M@v
Subarashii!
whoops. sorry.
Against zelda: It is VERY hard to approach her. Usmash is a godly move. You have to wait for openings here and be very patient in this matchup, otherwise you are getting punished hard.
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Fox Match-Up General Discussion
- Thread starter M@v
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Against zelda: It is VERY hard to approach her. Usmash is a godly move. You have to wait for openings here and be very patient in this matchup, otherwise you are getting punished hard.
Make her approach you...........why do you keep talking about Fox approaching? Zeldas approach options are very limited.
ZeroFox
Smash Lord
Great job, very good read. *applauds*
M@v
Subarashii!
ummmm yeahh. You have to approach here. She out camps you. You can blaster all you want, but she can naryu's love it. Then her projectile actually hurts badly, yours doesnt. She is going to knock you out of your spamming; you cant knock her out of it. Now if this was falco we were talking about, then you could absolutely force her to approach.
[/quote]ummmm yeahh. You have to approach here. She out camps you. You can blaster all you want, but she can naryu's love it. Then her projectile actually hurts badly, yours doesnt. She is going to knock you out of your spamming; you cant knock her out of it. Now if this was falco we were talking about, then you could absolutely force her to approach.[/quote]
This comes solely from play experience in this matchup, as I have yet to play a very good Zelda player. Read with caution and a grain of salt.
Zelda has a tiny dead zone about midrange where it's dangerous for her to camp projectiles, etc, and spacing yourself there makes Zelda come toward you the other 35-40%. I punish that haaard.
This comes solely from play experience in this matchup, as I have yet to play a very good Zelda player. Read with caution and a grain of salt.
Zelda has a tiny dead zone about midrange where it's dangerous for her to camp projectiles, etc, and spacing yourself there makes Zelda come toward you the other 35-40%. I punish that haaard.
KheldarVII
Smash Ace
Zelda out camps Fox? That's cute.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
I'd change to Zelda from sheik if fox gets to >100 damage since, at that point, it's not worth it to try to tilt lock when you could just be zelda and kill with anything.
I find the matchup easy either way, but I agree with ankoku for the most part here:
Both Zelda and Sheik are so comfortable against fox that they don't really NEED to change.
Fenrir VII
Smash Master
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Saying Zelda has hope of outcamping Fox is ridiculous. lol.
We are talking about a Fox that doesn't stand and shoot, right?
We are talking about a Fox that doesn't stand and shoot, right?
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
at max blaster range Zelda can't outcamp Fox, weather hes standing and shooting or SHdouble/triple lasering. cause the lasers won't reach Fox from max range. so no he doesn't have to approach, if Zelda is Dinning away from extreme long range. its just makes the match very long and drawn out if it turns into a camp war.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
Fox has to approach in that Fox's range is far inferior to zelda's.
if she gets close enough that he can't blaster safely, he'll have a hell of a time getting in on her.
if she gets close enough that he can't blaster safely, he'll have a hell of a time getting in on her.
Fenrir VII
Smash Master
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At max range, Fox can SHDL and shield before any retaliation...he can blaster even between Nayru's Loves...no big deal
At a mid range, if she Nayru's Loves a laser, he can land a grab on her fairly easily... and again, he can still shield/shine din's fire without any thought of punishment because her winddown is too great.
Honestly, Din's Fire is not a camping move against people with projectiles. Maybe against characters like Bowser or even Marth, but not anybody who can put damage out faster than she can... yes, it hurts when it hits, but it should never hit. that's really not unreasonable to say.
It's a great zoning/edgeguarding tool against a large number of characters, and I can see it being a huge problem for characters like Ike, but otherwise, it's not a camping tool. it's simply not. People who think it is misunderstand the move. It's far too easy for Fox to get around/inside it for it to be a camper...and he can just put damage on you, then block your attack and rinse and repeat.
