Fox Match-Up General Discussion

[Mmac]

I made a Compact Universal Matchup Template for you to use, if you want to use it. Just add in the Title/Numbers yourself, and whatever else you want to do with it

 

[Zhamy]

What we have now.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

maybe put the letters in black. its kinda hard to see the white. thanks Mmac

 

[M@v]

Lets give it one more day, but it is looking like 6:4 fox for this one.

 

[Zhamy]

6:4 Fox, and put letters in black. Will get on that soon enough; busy today.

 

[Fenrir VII]

6:4 Fox, and put letters in black. Will get on that soon enough; busy today.

I think you can go ahead and assume that Fox vs Fox will be 5-5, too. haha

 

[-Mars-]

I think you can go ahead and assume that Fox vs Fox will be 5-5, too. haha

Depends what color you use.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Depends what color you use.

This is completely true... sorry...I forgot about it.

blue > red 7-3
red > green 7-3
green > blue 7-3
Black > red, blue, green 6-4
White < Red, blue, green 4-6

White > black 8-2

Standard has straight 5-5s

 

[-Mars-]

This is completely true... sorry...I forgot about it.

blue > red 7-3
red > green 7-3
green > blue 7-3
Black > red, blue, green 6-4
White < Red, blue, green 4-6

White > black 8-2

Standard has straight 5-5s

No, where on earth do you get your information from? Everyone knows standard has 100:0 advantage on all the colors, it's so good some argue it should even be banned. White over black 8-2? ROFL I can't believe your letting your fanboyism cloud your judgement.......i'm disappointed.

Where's our "leader" when you need him.

 

[Fenrir VII]

No, where on earth do you get your information from? Everyone knows standard has 100:0 advantage on all the colors, it's so good some argue it should even be banned. White over black 8-2? ROFL I can't believe your letting your fanboyism cloud your judgement.......i'm disappointed.

Where's our "leader" when you need him.

You obviously don't even play Fox...why are you posting in here, even? do you just enjoy this?

I never said I was a leader, you're ridiculous.

obviously, if you put them into real life situations, Red, Blue, and Green Fox all have even matches with standard... have you even played the match?

I think these discussions should involve mindgames...as if the red blue and green Fox is obviously smarter than the standard one...

actually, if you'll assume that standard Fox is a ********, one-armed 12-yr old.... then obviously, the match becomes 5-5...duh... *shrug*

And how am I a fanboy? I play BLACK Fox... cretin...
I am simply accepting my character's weaknesses... If I do not accept that Black fox is the worst character in the game, I can never hope to win disadvantageous matches with him.

 

[-Mars-]

You obviously don't even play Fox...why are you posting in here, even? do you just enjoy this?

I never said I was a leader, you're ridiculous.

obviously, if you put them into real life situations, Red, Blue, and Green Fox all have even matches with standard... have you even played the match?

I think these discussions should involve mindgames...as if the red blue and green Fox is obviously smarter than the standard one...

actually, if you'll assume that standard Fox is a ********, one-armed 12-yr old.... then obviously, the match becomes 5-5...duh... *shrug*

And how am I a fanboy? I play BLACK Fox... cretin...
I am simply accepting my character's weaknesses... If I do not accept that Black fox is the worst character in the game, I can never hope to win disadvantageous matches with him.

Wow, I really don't know what to say....even if standard is ******** it doesn't matter because he is broken. None of the other colors can approach, they can't play off the stage with him, and they have no optons for his Godly moves.

The Fox boards make me sick they're full of a bunch of overzealous idiots who think they're color is better than it actually is. Seriously face it, your color has no options against anything standard does......only when you finally accept this will you be able to advance the other colors metagame. Until then any arguments you have against standard will be discarded...it's not even debatable.

 

[DMG]

I give that entire/ongoing conversation 10+ cool points.

Also, why is Red Fox not better? I hear the red comes from the blood of his enemies. You try shooting someone with a Laser Blaster and see if they live anymore.

 

[Timbers]

****ing lol.

 

[§witch]

Standard ***** the universe.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Wow, I really don't know what to say....even if standard is ******** it doesn't matter because he is broken. None of the other colors can approach, they can't play off the stage with him, and they have no optons for his Godly moves.

