Fox Board Stage Discussion [#9 - Brinstar] Discuss now!

[718_ROOKI3]

Definitely is IMO too
BUT
i also like PS1, that stage is soooooooooooooooo good

 

[Toronto Joe]

all of your posts are so long good lawd your beasts

 

[Fenrir VII]

k... I'ma sum this all up tomorrow....

if anybody wants to write a review... be my guest... otherwise, i'll do it.

until then... final thoughts/comments?


Also... thoughts on what stage should be next?

I mean, I'm all for continuing with neutrals... but at some point... we'll need to deal with CP stages, too.

 

[KheldarVII]

Delfino. Just go the same order as the game.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Delfino. Just go the same order as the game.

Updated the first post... going Smashville, just to go through the SBR list... I would go with the game... but a lot of the stages are potential ban bait anyway (possibly like Norfair)... (even not considering the obvs banned ones...

So I'm going to stick to major stages for now... if anybody has a specific CP or something they want to do, I don't mind messing up the order... and I will definitely consider Delfino, if you just want to discuss that stage... I just decided against going through the game's order... (which would also leave PS1...one of Fox's pretty good stages... til the end.)


Anyways SMASHVILLE!

A6M and I always stand behind this stage... I think it's quite good... if just a little bit cramped...

Discuss!




EDIT BIG ALSO!!

ok, when I write up a summary to go in the first post... I consider what I think are important characters to mention in the CP, don't CP, etc. area...
Of course, with my knowledge, I could easily be wrong on something... or I could forget something, so whenever you see that area... feel free to add other characters, argue the current ones, etc...

 

[M@v]

This is Fox's second best neutral. Basically a mini FD, with a few exceptions:

-the ledges make it more diffifcult to gimp since opponents can't get stuck.

-shorter length makes it a bit more difficult to camp

-The platform


The platform is a good way to withdraw from a fight and re-organize. Be careful, since the platform can put other characters in a very advantaged position. Especially be careful vs snake; that platform is a C4 delivery device.

But yeah as I said in the beginning, Fox's second best neutral, and by no means a bag stage for fox. 7/10

 

[Fenrir VII]

This is Fox's second best neutral. Basically a mini FD, with a few exceptions:

-the ledges make it more diffifcult to gimp since opponents can't get stuck.

-shorter length makes it a bit more difficult to camp

-The platform


The platform is a good way to withdraw from a fight and re-organize. Be careful, since the platform can put other characters in a very advantaged position. Especially be careful vs snake; that platform is a C4 delivery device.

But yeah as I said in the beginning, Fox's second best neutral, and by no means a bag stage for fox. 7/10

Completely agree with this post...

The platform, imo, is both a gift and a curse... usually the former. It really gives you more recovery options...which is quite nice. It's also, as M@v said, a very good resetter... You can continue combos on and off the platform pretty easily, and your opponent can't camp below it... so overall, I think that particular element helps Fox in most cases. Other characters have interesting thing they can do with the platform too, though.. like Snake's C4... so you really just have to be able to adapt.

The only real problem I have with this stage is that it is a bit cramped for Fox to move around... Everything else, I love... 7/10 sounds very good to me.

I should also state the the short platform really allows Dsmash to set up edgeguards... I particularly like taking characters with fairly bad recoveries (or a lot of lag time on landing with their upB) here.. It really seems to be a good stage for Fox's edgeguarding and gimping.. especially since you can sometimes shine/attack opponent's under the stage...

 

[718_ROOKI3]

Smashville is awesome but geeez that platform really works against him on certain characters

 

[Sukai]

You guys are wimps, that platform is excellent for Fox.
Sure some characters can exploit it better, but that platform opens doors for Fox.
Smashville in my opinion, is Fox's best neutral. He can mix recoveries better, smaller stage to make for more pressure in his camping, platform for those "omg DI" moments. Just need to pay attention to that platform, adaption and manipulation.