If Zelda seriously starts Loving the lasers (love that wording there), then Fox starts getting free attacks... That would be useful against like Falco or Pit, but Fox's lasers do no knockback, so there's nothing to stop him from approaching after a Love from a range where his laser would actually hit him.
just a bad camping match For Zelda... which leads to her having to approach, which leaves a LOT to be desired as a character.
It took me a while, but I finally realized that Zelda does not do better than she does because of a few things:
1. her recovery...which is godly until somebody hogs, then gets a free smash
2. her inability to approach well without a good camping option.
3. her slower running speed
It really lands her in this huge predicament against faster characters...esp those with projectiles.
She does take away a lot of Fox's approaching options, which can also be limited, but a running shield grab for Fox beats a whole lot of what she has...
And then she's light. If she gets in an area where she has to upB back onto the stage, it's a free smash for Fox. so a drill dsmash from Fox about 70 leads to a hog usmash death.
Really, it's not a bad match, as a single character. I really don't mind Zelda at all.
Sheik is interesting. Again, bad recovery options, but at least she has a chain to keep you guessing... I don't have too much exp against Sheik, so I can't talk much there... is the tilt lock truly inescapable? I thought there was an anti-DI to it?
At a mid range, if she Nayru's Loves a laser, he can land a grab on her fairly easily... and again, he can still shield/shine din's fire without any thought of punishment because her winddown is too great.
Honestly, Din's Fire is not a camping move against people with projectiles. Maybe against characters like Bowser or even Marth, but not anybody who can put damage out faster than she can... yes, it hurts when it hits, but it should never hit. that's really not unreasonable to say.
It's a great zoning/edgeguarding tool against a large number of characters, and I can see it being a huge problem for characters like Ike, but otherwise, it's not a camping tool. it's simply not. People who think it is misunderstand the move. It's far too easy for Fox to get around/inside it for it to be a camper...and he can just put damage on you, then block your attack and rinse and repeat.
If Zelda seriously starts Loving the lasers (love that wording there), then Fox starts getting free attacks... That would be useful against like Falco or Pit, but Fox's lasers do no knockback, so there's nothing to stop him from approaching after a Love from a range where his laser would actually hit him.
just a bad camping match For Zelda... which leads to her having to approach, which leaves a LOT to be desired as a character.
It took me a while, but I finally realized that Zelda does not do better than she does because of a few things:
1. her recovery...which is godly until somebody hogs, then gets a free smash
2. her inability to approach well without a good camping option.
3. her slower running speed
It really lands her in this huge predicament against faster characters...esp those with projectiles.
She does take away a lot of Fox's approaching options, which can also be limited, but a running shield grab for Fox beats a whole lot of what she has...
And then she's light. If she gets in an area where she has to upB back onto the stage, it's a free smash for Fox. so a drill dsmash from Fox about 70 leads to a hog usmash death.
Really, it's not a bad match, as a single character. I really don't mind Zelda at all.
Sheik is interesting. Again, bad recovery options, but at least she has a chain to keep you guessing... I don't have too much exp against Sheik, so I can't talk much there... is the tilt lock truly inescapable? I thought there was an anti-DI to it?
M@v
Subarashii!
I have always thought Zelda's recovery sucked, not because of range, but because of how easy it is to gimp her. And like you said, if you edgehog, she has to go for the stage. Free hit.
I always try to recover as sheik whenever possible.
I always try to recover as sheik whenever possible.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199888
At best damage is reduced to around 40% from one lock... and it doesn't prevent Sheik from hitting you with ftilt again.
Fenrir VII
Smash Master
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First of all, I was posting my thoughts on stuff that hadn't been said...so I didn't go into the entire match. I'm kinda done with doing that, if people aren't going to care anyway.
Secondly, she doesn't outprioritize and space Fox in the air. Not sure why you think that. Toe is dangerous, yes. but it's reach is not longer than a Fox bair or Fair...
If Fox is below her, she has a huge problem, too...due to her mostly useless dair against him...
and if he's above here in the air, he should never try to come down straight with a dair...
