Fox Board Stage Discussion [#9 - Brinstar] Discuss now!

[Fenrir VII]

This is the location to discuss Fox's performance on stages. This topic comes up a lot in the character matchup threads, so it should have its own thread here. Every few days, a new discussion will start, and we will be discussing literally everything about each stage and how Fox does on it, so stay tuned, and feel free to contribute.

The following considerations should be made for each stage (you can include these into your posts):

Stage Size
Recovery Options
Platform Spacing
Blast Zones
Specific Character Matchups on this stage (in regards to how it affects Fox in relation to his opponent - i.e. does it hurt Fox more than his opponents)
Characters Fox has an advantage on with this stage
Characters that have an advantage over Fox on this stage
Overall rank of stage For a Fox player (out of 10, based on a scale below)

0-3: Bad stage for Fox. Will give most characters an advantage over Fox, and should be banned in most cases
4-6: Very even for most characters against Fox. May give slight advantages in some matchups, but very even
7-10: Pretty much the opposite of the 0-3 category.. not too hard to figure out.

Feel free to discuss these topics as well as any other pertinent information about each stage. I feel that a number of Foxes have their set list of stages they can CP on... and I feel that we all need to put these ideas forward to get an idea of the possible CP and striking stages Fox has.

STAGE DISCUSSION #1: Battlefield

Overall rank: 5/10

Basically the default stage in Smash. It is made to be an incredibly even/neutral stage. Some characters have natural advantages due to the platform spacing, and it detracts from some characters. Fox is able to do quite well on the platforms, and overall stage layout with proper play, but feels a bit cramped at times here. The multiple platforms do give him a variety of recovery options, which help him greatly. The stage is really matchup dependent. Each matchup is pretty even, but some should be avoided here.

Matchups:

Avoid(You never want to play against):
Caution(They have the advantage, CP if you are more comfortable):
Average (no real advantage here):
CP(Not bad to take these people here):



STAGE DISCUSSION #2: Final Destination

Overall Rank: 8.5/10

NO Items. FOX only. FINAL DESTINATION!!!
Long and flat with no platforms to hinder combos or camping. This is one of Fox's best stages for a good reason. He has the mobility to play a huge hit and run game here, which, mixed with his laser, really opens up the door for quite a few options. The lack of platforms also eliminates any kind of fortressing game that many characters play under platforms, limiting their defense. Fox is one of the better campers and anti-campers in the game with his fast laser and reflector... so will usually win a camp war here. The stage is absolutely ideal for larger characters, and those without a projectile, forcing them to approach. The lack of platforms really limits Fox's recovery options, making him a bit more vulnerable to edgeguarding, but overall, it is a great stage for him.

Avoid(You never want to play against):
Caution(They have the advantage, CP if you are more comfortable):
Average (no real advantage here): :shiek:
CP(Not bad to take these people here): etc no-projectile characters


STAGE DISCUSSION #3: Smashville

Overall Rank: 7/10

A mini-Final Destination. Smashville is one of the simplest stages in the game, also making it one of the most neutral. It has only one platform, which slowly moves from side to side. The main platform is stationary, and a bit short. This leads to a feeling of being cramped, sometimes, when playing there with Fox. However, Fox has quite a few things here, too. His aerial mobility, thanks to shine stalling and fast falling, really allows him to work nicely with the moving platform without allowing his opponent to fortress under anything, as occurs in stages like Battlefield. The shortness of the stage can also increase his pressure game (although it decreases his camping game), and allow him more edgeguarding opportunities. Since his recoveries are more adaptable than a number of other characters, and he has minimal or sliding lag when he recovers onto the stage, his recovery is given more options with the moving platform, than other characters. Players need to be watchful of how their opponent handles the platform, as well, as many characters can maneuver around it quite well. For example, Snake can use it as a sort of C4 delivery device, and it should be cautioned. Overall, while small, this stage can be quite nice for Fox, and a solid choice in almost any matchup.

