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Fox Match-Up General Discussion
- Thread starter M@v
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Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
No. Ankoku is right. Sheik has SO much on fox. Sheik can camp at least as well as fox, comboes him like crazy. Has no trouble breaking his defenses from any direction. and the Ftilt lock is essentially -1 stock if it connects. And fox is easy to connect with, the easiest to keep in it, the easiest to combo into Usmash and dies from usmash insanely early.
Quite frankly, fox should NOT be winning this matchup ever. It's at least 70:30... no worse than 80:20 though I think... it's not like ganondorf who sheik can conceivably take no damage against.
Quite frankly, fox should NOT be winning this matchup ever. It's at least 70:30... no worse than 80:20 though I think... it's not like ganondorf who sheik can conceivably take no damage against.
Basically........ftilt is not hard to land, Fox dies from ftilt. Like I said if it wasn't for ftilt this match would be pretty even. If you must play this matchup it is winnable....that's why I think it's only 35:65. But you always have to be conscious of ftilt. Ftilt combos out of almost all of her aerials, utilt, dtilt, jab cancels, sometimes even dash attack.
Lightning93
Smash Champion
Did I mention Shiek can easily avoid all of Fox's approaches or no? My main point is that Fox has really no waiting of killing a Shiek consistently to win a match, at all. You'll get lucky to land ONE shine spike. And even though you still have a LONG way to go. I say at least 20:80. I really hope someone can prove me wrong, because I do not want to keep losing to this match up.
TKD
Smash Lord
I've seen Sheik 0-death Falco via ftilt lock to usmash, if it's easier on Fox, it's a big disadvantage for Fox, for sure. 20-80 is WAY extreme. That's only against Zamus and Pikachu. Fox 30/70 Sheik. Fox doesn't even need to be below 40% like against Falco. ****...
Honestly TKD, think about this:
Which is easier? ZSS landing a downsmash or Sheik landing a f-tilt?
Sure, ZSS's can go 0-death, but it's much harder for ZSS to land a downsmash on Fox.
The sheik match-up should go like this:
Sheik gets a f-tilt>anything combo.
Sheik gets a 2nd f-tilt>anything combo.
Sheik gets a 3rd f-tilt>death combo.
Repeat each stock.
And its not even hard for Sheik to land a f-tilt on Fox. Sheik's great at getting Fox to approach and maneuvering around Fox. Heck, you can replace one of those f-tilt>anything parts with a fully-charged needle step or just lots of individual needles through smart camping. Heck, Sheik even has an easy time edgeguarding and gimping Fox (even though she shouldn't even need too).
ZSS has a hard time getting Fox to approach and maneuvering around Fox like Sheik does. So it's a lot harder to set up a downsmash>death than for Sheik to get a f-tilt>death. It isn't impossible though, and will very much happen. But at least Fox doesn't get edgeguarded as easily when it comes to ZSS.
I'd probably put both at 20-80. Fairly hopeless.
Which is easier? ZSS landing a downsmash or Sheik landing a f-tilt?
Sure, ZSS's can go 0-death, but it's much harder for ZSS to land a downsmash on Fox.
The sheik match-up should go like this:
Sheik gets a f-tilt>anything combo.
Sheik gets a 2nd f-tilt>anything combo.
Sheik gets a 3rd f-tilt>death combo.
Repeat each stock.
And its not even hard for Sheik to land a f-tilt on Fox. Sheik's great at getting Fox to approach and maneuvering around Fox. Heck, you can replace one of those f-tilt>anything parts with a fully-charged needle step or just lots of individual needles through smart camping. Heck, Sheik even has an easy time edgeguarding and gimping Fox (even though she shouldn't even need too).
ZSS has a hard time getting Fox to approach and maneuvering around Fox like Sheik does. So it's a lot harder to set up a downsmash>death than for Sheik to get a f-tilt>death. It isn't impossible though, and will very much happen. But at least Fox doesn't get edgeguarded as easily when it comes to ZSS.
I'd probably put both at 20-80. Fairly hopeless.
Summary: Fox dies at 77% before the hit to a fresh tipper usmash, which is 95% after the hit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyFEKFTPmwQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyFEKFTPmwQ
RPK
Smash Lord
Your best bet against those F-tilts is to DI INTO Shiek to try and get behind her. Or is that a bad idea? o.O
Fox's falling speed prevents him from doing anything about the f-tilt lock whether he's DIing correctly or not. Your best bet is actually f-tilting the Sheik user in the face with your fist. That'll probably end the lock every time.
Unless you're playing Ankoku. He's hardcore like that.
RPK
Smash Lord
F*** that...give him the Batman punch, aka Diddy's F-tilt...Best move in the game. Though really, if you do get caught, what would be the best way to DI out of it?
Fenrir VII
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2005
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I'm wondering, though...
DI towards worked almost every time there...
And the guide there didn't list DI towards and down together... Idk, it's scary, but completely inescapable? I don't really buy that.
The Fox in that vid was not too great at approaching...just btw.
I think anything worse than a 7-3 is uncalled for... but I have very little say as I don't have much sheik practice...sorry...
DI towards worked almost every time there...
And the guide there didn't list DI towards and down together... Idk, it's scary, but completely inescapable? I don't really buy that.
The Fox in that vid was not too great at approaching...just btw.
I think anything worse than a 7-3 is uncalled for... but I have very little say as I don't have much sheik practice...sorry...
M@v
Subarashii!
Minus ftilt lock, Fox is probably a little better than sheik. But the fact that fox is probably a better character doesnt matter at all because of ftilt lock.
RPK
Smash Lord
Player 1 used a female with skin tight clothing against Fox....Its super effective!!
Player 1 used an electric attack against Fox..Its super effective!!