The Fox boards make me sick they're full of a bunch of overzealous idiots who think they're color is better than it actually is. Seriously face it, your color has no options against anything standard does......only when you finally accept this will you be able to advance the other colors metagame. Until then any arguments you have against standard will be discarded...it's not even debatable.

Your face makes me sick. Go back to your lame boards and get off MY Fox boards... Yes, that's right. MINE...

harumph.

Again, you weren't hearing me before... If you are put into a situation where the standard Fox player is a one-armed, ********, 12 year old, the even match becomes clear. I mean, think about it. If you approach with shield, he is forced to run off the stage and die.
That's a 0-death given combo.
I mean sure, hitting R is hard, but it's not outside the realm of Einstein's logic to assume that the kid will look away from the screen for a second, allowing you to approach with shield outside his knowledge.

This is all obvious. can't you see that?

Seriously, I'm done here... you obviously don't understand plain and simple logic. Come back once you've had a few more classes.

 

[M@v]

Blue fox owns them all....he has boots that are made for walking.


EDIT: Ok I am pretty sure ike is taken care of. 6:4 fox advantage it is.
Next, an opponent(or opponents) depending on how you look at it.
A DUAL/SINGLE character discussion: Zelda/sheik

We are analyzing them together, because they are basically 2 parts of one character. In most cases they have weaknesses apart, but rock if used as one. Zelda/sheik is my primary secondary besides MK, and I can say it is much more effective using them together.

Marsulas, you better post up. I know your a sheik main

 

[Zankoku]

Ftilt lock. Avoid it at all costs.

65:35 favoring Sheik or better.

 

[choknater]

****ING FTILT FOX UNTIL HE ****ING DIES!!!

if fox does a good job at avoiding it and punishing sheik he can do kinda well

i've experienced it before

but then i just started ftilting more

yeah... i don't think it's feasable to overlook this crazy advantage

 

[-Mars-]

Your face makes me sick. Go back to your lame boards and get off MY Fox boards... Yes, that's right. MINE...

harumph.

Again, you weren't hearing me before... If you are put into a situation where the standard Fox player is a one-armed, ********, 12 year old, the even match becomes clear. I mean, think about it. If you approach with shield, he is forced to run off the stage and die.
That's a 0-death given combo.
I mean sure, hitting R is hard, but it's not outside the realm of Einstein's logic to assume that the kid will look away from the screen for a second, allowing you to approach with shield outside his knowledge.

This is all obvious. can't you see that?

Seriously, I'm done here... you obviously don't understand plain and simple logic. Come back once you've had a few more classes.

Lol....you win, I don't know what else to say

On a more serious note.....yay Sheik and Zelda, i'll try to get something up for both of them sometime tomorrow, really sleepy right now

 

[Zhamy]

I hate playing this matchup. I hated it in Melee; I hate it in Brawl.

Also:

65:35 favoring Sheik

This.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Well if Both Zelda and sheik alone are VERY effective against fox, in tandem they can only do better!

I've only played this matchup from my side. And, as long as I don't make ignorant mistakes for Fox to punish, this is not a hard match at all. it's almost a gimme.



Do you need specific reasons? or do you already have those for the two charcters separately?

 

[§witch]

Ftilt lock, yeah, you're ****ed. If you don't get KO'ed by a tippered usmash, zelda will KO really early. This one of our harder match-ups...

 

[Zankoku]

Well if Both Zelda and sheik alone are VERY effective against fox, in tandem they can only do better!

I can't think of any consistent situations where Sheik would need to Transform, and the same probably applies for Zelda. This may be a matchup where the only advantage gained from Transforming would be a stylistic advantage or due to messing with the opponent's mind, and "mindgames" should never be taken into account in a matchup analysis.

Zelda/Sheik may be a non-matchup.

 

[SCOTU]

however, the ability to switch does strictly give you an advantage. It's not saying the ZSheik player will mindgames the fox player, but the ability to switch up playstyles is a definite advantage.