Avoid(You never want to play against): Can't really think of any...
Caution(They have the advantage, CP if you are more comfortable):
Average (no real advantage here): most of the cast...
CP(Not bad to take these people here):


STAGE DISCUSSION #4: Frigate Orpheon

OVERALL RANK: 7/10

Frigate is a weird stage to count as one of Fox's counterpicks. The stage has two forms: The first form has no ledge to grab on the right-hand side, but has a platform that moves up and down; the second form has a large dip in its center, a low center platform, and infinite moving platforms that come out from the sides of the stage, which can aid in recovery. Due to the adaptable nature of Fox's recovery, with shine stalling, and rising fairs, he is fully capable of exploiting the stagse recovery options, and not getting hurt by the right side of the first transformation as much as many other characters.
The platforms that come from the sides on the second transform are PERFECT for Fox's recovery, and greatly help him... Both transformations are fairly small, which limit mobility and camping, and the 2nd transform has the dip, making it harder for Fox to approach a fortressing character... Overall, though, many character are hurt worse on this stage than Fox is, so it makes a decent CP for him against some of the cast.

Avoid(You never want to play against):
Caution(They have the advantage, CP if you are more comfortable):
Average (no real advantage here):
CP(Not bad to take these people here):


STAGE DISCUSSION #5: Battleship Halberd

OVERALL RANKING 9.5/10

Probably Fox's best stage in Brawl. The low ceiling, superb platform spacing, and hazards of this stage really benefit him as a complete character. The only downsides of the stage really belonging to the flying section, which some characters can shark under... but Fox can just deal with this by camping platforms. Overall, everything on this stage (it's ceiling, platform, and length) really add to his game and make it his strongst CP in almost any matchup.

As for the matchups, I can't think of any that have an advantage on Fox here, really... so everybody is even, or Fox has an advantage...

STAGE DISCUSSION #6: Pokemon Stadium 1

OVERALL RANKING 7/10

This stage has some of the most diverse terrain in any legal stage in the game. The normal stage has two quite well-spaced platforms and pretty much nothing else, making it incredibly neutral. The stage then turns into one of four transformations, which make for incredibly varied and interesting battles. The good news is that Fox does very well on each of these transforms.

The Rock transform: This form has several walls, and a cave of death, which can really allow for shine infinites and stalling, should you need to. It really divides the stage into three main segments, so be careful not to get cramped into one and picked apart by zoning... keep moving

The Fire transform: This one also has three locations where shine infinites can be put on your opponent. The tree is also provides very good camping spots for Fox, since approaching him from the top is not usually a good idea... typically, this form makes Fox's opponents pretty jumpy. I should also note that the transforms last long enough that a shine infinite (when placed near the beginning of the form) almost guarantees an usmash kill.

The Wind transform: This one is pretty normal except for the huge windmill on the left. While some players have problems with it... I personally feel that Fox benefits from having the windmill... it allows him to live for longer than he normally would, with proper teching, or even lucky bounces. It also allows for damage output like crazy... while jumping out usually gets opponents out of a Fox combo, they have nowhere to go, and must land again... this really makes utilt amazing here... especially once they get high enough to bounce off the windmill... Also, Usmash is hard to tech, due to its speed, and when used correctly, it can provide a very scary bounce, that send opponents very low or kills off the side.

The Grass/Water transform: This form has just very good platforms spacing for uair or Fair strings up the platforms... I personally like it, but it doesn't alter gameplay as much as the other three.

As you can see, each of the transforms benefits Fox in different ways...maing for a very good Fox stage, overall... especially given that it's large enough to camp around. The main problem with the stage exists in the ledges. The ledges are very thin, and really easy to get trapped under. They also can screw up illusioning and such... making them a bit treacherous for Fox... On top of this, ledge campers are incredibly hard to beat here, given Fox's relative lack of anti-ledge camping attacks. I have found that Fox has moves that hit below the stage, but it seems pretty random as to when they actually hit.. I have hit a GW under the stage with an utilt for the kill, but I cannot say how reliable this is...

Overall, a very good stage, just be careful around the ledges.

