Fenrir VII
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2005
- Messages
- 3,506
This is the location to discuss Fox's performance on stages. This topic comes up a lot in the character matchup threads, so it should have its own thread here. Every few days, a new discussion will start, and we will be discussing literally everything about each stage and how Fox does on it, so stay tuned, and feel free to contribute.
The following considerations should be made for each stage (you can include these into your posts):
Stage Size
Recovery Options
Platform Spacing
Blast Zones
Specific Character Matchups on this stage (in regards to how it affects Fox in relation to his opponent - i.e. does it hurt Fox more than his opponents)
Characters Fox has an advantage on with this stage
Characters that have an advantage over Fox on this stage
Overall rank of stage For a Fox player (out of 10, based on a scale below)
0-3: Bad stage for Fox. Will give most characters an advantage over Fox, and should be banned in most cases
4-6: Very even for most characters against Fox. May give slight advantages in some matchups, but very even
7-10: Pretty much the opposite of the 0-3 category.. not too hard to figure out.
Feel free to discuss these topics as well as any other pertinent information about each stage. I feel that a number of Foxes have their set list of stages they can CP on... and I feel that we all need to put these ideas forward to get an idea of the possible CP and striking stages Fox has.
STAGE DISCUSSION #1: Battlefield
Overall rank: 5/10
Basically the default stage in Smash. It is made to be an incredibly even/neutral stage. Some characters have natural advantages due to the platform spacing, and it detracts from some characters. Fox is able to do quite well on the platforms, and overall stage layout with proper play, but feels a bit cramped at times here. The multiple platforms do give him a variety of recovery options, which help him greatly. The stage is really matchup dependent. Each matchup is pretty even, but some should be avoided here.
Matchups:
Avoid(You never want to play against):
Caution(They have the advantage, CP if you are more comfortable):
Average (no real advantage here):
CP(Not bad to take these people here):
STAGE DISCUSSION #2: Final Destination
Overall Rank: 8.5/10
NO Items. FOX only. FINAL DESTINATION!!!
Long and flat with no platforms to hinder combos or camping. This is one of Fox's best stages for a good reason. He has the mobility to play a huge hit and run game here, which, mixed with his laser, really opens up the door for quite a few options. The lack of platforms also eliminates any kind of fortressing game that many characters play under platforms, limiting their defense. Fox is one of the better campers and anti-campers in the game with his fast laser and reflector... so will usually win a camp war here. The stage is absolutely ideal for larger characters, and those without a projectile, forcing them to approach. The lack of platforms really limits Fox's recovery options, making him a bit more vulnerable to edgeguarding, but overall, it is a great stage for him.
Avoid(You never want to play against):
Caution(They have the advantage, CP if you are more comfortable):
Average (no real advantage here): :shiek:
CP(Not bad to take these people here): etc no-projectile characters
STAGE DISCUSSION #3: Smashville
Overall Rank: 7/10
A mini-Final Destination. Smashville is one of the simplest stages in the game, also making it one of the most neutral. It has only one platform, which slowly moves from side to side. The main platform is stationary, and a bit short. This leads to a feeling of being cramped, sometimes, when playing there with Fox. However, Fox has quite a few things here, too. His aerial mobility, thanks to shine stalling and fast falling, really allows him to work nicely with the moving platform without allowing his opponent to fortress under anything, as occurs in stages like Battlefield. The shortness of the stage can also increase his pressure game (although it decreases his camping game), and allow him more edgeguarding opportunities. Since his recoveries are more adaptable than a number of other characters, and he has minimal or sliding lag when he recovers onto the stage, his recovery is given more options with the moving platform, than other characters. Players need to be watchful of how their opponent handles the platform, as well, as many characters can maneuver around it quite well. For example, Snake can use it as a sort of C4 delivery device, and it should be cautioned. Overall, while small, this stage can be quite nice for Fox, and a solid choice in almost any matchup.
Avoid(You never want to play against): Can't really think of any...
Caution(They have the advantage, CP if you are more comfortable):
Average (no real advantage here): most of the cast...
CP(Not bad to take these people here):
STAGE DISCUSSION #4: Frigate Orpheon
OVERALL RANK: 7/10
Frigate is a weird stage to count as one of Fox's counterpicks. The stage has two forms: The first form has no ledge to grab on the right-hand side, but has a platform that moves up and down; the second form has a large dip in its center, a low center platform, and infinite moving platforms that come out from the sides of the stage, which can aid in recovery. Due to the adaptable nature of Fox's recovery, with shine stalling, and rising fairs, he is fully capable of exploiting the stagse recovery options, and not getting hurt by the right side of the first transformation as much as many other characters.
