a free aerial for Fox. The fair isn't quite so much, but still if you guess wrong and the Fox is on it, it's a free bair death. Also, I think you underestimate how often dsmash can connect... : / that's his best ledge setup.. it combos out of dair at 70-80%, so if you make one mistake around there, there's a dair dsmash edgeguard. It's really not that hard to land...and it is a great setup.

"Slightly in Kirby's favor" is a severe understatement and a disservice to the Fox community. Every Fox needs to be prepared for this match and not in the position to underestimate it. This is one match that you definitely need to counterpick on. Grab does 50% off the bat, fsmash kills from 70 and the hammer from less. The math is not in Fox's favor at all. 70-30 is a very fair assessment considering what you have to work against. Don't feel bad since Kirby players are gonna counterpick against Marth most of the time.

Psht... it's certainly not a CP match. if you honestly believe that, then you're mistaken. I said it's in kirby's favor, but it's not bad... it's really not.
fsmash kills from 70%? uh...no it doesn't. On the edge, maybe, but 70% fsmash on Fox barely goes the length of FD with no DI
from the center of FD, ground hammer starts killing near 75% before the hit unDIed. Air hammer (which is much more of a threat than ground hammer) is considerably more...over 100%
fsmash doesn't start until around 90% unDIed.

I understand that this is a horizontal killer and so you can't really put a definitive number on it... especially since different stages have different kill zones, and you will land hits from across the stage, but come on. Please don't come in here and spew stuff that isn't even true. You said my argument was a disservice to the Fox community... at least I speak stuff that is true, % based and such... Your exaggerations are the kinds of thing that make this type of debate unbearable as a Fox player. Please don't come back until you get your facts straight and can give data that isn't so easily debunked.

 

[Zhamy]

Your exaggerations are the kinds of thing that make this type of debate unbearable as a Fox player. Please don't come back until you get your facts straight and can give data that isn't so easily debunked.

QFT. The amount of ignorant arrogance is disgusting.

 

[Duo55]

Ok, I've got quite a bit of experience on this matchup so I know what I'm talking about when I say this match is a / McCloud 40/60 blob of chewed gum / The only thing that puts kirby ahead here is the throw combo. Other than that, its a tied game left to the skill of the player. Kirby able to gimp fox easily? Please... I was fighting chu dat, and not once did he gimp me. If your smart, kirby won't gimp you. Like I said before, other than the boost kirby gets from the throw combos, its really even. What hurts fox here is that kirby is a power house, and fox is light, but its the same way on the other side of the coin, kirby is also light, and easy to KO. Something else I found funny was that most kirby's think their safe off when coming back to the stage, thanks to hammer spam or w/e. I find that this is a good time to wrack damage up on him via fair (it works quite well on him) or if you think he might try a suction gimp, laser him as he falls. Dairs not to useful this match, but I'm not dair reliant anyway so thats not a problem. Make sure you mix up the approaches with lots of grabs, even if hes approaching, grab him. Kirbys like to dash cancel shield (not sure what its technical name is) when aprroaching so it will work for you as long as your NOT predictable. Try not to use your smashes alot here, they... don't work to well unless your going for the finish. Jab works decently well on kirby, but once again, don't get carried away, or its a Fsmash for you. I'd say to just start the jab combo then do the minimum amount of hits, and roll away. The roll can't be punished if the Jabs weren't shielded, if they were, jump away. Fair actually works well against air bourne kirby, abuse it. If hes Bair spamming to approach, laser and avoid. Use U-smash, Bair, Fair, and Uair to kill. Theres plenty more to cover about beating kirbys strategy. Perhaps Fenrir would like to take over?

 

[KheldarVII]

Good tip, don't stay close to the edge when fighting close quarters. It gives Kirby more of an advantage than you.

Besides, we all love the U-smash kill so always stay near the middle. I really hate that F-smash.

 

[ungulateman]

Kirbycide = win?

Seriously, Fox's Fsmash is nasty against Kirby when used properly. Plus, Kirby ducks slowly. Still, it's a close match.

 

[Storm_Fox]

F-Smash is pretty good for smash trapping in low percentages but not for killings like down and Up smash. Up smash I feel is probably better because down smash if it doesnt kill sends you in that nasty bottom corner that only a hand full of characters can get out of. The hammer also swings twice in mid air but only once on the ground just so u know

 

[TKD]

QFT. The amount of ignorant arrogance is disgusting.

Is that adressed to FenrirVII? He can say whatever he wants, because he's right.