Avoid(You never want to play against):
Caution(They have the advantage, CP if you are more comfortable):
Average (no real advantage here):
CP(Not bad to take these people here): :shiek:


STAGE DISCUSSION #7: Yoshi's Island

OVERALL RANKING 5/10

This is one of the weirder stages to discuss... on paper, it doesn't have too much agoing against Fox, but most Fox players hate it anyway... Even in my experience, I just get caught in more, and get really screwed up by the stage. The hills in the main platforms can really screw some characters up. They don't do much for or against Fox, except somewhat screw up SHFairs (going from lower land to higher does not autocancel here). Also, since there is a slope up at each ledge, it is easier to miss an illusion and wind up on the stage, only to get hit.... when the ledge would have been safe.

The large platform in the middle tilts bac and forth, and in my opinion, is the best thing for Fox here... it is the perfect height for full hop aerials, so retreating with Nair out of shield is even more applicable. FH nairs are nearly always safe, as well... so it's very nice. Also in Fox's favor, the vertical kill zones are a bit lower, allwoing earlier usmash kills... Although the stage is actually fairly large, it still feels really cramped when you play, due to one player usually controlling the center, while the other maneuvers around him.

The stage really comes down to matchups... it certainly hurt some characters more than Fox, and helps others... Not a terrible choice, but many Foxes may want to strike/ban this stage.

Avoid(You never want to play against):
Caution(They have the advantage, CP if you are more comfortable):
Average (no real advantage here):
CP(Not bad to take these people here):


STAGE DISCUSSION #8: Lylat Cruise

Oh noes!! Da edges!!!! (discussion done...mostly. write-up pending...)


STAGE DISCUSSION #9: Brinstar

Lava!

Discuss!

 

[SnowballBob33]

Didn't we already have something like this??
Anyways I hate BF so I'm going to stay off this one. I like lylat more than BF. idk if its just me but I think BF sux for fox.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Didn't we already have something like this??
Anyways I hate BF so I'm going to stay off this one. I like lylat more than BF. idk if its just me but I think BF sux for fox.

Alright, so I thought I remembered an older one of these, but it is nowhere to be found, and likely outdated as anything anyway... so I thought I would start one. There has been a large number of times that stage discussion have been brought forward in the character matchup threads, but this can kind of be a centralization of those discussions.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure we did, but it wasn't found in a search of the Fox board, and I think since Fox is progressing, and each player has his own opinions on the stage list, that this kind of thread is necessary... If the old one is found... then this one can be closed no problem, but I did a search for it and nothin... : /

 

[Xiivi]

I'm fine with you starting up this new thread as the old topic died and I haven't seen the OP of that thread in a while.

Original Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=219602

 

[M@v]

Battlefield is an average stage for fox. Not good, but certainly not bad. Its really dependent on who you face here. If you face someone like a GW, Marth, or Luigi, this is going to suck for you. Other wise, you can you the plaforms to your advantage. You won't have to directly approach; you can use the platforms to gain high ground. Also, rising Fair is very nice for attacking from under the platforms, then retreating with it. I like using rising fair a lot on stage slike battlefield(norfair being another stage I do this), due to the fact you can attack them, then di away so you can't be punished, all with one swoop.


For recovery, you can go for ledge, the stage, or one of the platforms. BF gives you 4 landing places instead of one. In addition, you can walljump the wall under the ledge and come up facing the the stage backwards. I do this a lot with Falco so anyone near the ledge eats a bair. Fox's bair works well too; you just need proper timing.

Pretty decent stage. Just dont face anyone with higher priority aerials than you here.

 

[Uzima (Uzi)]

personaly i love this stage.
every one of fox's attacks fits so nicely into the shape and design of the stage.

auto canceled aerial hit people on the mid platforms, SH high DL hits people on the mid platforms. you have all of the JJC options to chase people around the platforms.
(You can even fall from the mid platform and do a auto canceled B-air)
A well aimed up-smash will hit through the mid platforms as well.
The platforms are also the perfect height for jumping around and laser canceling, drop down laser cancel, full hop onto the mid platforms TL cancel.