So basically, no I didn't forget...I just don't agree with that statement...
And completely beside that... I don't really think Fox needs the air so much in this match... To jump over smashes, sure...but then she's not in the air... so I don't get why you felt a need to call me out on that.
If you mean she outzones him from the air...if he's on the ground, then no...def not.
Fox needs to shove his entire body for Bair to have the same "reach" as a Zelda kick, and Fair doesn't come close.
Why would Zelda be directly above him? If she can get past her midrange dead zone, then she does outspace him in the air with proper use. She can also FFAD through Uair if she needs to reset spacing.
And he doesn't have many other options, so that means he's being outspaced and getting his options limited.
Again - Zelda has a dead zone in mid range, but once she gets past that, she can do a nasty number on Fox. It's much easier for her to do that from the air than from the ground.
I agree, I don't know how many times I have to explain that dins fire is not for camping. The only thing it does is hamper characters with bad recoveries and even then there are easier methods of edgehogging you could be employing.
Zeldas recovery is pretty bad, but she can throw in a couple Naryus for stalling if she's not too far from the stage. As long as Zelda isn't WAY far out, her recovery actually isn't that bad.
I would like for you to explain how a running shield grab beats what she has. If you run into a shield, your shield will take a a full fsmash....pushing you away. Then she has dtilt and her jabs which can be used very fast and are good for shield poking.
M@v
Subarashii!
Overhaul time. 
We are not going to show any discussions or summaries until they are done with and discussed from now on. That way we ALL agree on the matchups. I will have this fully converted in 15 minutes.
Edit: Done =P
We are not going to show any discussions or summaries until they are done with and discussed from now on. That way we ALL agree on the matchups. I will have this fully converted in 15 minutes.Edit: Done =P
Lightning93
Smash Champion
If you guys need more experience on the Fox-Shiek matchup I can set you up with my friend. He is supposedly the best Shiek player anyone has ever seen at the last Brawl tournament in Anaheim, California. Personally, his Shiek ***** my Fox, he even let me TRY to DI out of his tilt-lock, it's not possible. You can try to DI left or right out of the kicks, but all Shiek has to do is either turn the other way or u-tilt. And from there she can do anything she wants. U-tilt is a big pain after tilt-locks because it flings you up into the air and leaves you very vulnerable to aerials, which eventually knock you off the edge and leaves you open for edge gaurds. If you need to know what I'm talking about just ask me for a math set-up. I think it would really help this discussion if some of you better Fox players out there play him.
Of course tilt-locks are not the only problem, Shiek has deadly aerial combos and can play massive mindgame kills with her vanish, needles, and boost-smash combined. Her arsenal is just a big pain, I don't even have fun while playing one.
Of course tilt-locks are not the only problem, Shiek has deadly aerial combos and can play massive mindgame kills with her vanish, needles, and boost-smash combined. Her arsenal is just a big pain, I don't even have fun while playing one.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
I fought a fox in the tourney. He was only slightly disadvantaged against sheik... then I tilt locked him and he lost a stock. and then I repeated the formula. Sheik ***** fox for the reasons already stated. And Zelda has no trouble with him whatsoever if he somehow manages to get triple digit damage before you can tilt lock him with sheik.
A2ZOMG
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Zelda only has Smash attacks on Fox.
Sheik is broken nonsense vs Fox.
Basically, any smart player is not going to use Zelda in a serious match against Fox (if Fox had any particularly good matchups, I'd suggest looking at Zelda, except for the fact she will never be used against him). They will use Sheik and be ultra gay with F-tilt lock.
Sheik is broken nonsense vs Fox.