The platforms that come from the sides on the second transform are PERFECT for Fox's recovery, and greatly help him... Both transformations are fairly small, which limit mobility and camping, and the 2nd transform has the dip, making it harder for Fox to approach a fortressing character... Overall, though, many character are hurt worse on this stage than Fox is, so it makes a decent CP for him against some of the cast.
Avoid(You never want to play against):
Caution(They have the advantage, CP if you are more comfortable):
Average (no real advantage here):
CP(Not bad to take these people here):
STAGE DISCUSSION #5: Battleship Halberd
OVERALL RANKING 9.5/10
Probably Fox's best stage in Brawl. The low ceiling, superb platform spacing, and hazards of this stage really benefit him as a complete character. The only downsides of the stage really belonging to the flying section, which some characters can shark under... but Fox can just deal with this by camping platforms. Overall, everything on this stage (it's ceiling, platform, and length) really add to his game and make it his strongst CP in almost any matchup.
As for the matchups, I can't think of any that have an advantage on Fox here, really... so everybody is even, or Fox has an advantage...
STAGE DISCUSSION #6: Pokemon Stadium 1
OVERALL RANKING 7/10
This stage has some of the most diverse terrain in any legal stage in the game. The normal stage has two quite well-spaced platforms and pretty much nothing else, making it incredibly neutral. The stage then turns into one of four transformations, which make for incredibly varied and interesting battles. The good news is that Fox does very well on each of these transforms.
The Rock transform: This form has several walls, and a cave of death, which can really allow for shine infinites and stalling, should you need to. It really divides the stage into three main segments, so be careful not to get cramped into one and picked apart by zoning... keep moving
The Fire transform: This one also has three locations where shine infinites can be put on your opponent. The tree is also provides very good camping spots for Fox, since approaching him from the top is not usually a good idea... typically, this form makes Fox's opponents pretty jumpy. I should also note that the transforms last long enough that a shine infinite (when placed near the beginning of the form) almost guarantees an usmash kill.
The Wind transform: This one is pretty normal except for the huge windmill on the left. While some players have problems with it... I personally feel that Fox benefits from having the windmill... it allows him to live for longer than he normally would, with proper teching, or even lucky bounces. It also allows for damage output like crazy... while jumping out usually gets opponents out of a Fox combo, they have nowhere to go, and must land again... this really makes utilt amazing here... especially once they get high enough to bounce off the windmill... Also, Usmash is hard to tech, due to its speed, and when used correctly, it can provide a very scary bounce, that send opponents very low or kills off the side.
The Grass/Water transform: This form has just very good platforms spacing for uair or Fair strings up the platforms... I personally like it, but it doesn't alter gameplay as much as the other three.
As you can see, each of the transforms benefits Fox in different ways...maing for a very good Fox stage, overall... especially given that it's large enough to camp around. The main problem with the stage exists in the ledges. The ledges are very thin, and really easy to get trapped under. They also can screw up illusioning and such... making them a bit treacherous for Fox... On top of this, ledge campers are incredibly hard to beat here, given Fox's relative lack of anti-ledge camping attacks. I have found that Fox has moves that hit below the stage, but it seems pretty random as to when they actually hit.. I have hit a GW under the stage with an utilt for the kill, but I cannot say how reliable this is...
Overall, a very good stage, just be careful around the ledges.
Avoid(You never want to play against):
Caution(They have the advantage, CP if you are more comfortable):
Average (no real advantage here):
CP(Not bad to take these people here): :shiek:
STAGE DISCUSSION #7: Yoshi's Island
OVERALL RANKING 5/10
This is one of the weirder stages to discuss... on paper, it doesn't have too much agoing against Fox, but most Fox players hate it anyway... Even in my experience, I just get caught in more, and get really screwed up by the stage. The hills in the main platforms can really screw some characters up. They don't do much for or against Fox, except somewhat screw up SHFairs (going from lower land to higher does not autocancel here). Also, since there is a slope up at each ledge, it is easier to miss an illusion and wind up on the stage, only to get hit.... when the ledge would have been safe.
The large platform in the middle tilts bac and forth, and in my opinion, is the best thing for Fox here... it is the perfect height for full hop aerials, so retreating with Nair out of shield is even more applicable. FH nairs are nearly always safe, as well... so it's very nice. Also in Fox's favor, the vertical kill zones are a bit lower, allwoing earlier usmash kills... Although the stage is actually fairly large, it still feels really cramped when you play, due to one player usually controlling the center, while the other maneuvers around him.
The stage really comes down to matchups... it certainly hurt some characters more than Fox, and helps others... Not a terrible choice, but many Foxes may want to strike/ban this stage.
Avoid(You never want to play against):
Caution(They have the advantage, CP if you are more comfortable):
Average (no real advantage here):
CP(Not bad to take these people here):
STAGE DISCUSSION #8: Lylat Cruise
Oh noes!! Da edges!!!! (discussion done...mostly. write-up pending...)