P.S. I woke up like 3 minutes ago so my wording is gonna be crap

 

[DarkAura]

it depends on how im playing... if im playing aggressive i hate this stage because the platforms always get in my way of Drill combos and when im playing offensively thats pretty much all i do.

but i think when i play defensively (usually how i always play) it's one of his more decent stages as i use the platforms for some great hit and run combos usually lasers, JJCs and fallthrough Bairs

 

[Exceladon City]

I personally hate this stage for any other character except Falco, Fox and GW. I don't think it's too bad of a stage if you going against characters you can combo real easily. Other characters like the aforementioned GW and Marth aren't exactly fun at BF. I don't think you'll have too much of a problem against Luigi here. You can outmanuver him pretty well and punish with rising Fairs. Laser usage is encouraged since the platforms provide adequate cover and escape routes. Never take Olimar, GW, Marth or Snake to this place. Snake controls the stage too well to do anything. Olimar camps something ridiculous and he can attack across a good length of the stage from one spot and everyone pretty much know why you shouldn't take GW or Marth to this stage.

 

[Zhamy]

Battlefield:

Overall, a decent neutral for Fox. You can do some pretty hilarious things with the platforms (the least of which are JJC traps), but really, if you're playing Marth or G&W, you'll get *****. The rest is really dependent on how you feel about the character matchups, but just note that while Battlefield is good for Fox, it might be even better for other characters.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I go between loving and hating this stage. The platform spacing is really nice, but also leads to under-platform camping, which eliminates some of Fox's options... You have quite a few recovery options, but the stage sometimes feels a bit cramped to the point of restricting some of your movement.

Overall, I think it is a good neutral for Fox. certainly not the best, but never a terrible stage to see come up, really. Its advantages and disadvantages just really come into play with the different matchups you can encounter there.



We need to get some sort of rating scale on this. The previous thread used an out-of-5 scale... but I was thinking more on a scale of 10. For example:

0 - 3:
Ranging from unwinnable to disadvantage Fox stage. Stage will greatly hurt Fox in most matchups, and should be banned. (varying levels of disadvantage from 0 to 3)

4 -6:
Very even stages. Most of the time, the stages will neither be CP or bans... and will allow skill and matchups determine the match.

7-10:
Very solid CP stages... Stage construction greatly helps Fox in most matchups, and helps him overcome some matches that he would normally have a disadvantage in. (varying levels of advantage from 7-10)

 

[SnowballBob33]

When you think about stages, you really have to consider characters. You should add to this who to CP to these places and who not to also.
For example
Avoid(You never want to play against): Falcon, Marth, Game and Watch
Caution(They have the advantage, CP if you are more comfortable): Falco, Wario
CP(Always take these people here): MK, Snake

 

[Fenrir VII]

When you think about stages, you really have to consider characters. You should add to this who to CP to these places and who not to also.
For example
Avoid(You never want to play against): Falcon, Marth, Game and Watch
Caution(They have the advantage, CP if you are more comfortable): Falco, Wario
CP(Always take these people here): MK, Snake

Oh yes.. I want this kind of discussion on here...

of course, every character cannot be discussed... but highlights (like your post) are more the welcome, and actually desired in this thread.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i think BFs ok, but it does feel a bit crampy on that stage, and other than the already mentioned characters i also don't like fighting Zelda here especially if they plan to/can pull a shiek on you....

 

[Sukai]

Neutral Air your *** off here.

 

[Dragonslayer9]

Depends on the Fox. Aerial Foxes would have a harder time focusing on juggles because of the platforms, but Foxes that focus more on the ground can take advantage of this stage IMO

 

[SnowballBob33]

The people I mentioned were examples if anyone didn't realize. Don't take snake to BF.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Alright... I'm planning to write up a summary tomorrow and start the next discussion.

if anybody wants to write one before me, I'll use it... I might add stuff to it, but I'll use it.

Just an update.


Next stage?

Final Destination. Obvs.

 

[professor mgw]

it's wise for fox to use the platforms.
ex:is under platform,:marth comes down, sidedodges close to ground. in between that session up+smash

GAME!