Basically, any smart player is not going to use Zelda in a serious match against Fox (if Fox had any particularly good matchups, I'd suggest looking at Zelda, except for the fact she will never be used against him). They will use Sheik and be ultra gay with F-tilt lock.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
More like fox only has speed on Zelda. Pretty much everything Zelda has both outranges and outpowers you on any occasion. she hates being in the air above you, but, otherwise, fox is no problem at all. When grounded, you don't have anything that'll get through zelda's anything. you COULD laser spam, but she can put herself in a range where you'll get punished for bringing the blaster out... and then what? honestly fox HAS to bait zelda or he's just not going to win against her.
And against sheik, well, goodbye fox.
goldemblem
Smash Apprentice
The better option to go against a Zelda/Shiek it's camping, but i can't stand that idea, against zelda i like to camp and look for an oppening, against shiek I do the same, but i am always wary for not getting into his Ftilt lock, it's a hard matchup no matter if it's zelda or shiek, but zelda gives an easier time
This is a bit too toward Zelda. Fox is fast enough to punish quite a few of Zelda's moves, and again - she has a dead range where she can't safely bring out Din's Fire or hit effectively with her attacks. Fox has to maintain control of that zone.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
yeah but that's a dead spot for fox too... and only an idiot of a zelda would throw out anything but a decoy din's in that range.
Fox is fast enough to punish some of zelda's moves, but, if she's not whiffing, he's not going to get inside.
A Zelda player who doesn't whiff is a Zelda player who's more psychically blessed than Azen Zagenite.
Lol, yes Zelda players do whiff a lot. Fox can capatalize on her mistakes if she whiffs on fsmash,naryus, ftilt, utilt, sometimes even usmash. You won't get anything if you rush in after dsmash and dtilt.
That's one thing Fox does have, shinestalling can lead to some dairs because most Zelda players instinctively use usmash everytime someone is above them.
That's one thing Fox does have, shinestalling can lead to some dairs because most Zelda players instinctively use usmash everytime someone is above them.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
A valid point Ankoku, however, even once Zelda DOES whiff, fox isn't going to keep her in his paws forever. She'll get him off of her fairly quickly and he'll have to wat for ANOTHER exploitable whiff before he can get in again. And if he misjudges just how "open" an opening is, well then he'll take some damage.
Quite simply, Zelda damages AND KOs Fox more efficiently than he does to her. I won't deny that sheik is a smart choice, But Zelda isn't a bad one. Fox is going to have his hands full no matter WHICH form you chose.
As such, I like to chose my charcter based on my oponent's style:
Agressive foxes get to meet my Zelda who stonewalls most of their approaches.
Defensive foxes meet sheik, who goes right through their defenses and Ftilt locks them
Let me elaborate. A matchup should not take into things like mindgames and playstyle. However, it cannot assume both players are perfect, either (if they were, they'd both know exactly what would happen and what to do, so neither player would bother playing). When you view Zelda's attacks, you have to take into account how useful they are when it comes to approach and response, and how punishable they are on whiff. You then have to view how easily Fox can punish a whiffed attack, and how effectively Fox can capitalize on it. Also view vice versa on Fox's attacks and Zelda's punishment game.
Other than that, continue discussing the matchups.
Other than that, continue discussing the matchups.
M@v
Subarashii!
(I am going to be talking moreso tips vs zelda than the matchup itself)
Agreed. Vs Zelda, fox's best bet is to wait for openings. Zelda's priority owns fox. But when she whiffs, fox is more than capable of punishing. Not much I can say other than wait for openings; Zelda and Fox can both force the other to approach; it depends on who plays better. And play VERY smart and patient with fox here. One of my good wifi buds(silfer) mains zelda/sheik. He usually uses Zelda on me( I guess he figures he should at least give me somewhat of chance
). Whenever I fight him, that's usually the only way I win.
A2ZOMG
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While I do agree Zelda is a better character than Fox, I have suspicions as to whether or not she actually has the advantage vs him.
If Zelda whiffs any aerials (except MAYBE N-air), she gets punished, and it's not difficult for that to happen considering the extreme precision needed in order to not whiff an aerial. If she's at a percent where she can be killed, Fox can and will most likely go for a U-smash, and it will suck for her.
