Fox Match-Up General Discussion

[super_bacon807]

Overall, who has a better camping game??

 

[DMG]

Olimar beats Olimar... His range is **** vs Fox, it's not even funny. I would put it as 40 : 60 for Olimar. Fox getting past Olimar's range is pretty tough for him.

 

[M@v]

Olimar is a great character with a huge handicap: his recovery. It limits him sooooo much.

Offtopic: Riot up here at PSU since we beat OSU. Its finally dying down. Yeah....People I know have been getting maced....*******.

 

[-Mars-]

Wow some people are morons, why the hell would you riot over a football game?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Olimar is a great character with a huge handicap: his recovery. It limits him sooooo much.

Offtopic: Riot up here at PSU since we beat OSU. Its finally dying down. Yeah....People I know have been getting maced....*******.

CURSE YOU

*is staunch OSU supporter*

but honestly.. I like Penn state. as long as they are going to beat us, I hope the go all the way

 

[M@v]

Wow some people are morons, why the hell would you riot over a football game?

we are nuts....yeah some light poles came down and stuff. We havent beaten OSU at their place since 1978....and yeah I got pics and vids. As soon as I get them on my laptop back at my dorm I will link them.
(Im still at my fraternity house right now....the riots in between me and my dorm. If it doesn't die out in an hour or so im just going to crash here). It should be dead soon though.

 

[Zhamy]

ON topic-

Offstage: OLIMAR RECOVERY SUCKS. GIMP GIMP GIMP GIMP GIMP

Onstage: I do not know; I have not played many good Olimars.

 

[DMG]

Pivot Grabs and Grabs in general > Fox. Yeah he pretty much sucks off stage (He can Whistle a lot of stuff though) but on stage you will be hard pressed to get past his range. He's also really short, so SH lasers won't work as well unless you time them to hit his specific height.

 

[-Mars-]

Pivot Grabs and Grabs in general > Fox. Yeah he pretty much sucks off stage (He can Whistle a lot of stuff though) but on stage you will be hard pressed to get past his range. He's also really short, so SH lasers won't work as well unless you time them to hit his specific height.

All of this is true, you can nair to still hit him when he whistles though. In fact nair off the stage will easily gimp Oli.

His range is a pain in the a$$, don't try going above him.......uair and usmash are better than anything Fox can do from up there.

Like I said before nair to jab to anything is a great approach against Olimar. Nair for any Pikmin flying at you and then the jabs prevent you from being shield grabbed. Actually is even ok to do the rapid jabs in this matchup as a means of damage racking.

 

[DMG]

All of this is true, you can nair to still hit him when he whistles though. In fact nair off the stage will easily gimp Oli.

Whistle guards against that I thought? Or do you mean Fair?

His range is a pain in the a$$, don't try going above him.......uair and usmash are better than anything Fox can do from up there.

That's where it's tricky, because it's dangerous to approach from above, and you can't just run up to him and try to shield his attacks with a grab range that huge, so you gotta go for a somewhat Diagonal approach, and a running Olimar will make it hard for Fox to hit with something at that angle. So it really is like a guessing game for Fox IMO, but Olimar has an easier time with his options.

Like I said before nair to jab to anything is a great approach against Olimar. Nair for any Pikmin flying at you and then the jabs prevent you from being shield grabbed. Actually is even ok to do the rapid jabs in this matchup as a means of damage racking.

He can shield grab you on the way down before you hit the ground, or he can shield your jab which doesn't put Fox in the best of spots. It might work sometimes, but it's not a reliable approach. It would also suck if you run in for a Nair and get pivot grabbed by Olimar lol.

 

[DanGR]

I played Moogle, a great Fox player (that recently converted back over to melee )

-Pivotgrabs are the sole reason why I think it's advantaged Olimar. Oli can literally pivotgrab all of Fox's approaches without worry of being punished.
-Also, his range just overwhelms Fox's poor range.

Those are the two biggest points imo.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i thought Fox Dair goes through Olimars Usmash though doesn't it?

 

[DanGR]

It does^.

10char

 

[§witch]

If oli has the advantage, it's by a small margin, and DMG, fox's nair is a sex kick, I think that's what marsulas is saying.

 

[DanGR]

If oli has the advantage, it's by a small margin, and DMG, fox's nair is a sex kick, I think that's what marsulas is saying.

The hitbox won't stay out after the whistle has been used. That only applies to multihit attacks.