 

[Fenrir VII]

Updated OP. I was pretty quick about it, so if you see anything wrong, that I could do better, or that you simply disagree with, feel free to let me know, and I might consider changing it.

Nah, any help you can give here, I could definitely use... Next stage is FD, so if you have any other BF discussion, get it out quickly.

 

[Sukai]

Average for Fox, but he has to stay in certain character's faces so they can't do gay ****.
All the same against some characters he has to play gay, and his speed lets him, great for Camping, but it's a shame some characters camp better than him.

Characters Fox does well vs on this stage.
Marth, Ike, MK, Snake, Dedede, Donkey Kong, just about any enemy without a projectile.

Characters who **** Fox here/ does better than he can.
Pikachu, Sheik, Falco, Wolf, Peach, Luigi, ZSS, Olimar, Lucario, Lucas.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Characters who **** Fox here/ does better than he can.
Pikachu, Sheik, Falco, Wolf, Peach, Luigi, ZSS, Olimar, Lucario, Lucas.

Oh no, I disagree with your list here...

PIka Sheik, I guess, but the fact is, they beat Fox everywhere... I believe FD is actually one of his best CPs against them, since it gives him space to get around their dumb stuff, and outcamp both of them.

Falco, sure.

Wolf, absolutely not... Again, Fox outcamps here, even if only by baiting out reflectors

Peach is arguable, her air game is pretty scary here, sure... but idk.

Luigi? Um... You have to get Luigi away from platform domination...

ZSS is limited here, too... and Fox still out camps...

Olimar, Fox out camps... and Olimar can't fortress under a platform...FD is one of the best anti-olimar choices in the match, imo...

Lucario... hrmm... that's close. I don't really know there... I like killing his recovery here... and you outcamp him still.. I don't believe the stage gives him the advantage at all..

Lucas is tough. you might have me there, with his PK fires.



Please remember that this is not a character matchup discussion. Those are in their respective threads outside this one.
The type of character discussion that should occur in here is one of relative advantages and disadvantages. Even if a character beats Fox in general, that should not lead to people saying "don't take them here, they'll win"...when it might be one of the better CPs against them.

FD really opens up camping options, and limits people from fortressing under platforms (a minor weakness of Fox's)... so I believe in most cases, it kind of helps his harder matches....and certainly helps against any characters he outcamps.

 

[GwJ]

ROB should be under the CP section. He has way too many options here. A campy ROB can plank here so easily if he gets the percent lead. He should probably go under the no advantage section.

 

[M@v]

ROB should be under the CP section. He has way too many options here. A campy ROB can plank here so easily if he gets the percent lead. He should probably go under the no advantage section.

even though I beat you both times *COUGH*

I just had to im sorry. But yeah, R.O.B can be uber campy.


Anyway, FD. I LOVE THIS STAGE. Fox's BEST neutral without a doubt, and one of his top 3 stages imo. All the open space makes for unimpeded aerial movement, where fox belongs. Also, its ridiculously easy to camp here with fox. Upsmash kills around the average percents here; but dsmash is amazing on the edges of the stage. The way Final D's sides are set up makes it laughably easy to gimp some characters with shine. I can keep going(I will later), but im saying 9/10, with the only reason it not being a perfect is because FD does not have a super low ceiling.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Anyway, FD. I LOVE THIS STAGE. Fox's BEST neutral without a doubt, and one of his top 3 stages imo. All the open space makes for unimpeded aerial movement, where fox belongs. Also, its ridiculously easy to camp here with fox. Upsmash kills around the average percents here; but dsmash is amazing on the edges of the stage. The way Final D's sides are set up makes it laughably easy to gimp some characters with shine. I can keep going(I will later), but im saying 9/10, with the only reason it not being a perfect is because FD does not have a super low ceiling.

I agree with everything here with one small exception.