 

[choknater]

there's always the chance that fox has a better matchup against zelda than he does against sheik and fox may make a comeback against a zelda who doesn't know how to handle the speed

always a possibility

transforming is a matter of adaptation on both sides

scotu has a point though

 

[M@v]

Good point scotu. Lets try to hammer them down separately too. But whenever I play Zelda/sheik, I switch during the match, with a few exceptions. (against heavies, zelda's smashes ****. Then again, so does tilt lock). But I usually start as sheik, then switch as needed.

IMO also...I was a zelda/sheik main in melee, and even though sheik was a goddess in melee, I like this setup better, because I SWITCHED between them in match in melee. They were built to to do that in this game, and If I didn't main fox, it would be Zelda/sheik.

 

[Zhamy]

I can't think of any consistent situations where Sheik would need to Transform, and the same probably applies for Zelda.

Very true, especially considering that Sheik has no real problems KOing someone as light as Fox.

I think it's best to separate the two matchups - after all, you're going to want to look at it differently if you're playing against Sheik than if you're playing against Zelda.

 

[-Mars-]

Sheik- I'm inclined to agree that it's 65:35 for Sheik, strictly because of the tilt lock. I actually think that besides that, it's on a pretty even footing. If you get caught in the air with an ftilt, your as good as dead, if your on the ground before around 50% you do have the ability to powershield it, though it is extremely difficult. Keep your distance from Sheik and never attack her shield or else you'll get some ftilt out of shield. Two other moves you should be watching out for is utilt and dsmash. Utilt has great priority and is extremely quick, it makes a dair fairly hard to land in this matchup, it also leads into an ftilt, so don't be throwing out a lot of dairs. Dsmash is extremely fast, iirc it comes out on frame 4 and it does good damage, also leads into a nice gimp opportunity for Sheik. Off stage i'd also give the advantage to Sheik, she's so good off the edge, she can travel all over the place and still have no worries of making it back. When your the one edgeguarding, one thing you should make sure you do is always grab the edge. As a Sheik player I love to use the tether to grab the edge, but it's actually fairly dangerous. THe chain does have fantastic and surprising range, so whenever Sheik gets anywhere near the ledge.....grab it. The idea is to try to make Sheik use vanish to land on the stage(make sure you still have invincibilty frames because Vanish is strong), because you then get a free hit.

The thing that Fox can do is play defensive. Sheik is always going to be the one approaching, so use whatever advantage you can there. Always throw out a few lasers whenever you can. The basic Fox utilts still work good here. Fair, Bair, and Nair are going to give Sheik some problems in the air........her bair has great range and decent knockback, so she does have a little range advantage.

Zelda-60:40 for Zelda, it might even be worse than this. While Sheik has a devastating lock on Fox, Zelda just has priority on everything. Again she has to approach, so use whatever you can out of that. Zelda has very limited approach options.

A lot of people have this false idea that Zelda is slow....not completely true. Her horizontal airspeed is good and she has several extremely fast moves. Dtilt, Dsmash, Naryus, Nair(autocancels) all are very fast and the only one with noticeable cooldown is Naryus. Dtilt can lock for a good amount at lower percentages and at higher percentages it combos into her vast array of kill moves. Utilt, usmash, dsmash, fsmash, uair, bair, and fair all can kill at a little under or over 100%, even if you DI correctly. For most Zelda players usmash and fsmash will be used more for damage racking than for killing, dsmash will probably be the main kill move in this matchup; the trajectory on it at higher percentages unless expertly DI'ed won't even let Fox get back to the ledge. Usmash can chain together at the beginning of a stockk because of Foxs' falling speed. A nice little string I always do is usmash>usmash>nair>dins fire for a quick 40%.

Another thing to look out for is bair out of shield, it's a great way to land some lightning kicks. *shrugs* as a Fox player I actually have more difficulty against Zelda than I do Sheik.

