Fox Match-Up General Discussion

[Lightning93]

Yes, very helpful, thank you.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I think the main two things that screw r.o.b. in this match up are his size, and the travel speed of his projectiles.
Unless rob is on the complete other side of the stage, his projectiles will hit him if shined, what most robs like to do is wait for you to use the shine, then shoot you with the laser when they think your gonna drop it. Just hold the reflector until they shoot, or decide to approach. Most robs, even the good ones , will **** themselves with their own projectiles because they refuse to not use the laser.
Take advantage, and his size is nothing but a complete negitive for this fight. The short hop dair to U tilt works wonders here, as well as throws.
The only thing to be concerned about is Rob's range, and his off stage game. Be smart and control the center of the stage, if you can do that, you've won.
Most R.O.B.s like to side line most of the time anyway, so it shouldnt be too hard. The main thing to winning this fight is to make R.O.B. afraid to use his projectiles, onces thats done, he'll approach by fair spam, or rolling. Both can be beaten by Fox. If he fair spams, shield grab him when he trys to actually hit you, never jump torwards a fairing R.O.B. you wont win.
If he rolls on top of you expect a Dodge to D-smash. To beat this, short hop dair is just incredible, but dont try to smash out of dair every time, I found that dair to Jab combo is just incredible against rob, don't go overboard with the jab combo though, if you do it for to long, expect a F-tilt to the face to bring it to a screeching halt.
All in all, a smart R.O.B. can match you pretty decently, but his size, and his generally campy style make him lose at the very end.
McCloud 6/4 bad Idea for a new character

I agree with almost all of this, so It's basically a QFT here.

Main thing. I agree with the punishing projectiles.. ROB's style from the start has been (mainly) to edge camp projectile until people approached him, then throw off and edgeguard... Well, fox has no need to approach ROB...and ROB has VERY limited approaching options against Fox. It's usually very smiple to see a laser coming and shine... Gyro isn't too bad either...so ROB's projectile game is REALLY hurt here. You can also put more damage on him through your lasers than he can do anything about.

Another point is killing... I made this earlier. Assuming the Fox player is smart with his second jump (jump away from the stage most of the time...or recover really high), ROB's edgeguarding is less effective...and on the stage, he has legitimate trouble killing...while Fox kills around 100%. I keep bringing up the second jump thing...let me explain that

ROB's main strat for edgeguarding is to knock you off the stage followed by a SH fair or falling fair. If you avoid the first fair, you should have a safe trip back to the stage.

When I said firefox from different angles...I meant START it at weird angles from the ledge... NEVER firefox at a 45 degreee angle below the ledge...that's just a run off fair death. Never firefox at eye level...same idea. If you can be a way out from the ledge right UNDER the stage, though, he has more trouble and could easily miss... It's hard to visualize, but I'm trying to be clear here... Say you extend the ledge's line out off the stage... take the angle between that line and where you firefox (below that line). about 2/3 of an illusion away from the stage, firefox around 20 degrees below that line and it's pretty safe... stuff like that. You then have to slight angle the firefox to get back, but I'm assuming you can do that.

On the stage, I see ROBs having LOTS of trouble killing Fox. usmash hits if the player is dumb. Fsmash is probably his best move for it. Nair is tricky, but slow, so just...avoid it. Bair is similar... He has killing power, but if you are watching for it, it's easy to avoid with Fox.

Another huge ROB game is the dodge to dsmash...but you can DI out of it... I use both sticks up and get out of 90% of them...so that's taken out...

And he's very big and heavy, so you go to town on him with combos.

Also worthy of note... if you force him to approach... if he fairs OR dash attacks, you can shield usmash it. grab and bair, you can't do that with... but it's another option. Idk, ROB never has given me too much trouble...


I say 6-4 Fox

 

[Lightning93]

Okay, I have to play some ROBs soon. Your recovery method is a bit hard to picture in action, but I get the jist of it. Actually I see what you mean, you wanna go for a more vertical recovery with the Fire Fox right, unless you have the option to illusion. Just wait a bit so ROB can't come down on you.

 

[Fenrir VII]

okay, I Have To Play Some Robs Soon. Your Recovery Method Is A Bit Hard To Picture In Action, But I Get The Jist Of It. Actually I See What You Mean, You Wanna Go For A More Vertical Recovery With The Fire Fox Right, Unless You Have The Option To Illusion. Just Wait A Bit So Rob Can't Come Down On You.