FD's lack of platforms limits Fox's recovery options... In quite a few cases, it limits his opponent's moreso... but it is something else to consider. I give that as a minor disadvantage of the stage (in a lot of cases, it HELPS him against certain chars)

But I definitely agree that FD is one of Fox's best stages hands down. I'd personally give it 8-9/10



To GwJumpman: how does FD in any way benefit a planking game? I would think that any stage with a ledge is prime for that...
I give you that ROB can camp there quite well, and it becomes an issue... so I agree with you overall, just wanted clarity.

 

[Julio_TFP]

FD is a good stage for Fox. You can hit a lot of people to the edge and kill him. But the edge is too dangerous for Fox.

Aerials are goods in this stage. You can u-throw and then attack with multihits (FAIR and DAIR are your best option) here you will have adventage with people who is bad with the air-dodge.

So, you have to use first dash attacks, NAIRs, Grabs, Jab and Ftilt. When the other have more than 30% try to use Utilt, Nair and Grabs. Combinated with FAIR and DAIR. When have more than 70% try to keep your enemy with FAIRs at the top of stage. When he failure, kick him with a BAIR or a UAIR. Late, only you have to do a DAIR to Dsmash near the edge.

Is a good stage for Fox. But I think Battlefield is best for fox. But here, he can do a great game in the edge, and if the other try to do a walljump in the edge you can use shine to kill or chain him with the shine.

8.5/10

 

[DarkAura]

i pretty much agree with Julio

FD is a camper friendly stage (no brainer) and this factor alone gets fox and advantage as it's a playground of SHDLs,SHLs, and lasers. the edge however isn't that bad... i mean fox can get caught right under the ledge and if your good enough with fire fox you shouldn't have that problem...

personally i dont like FD that much, same goes for battlefield. IMO the best stages for fox are brinstar and halberd.

brinstar because of the low ceiling and awquard terrain give fox a fairly large advantage over somebody like ike. plus you can pass through the main platform which opens up a alot of combo/ledge options

Halberd: low ceiling, pasthrough platform (when in air) and my favourite part... the lasers and the bombs (from the stage) I LOVE THROWING PEOPLE INTO THESE

so yeah... thats all my opinion

 

[GwJ]

even though I beat you both times *COUGH*

I just had to im sorry. But yeah, R.O.B can be uber campy.


Anyway, FD. I LOVE THIS STAGE. Fox's BEST neutral without a doubt, and one of his top 3 stages imo. All the open space makes for unimpeded aerial movement, where fox belongs. Also, its ridiculously easy to camp here with fox. Upsmash kills around the average percents here; but dsmash is amazing on the edges of the stage. The way Final D's sides are set up makes it laughably easy to gimp some characters with shine. I can keep going(I will later), but im saying 9/10, with the only reason it not being a perfect is because FD does not have a super low ceiling.

Yea, I'm still working on how to handle some characters, mainly Fox and Sonics.

 

[SnowballBob33]

FD goes to fox because of all what Mav said. No platforms means less interuptions from aerials. A lot of space to run around and camp on. Ledges mess up opponents more than it does you because of the multiple ways you can angle firefox. His best stage imo.

 

[M@v]

Credit to the Peach boards for finding this, but I think could be EXTREMELY useful to us. The stage ceilings for ALL the stages:

Originally Posted by Thinkaman

Stage Ceiling Height:
(highest to lowest, from bottom platform)
(Amount of damage required for grounded Mario to be KO'd by an undiminished, fully charged Mario up-smash. Less damage needed = lower ceiling. Damages/heights are listed for major platforms as well on some stages, in ascending order. Some stages that were difficult (like Delfino) were not closely examined, and some stages no one cares about were skipped entirely.)