The Fox vs Kirby odds are either 40/60 or 30/70. Neither character actually likes to approach on this one, and Kirby can avoid confrontation by ducking lasers and waiting to shield. Still, the Fox player can sneak an approach in, or keep stalling.

The problem comes at KO percentages. Fox has trouble KO'ing. You can fall into Kirby with an aerial, which can get shieldgrabbed unless you land it on his back. If you DON'T fall into him with an aerial, you can get fsmashed. So going with risk vs reward here, it's safer to attack or to try to fall into a safe spot, than to airdodge into the ground, but you have to watch out for his walking away into fsmash if you attack.

As for dashing into upsmash, won't work if he's on the ground, usually not if he's in the air, either (airdodge into the ground into a grab into you getting a headache).

I don't really know how bad this matchup is. It's always hard, but it sometimes feels like a 40/60, other times like a 30/70.

 

[Duo55]

Is that adressed to FenrirVII? He can say whatever he wants, because he's right.

The Fox vs Kirby odds are either 40/60 or 30/70. Neither character actually likes to approach on this one, and Kirby can avoid confrontation by ducking lasers and waiting to shield. Still, the Fox player can sneak an approach in, or keep stalling.

The problem comes at KO percentages. Fox has trouble KO'ing. You can fall into Kirby with an aerial, which can get shieldgrabbed unless you land it on his back. If you DON'T fall into him with an aerial, you can get fsmashed. So going with risk vs reward here, it's safer to attack or to try to fall into a safe spot, than to airdodge into the ground, but you have to watch out for his walking away into fsmash if you attack.

As for dashing into upsmash, won't work if he's on the ground, usually not if he's in the air, either (airdodge into the ground into a grab into you getting a headache).

I don't really know how bad this matchup is. It's always hard, but it sometimes feels like a 40/60, other times like a 30/70.

yay, got here before a possible confrontation. No, my friend. Zhamy was agreeing with Fenrir, not disagreeing. No need to get edgy. ^.^; saying that this is a possible 30/70 though is way out of line.

 

[Zhamy]

Is that adressed to FenrirVII? He can say whatever he wants, because he's right.

WHAT, WAS THAT, *****? (Just kidding.) Yeah, I was with Fenrir.

This is another one of those matchups where the numbers depend on the stage.

SMALL STAGES. SMALL STAGES. SMALL STAGES. LOW CEILINGS. TIGHT SIDES. You will kill much faster, which is what you need.

35:65, then, because the matchup changes dramatically in high % stocks based on the stage?

 

[g2g4l]

Well if input from the Oli boards is what you want it has been brought to you. Maybe i just haven't played a good fox but all the mainers i have played were easy picking for my Oli. One most of your approaches are aerial which is the place we accel at and yet our Uair usually cancels you Dair unless timed Better than a ness PK flash. and sort of ground approach is met with a most likely grab or a Fsmash for spacing. A SH approach is counter with a Spotdodge and Usmash or just Usmash. Yes your up tab combo is nice here and laser spam can be nice until we wise up and do the jumping pikmin. Our attacks cancels out your Illusion, your normally not close enough for a shine and even that is met with a grab. Pikmin can be reflect and used against up which can be a pain. Up smash after Dmg racking and recovery gimp are your two best friends here.

 

[M@v]

We are going to put this at 35:65 disadvantage.

NEXT UP, my best friends main, I fight for my friends Ike:

Prepare Yourself.

 

[metroid1117]

Fox - Ike is definitely in Fox's favor. Even though Ike can be difficult to approach because of FAir + IASA landing lag spamming, Fox is still fast enough to rush in, shield the FAir, and then grab. Then again, why are you approaching? Laser spamming can just force Ike to approach. DAir -> UTilt combos wreak havoc on Ike, building up damage and keeping the pressure on Ike in the air where he has no quick get-off moves. Ike lacks a solid horizontal recovery method, so DSmash works wonders if you want to get him killed. An off-stage Ike may seem easy to gimp with a shinespike if they're going for Aether, but be wary of the fact that (1) Aether has SAF and (2) a missed shinespike = opportunity for the Ike to DAir spike you.