...............................................
...............................................
...............................................
...............................................
..[].........................................
___......................................
----/.....................................
__/........................XX.........
.............OO...........................
.............................................
....DD...................................
BB.....................................
...............YY.....................


Alright, this is bad ascii art, but it works.

[] is ROB

the part in the left middle is the stage

XX, OO, DD, and BB all depict spots from where you could start your firefox...to some extent.

OObwill get you killed every time the ROB does not make a mistake... it's the WORST option for firefox against most characters... that's the 45 degree angle

XX is what i was saying... assuming Rob goes for the oo kill, he has a hard time punishing this one...if you're far enough off the stage

DD is punished by dair if he times it right. that's a tricky timing, but pro ROBs will know how to hit it....so that's a death move for Fox. x.x

BB (under the stage) is an interesting call... it's fairly safe if he tries to hit you....he can hit a bair if he's ready for it (doubtful), but you can just tech that...or fly under the stage and get back on the other side...
the problem is if he sees it, he edgehogs it and you die. lol... so another fairly bad option.

YY is a good option usually, but his dair will eat you up...and he could just edgehog you... so death again...

Again, this is all assuming you have already lost all other options and have to firefox back up to the ledge.

None of these are truly safe... but thankfully, if you're careful, you won't be in this position too much. but even now, you HAVE to mix up where you're going with the firefox...as it's startup is really long and ROB has good tools to kill you... don't EVER go from the 45 degree (OO)

 

[Sky`]

"Side B Sucks."

You guys maaaaybe should get some facts straight, before you just rule that move as... "Sucking."

And 50/50 is being too nice for Mr. Foxy. :3

 

[M@v]

"Side B Sucks."

You guys maaaaybe should get some facts straight, before you just rule that move as... "Sucking."

And 50/50 is being too nice for Mr. Foxy. :3

And your evidence is where? I dont see it in your post.

And Side-B DOES suck...I NEVER see rob Players use it...once in a blue moon to mix it up, but nothing extraordinary. Its just another way to make themselves unpredictabale. yes its priority is good, but you can move around at all when using it...that leaves you open and very vulnerable. Your better off using sh fair if your going to use side b in most cases...

 

[Lightning93]

Lol nice diagram but I get your point. Really it's mostly about just mixing it up so he can't predict your next recovery, I'll just make sure to control the stage though, I was probably fighting this matchup all wrong, I was nervous and approaching way to predictably. This info helps a lot guys and hopefully soon I can conquer my resentment of ROBs, and that darn WALLE guy. Is there anything else worth mentioning?

 

[Lightning93]

And Side-B DOES suck...I NEVER see rob Players use it...once in a blue moon to mix it up, but nothing extraordinary. Its just another way to make themselves unpredictabale. yes its priority is good, but you can move around at all when using it...that leaves you open and very vulnerable. Your better off using sh fair if your going to use side b in most cases...

Lol there's some nice proof.

 

[RPK]

...10char...

 

[Duo55]

Vs Fox...? Not so great. See all you gotta is roll torwards peach when she does this move, and its pretty much a free U smash. It telegraphed enough to pretty much see it coming every time. Now, dont get me wrong, a smart player I'm sure can hit with it decently... and a smart player can also hit decently with DKs fair but that doesn't make it practical.

 

[-Mars-]

Peach bomber amazing? I was of the understanding that it was only used for recovery?

 

[Zhamy]

Peach Bomber got buffed, but it's not anything fantastic.

 

[KheldarVII]

All you gotta do is shield Peach's bomber and she'll go right through..... right through into U-smash territory. No need to roll.

Just make sure you don't get snagged by that lingering hitbox. God does that thing linger.

 

[Lightning93]

Yeah, I agree about what most people have been saying about the Peach Bomber. It's easy to see coming, but I guess if it does hit you it can be annoying.

Mostly posted to see my new homemade sig in action.

 

[RPK]

Please ignore my last post...-ugh- F*** you Sky' ._. The guy was at my house last night and apparently decided to make a post on my screen name. So yeah...that last post...never happened...

 

[Duo55]

Please ignore my last post...-ugh- F*** you Sky' ._. The guy was at my house last night and apparently decided to make a post on my screen name. So yeah...that last post...never happened...