 

[Zephil]

Smashville´s platform is SEX!! is so **** useful if it is used correctly... not as fox but as all the players I used I have realized that the one that controls best the platform... is very probable that would get the victory

 

[SnowballBob33]

Fox works the platform nice in general with all his aerials. Also it helps him get out of sticky situations. It can help his recovery occasionally too.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Wow...not so much discussion on smashville... are we done with it?

Let's do something different for the next stage... what should it be?

I'm thinking Frigate, Castle Siege, or Halberd (we all know Halberd is one of Fox's better stages, though.)

 

[JigglyZelda003]

id like to do frigate

 

[718_ROOKI3]

You guys are wimps, that platform is excellent for Fox.

You see if you read correctly i said that the platform hurts fox due to OTHER CHARACTERS
IE: META KNIGHT, SNAKE, DIDDY

 

[Fenrir VII]

Yeah, I like the moving platform in a lot of cases... of course, for some characters, I think it hurts Fox, but overall, i like the stage quite a lot...

so 7/10 sounds good for everybody?

Frigate next, I think.

 

[718_ROOKI3]

7/10 is good and i love smashville actually it's my power stage right next to FD

 

[718_ROOKI3]

im going to fallback from the frigate topic, i hate this stage now it's stupid and i have bad luck on it, i'll be back when this stage discussion ends

 

[Fenrir VII]

im going to fallback from the frigate topic, i hate this stage now it's stupid and i have bad luck on it, i'll be back when this stage discussion ends

Actually, that'd be some good input, but whatever you think...

I couldn't really think of matchups to put for Smashville, so if you have any ideas... let me know.

FRIGATE!! our next discussion... as one of the more debatable stages for Fox, this should be pretty interesting...

ok go!

 

[718_ROOKI3]

I couldn't really think of matchups to put for Smashville, so if you have any ideas... let me know.

as in what characters to fight on smashville?

Characters to keep off smashville - MK, Diddy, Snake, Falco, GW

Characters to fight on smashville - Wolf, Marth, Ike, Toon, Mario

these are just from past experience, not really facts

but anyway back to Frigate

GO!

 

[Zeton]

if meta knight grabs you and you release on the right of the stage on the first transformation when the moving platform is up...kiss that stock good bye.

That, and fox's only recover option over head or directly back on stage (no ledge option).

 

[JigglyZelda003]

FO is weird as Fox. i normally don't go here as him cause i have JP for this stage, its ok though. not much room for camping and like what zeton said about the first form, ledges.

the second form i think is the best one cause theres ledges and sometimes the platforms can save you. the platform on this part doesn't really cause much problems and is small enough to poke through w/ like a Fair or Uair. but some characters like Oli can camp under the platform and you can't shoot him down there..... personally i just feel more comfortable on this form than the other, although one time i SD for some weird reason when it flipped back over and i wasn't even doing anything and it wasn't a fall down, i hit the foreground......

don't take anyone who has a very good recovery here.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Frigate is very good for Fox's mobility and adaptability... and for another point, which I think needs emphasis


Fox's recovery is VERY adaptable. It goes quite far, and you have a large number of different options with it. Through proper DI, you set yourself up (usually...some attacks send scary low, and those suck when you get hit by them) to come in near the stage from fairly high...but so you'll still need your jumps to get back on.

At this point, you have a double jump with Rising Fair, which is incredible for recovery placement, Shine stalls to avoid edge guarding, an Illusion (cancelable to several distances), and FireFox.

With these tool, you should almost always have an option to recover and avoid edgeguarding. Thus, with out without a ledge, you have the ability to at least make it hard for your opponent to attack you back out.

This is something that a LOT of characters in Brawl simply don't have... even some with Recoveries that are better than Fox's. They may be better, but they are basically one-trick ponies.

Therefore, I feel that quite a few characters are more hurt by the lack of a ledge than Fox is, if that makes any sense.