Fox, however, is pretty light compared to the rest of the cast; NAirs and jabs can be pretty scary, as they are the bread and butter of Ike's set-up attacks. NAir -> UTilt is a pretty good chain that can be airdodged out of, but then you have to be wary of being predictable and falling for a delayed UTilt or FTilt in punishment. USmash is another problem for Fox, running back to avoid a Dash Attack -> reverse USmash is an effective tactic if the Fox gets predictable. While Fox's Illusion recovery is difficult for Ike to deal with, Firefox is not. A good Ike can spike Fox's up+B easily or if the angle is not right, BAir works well also. Another thing to be wary about is when you use Fox's FAir while rising; again, if you get predictable, Ike can punish with a DTilt spike.

 

[Wyvern-x]

I say it's neutral. Ike has early killing, range and priority over Fox. Fox has speed and damage racking over Ike. Both can screw up each other's recoveries.

 

[KheldarVII]

This is where D-smash is a much more fun way to kill. If he DI's downward he's screwed if he is upwards then jump out and air dodge his Side+B.

And of course just jump back on he somehow can use Up+B instead. This match is one of the more fun fights for Fox. As long as you don't rush in forward when he can pull out a quick AAA combo.

 

[Kinzer]

One thing to be wary of is that you HAVE to sweetspot the ledge when you do an Illusion recovery or if the Ike knows the distance of it you will get Fsmashed out of the ball park. Although that can be somewhat nullified if you are good with Illusion cancels and you don't get predictable with them. Just make sure Ike doesn't know when/where you will Illusion recover and you won't even have to worry about this for the most part.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I don't have much experience with this match up, but I do know out of the spacies, Fox is by far the easiest out of the 3 for Ike to go up against. Generally speaking, Falco is 2.5-7.5 (Falco's Advantage), Wolf is 4-6, and Fox is either 5-5 or 4.5-5.5, with the occasional person saying 5.5-4.5, Ike's favor. But it's basically even.

1) Ike isn't going to worry much about the laser. You can use it to take on extra %, but it isn't going to stop Ike from doing what ever it was he was going to do, so don't get greedy with it. If you're caught firing when Ike's right in front of you, say hello to either an AAA combo or an Ftilt. In all honestly, this is the projectile Ike cares about the least, to the point where it's almost an non-issue. Keyword being almost.

2) Speaking of Ike's AAA combo, Ike can do a lot with it thanks to crouch canceling. AA->AA->Grab, AA->AA->Aether, A-AAA, AA-Dtilt, you get the picture. Your best bet would be to DI backwards. DI upwards is asking for Aether, while DIing Downwards is asking for more hits. Oh, and the first hit comes out at frame 4.

3) Good Ikes will not use QD for recovery unless it's either 100% safe to do so, or it's one of those EXTREMELY rare situations where QD would be safer then Aether. Which is about 1 in 100 recoveries. Don't count on Ike using it for an easy gimp KO. It ain't happening.

4) Speaking of recovery, if you use illusion, you better sweetspot the edge because, like what Kinzer said, if you don't, it's Fsmashing time. It's worth noting, though most Ikes won't do this, Fsmash does dip low when used on the edge, to the point to if you sweetspot the edge, you would run into the blade. Most Ikes however will either go for a walkoff Dair/Fair, Dtilt spike, or Eruption. If you have to use Firefox.......you're in trouble. Say hello to edgehogging or Eruption. Use the shine to stall and throw off Ike's timing and take advantage of lag if he used the wrong attack.

5) Ike's Fair outranges everything you can do the air short of spamming the laser. Retreating Fairs is something you should expect. Oh, and the IASA frames make it so you can't really take advantage of a properly placed Fair, except for with the blaster. Anything else will land you a shield in best case scenario, a jab combo in worse case scenario. Ike's nair is lagless on landing when SH'd, so be aware of that as well. Bair comes out fast (Frame 8 IIRC), with lots of KOing power behind it. You can't airdodge all of a properly placed Uair, as in, Ike is moving forward through your position, as it hits front then back.

6) For stages, Ike loves platforms. On BF, he can hit through platforms with Utilt, Usmash, SHNair, SHFair, SHUair, Fsmash, Aether, and Eruption. If he's on the platform, and you jump at all, Dsmash or Eruption can hit you. Dtilt can hit you as well if you are going through the platform itself. You'd want to pick FD for neutrals, and Ike will either CP with Lylat Cruise (for gimping your recovery easier), Corelia(sp?) (For his infinite at the fin), or Green Greens (Good platforms, projectiles from tree). To counter pick Ike, pick Jungle Japes. It REALLY screws over Ike as if we hit the water, we are probably dead, and it's just generally awkward for us.

 

[FzeroX]

hey kinzer, i wanna play you sometime, best fox in vegas vs some unknown ike ought to be good.