Edit that post then. No need for people to think you said something you didn't. Also, I know the roll isn't nessisary, but I find it just so much easier to get the U-smash off without the headache of trying to judge when that massive, as well as lingering hit box has passed. There plenty of cool down on the move for you to take your time, so I chose to play it safe if I have the chance.

 

[Fenrir VII]

So basically, we're talking about Peach now? uh... not really necessary... let's just move on and let whoever post when we do get to Peach... anything else on ROB? it's looking between 6-4 and 5-5 fox...

 

[Zhamy]

55:45, then?

I'd say Fox has the slightest advantage, but nothing game breaking.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

im agreeing with Zhamy on 55:45

 

[§witch]

Kirby next.

 

[-Mars-]

Yes, let's do Kirby. I'm currently having some problems with the little puffball.

 

[§witch]

And I'm starting to love playing as him. A note on the falco match-up, he can LL from a ftilt or ledge attack. Ledge attack works at low %, whereas ftilt works from 80% or so.

 

[Lightning93]

Hmm yes those Kirby f-throws to u-airs to grab to whatever can really get on your nerves.

Not to mention the unreasonable amount of knockback his f-smash has given his size. It can kill a Fox at 80%... -.-

 

[M@v]

ok ROB will go down as even, since we dont have a 55:45 cool?



Since you guys want him, we will do the puffball of fury, kirby next.

I am VERY tired. so ill update the rob info tomorrow.

 

[Xiivi]

ok ROB will go down as even, since we dont have a 55:45 cool?

That's stupid. It's not like you said "well we can't list Marth as 35:65 because we don't have it yet!" Seriously, you shouldn't botch a match-up decision because you don't want to make a little slot for it. -_-;;

 

[xxxacidxxx]

**** Fox ***ggotssss

 

[xxxacidxxx]

Fox Susks ****** Dong

 

[JigglyZelda003]

@xxxacidxxx
please go away before we poach you lol. if you have something to contribute say so. otherwise make like your getting hit by Zeldas Dsmash and GTFO. lol

 

[-Mars-]

Fox Susks ****** Dong

GTFO and stop spamming on our thread. We don't need someone who created an account simply for the purpose of trolling to spam up our discussion thread.

 

[jiovanni007]

So you guys got the match up for Kirby right but you got a few things wrong. His 0% combo gets you to ~50%, not 30. He can duck the blaster and force you to approach, he outprioritzes in the air unless you come from above due to the awkward timing of uair, He probably won't steal the blaster, he can KO you fairly easily (fsmash from 60~70, hammer from less >.> fox is light this time around), he's difficult to combo being so floaty and all, and side B is the only safe recovery you have so if you're screwed if you're below the stage. Killing Kirby isn't the issue with Fox, it just building the damage to do so since usmash kills from ~80 IIRC. Its an uphill struggle since off the bat he's gonna put 50% on you and be able to kill you after two more hits. Kirby's standard approaches don't lag so its its just plain tough for Fox. I don't play Fox so I can't give input on what to do, all I know is that I've never had any trouble with Fox before.

 

[Zhamy]

So you guys got the match up for Kirby right but you got a few things wrong. His 0% combo gets you to ~50%, not 30.

With proper DI, it's closer to 40%.

He can duck the blaster and force you to approach,

How? We can blaster all day.

he outprioritzes in the air unless you come from above due to the awkward timing of uair,

Dair, if hit correctly, clanks with quite a number of Kirby's hitboxes. Not to mention dropped Nairs and Bairs, although Fairs have some trouble.

Killing Kirby isn't the issue with Fox, it just building the damage to do so since usmash kills from ~80 IIRC.

Closer to 90, but in the 80's range.

Its an uphill struggle since off the bat he's gonna put 50% on you and be able to kill you after two more hits.

wut.


30-70 in favor of Kirby, by the way.

 

[KheldarVII]

That's a silly argument to "blaster all day".

That's a battle of patience and Kirby isn't exactly doing the harder side of it.

 

[~Gonzo~]

The combo is guaranteed to 50 sir, No amount DI can get u out of it, second blaster only does 2 damage per hit. Kirby isnt gonna be far away enough for u to camp and effectively build damage with that. Also Fox Illusion, which is probably Fox's safest way to get on the stage, no longer has the priority it use to have. Fox can be Dair'd out of fox illusion. Also Kirby can grab and just hit grab release Fox to Dair when at the edge of the stage.