 

[§witch]

Alright, I wasn't sure, then fair is our best bet. Even though it has upwards knockback, and dair if it's safe.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

hey. looks like you only put sheik up in your matchup summary

Zelda and Zelda/Sheik are both absent

 

[M@v]

hey. looks like you only put sheik up in your matchup summary

Zelda and Zelda/Sheik are both absent

IT says in highlighted yellow
ZELDA-blahblahblah

SHEIK-blahblahblah

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

IT says in highlighted yellow
ZELDA-blahblahblah

SHEIK-blahblahblah

oh I know... but at the top of the list where you have all the matchups grouped... you put sheik in the 25:75 column... but the 40:60 column is still just falco... you forgot to add Zelda.

and there's no Zelda+Sheik at all if you were planning on putting that in.

 

[asob4]

oli's uptilt stops fox's dair
we got range
your lazers don't affect us as bad as falco's do
pivot grabs ftw

we will get back to the stage by any means necessary. a lot of your moves send upward, no? that's good for us (besides upsmash of course)
we'll whistle any attempt at edge guarding
a surprise shine is your best bet, but be wary

all i got, don't wanna go in depth
either 60-40 oli's or MAYBE 55-45 oli

 

[M@v]

oli's uptilt stops fox's dair
we got range
your lazers don't affect us as bad as falco's do
pivot grabs ftw

we will get back to the stage by any means necessary. a lot of your moves send upward, no? that's good for us (besides upsmash of course)
we'll whistle any attempt at edge guarding
a surprise shine is your best bet, but be wary

all i got, don't wanna go in depth
either 60-40 oli's or MAYBE 55-45 oli

Our three main edgeguard tools are shine, nair, and fair.

shine sends you downward on an angle
Nair sends you sideways
Fair sends you up.
If a fox uses fair to edgeguard you please let me know, so I can go beat the crap out of him.

Also, thanks hedgedawg. fixed it.

 

[Lightning93]

Hmm, yes I can imagine how him canceling your air approaches can be a problem... plus the fact that I have never played an Olimar that whistles... what are our advantages over Oli?

 

[asob4]

i can't think of any for fox....

maybe kill early???

 

[Zhamy]

Just throwing this out here just so discussions get started. This may or may not be true.

-Nair stops thrown Pikmin cold, and greatly lessens the danger of approaching.
-Fox can bait Olimar just outside of smash/grab range
-Downsmash ***** Olimar with its trajectory
-Offstage, Fox can bait whistle with shine

 

[asob4]

the danger of approaching oli is not pikmin toss, but the grabs and smashes

down smash is scary, but we are amazing at spacing :D lol
also dair becomes near useless vs us
we can spam whistle. if we WAC a shine we'll retaliate if possible. spike maybe??
we can upb ledgehog you as well meaning you need to recover onto the stage, and we'll punish landing lag if possible

i'm sure i missed some things :/

 

[Zhamy]

we can spam whistle. if we WAC a shine we'll retaliate if possible. spike maybe??

What I mean by baiting with Shine is that we simply stop close to you and Shine to stop momentum, making you waste Whistle's super armor. Fox is maneuverable enough when edgeguarding to afford that.

 

[asob4]

i suppose
but we might not do that more than once

buuut that's all dependent on mind games and not the game itself

 

[Fenrir VII]

Ok...first of all, Fox's dair goes through both usmash and uair... it hits the pikmin, stopping the attack, and then keeps attacking Olimar... so yeah, that's a wrecker.
Oli's utilt...I believe....beats dair... but that's a very baitable move, so having it be the only one that beats a dair straightup is bad for Oli.

pivot grabs are great, sure... but really not hard to predict and punish if that's the only thing Oli relies on...especially since a spot dodge gives Fox an usmash here... Like yeah, it's great against normal approaqches, but consider a Fox who knows it's coming and can attack farther back than he normally would... If you don't pivot grab, he hits a nair or something behind your shield...if you do, he hits you. That simply can't be your sole strat here....because Fox can mindgame it too. it doesn't beat every approach he has...

It's a great strat for Oli in this match though. not unbeatable, but very nice.

Oli combos very simlarly to Fox, basically...They're both capable of putting a lot of % on in a short amount of time....and they both have killing moves...and they're both light. ha

This match really seems to change Oli's game... he has to use a lot of tilt and grabs mainly, because Fox has tools that just override his other strats a lot of the time. Fox has NO problem with a camping Olimar if a pikmin gets on him, Shine will usually knock it off and be very safe for fox. Blaster is farther reaching, and a bit faster and more reliable... so Fox is a slightly better camper here.