Zelda's and Marth's Up-B's ending lag REALLY hurts them on Frigate, for example. DDD as well. Other characters that I feel are given more trouble from Frigate in recovering than Fox is are:

Marth
Zelda
DDD
All tether chars
Diddy
ICs
Ike
DK
Bowser
Samus
Link
TL
Lucario (debateable with wall stall)
Sheik
Wolf
Ganon
CF
Mario
Luigi
Ness
lucas
Pit

Now this is all just my opinion here... and you're free to ask me why I think each of these...
An important note: I am not saying who can recover better on Frigate here. I am stating the characters that I feel are hurt worse by the lack of a ledge than Fox is. (hope that makes sense)

And I mean, that's 22 chars... that makes it a decent CP stage... especially since (at least for me) the rest of the stage is quite well suited for Fox.

Quoting myself from the Diddy matchup thread...

I still think these things, really...

I agree with what JiggZel said about the middle in-sloped part of the second transform, though... It really does allow for fortressing, and addsa level of difficulty for Fox.

 

[M@v]

Frigate is up there on Fox's best stages. I usually CP this if I want to use fox for my cp and they banned halberd. I'll break it down for each phase of it


OVERALL:

-Good ceiling size

- fairly easy to camp

- fox can shine stall in the air when the stage flips to avoid any possible chance of being gayed by the stage.

-Sonic love to kill themselves here. Dont ask me why. Even though its apparently one of their better stages, almost every sonic I have played has SD'd here on me before.



PHASE 1(the side without a ledge on the rightside)

-The ledgeless side provides easy gimping on characters with bad recoveries

-Pretty flat like a mini FD, and the one platform is usefeul, especially if they try to go up on it. Rising fair ***** most people that pull this stunt

-You have a partial shine infinite on the right side when the platform is below the rest of the stage.


PHASE 2( Dented bottom, 2 platforms that come from left and right)

-Harder to camp here than phase one, but still not that hard. You just have to worry about them crouching in the dented reigion.

- The platform is high enough to not interfere with your sh aerials, but low enough to let you easily poke an opponent on the platform with them.

- The platforms that come in on each side can be a saving grace when recovering. If your trapped, shine stall and chances are it will come in time. You can also use it to reset your jumps and give you a second to think of your next move.

Im saying 7.5/10 here. The main issue is recovering on the side with no ledge.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Frigate is up there on Fox's best stages. I usually CP this if I want to use fox for my cp and they banned halberd. I break it down for each phase of it


OVERALL:

-Good ceiling size

- fairly easy to camp

- fox can shine stall in the air when the stage flips to avoid any possible chance of being gayed by the stage.

-Sonic love to kill themselves here. Dont ask me why. Even though its apparently one of their better stages, almost every sonic I have played has SD'd here on me before.



PHASE 1(the side without a ledge on the rightside)

-The ledgeless side provides easy gimping on characters with bad recoveries

-Pretty flat like a mini FD, and the one platform is usefeul, especially if they try to go up on it. Rising fair ***** most people that pull this stunt

-You have a partial shine infinite on the right side when the platform is below the rest of the stage.


PHASE 2( Dented bottom, 2 platforms that come from left and right)

-Harder to camp here than phase one, but still not that hard. You just have to worry about them crouching in the dented reigion.

- The platform is high enough to not interfere with your sh aerials, but low enough to let you easily poke an opponent on the platform with them.

- The platforms that come in on each side can be a saving grace when recovering. If your trapped, shine stall and chances are it will come in time. You can also use it to reset your jumps and give you a second to think of your next move.

Im saying 7.5/10 here. The main issue is recovering on the side with no ledge.

Mav and I tend to think a lot alike for stages...

Typically, I just think this hurts Fox's opponent much more than Fox most of the time.. since his recovery can be changed pretty easily, and you can stall in the air to wait for a more convenient platform spacing to show up... The 2nd phases's side platforms are a miracle for Fox when you do this...oh so nice.

 

[DarkAura]

ok.. heres my short opinion

Frigate Orpheon has always been one of my favourite stages and it's a very good stage for fox for multiple reasons that im sure have already been mentioned.

 

[Jupz]

Lucario is better at recovering here, he can wall cling then jump over for lagless recovery. I wouldn't take him here. Dairs work great off the right side at the start. Second transformation isn't as good for Fox because of the slant and platform.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Again, not too much discussion... hope this thing doesn't die...

final thoughts? We need character matchups here, and an overall rating...