 

[Kinzer]

Hehe, Alright, whatever floats your boat. I'll go ahead and host the room, just join whenever you get on.

 

[Zhamy]

1) Ike isn't going to worry much about the laser. You can use it to take on extra %, but it isn't going to stop Ike from doing what ever it was he was going to do, so don't get greedy with it. If you're caught firing when Ike's right in front of you, say hello to either an AAA combo or an Ftilt. In all honestly, this is the projectile Ike cares about the least, to the point where it's almost an non-issue. Keyword being almost.

Why would Fox laser in front of Ike? As long as Fox keeps the range of Quick Draw in mind, it's easy to rack up 30%+ damage from good laser camping on a relatively large stage. 30%, even for Ike, is an issue.

2) Speaking of Ike's AAA combo, Ike can do a lot with it thanks to crouch canceling. AA->AA->Grab, AA->AA->Aether, A-AAA, AA-Dtilt, you get the picture. Your best bet would be to DI backwards. DI upwards is asking for Aether, while DIing Downwards is asking for more hits. Oh, and the first hit comes out at frame 4.

Shine comes out faster than CC'd jab after hitstun, so it's very possible to DI downward and punish Ike.

3) Good Ikes will not use QD for recovery unless it's either 100% safe to do so, or it's one of those EXTREMELY rare situations where QD would be safer then Aether. Which is about 1 in 100 recoveries. Don't count on Ike using it for an easy gimp KO. It ain't happening.

Easily gimped recovery is still easy, but yes, we're assuming that Ike isn't a complete idiot.

4) Speaking of recovery, if you use illusion, you better sweetspot the edge because, like what Kinzer said, if you don't, it's Fsmashing time. It's worth noting, though most Ikes won't do this, Fsmash does dip low when used on the edge, to the point to if you sweetspot the edge, you would run into the blade. Most Ikes however will either go for a walkoff Dair/Fair, Dtilt spike, or Eruption. If you have to use Firefox.......you're in trouble. Say hello to edgehogging or Eruption. Use the shine to stall and throw off Ike's timing and take advantage of lag if he used the wrong attack.

All good points.

5) Ike's Fair outranges everything you can do the air short of spamming the laser. Retreating Fairs is something you should expect. Oh, and the IASA frames make it so you can't really take advantage of a properly placed Fair, except for with the blaster. Anything else will land you a shield in best case scenario, a jab combo in worse case scenario. Ike's nair is lagless on landing when SH'd, so be aware of that as well. Bair comes out fast (Frame 8 IIRC), with lots of KOing power behind it. You can't airdodge all of a properly placed Uair, as in, Ike is moving forward through your position, as it hits front then back.

We can dash-shield into Fair/Nair for a free jab/grab, as the sliding will nearly cancel out the shield hit stun. FFd AD will avoid Uair if timed correctly. But yes, Bair is a *****.

6) For stages, Ike loves platforms. On BF, he can hit through platforms with Utilt, Usmash, SHNair, SHFair, SHUair, Fsmash, Aether, and Eruption. If he's on the platform, and you jump at all, Dsmash or Eruption can hit you. Dtilt can hit you as well if you are going through the platform itself. You'd want to pick FD for neutrals, and Ike will either CP with Lylat Cruise (for gimping your recovery easier), Corelia(sp?) (For his infinite at the fin), or Green Greens (Good platforms, projectiles from tree). To counter pick Ike, pick Jungle Japes. It REALLY screws over Ike as if we hit the water, we are probably dead, and it's just generally awkward for us.

Large stages = win.

Killing Ike is lots and lots of gimping, whenever possible. It's "easy" to get him to the 100%+ range, but then it's a ***** to get him into a safe Usmash position. Dsmash will kill him earlier with incorrect DI, and do lots of combos. Lots. And lots. And lots.

60:40 Fox.

 

[M@v]

for my fellow fox guys, yes side b is extremely easy to gimp, but side b to ike is like upb to fox; he will only use it if he has no other choice.

 

[tom2bomb]

I'd spam the laser and shine against Ike, then finish him with upsmsh

 

[Zhamy]

for my fellow fox guys, yes side b is extremely easy to gimp, but side b to ike is like upb to fox; he will only use it if he has no other choice.

Assuming no Double Jump:
-Nair at high percents (brief testing says around 90%+, but I could be completely off)
-Bair
-Fair (Situational)
-Shine (Difficult to do properly, since you have to move uncomfortably far away from the stage)

Will all make it impossible for him to Aether back onto the stage. If anyone wants to do percentage/position testing, that would be great.