In terms of KO potential. Both are dangerous. Although Kirby has more options. Fox is faster which means Fox has to come in for the kill while Kirby who has aerial KO options as well can come from different angles to get a KO. Fox really only has his Upsmash. ALthough his Fsmash and Dsmash both kill they are hard to hit Kirby with. Kirby can duck under the first half of Fox's Fsmash and his Dsmash has small range.

The worst thing for Fox is , is that at he beginning of every stock he hgets grab combo'd off the stage for a minimum of 51 percent damage. At that point he is in a vulnerable position to get back on the stage. Kirby can now Dair or Bair or wait for Fox to recover to the stage. Kirby is much faster this time around so Fox's options are pretty limited, as in Forward B on to the stage without getting hit. Pretty difficult given that kirby's edge game is one of the best and his 5 jumps means he can hang out near the edge protecting it if he needs to grab it to gimp fox or using Bair if Fox goes above stage instead.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Gonzo combo pwns Fox...It's in Kirbys favour

 

[Fenrir VII]

second blaster only does 2 damage per hit.
Kirby isnt gonna be far away enough for u to camp and effectively build damage with that.
Also Fox Illusion, which is probably Fox's safest way to get on the stage, no longer has the priority it use to have. Fox can be Dair'd out of fox illusion.
:
:
Fox is faster which means Fox has to come in for the kill while Kirby who has aerial KO options as well can come from different angles to get a KO. Fox really only has his Upsmash.
:
:

And that's my cue to stop reading your post...

You make some good points... and it's good to hear from a Kirby user, but the stuff you posted isn't completely true.

First of all, Illusion has never had any priority... that's no different from Melee...it has always attacked BEHIND fox... so yeah, priority is nil.

Secondly, the main use of the blaster is not to just camp... personally, it doesn't really matter how much damage it does. anything you get from it is nice, but that's not the point. It has two main uses:

Refill your diminished moves
be a constant reminder that the opponent has to do something about those "2%"s... or Fox will just...keep doing it.

It really doesn't matter if Kirby can duck under lasers.. he still can't attack Fox.

To say that Fox's only way to a kill is usmash is COMPLETELY flawed. Of course it's his best option here...and one of the best in the game... but you disregard the fact that bair will trade with your bair and kill you mad early, too... and dsmash and usmash both combo from dair at correct %s... Dair will kill you around the edge starting at like 80-90... so to say we have to land usmash... uh...no we don't.

Also, the grab release combo won't work on a ground release.. which is what good players should be doing now..

As for recovery, if you predict us...yeah, you can kill us...along with 90% of the rest of the cast... HOWEVER... with proper edge games, Fox is very hard to predict... And if you go for the of stage game, Fox recovers high safely... if you stay on the stage for the high recovery, that's a free ledge... and you can't completely rule out firefox here either.

Everybody keeps mentioning the cg here...with good reason...it's a good tactic. However, Kirby still has to land a grab on Fox, which should never be easy. Fox should land behind kirby with every aerial, and on a shield, roll away... this eliminates defensive options for kirby and will often lead to him missing grabs and getting punished.

For a floaty, multi jump char, Kirby is REALLY easy to gimp with Fox... his lack of instant upwards moves make him bait for dairs and shine spikes.. and his upB is ridiculously easy to punish... he also has slow horizontal movement...and overall slow jumping, so it's just not that bad...

Overall, I still say the match is in Kirby's favor slightly... but it's mainly due to his fsmash games, with the cg thrown in. I'll play the match, though. no big deal.

 

[M@v]

That's stupid. It's not like you said "well we can't list Marth as 35:65 because we don't have it yet!" Seriously, you shouldn't botch a match-up decision because you don't want to make a little slot for it. -_-;;

calm down im fixing it. I told you I was really tired last night. I almost made the keyboard my pillow.

Also, I am going to put a contents page for the discussion. That way everyone can see what pages of the thread covered what character

 

[jiovanni007]

And that's my cue to stop reading your post...

You make some good points... and it's good to hear from a Kirby user, but the stuff you posted isn't completely true.

First of all, Illusion has never had any priority... that's no different from Melee...it has always attacked BEHIND fox... so yeah, priority is nil.

Secondly, the main use of the blaster is not to just camp... personally, it doesn't really matter how much damage it does. anything you get from it is nice, but that's not the point. It has two main uses:

Refill your diminished moves
be a constant reminder that the opponent has to do something about those "2%"s... or Fox will just...keep doing it.