 

[Toronto Joe]

i know the D3 matchup has been closed but i must say you guys overlooked him way too much.........he can just grab you after d-air so foxs string combos arent saving us

its not hard, but its in no way easy.......im going to keep reading the other matchup you guys have written and see if i can add anything to them aswell

As for zelda/sheik..........i use alot of tilts against sheik, i keep my distance to avoid the lock, short hop some lasers, shine away his projectile, pivot fsmash is great for catching sheik off guard

zelda is a pain for me,but thankfully you can smash di her usmash, she can escape foxs u-tilt string so thats not a safe option, i like to fair occasionally since shes such a big target, but dont get predictable....a good zelda user will either up tilt or smash you when your above them.....jab combo is good, nair when spaced correctly becomes a pain for them, just be patient and pick your time to attack Zelda has alot of dangerous moves, if you play aggresively your going to lose


EDIT: if this hasnt been discovered im really surprised.........foxs up-b wins against Mks nado, space well enough to have enough time to get up-b off and you have stopped nado from the ground

nair to dsmash works well also at low %

wolf,luigi,olimar and sonic are matchups i have trouble with so if anyone can add to that itd be nice, i read what you guys said so far and its not that helpful

This an amazing thread though, very detailed and smart info for some character matchups

 

[M@v]

Zelda-60:40 for Zelda, it might even be worse than this. While Sheik has a devastating lock on Fox, Zelda just has priority on everything. Again she has to approach, so use whatever you can out of that. Zelda has very limited approach options.

I disagree with this. She can reflect your lasers, but more importantly, din's fire>lasers. You are approaching in this one.

 

[KheldarVII]

5:5 Zelda
45:55 Sheik

I find Zelda useless in the air so Fox can jump all over that. However, on the ground he needs to play smarter and will usually get overpowered.

Sheik, can perfectly match Fox in everything with a better projectile and gimping abilities so the favor is with Sheik. F-tilt lock could possibly push it to 4:6 but... well let's face it, you're gonna lose at least 1 stock to it.

 

[Zankoku]

4:6 is way too lenient. Ftilt is one of Sheik's staple moves, it's easy to hit with, and it leads to at least 40% damage to Fox on hit confirm. Decayed, it leads to a usmash KO.

 

[M@v]

5:5 Zelda
45:55 Sheik

I find Zelda useless in the air so Fox can jump all over that. However, on the ground he needs to play smarter and will usually get overpowered.

Sheik, can perfectly match Fox in everything with a better projectile and gimping abilities so the favor is with Sheik. F-tilt lock could possibly push it to 4:6 but... well let's face it, you're gonna lose at least 1 stock to it.

5:5 vs Zelda? >____>

 

[-Mars-]

I disagree with this. She can reflect your lasers, but more importantly, din's fire>lasers. You are approaching in this one.

Dins fire is not an anti-camping projectile, in fact it never does much of anything. As long as your strictly using SHDL and not standing lasers, you shouldn't get hit with it.....just shine it.

 

[Zhamy]

I find Zelda useless in the air so Fox can jump all over that. However, on the ground he needs to play smarter and will usually get overpowered.

Zelda can space herself pretty **** well, and in the air, she outprioritizes Fox hard.

On the ground, it's actually a tad less dangerous.

 

[M@v]

Zelda can space herself pretty **** well, and in the air, she outprioritizes Fox hard.

On the ground, it's actually a tad less dangerous.

Smart Zeldas stay grounded as much as possible. Only exception is against big guys;thunder kick ***** them.

 

[demodemo]

teh fact that sheik has no trouble killing fox from a forward tilt from 40% and beyond is a great disadvantage for fox, but before that, and if the sheik player can't ftilt right (it actually requires timing) it is even.

i would say 4:6

 

[Zhamy]

Smart Zeldas stay grounded as much as possible. Only exception is against big guys;thunder kick ***** them.

This depends on range, as I've found. They can both space pretty well, so aerial and grounded are both options. I've found that on the ground, however, it's easier to punish Zelda than in the air.

I actually don't have much experience fighting Sheik, so my mouth is shut on this matchup.

 

[M@v]

This depends on range, as I've found. They can both space pretty well, so aerial and grounded are both options. I've found that on the ground, however, it's easier to punish Zelda than in the air.

I actually don't have much experience fighting Sheik, so my mouth is shut on this matchup.

all that there is to it is sheik ***** you with ftilt lock

 

[Zhamy]

I was talking about Zelda, not Sheik. I thought we were treating these as separate matchups?