 

[JigglyZelda003]

can't say much more than i already have cause Frigate is not one of my Fox stages, maybe next stage : /

 

[KheldarVII]

Probably best versus grounding characters and not a common but decent counterpick with Fox.

 

[Fenrir VII]

...ok... so I'm just going to cap this one... and call out a random score of 6/10 for him as a CP... decent, but not always solid.

I'll start the next discussion, and write up a summary, tomorrow.

What stage is next?

 

[Zephil]

Bad vertical recoveries are bad in this stage... bowser, DK, even falco if he is ofrce to use the firebird... also shine gimps are more easy here, but I agree with JigglyZelda003... don´t bring chars with good recoveries here...

I think we should go with one of Fox´s favorite counter: Halberd, or Yoshi Story (brawl of course)... don´t know why exactly but I am REALLY good in that stage, I almost never lose

 

[Fenrir VII]

OK updated!! As with any update... if you disagree with something I say in write-ups, or think I need to add something / change char matchups, please let me know.


Next is HALBERD!!!

I feel about 8/10 here... really solid stage for Fox. The only thing that detracts from it, for me at least, is the fact that some characters can exploit the rise-through bottom of the flying platform a LOT better than Fox can...

 

[JigglyZelda003]

lol sharking is fun, if you can do it, on this stage. the dip during the flying part also can screw w/ camping antics like FO. i actually like the flying part cause rising Fair throuth the stage is fun.

the actual halberd part is like FD w/ a non moving platform + hazards to me. i like when the laser locks onto me cause if i can set it up in the middle of the stage its practically a free camping shield and they can only approach past it by going over, which can lead to more Fair fun lol.

 

[Fenrir VII]

lol sharking is fun, if you can do it, on this stage. the dip during the flying part also can screw w/ camping antics like FO. i actually like the flying part cause rising Fair throuth the stage is fun.

the actual halberd part is like FD w/ a non moving platform + hazards to me. i like when the laser locks onto me cause if i can set it up in the middle of the stage its practically a free camping shield and they can only approach past it by going over, which can lead to more Fair fun lol.

Sure... they're similar ideas... Halberd, I feel, doesn't hurt Fox as much, because it is wider, has more level ground, rather than slant, and the platform is a bit higher... it also seems to not dip quite so much... Those three things do help, but yeah, I don't feel that this part of Halberd is too great for Fox.

EDIT** Before I get too carried away with this dip = bad for Fox idea... I should also note that it helps him bair cancel into stuff, since he can perform the bair a bit later and still have it autocancel. In my personal experience... I have known opponents to set up a nice little tent under a platform... and it's a good tactic vs. Fox. Certainly, the fox player can get around it, but it hurts him, still...

The main ship stage, though, is absolutely amazing for him. A very long flat stage with a low ceiling, hazards that can help, as you said, a huge flat platform, which helps Fox, too...

Overall, yeah, the on-stage part is incredible.

Sharking through the flying platform is fun and effective, yeah... just, characters like DDD and MK can better exploit that, and leave Fox without too many options.

Against most matchups, however, the flying part doesn't help Fox's opponent like that... so overall, I really like the stage for him.

 

[Uzima (Uzi)]

the one thing besides from the low cealing i really like about halberd, is the height of the platform, it lets you jump up>laser and Fall though>laser really really well in this stage, lets you get them single lasers out really easily and effectivly.

 

[M@v]

Ok, this is where i finally disagree with even a little bit of fenrir's post. Yay . Halberd is fox's best stage hands down. Allow me to explain. 1st, some facts:

-Halberd has the lowest ceiling of any legal stage. That should speak for itself.

-Most people who dont know the stage are unprepared for the obstacles and weaponry.

-The laser's last hit is stronger and has a bigger hitbox.


Now by phases:

PHASE 1(On the ground)

-This only lasts a few seconds, nothing too exciting, just dont be stupid and be on the ground when the platform takes off.

Phase 2(The flying platform)


-This ridiculously easy to abuse the ledge, plank, and use rising fairs through the bottom. its also easy to camp. if they duck in the indent, either fake an approach or illusion through them.