It really doesn't matter if Kirby can duck under lasers.. he still can't attack Fox.

It does matter that Kirby can duck under lasers, a lot. A Kirby won't particularly care if your moves are stale since usmash is gonna pwn anyway, fsmash will kill at above average percents, and bair can kill offstage assuming you can hit with it. Ducking forces Fox to approach, end of story. If at the start of the match Fox starts blastering and Kirby starts ducking, Fox would be called for stalling and Kirby would win anyway.

To say that Fox's only way to a kill is usmash is COMPLETELY flawed. Of course it's his best option here...and one of the best in the game... but you disregard the fact that bair will trade with your bair and kill you mad early, too... and dsmash and usmash both combo from dair at correct %s... Dair will kill you around the edge starting at like 80-90... so to say we have to land usmash... uh...no we don't.

You misinterpreted what he said, usmash is the only reliable way to kill. It kills early, has a good slide distance, good range and good priority. As Gonzo previously stated, fsmash doesn't connect completely in most cases.

Also, the grab release combo won't work on a ground release.. which is what good players should be doing now..

I'm pretty sure on the grab release he meant grab you by the edge, pummel you til you release offstage then dair -> footstool you since Fox has no answer when recovering from below Kirby.

As for recovery, if you predict us...yeah, you can kill us...along with 90% of the rest of the cast... HOWEVER... with proper edge games, Fox is very hard to predict... And if you go for the of stage game, Fox recovers high safely... if you stay on the stage for the high recovery, that's a free ledge... and you can't completely rule out firefox here either.

Then he can eat a fsmash or ground hammer to the face and still die. Kirbys not gonna drift all the way out to the edge having not connected with you already. His air movement isn't that bad and Fox does suffer from landing lag on the side b

Everybody keeps mentioning the cg here...with good reason...it's a good tactic. However, Kirby still has to land a grab on Fox, which should never be easy. Fox should land behind kirby with every aerial, and on a shield, roll away... this eliminates defensive options for kirby and will often lead to him missing grabs and getting punished.

Wut? You serious? Kirby definitely has one of the best grab ranges relative to size and is actually feared for his shield grab game. So what you can land behind him with aerials, Kirby can grab you before you get behind him from a SH and even faux SA through your attacks.

For a floaty, multi jump char, Kirby is REALLY easy to gimp with Fox... his lack of instant upwards moves make him bait for dairs and shine spikes.. and his upB is ridiculously easy to punish... he also has slow horizontal movement...and overall slow jumping, so it's just not that bad...

His horizontal movement isn't slow, I'm tired of hearing this, its average. He's no Wario, but he's also no D3. Also Fox should be very scared of Kirby's wall of hammers and fairs while coming back to stage. Its also assumed that pros know how to DI so IIRC Fox's dsmash is the only move that could send Kirby at an angle to be affected by the shine or dair

Overall, I still say the match is in Kirby's favor slightly... but it's mainly due to his fsmash games, with the cg thrown in. I'll play the match, though. no big deal.

"Slightly in Kirby's favor" is a severe understatement and a disservice to the Fox community. Every Fox needs to be prepared for this match and not in the position to underestimate it. This is one match that you definitely need to counterpick on. Grab does 50% off the bat, fsmash kills from 70 and the hammer from less. The math is not in Fox's favor at all. 70-30 is a very fair assessment considering what you have to work against. Don't feel bad since Kirby players are gonna counterpick against Marth most of the time.

My comments in green, hope they help.

 

[-Mars-]

At Jiovanni, Kirbys' horizontal air speed is slow.....

Character - Horizontal Air Speed

"S Class"
Yoshi - 4.04
Jigglypuff - 3.87
Wario - 3.71
Wolf - 3.63
Captain Falcon - 3.63

"A Class"
Sonic - 3.36
Donkey Kong - 3.36
Lucas - 3.30
Bowser - 3.30
Squirtle - 3.27
Mr. Game & Watch - 3.24
Marth - 3.24

"B Class"
Zero Suit Samus - 3.13
Charizard - 3.07
Zelda - 3.02
Samus - 2.97
Lucario - 2.95
Ness - 2.92
Mario - 2.92

"C Class"
Snake - 2.88
Toon Link - 2.83
Ike - 2.83
Pikachu - 2.74
Peach - 2.74
R.O.B. - 2.70
Pit - 2.70
Fox - 2.70
Falco - 2.70

"D Class"
Ganondorf - 2.62
Kirby - 2.59
Sheik - 2.57
Olimar - 2.55
Diddy Kong - 2.50
Link - 2.45

"F Class"
Meta Knight - 2.35
Ivysaur - 2.32
Ice Climbers - 2.32
Luigi - 2.29
King Dedede - 2.10

Ya........Ganondorf has faster Horizontal air speed than you.