Against fast characters like Fox, she cannot afford to throw out Smashes as blindly as normal. Good thing for her that Fox is a fairly predictable approacher. Her Smashes are fairly safe against Fox if she aims the right direction.
The other thing about Zelda though is she doesn't have any good combos and her edgeguarding is mediocre at best. These are two of Fox's most notable weaknesses, however she doesn't have many good ways of capitalizing on them.
Zelda can't really camp against Fox since his reflector will shrug off all damage from Din's Fire. While not very threatening, Fox's blaster in this matchup does a better job of camping than Din's Fire due to the speed, and Zelda really can't reflect it back reliably if she was to consider doing that.
IMO there really is no point in using Zelda against Fox, because I'm pretty certain it's not at all an easy matchup for her due to lacking critical advantages against him. Sheik handles Fox better than Zelda in pretty much every way.
If Zelda whiffs any aerials (except MAYBE N-air), she gets punished, and it's not difficult for that to happen considering the extreme precision needed in order to not whiff an aerial. If she's at a percent where she can be killed, Fox can and will most likely go for a U-smash, and it will suck for her.
Against fast characters like Fox, she cannot afford to throw out Smashes as blindly as normal. Good thing for her that Fox is a fairly predictable approacher. Her Smashes are fairly safe against Fox if she aims the right direction.
The other thing about Zelda though is she doesn't have any good combos and her edgeguarding is mediocre at best. These are two of Fox's most notable weaknesses, however she doesn't have many good ways of capitalizing on them.
Zelda can't really camp against Fox since his reflector will shrug off all damage from Din's Fire. While not very threatening, Fox's blaster in this matchup does a better job of camping than Din's Fire due to the speed, and Zelda really can't reflect it back reliably if she was to consider doing that.
IMO there really is no point in using Zelda against Fox, because I'm pretty certain it's not at all an easy matchup for her due to lacking critical advantages against him. Sheik handles Fox better than Zelda in pretty much every way.
Not if Fox is also in the air, but on the ground, it's much more likely.
Who approaches in this matchup is entirely dependent on the skill of both players. As it stands, it's more likely that Zelda will be approaching.
USMASH IS A 50% DAMAGE COMBO (Kidding.) Good things to keep in mind, although Din's fire can be a ***** offstage.
Yes, but Zelda will land quite a few hits on Fox, and those few are really all she needs. Fox is the 7th lightest character.
I'm saying 60-40 Zelda, maybe 55-45.
Bair is actually pretty safe to throw out whenever you can, I know it doesn't auto cancel but the cooldown is minimal.
I think Zeldas edgeguarding is fantastic, it's just that most Zeldas don't even attempt to gimp.
TKD
Smash Lord
Lightning93
Smash Champion
I keep on hearing references to Shiek's tilt-lock, and how badly it ***** Fox. I completely agree with this, but really if you're playing a good Shiek player, it's near to impossible to not end up in one. I've tried camping, waiting patiently, but Shiek's will not let you do either. They will keep the pressure on by ducking and crawling to avoid your lasers, throwing needles when your SHDLing, approach you with various aerials, and of course boost-smashing. Shiek is by far my hardest match-up for Fox, INCLUDING meta knight. What I'm saying is, the tilt-lock alone is not the reason why Shiek has the advantage, she has multiple ways of racking damage and preventing your approach and attacks. And if you must focus on tilt-locks, it's not that hard for her to trap you into one, especially if they're really smart.
Of course, my points could not be making any differences in the numbers, what are they currently?
Of course, my points could not be making any differences in the numbers, what are they currently?
Ok, I got to play the matchup again. It's ********. Fox is the easiest character to ftiltlock, and the easiest character to ftilt>usmash combo, AND he dies from usmash at under 100%.
This is at least a 70:30 matchup.
This is at least a 70:30 matchup.
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