-If you face someone who can abuse the first part better than you, just play gay, run and shoot, and stay on the ledges. It doesnt last that long.

-Rising fair from the bottom to the top platform is easy as well.

-The spacing of the platforms can really hinder a lot of character's movements. Nair works well for attacking without suffering from this.

-Up air is especially good on this part vs snake. Since most snakes recover high, you can get ridiculously early kills with up.

Phase 3(Halberd itself)

-When the platform is still landing, IMMEDIATELY drop below it. It gives you tons more options. If they are stupid enough to stay on top, rising fair or upair. If they come down, rush them. It will make the camera go to where you can't see eachother. Most players shield and you can get an easy grab combo.

-Once it settles, the stage is essentially FD, with a lower ceiling, and a platform thats ideally spaced for your shortgop nairs, upairs, and for rising fair pokes.

-People can get stuck way at the bottom on each side, so shine spiking is effective.


WEAPONRY: I still have to look it up, but I think it is completely random who the ship targets. Normally though, its the same person for all the weapons on the same stay on the ship.


How to deal with each one:

Laser: if your not the target, simply play keep away. If you are the target, try to get your opponent stuck in it, or use it to set up an edgeguard. Example, toss your opponent offstage, then lure the laser to fire on top of the ledge.

Cannon: This is by far the easiest one to avoid. Look at the barrel in the background, and you know exactly where its coming down. plan accordingly.

Claw: This is the toughest one. Although it follows one person, it can attack the other , so be on your toes, after a certain time(its constant, ill have to time it later), it strikes. ill get the time for reference, be ready to dodge and ALWAYS be aware of the crane. It stops for a second before it strikes.




Overall:

1st phase gives fox an advantage over many character by letting him abuse aerials and camping. The ones he doesn't, he can just run and be gay for the little bit of time its airborne.

2nd phase. FD on steroids. Everything advantage fox gets from FD, plus an addition platform at the ideal height to abuse aerials, AND a low ceiling. Also, once you learn the weapon rythms, you have addition tools to fight your opponent.


I firmly believe this is fox's best stage , I almost always take people here if I'm Cping with fox.

9.5/10 The only thing not giving it a perfect is due to the fact some people can abuse the 1st part better than fox can.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Ok, this is where i finally disagree with even a little bit of fenrir's post. Yay . Halberd is foxe's best stage hands down.

lol... the only real point that you made, differing from my opinions, is that the first part is a bit better than I say... which I'm willing to concede, honestly.

I really shouldn't take 2 points off because of that. I don't know that I would want to fight MK on only the first part of the stage, but as you said, camping, and keep away are possible until you get to the main stage...

And only a couple character can effectively shark that platform, really... so ok. I say platform camp > drop through bair against sharkers. : )

And yeah, the main stage is Fox's best area in the game. i completely agree with that.. the platform is perfect, and it's VERY long and VERY flat, with shine spikable edges, and a low ceiling... completely agree here.

Fox is actually at an advantage when the stuff is targeting him... he's so good at positioning the hazards to suit him, whether they be in the middle of the stage to take a camp break, or on the edge to screw recovering opponents...

 

[718_ROOKI3]

YES great stage, very minupulative, and its one of my CP's. I especially CP G&W to this stage

 

[DarkAura]

halberd is awesome. Low Ceiling which is perfect for fox and the environment interacts with you so you can just throw people into bombs and lasers... fun

yeah thats really all i can say... i don't really study stages, just how to kill people on them

 

[KheldarVII]

To be "fair", using rising F-airs under the stage is pretty risky to people with good smashes... or D-smash. You also have a bit of a lull after hitting so you can be particularly open. But I suppose you meant not going in blindly with it so whatever.

I'll rate this as a good Fox CP. Probably my second pick personally. I never pass up Pokemon Stadium.

8/10 if we like numbers. Low ceiling (probably an illusion, it looks the same height as BF), good platform use, and Fox has the speed to toy with the environment. Laser camping? Yes also good here. I think it only gets tough when you are on the flying segment. U-air is a good killer at that point however.