We won't be trying to kill with fsmash ever, too much cooldown and easy to see coming, but that doesn't matter. Bair and dsmash will kill Kirby at ridiculous percentages and usmash is really easy to land.

If your going to be recovering horizontally with hammers and fairs, thats 20% in free damage we'll get from the blaster.

Sure,at the beginning you can duck under lasers, but that doesn't mean SHDL's are taken out of the equation....to a certain extent Fox can still camp you with hit and run tactics.

 

[MK26]

Sure,at the beginning you can duck under lasers, but that doesn't mean SHDL's are taken out of the equation....to a certain extent Fox can still camp you with hit and run tactics.

FTR, Kirby can suck up Fox and copy his blaster.

Then he has short hop quad laser.

And the last laser is a silent, lagless laser.

If you get the fourth laser off, it will be silent all the time. The timing is that tight.

Just sayin'

70-30 plox

 

[Zhamy]

It does matter that Kirby can duck under lasers, a lot. A Kirby won't particularly care if your moves are stale since usmash is gonna pwn anyway, fsmash will kill at above average percents, and bair can kill offstage assuming you can hit with it. Ducking forces Fox to approach, end of story. If at the start of the match Fox starts blastering and Kirby starts ducking, Fox would be called for stalling and Kirby would win anyway.

You've never laser camped before, have you? Because that's not how it works at all, so I'm assuming either ignorance or stupidity. "End of story."

You misinterpreted what he said, usmash is the only reliable way to kill. It kills early, has a good slide distance, good range and good priority. As Gonzo previously stated, fsmash doesn't connect completely in most cases.

No. Dsmash and Uair work ridiculously well on Kirby, not to mention are a helluva lot easier to land because Kirby has odd horizontal movement.

I'm pretty sure on the grab release he meant grab you by the edge, pummel you til you release offstage then dair -> footstool you since Fox has no answer when recovering from below Kirby.

How? Fox won't drop below stage level if he's smart about that. Grab release stun doesn't last that long.

Then he can eat a fsmash or ground hammer to the face and still die. Kirbys not gonna drift all the way out to the edge having not connected with you already. His air movement isn't that bad and Fox does suffer from landing lag on the side b

Yes, if you predict correctly. I could say the same thing about Kirby. "Oh, if you get hit off the stage, no matter how you try to recover, if you get on the stage, I'll just Usmash you."

Wut? You serious? Kirby definitely has one of the best grab ranges relative to size and is actually feared for his shield grab game. So what you can land behind him with aerials, Kirby can grab you before you get behind him from a SH and even faux SA through your attacks.

No. Crossup Dair passes through the entire shield and the Kirby's body, just for one example. And shield stun lasts long enough so that you can't turnaround grab.

His horizontal movement isn't slow, I'm tired of hearing this, its average. He's no Wario, but he's also no D3. Also Fox should be very scared of Kirby's wall of hammers and fairs while coming back to stage. Its also assumed that pros know how to DI so IIRC Fox's dsmash is the only move that could send Kirby at an angle to be affected by the shine or dair

Look above.

"Slightly in Kirby's favor" is a severe understatement and a disservice to the Fox community. Every Fox needs to be prepared for this match and not in the position to underestimate it. This is one match that you definitely need to counterpick on. Grab does 50% off the bat, fsmash kills from 70 and the hammer from less. The math is not in Fox's favor at all. 70-30 is a very fair assessment considering what you have to work against. Don't feel bad since Kirby players are gonna counterpick against Marth most of the time.

Don't feel bad? Mmm...condescending pricks. Why are there so many of them? It is 70-30 Kirby, but you're wrong about your analysis of those points. 70-30 doesn't mean "beat into submission and nothing you say gives Fox any advantages." In other words, you're wrong about these points.

FTR, Kirby can suck up Fox and copy his blaster.

Then he has short hop quad laser.

Try it and you'll get ***** by Fox having a free approach.