I'd spam the laser and shine against Ike, then finish him with upsmsh

What? How do you spam the shine against Ike? And why Usmash over Dsmash or a gimp?

 

[•Col•]

Assuming no Double Jump:
-Nair at high percents (brief testing says around 90%+, but I could be completely off)
-Bair
-Fair (Situational)
-Shine (Difficult to do properly, since you have to move uncomfortably far away from the stage)

Will all make it impossible for him to Aether back onto the stage. If anyone wants to do percentage/position testing, that would be great.



What? How do you spam the shine against Ike? And why Usmash over Dsmash or a gimp?

A good Ike isn't going to be using his double jump all over the place... xD I hardly use it for anything else besides recovery...

 

[Wyvern-x]

A good Ike will save his second jump until he is right under the stage and then aether right away. An Ike without his second jump= A dead Ike

 

[Zhamy]

Yes, which is why I put the disclaimer there.

 

[M@v]

MK is 6:4 mks advantage. Until someone gives me an actual argument why not it stays.
IN fact. this whole ****ing thread isn't going to be dreamland anymore. sorry.
/end

 

[Fenrir VII]

Love you too M@v

 

[M@v]

Love you too M@v

Anytime man, anytime

 

[Zhamy]

MK is 6:4 mks advantage. Until someone gives me an actual argument why not it stays.
IN fact. this whole ****ing thread isn't going to be dreamland anymore. sorry.
/end

I'm okay with that.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Why would Fox laser in front of Ike? As long as Fox keeps the range of Quick Draw in mind, it's easy to rack up 30%+ damage from good laser camping on a relatively large stage. 30%, even for Ike, is an issue.

Not necessarily. The blaster goes 3%, 2%, 1%, 1%, 1%, etc correct? If it's a large flat stage (FD), two grounded QDs close the distance quickly. SHQDs would get the job done even quicker, with the sliding effect at the end, during which the Ike can shield and still move forward a bit before SHQDing again. There is also short hoping ADs to get across with minimal damage if the Ike choose to do so. And FD is the only legal stage thats like that. Any other large stage that isn't banned has platforms, which greatly reduce the amount of times Ike will get hit in approaching. Even in best case scenario for Fox on FD, it would probably be 25% damage at best, which can easily be made back with an AAA combo. And 25% damage hurts Fox a lot more then it hurts Ike.

Shine comes out faster than CC'd jab after hitstun, so it's very possible to DI downward and punish Ike.

Shine comes out faster then 4 frames? Because thats how fast Ike's A comes out, not counting hit stun from an earlier attack. The only known way (to my knowledge) of getting out of an AA combo visa an attack is Marth's Up B, because it comes out on frame 1, and first 4 frames are invincibility frames. Every other way is to DI backwards. CC also reduces lag time after the AA hit for Ike. Between all of that, I'm doubting Fox can DI downwards and pull out shine fast enough. Of course, I don't have shine frame data....

We can dash-shield into Fair/Nair for a free jab/grab, as the sliding will nearly cancel out the shield hit stun. FFd AD will avoid Uair if timed correctly. But yes, Bair is a *****.

Ike can SHNair into a free AAA combo at lower %s. And my point with the Uair was that AD doesn't last long enough to avoid all of the lingering hitboxes of a properly spaced Uair. Admittedly, I'm not 100% of that fact, and it would be better if a good Ike with tournament experience could confirm this. However, I do remember seeing that fact in the Ike boards somewhere. Nair is another of Ike's attacks you can't airdodge due to lingering frames.

As for the dashing sheild into Fair/Nair, it would probably work for Nair, but I'm not so sure about Fair. Again, it would require frame data, as I don't know frame for frame how quickly Ike can move again. But I do know it's a fair bit quicker then most people expect. It would also depend how far Fox can slide with the shield. If it isn't far enough, he wouldn't be able to take a hit to the shield, and get in close enough for a jab. There is also the fact that the blow pushes backwards as well during the downward swing of Fair, so it would depend which force is stronger.

Also to add to the possible CP stage expectance list is Orphen Frigate. Why? You can't sweetspot the right ledge during the first part of the stage. Meaning with both Firefox and Illusion, Fox would have to land on stage to survive, which would equal smashes from Ike.




As well, it would help if a better Ike mainer could help with this topic. One that knows more then I do....

 

[Zhamy]

Any other large stage that isn't banned has platforms, which greatly reduce the amount of times Ike will get hit in approaching.