Olimar has more range on the ground...so his spacing issues with grabs and fsmashes...and dsmashes are quite good. Fox generally beats him in the air with more range and somewhat more priority, since he can hit the pikmin and keep attacking with a number of his moves.

The real problem in this match is that Fox is in the upper echelon of edgeguarders in this game... and Olimar has one of the very worst recoveries in the game. Fox also has moves that send out in a VERY bad angle for Olimar...namely dsmash, which will be comboing out of dair around 70%. one dsmash and an edgehog is death for Oli... normally, a fthrow off the ledge to a dair or bair means death for him too. Nair sometimes... shine definitely.

Fair should never be used for Fox... really not necessary. Oli is fairly easy to combo without it...and he's so small anyway... it's not a good edgeguarding tool either.

dair is amazing for edgeguarding. bair is a killer.


Every Olimar will try to wreck approaches with the reverse pivot grabs... it's a very good strat. Learn to predict that, and it's candy you land a dair to almost anything you want... you get him off stage and he's dead.

Yes, it becomes a bit of an approaching mindgame... just be smart.

Olimar's best thing in this match is his combo-ability and kill moves mixed with superior range, but Fox's strange priorities and his ability to kill Olimar are just ridiculous.

It's seriously in Fox's favor.


On zelda and Sheik... I guess those numbers are right. I want to play a Sheik at some point to see, but for now, sure. I don't know that a transforming Zelda/Sheik would do any better than just Sheik, though... so not sure why that would be higher...but whatevs.

 

[Zhamy]

buuut that's all dependent on mind games and not the game itself

I guess, partially. On the other hand, the shine is one of Fox's tools, and you'll see him use it often that way. Just something to keep in mind, rather than actual matchup info.

Ok...first of all, Fox's dair goes through both usmash and uair... it hits the pikmin, stopping the attack, and then keeps attacking Olimar... so yeah, that's a wrecker.

Only if you come straight down on the Pikmin, otherwise, they'll plow through.

Fair should never be used for Fox... really not necessary.

I disagree, while you may not hit with all four kicks, it's still nice to slap some damage on Olimar. Offstage, it's not as useful.

Also, Olimar has longer range in general, and makes it especially difficult for Fox to get into that range. It's very, very difficult for Fox to get inside, and that's the main reason this matchup is in Olimar's favor. Fox doesn't have a safe approach that will force Olimar into a bad position. That being said, it's not as bad as approaching some other characters.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

On zelda and Sheik... I guess those numbers are right. I want to play a Sheik at some point to see, but for now, sure. I don't know that a transforming Zelda/Sheik would do any better than just Sheik, though... so not sure why that would be higher...but whatevs.

theres always a chance fox will survive a tilt lock -> usmash combo... transforming to zelda if this happens means you can kill fox in pretty much one hit, and refresh all of sheik's moves. chances are a Zelda/Sheik will stay straight sheik, but the flexability affords a little more of a cushion I think.

 

[asob4]

uptilt isn't very punishable. it's fast and a multihit

you usually can't see the pivot grab cause the pikmin and you'd be flustered with matched pikmin.

shine is ever so scary, and we will try hard to avoid dsmash knowing how deadly it is.

we can WAC bair and nair, best bet is shine plain and simple

 

[DMG]

Fenrir, Fox does not have the advantage over Olimar lol.

All I heard about getting past Olimar's grab range is to just "bait" or predict it. That's not a good answer to getting past someone's range when they can abuse it like Olimar can. Usmash will beat out Dair if you do not hit the pikmin itself but still roam into the hitbox area.

I've heard about Fox killing Olimar, but I didn't hear of a way to find a real opening or a way to get inside and actually land a kill move. Yeah Dsmash might send him at a nasty angle, but that is irrelevant if you can't reliably get past his range first.

 

[M@v]

Like I said, I dont see either fox or olimar having a noticeable advantage here....I have never had much trouble with the matchup. When I lose its usually to someone I know is better than me. I mean if fox is at a disadvantage its not much... 4:6 at the very worst.

 

[DMG]

Like I said, I dont see either fox or olimar having a noticeable advantage here....I have never had much trouble with the matchup. When I lose its usually to someone I know is better than me. I mean if fox is at a disadvantage its not much... 4:6 at the very worst.

4 : 6 sounds fairly accurate, I think it might be slightly more but the general consensus is that Olimar does have the advantage, even if by just a small margin.

 

[Zhamy]

I haven't seen anything horribly gamebreaking for either side, although Olimar simply has a slightly easier time due to range.

55:45 Olimar? or 60:40 Olimar?