STAGE DISCUSSION #9: Brinstar
Lava!
Discuss!
The following considerations should be made for each stage (you can include these into your posts):
Stage Size
Recovery Options
Platform Spacing
Blast Zones
Specific Character Matchups on this stage (in regards to how it affects Fox in relation to his opponent - i.e. does it hurt Fox more than his opponents)
Characters Fox has an advantage on with this stage
Characters that have an advantage over Fox on this stage
Overall rank of stage For a Fox player (out of 10, based on a scale below)
0-3: Bad stage for Fox. Will give most characters an advantage over Fox, and should be banned in most cases
4-6: Very even for most characters against Fox. May give slight advantages in some matchups, but very even
7-10: Pretty much the opposite of the 0-3 category.. not too hard to figure out.
Feel free to discuss these topics as well as any other pertinent information about each stage. I feel that a number of Foxes have their set list of stages they can CP on... and I feel that we all need to put these ideas forward to get an idea of the possible CP and striking stages Fox has.
STAGE DISCUSSION #1: Battlefield
Overall rank: 5/10
Basically the default stage in Smash. It is made to be an incredibly even/neutral stage. Some characters have natural advantages due to the platform spacing, and it detracts from some characters. Fox is able to do quite well on the platforms, and overall stage layout with proper play, but feels a bit cramped at times here. The multiple platforms do give him a variety of recovery options, which help him greatly. The stage is really matchup dependent. Each matchup is pretty even, but some should be avoided here.
Matchups:
Avoid(You never want to play against):
Caution(They have the advantage, CP if you are more comfortable):
Average (no real advantage here):
CP(Not bad to take these people here):
STAGE DISCUSSION #2: Final Destination
Overall Rank: 8.5/10
NO Items. FOX only. FINAL DESTINATION!!!
Long and flat with no platforms to hinder combos or camping. This is one of Fox's best stages for a good reason. He has the mobility to play a huge hit and run game here, which, mixed with his laser, really opens up the door for quite a few options. The lack of platforms also eliminates any kind of fortressing game that many characters play under platforms, limiting their defense. Fox is one of the better campers and anti-campers in the game with his fast laser and reflector... so will usually win a camp war here. The stage is absolutely ideal for larger characters, and those without a projectile, forcing them to approach. The lack of platforms really limits Fox's recovery options, making him a bit more vulnerable to edgeguarding, but overall, it is a great stage for him.
Avoid(You never want to play against):
Caution(They have the advantage, CP if you are more comfortable):
Average (no real advantage here): :shiek:
CP(Not bad to take these people here): etc no-projectile characters
STAGE DISCUSSION #3: Smashville
Overall Rank: 7/10
A mini-Final Destination. Smashville is one of the simplest stages in the game, also making it one of the most neutral. It has only one platform, which slowly moves from side to side. The main platform is stationary, and a bit short. This leads to a feeling of being cramped, sometimes, when playing there with Fox. However, Fox has quite a few things here, too. His aerial mobility, thanks to shine stalling and fast falling, really allows him to work nicely with the moving platform without allowing his opponent to fortress under anything, as occurs in stages like Battlefield. The shortness of the stage can also increase his pressure game (although it decreases his camping game), and allow him more edgeguarding opportunities. Since his recoveries are more adaptable than a number of other characters, and he has minimal or sliding lag when he recovers onto the stage, his recovery is given more options with the moving platform, than other characters. Players need to be watchful of how their opponent handles the platform, as well, as many characters can maneuver around it quite well. For example, Snake can use it as a sort of C4 delivery device, and it should be cautioned. Overall, while small, this stage can be quite nice for Fox, and a solid choice in almost any matchup.
Avoid(You never want to play against): Can't really think of any...
Caution(They have the advantage, CP if you are more comfortable):
Average (no real advantage here): most of the cast...
CP(Not bad to take these people here):
STAGE DISCUSSION #4: Frigate Orpheon
OVERALL RANK: 7/10
Frigate is a weird stage to count as one of Fox's counterpicks. The stage has two forms: The first form has no ledge to grab on the right-hand side, but has a platform that moves up and down; the second form has a large dip in its center, a low center platform, and infinite moving platforms that come out from the sides of the stage, which can aid in recovery. Due to the adaptable nature of Fox's recovery, with shine stalling, and rising fairs, he is fully capable of exploiting the stagse recovery options, and not getting hurt by the right side of the first transformation as much as many other characters.
The platforms that come from the sides on the second transform are PERFECT for Fox's recovery, and greatly help him... Both transformations are fairly small, which limit mobility and camping, and the 2nd transform has the dip, making it harder for Fox to approach a fortressing character... Overall, though, many character are hurt worse on this stage than Fox is, so it makes a decent CP for him against some of the cast.