Or, it makes it easier for Fox to dodge around. It can go both ways, but I see where you're coming from. The other thing to keep in mind is that laser camping isn't static. As Ike approaches, assuming Fox stops at the "safe" range, SHQD's get Ike just close enough so that Fox can roll past, run away, start over, etc. Obviously, spacing in real time is more difficult and Fox can't laser camp Ike to death.

Shine comes out faster then 4 frames?

Hits on Frame 3, baby.

Ike can SHNair into a free AAA combo at lower %s.

Jab comes out on Frame 2, grab is...grab. I'll have to see how shieldstun affects this, though. I'm almost sure that Jab/Grab come out faster.

And my point with the Uair was that AD doesn't last long enough to avoid all of the lingering hitboxes of a properly spaced Uair. Admittedly, I'm not 100% of that fact, and it would be better if a good Ike with tournament experience could confirm this.

If Ike times his fall correctly, then no, although he'd have to be at the perfect height of his jump, etc. But it's very possible to FF through it with an AD.

Nair is another of Ike's attacks you can't airdodge due to lingering frames.

I hate Nair.

I'm not so sure about Fair.

It's not guaranteed, and it depends on where the Fair hits, how far along in the jump Ike is, etc. Not as feasible as Nair.

Also to add to the possible CP stage expectance list is Orphen Frigate.

Good point.

 

[RPK]

Ive learned something over the weekend...Stay away from Ikes and walls...I got f-throw chain grabbed against a wall till like...60% and it sure as hell didnt feel good...

 

[XACE-K]

Against Ike, I think this match-up is slighty in Fox's favor but not by much. For some info on the match-up,

-Ike will use power and range in the match-up while Fox should use his speed and rack up damage in this match-up.

-As easy as Ike can be gimped, he can be as good at gimping. Be careful when recovering from below the stage because he'll d-air you to kill you. When using illusion, make sure you sweetspot the ledge. Going onto the stage on missing the ledge will lead into an Ike spike.

-CP stages with either a low blast zone at the top or a small blast zone on the bottom. With a low blast zone, Fox could kill better with u-smash or u-air but Ike could kill better with thise same moves and u-tilt. A low blast zone could kill Ike faster when using reflector to gimp him but it can also kill you faster when he spikes you.

-Camping with Blaster isn't very effective since Ike could QD to you to lessen the gap.

I'll have more info later.

Edit: @RPK- Ike has a wall infinite. That's why us Ike mains love Corneria.

 

[M@v]

i personally hate fair.
my friend can space me so good with it, it gets really annoying

 

[Zhamy]

Edit: @RPK- Ike has a wall infinite. That's why us Ike mains love Corneria.

Shine infinite + Corneria = good.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Basically, Corneria is good for both Ike and Fox due to infinites, if not slightly more in Ike's favor as it cuts down a lot on how much Fox can use the blaster on Ike, seeing only a little bit of the stage is on the same level, but far enough away it's actually worth while to use the blaster.

SHQD's get Ike just close enough so that Fox can roll past, run away, start over, etc. Obviously, spacing in real time is more difficult and Fox can't laser camp Ike to death.

However, during a SHQD's slide, Ike can use any attack, and most of them keep him sliding forwards, though the distance will be cut a tad IIRC, unless it's counter, in which case, he slides farther then normal if anything.

Either way, most Ikes don't use QD much if at all. Some due however, which is the only reason I bothered to mention it.

 

[Zhamy]

However, during a SHQD's slide, Ike can use any attack, and most of them keep him sliding forwards, though the distance will be cut a tad IIRC, unless it's counter, in which case, he slides farther then normal if anything.

Ah? Didn't know that; will have to do more testing. Remind me about this if I forget.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ya, the attacks he can't use while sliding unless he wants to stop the slide early are QD and Dsmash. Maybe dtilt but I believe he keeps moving. Obviously, if he jumps again, he doesn't get a boost forward through the air.

But like I said, this isn't used much, mainly because there aren't many situations where this can be used without being punished by a projectile with hitstun, or running up and activating the QD attack. Fox's blaster might be the exception as well.

Another thing to note is that Ike does have a good Hyphen Smash.

 

[Zhamy]

Another thing to note is that Ike does have a good Hyphen Smash.

Sloooow smash is still slow, but good to keep in mind.

Sliding QD's will still require prediction from both sides, so that just leads straight back into normal hit/combo strategies.

Numbers, anyone? 60-40 Fox sound about right?