 

[Lightning93]

Hmm if anything I would agree 55:45, it would seem as if Olimar doesn't have THAT much of an advantage, they seem pretty equal.

 

[-Mars-]

SH nair behind Olimars shield works decent.........uhhhh. Seriously everyone keeps asking for ways for Fox to approach, yet whenever we give some valid reasons they're written off as mindgames. Technically there is plenty of things I could do. I could SHAD and buffer an utilt, I could SHAD behind Oli's shield. I can always shinestall above Oli's head, don't tell me that's too predictable. If I don't feel like I can land the dair or if oli steps to the side I can just DI away with no harm whatsoever.

I don't think Fox needs to be approaching all that much, he outcamps Olimar easily so the whole range factor isn't really that important to me. Fox is going to have range problems in most of his matchups, that's why he's blessed with incredible speed. Range becomes much less of a factor when you have the speed to manuever around it.

 

[Fenrir VII]

uhhhh. Seriously everyone keeps asking for ways for Fox to approach, yet whenever we give some valid reasons they're written off as mindgames. Technically there is plenty of things I could do. I could SHAD and buffer an utilt, I could SHAD behind Oli's shield. I can always shinestall above Oli's head, don't tell me that's too predictable. If I don't feel like I can land the dair or if oli steps to the side I can just DI away with no harm whatsoever.

Epic truth.

Seriously in this match, a full hop is a valid approach.

I said the dair beats usmash and uair...and your counter arguments are that it has to hit the center... uh... should it not hit the pikmin EVERY time if the Fox is using it? I mean, sure, if Fox tries to get out of a combo from Olimar with dair, it might not work, but as an offensive tool, it is VERY valid.

Shine stall is also incredibly valid as Olimar really has nothing against it...

So there.. you're inside olimar's range... Now, Fox can combo him quite easily... and once he gets inside a certain range, it's very hard for Olimar to gain breathing room again. Fox's continuation techs go through the roof in this match...

So assuming the Fox doesn't run into a pivot grab every single time...which, if we are discussing higher level play he shouldn't...I don't see how oli can beat him here.

I have played this match quite a few times with Fearless, who placed 5th or 7th at FAST...Fl's large tournament a couple months back...
He won a MM with Hylian.
And I 2 or three stock him every time we play.

I know this is a single match example, and shouldn't be used...but I'm trying to establish the fact that I do know the matchup.
There are a few more Olis down here in FL who I beat pretty hard, too.

Fearless said that he and Inui talked about it and that Inui believed the match to be something like a 9-1 in Fox's favor...

Now I realize that this is extreme case... but I'm not just forming these opinions out of nowhere...


Olimar has more range than Fox, but overall, Fox has a better air game...that overrides a few of Oli's ground options, too.
Fox's attacks are as a whole faster than Oli's
Fox can edgeguard Olimar like nothing.
Fox can get olimar to Dair dsmash % very quickly.
Olimar's grab has great range, but slowish speed, so it's fairly easy to avoid.
in higher level play, Fox should be able to get around a single defensive tactc (pivot grab)

 

[asob4]

if you get in, our quick *** jab will knock you away.

dair is not reliable as it can be uptilted or we'll pivot grab
uptilt also beats your nair, we can upsmash through your shine stall unless you're waaay above us, in which case we will retreat.

the only thing you have in the air over us (imo) is nair and MAYBE dair
our fair and bair are beastly and uair will beat your dair (it was said somewhere, not from an olimainer, that oli's uair goes through every dair except D3's)
if it can go through key, i'm sure as hell it will go through a little spin kick

you can't out camp us
only wolf can really do that. yellows will stay latch through shine and your lasers won't bother us. to me, damage done to me isn't as important as damage i do to you, only because i have WAC.
if you shine them back, we will approach/mindgame (though irrelevant) and get a grab or something else

we can chain grab you to 30 then fair for the ~43%
then a few latches and you're in kill range. or just combo you to 70 with dthrow->usmash->uair->uair->upb

building damage is easier for us than it is for you because we can keep you away so you will not be able to build the damage
i believe we can avoid your few kill moves easier than you can avoid our surplus of kill moves
you're reliant on 2-3 moves for a death. we can kill you with ~8, some at absurdly low percents (blue bthrow, purple uthrow)

tear it apart, do what you will, i'm arguing my point
it's 60-40 oli and i have played good fox's to test a lot of this out
the only sure fire way they killed me was a lucky dair->usmash

 

[DMG]

snip

I concur, 60 : 40 seems about right.