Player 1 used an electric attack against Fox..Its super effective!!
For the spacies, if your caught in the air it's unescapable if the Sheik user does it right. In theory your best bet is to try to get behind Sheik, but Sheik could just turn around and resume........you have to hope the Sheik messes up. DI down and towards may work, i'll do some testing on it.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
if you're close enough to a ledge, you can DI down and off the ledge, but a good sheik can see that and just Dsmash.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
25:75 Sheik
40:60 Zelda
my opinion at least.
20:80 Zelda/Sheik
since a sheik willing to change the switch to zelda can KO fox with virtually anything if he manages to survive a tilt lock -> usmash combo. Think of Zelda/sheik, in this case, as an insurance policy. You'd stay sheik pretty much the whole time, but if fox ever managed to live to triple digits, Zelda can EASILY pick up the scraps and go right back to sheik.
40:60 Zelda
my opinion at least.
20:80 Zelda/Sheik
since a sheik willing to change the switch to zelda can KO fox with virtually anything if he manages to survive a tilt lock -> usmash combo. Think of Zelda/sheik, in this case, as an insurance policy. You'd stay sheik pretty much the whole time, but if fox ever managed to live to triple digits, Zelda can EASILY pick up the scraps and go right back to sheik.
Sheik is no worse than 70:30. This is a hard counter matchup, like it or not.
Lightning93
Smash Champion
I would still have to say 80:20 personally, but I may be just playing a REALLY good Shiek. I approach any way possible, yet all Shiek has to do is shield, trap you with her Nuetral A first two combo punches, shield-cancel grab, throw you away, and catch you with a tilt. I mean seriously Fox has a hard time avoiding any of Shiek's attacks.
And as for DIing the f-tilt lock, both me and the Shiek main agree our best bet is to DI towards them, because it's not so easy for Shiek to stop, turn around, and continue the lock without having Fox escape. But by then you already have the damage racked up anyways, but I think you have 20% less.
What we really need here is for a really good Fox to play a really good Shiek so we can assess the battle and determine what works and what doesn't.
Here's the really good Shiek I fight all of the time:
http://www.smashboards.com/member.php?u=114328
And as for DIing the f-tilt lock, both me and the Shiek main agree our best bet is to DI towards them, because it's not so easy for Shiek to stop, turn around, and continue the lock without having Fox escape. But by then you already have the damage racked up anyways, but I think you have 20% less.
What we really need here is for a really good Fox to play a really good Shiek so we can assess the battle and determine what works and what doesn't.
Here's the really good Shiek I fight all of the time:
http://www.smashboards.com/member.php?u=114328
M@v
Subarashii!
Yeah this is pretty much ****, either one you fight :/
gantrain05
Smash Master
i believe its a pretty good advantage to olimar, i second olimar and my 4th is fox, also 2 of my friends and alot of people at the local tourneys i go to play fox, and i can't say i've ever lost that matchu, it sucks for fox, his blaster wont stop the pikmin like falco or wolfs, and his recovery is almost never safe, if he sweetspots the edge he still faces the problem of getting up thru pikmin spam, Fsmash Spam, and grab spam, although fox can do a decent job of gimping olimar as well, and fox's quick attacks can become kind of a problem to olimars who don't know the matchup very well. but im gonna have to give this one a 60-40 olimar.
M@v
Subarashii!
in all my experiences vs olimar it has seemed pretty even to me. But yeah, lets wrap up Zelda sheik. Does 40:60 Zelda and 25:75 Sheik sound good?
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
wow look at the sheik **** >__> but i guess thats accurate.
M@v
Subarashii!
Zelda sheik ended. Zelda 40:60 Sheik-25:75
Upon Request, we will do Lolimar next.
I remember a while back we talked to the olimar boards and we both agreed this was around even....we didnt get too much into it though, so lets hammer this out. I honestly think its even, Olimar has never given me too much trouble. But like I said, lets analyze this and find out.
Upon Request, we will do Lolimar next.
I remember a while back we talked to the olimar boards and we both agreed this was around even....we didnt get too much into it though, so lets hammer this out. I honestly think its even, Olimar has never given me too much trouble. But like I said, lets analyze this and find out.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
yeah... that sounds splendid.
I say 80:20 for anyone who dual mains (i.e. can and WILL use both zelda and sheik wherever it is strategically beneficial to do so.)
so... in summary:
75:25 Sheik
60:40 Zelda
80:20 Zelda/Sheik
??? disagreements?
none from me.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
oops... ignore this post
KheldarVII
Smash Ace
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFHiFu3_M84
Roughly 0:59, blaster stops red pikmin dead in its tracks from a pikmin throw. Unless of course you meant from smashes. You shouldn't be lasering smashes. Also, I've dodged a grab with a U-smash before. It seems like I just either moved my hurtbox or perhaps I negated its sweetspot with a solid kick.
I also call this matchup even as Fox can blitz the hell out of Olimar or Olimar can brick wall Fox. Each character's U-smash will kill at early percentages.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
I know when I went to the tourney last weekend with pyro, he mained olimar and got beaten by a fox.
goldemblem
Smash Apprentice
When the game came out i believed this matchup was in favor to Olimar, but after playing a while against Olimars, i can say that it's a little in favor of Fox, probably 60:40
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
EEEP ignore me. thos are the pages it's on. I completely misread that. carry on.
Lightning93
Smash Champion
Olimar hasn't given me much problems either. Easily gimpable and comboable. However after watching that last vid I suggest you don't approach with an f-air unless Olimar is in the air just because he is so dang short. I'm even surprised he can manage to fight even with all the strength it must take to hold that huge head up. Not to mention the nose... but anyways, don't be afraid to approach with d-airs either. Just because it's the most expected Fox move it still works wonders.
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