New Pork City: 118 (Bottom)
Jungle Japes: 100/97/93
Summit: 94 (Bottom) 71 (Top)
Green Hill Zone: 89/80/74
Luigi's Mansion: 88/84/78/67
Mario Circuit: 88/81/73
Shadow Moses: 88/80/70
Onett: 88
Pirate Ship: 85
Skyworld: 85/80/76/70
Havenbow: 85
Pictochat: 84
Eldin: 83
Pokemon Stadium 2: 83/75
Battlefield: 82/75/68
FD: 82
Delfino: 82
Norfair: 82/74/67
Yoshi's Island: 82/75
Lylat Cruise: 82/74
Spear Pillar: 82
Castle Siege: 82-88-81
Distant Planet: 82
Smashville: 82/74
Frigate: 81-77
Brinstar: 81/74/68
Wario Ware: 79
Halberd: 77/75/68-73/65
Aero Dive: 77
FlatZone2: 77
Rainbow Ride: 75
Green Greens: 75
Yoshi's Island (Melee): 74
Corneria: 74/70/57
Mushroomy: 67

 

[Xyless]

Now now, we're just using it for research. The origin is here.

Project Vertical

 

[Sukai]

Oh no, I disagree with your list here...

PIka Sheik, I guess, but the fact is, they beat Fox everywhere... I believe FD is actually one of his best CPs against them, since it gives him space to get around their dumb stuff, and outcamp both of them.

Sheik maybe, but not Pikachu, Pikachu out camps Fox here and severely limits his options.

Wolf, absolutely not... Again, Fox outcamps here, even if only by baiting out reflectors

Sure, in a camping contest, sure, but Wolf has more options of a larger stage, has more range and priority, plus Wolf's reflector has more offensive use than Fox's, just saying Final Destination is not a stage you want to CP on a Wolf, there are better places to take him.

Peach is arguable, her air game is pretty scary here, sure... but idk.

Peach has a tilt lock and her air game is free range here.
Don't forget turnips.

Luigi? Um... You have to get Luigi away from platform domination...

I could make and argument here, but I guess Luigi is a personal issue for my Fox to deal with.

ZSS is limited here, too... and Fox still out camps...

Oh, no one told you? ZSS can infinite Fox with her down smash, a big stage means longer infinites. Plus ZSS has a sick bait and punish game.

Olimar, Fox out camps... and Olimar can't fortress under a platform...FD is one of the best anti-olimar choices in the match, imo...

Think other than just camping for a second. Olimar has more range and options here. Even more so now that there aren't any platforms to get in the way of his pikmin and grabs.

Lucario... hrmm... that's close. I don't really know there... I like killing his recovery here... and you outcamp him still.. I don't believe the stage gives him the advantage at all..

It doesn't, but Lucario has more options here, his deceiving range and combos don't spell too much of good for Fox, again, the lack of platforms slims Fox's defense, unless you want to play a shoot and run game.

Lucas is tough. you might have me there, with his PK fires.

And his broken Neutral air, which ***** Fox.

Please remember that this is not a character matchup discussion. Those are in their respective threads outside this one.
The type of character discussion that should occur in here is one of relative advantages and disadvantages. Even if a character beats Fox in general, that should not lead to people saying "don't take them here, they'll win"...when it might be one of the better CPs against them.

FD really opens up camping options, and limits people from fortressing under platforms (a minor weakness of Fox's)... so I believe in most cases, it kind of helps his harder matches....and certainly helps against any characters he outcamps.

I know it's not a Match up discussion, but with stages, you have to compare them to characters who do better or worse on them, it's a natural element of determining how well does a character perform on a stage, don't misunderstand my statements.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Sheik maybe, but not Pikachu, Pikachu out camps Fox here and severely limits his options.

Pika doesn't outcamp Fox... : /

Sure, in a camping contest, sure, but Wolf has more options of a larger stage, has more range and priority, plus Wolf's reflector has more offensive use than Fox's, just saying Final Destination is not a stage you want to CP on a Wolf, there are better places to take him.

That's fine. there might be better places... but Wolf doesn't have any advantage on FD... Fox can generally out-maneuver Wolf, so larger space = better for Fox... Wolf's range is nuts, sure... but that's true on any stage. Wolf's reflector doesn't, imo, come into play here... at least not as much as it does on platforms. A platform drop reflector is better in an offensive sense than anything he's going to do with it on FD. Wolf is also more limited in aerial options (in a defensive sense) than Fox is, so upward attacks and throws could cause him much more trouble than for Fox. Wolf is also much more hurt by the lack of recovery options... I believe this stage is sorely in Fox's favor in the match.