Avoid(You never want to play against):
Caution(They have the advantage, CP if you are more comfortable):
Average (no real advantage here):
CP(Not bad to take these people here):
STAGE DISCUSSION #5: Battleship Halberd
OVERALL RANKING 9.5/10
Probably Fox's best stage in Brawl. The low ceiling, superb platform spacing, and hazards of this stage really benefit him as a complete character. The only downsides of the stage really belonging to the flying section, which some characters can shark under... but Fox can just deal with this by camping platforms. Overall, everything on this stage (it's ceiling, platform, and length) really add to his game and make it his strongst CP in almost any matchup.
As for the matchups, I can't think of any that have an advantage on Fox here, really... so everybody is even, or Fox has an advantage...
STAGE DISCUSSION #6: Pokemon Stadium 1
OVERALL RANKING 7/10
This stage has some of the most diverse terrain in any legal stage in the game. The normal stage has two quite well-spaced platforms and pretty much nothing else, making it incredibly neutral. The stage then turns into one of four transformations, which make for incredibly varied and interesting battles. The good news is that Fox does very well on each of these transforms.
The Rock transform: This form has several walls, and a cave of death, which can really allow for shine infinites and stalling, should you need to. It really divides the stage into three main segments, so be careful not to get cramped into one and picked apart by zoning... keep moving
The Fire transform: This one also has three locations where shine infinites can be put on your opponent. The tree is also provides very good camping spots for Fox, since approaching him from the top is not usually a good idea... typically, this form makes Fox's opponents pretty jumpy. I should also note that the transforms last long enough that a shine infinite (when placed near the beginning of the form) almost guarantees an usmash kill.
The Wind transform: This one is pretty normal except for the huge windmill on the left. While some players have problems with it... I personally feel that Fox benefits from having the windmill... it allows him to live for longer than he normally would, with proper teching, or even lucky bounces. It also allows for damage output like crazy... while jumping out usually gets opponents out of a Fox combo, they have nowhere to go, and must land again... this really makes utilt amazing here... especially once they get high enough to bounce off the windmill... Also, Usmash is hard to tech, due to its speed, and when used correctly, it can provide a very scary bounce, that send opponents very low or kills off the side.
The Grass/Water transform: This form has just very good platforms spacing for uair or Fair strings up the platforms... I personally like it, but it doesn't alter gameplay as much as the other three.
As you can see, each of the transforms benefits Fox in different ways...maing for a very good Fox stage, overall... especially given that it's large enough to camp around. The main problem with the stage exists in the ledges. The ledges are very thin, and really easy to get trapped under. They also can screw up illusioning and such... making them a bit treacherous for Fox... On top of this, ledge campers are incredibly hard to beat here, given Fox's relative lack of anti-ledge camping attacks. I have found that Fox has moves that hit below the stage, but it seems pretty random as to when they actually hit.. I have hit a GW under the stage with an utilt for the kill, but I cannot say how reliable this is...
Overall, a very good stage, just be careful around the ledges.
Avoid(You never want to play against):
Caution(They have the advantage, CP if you are more comfortable):
Average (no real advantage here):
CP(Not bad to take these people here): :shiek:
STAGE DISCUSSION #7: Yoshi's Island
OVERALL RANKING 5/10
This is one of the weirder stages to discuss... on paper, it doesn't have too much agoing against Fox, but most Fox players hate it anyway... Even in my experience, I just get caught in more, and get really screwed up by the stage. The hills in the main platforms can really screw some characters up. They don't do much for or against Fox, except somewhat screw up SHFairs (going from lower land to higher does not autocancel here). Also, since there is a slope up at each ledge, it is easier to miss an illusion and wind up on the stage, only to get hit.... when the ledge would have been safe.
The large platform in the middle tilts bac and forth, and in my opinion, is the best thing for Fox here... it is the perfect height for full hop aerials, so retreating with Nair out of shield is even more applicable. FH nairs are nearly always safe, as well... so it's very nice. Also in Fox's favor, the vertical kill zones are a bit lower, allwoing earlier usmash kills... Although the stage is actually fairly large, it still feels really cramped when you play, due to one player usually controlling the center, while the other maneuvers around him.
The stage really comes down to matchups... it certainly hurt some characters more than Fox, and helps others... Not a terrible choice, but many Foxes may want to strike/ban this stage.
Avoid(You never want to play against):
Caution(They have the advantage, CP if you are more comfortable):
Average (no real advantage here):
CP(Not bad to take these people here):
STAGE DISCUSSION #8: Lylat Cruise
Oh noes!! Da edges!!!! (discussion done...mostly. write-up pending...)
STAGE DISCUSSION #9: Brinstar
Lava!
Discuss!