Peach has a tilt lock and her air game is free range here.
Don't forget turnips.

Turnips only have the use of setting up other pressure situations. Not a very good camping or long distance option at all. Tilt lock is everywhere, is it not? and air game.. yeah, it's nice here...

Oh, no one told you? ZSS can infinite Fox with her down smash, a big stage means longer infinites. Plus ZSS has a sick bait and punish game.

um... ZSS can roll behind to continue the combo the other way... meaning she can do a complete infinite on any size stage. protip: don't use sarcasm when you're wrong.

Platforms would be helpful in avoiding the dsmash, so this probably isn't the best choice here... but again, Fox's long range options, and his ability to beat a bait and punish situation... mixed with the fact that a ZSS dsmash should never be hitting a Fox where she can 0-death him... still give Fox more options...

Think other than just camping for a second. Olimar has more range and options here. Even more so now that there aren't any platforms to get in the way of his pikmin and grabs.

Ok... I'm going to ignore the fact that you can play keep away the whole match and win it, because Oli simply doesn't have the options to chase it down...

And...you're still wrong. Oli has more range everywhere, so that argument is nullified. Fox has more of an option in coming from above, where he literally out prioritizes everything Olimar has. Olimars use platforms to block upward advances, and use their range to beat everything else, using usmash or uair (I've seen both) to punish anybody on the platform. and it's a scary good tactic against Fox... eliminate that, and Fox has almost free reign... even without an incredible anti-olimar tactic (camping)

It doesn't, but Lucario has more options here, his deceiving range and combos don't spell too much of good for Fox, again, the lack of platforms slims Fox's defense, unless you want to play a shoot and run game.

You keep saying ____ has more options... and I simply don't agree with you. Lucario, similar to Olimar, can play a nice fortress game with his smashes under platforms... Of course his air game is good... but it's very beatable by Fox.. and much less scary than the former. The lack of platforms actually increases Fox's relative defense, because he is not able to use them as well in most matchups as his opponent... therefore, the lack of platforms HELPS him..

And assuming you want to win.. why would you not play a shoot and run game, when applicable?

And his (Lucas') broken Neutral air, which ***** Fox.

...until Fox learns to utilt... and again... Nair is not stage dependent... so what does it matter here?

I know it's not a Match up discussion, but with stages, you have to compare them to characters who do better or worse on them, it's a natural element of determining how well does a character perform on a stage, don't misunderstand my statements.

Yes... I agree... however, you say ______ has this tactic, which beats Fox... even though many of those tactics are just as easily performed on every stage in the game...

Again.. this is relative... we are discussing how greatly the stage helps/hurts Fox in relation to what it does to his opponent... and I simply believe that FD gives him more options...and takes away fewer options... than his opponents in most cases.

 

[SnowballBob33]

Yea, don't look at the specific things like olimar having range or something. Things like that will always apply regardless. Look at how they can manuever around platforms, use them to trap you, or avoid bad situations which will give one of the characters the advantage.

Wolf beats fox on BF. Bair, fair, and uair **** when you are on platforms. His lasers go themajority of BF while only going half of FD. He can't stage teleport illusion thing on FD meaning his way of getting on the stage is limited. Also, you can't dair aproach as much becuase of platforms.

ZSS likes bf more than fox. Her whip goes thru platforms like its nothing. If we are on a platform, she keeps whipping and uair, and we cant laser. When we are on the ground, less space to avoid dsmash. Also, she manuevers around the stage well with down B to avoid our moves so basically she gets that stage instead of FD.

And lucas' nair does ****. His pk fire is hard to stop. Absorb stops lasers. So that means we would want a large stage to be able to outrange his pfkire which is FD. Nair stops everything when you are on platforms. You can't do battlefield because the only way to approach is from the top and nothing can really stop dair other than platforms.

Snake:
Grenades above and below you is more trouble. Along with mines. Nair messes you up bad when you are stuck on platforms. Utilt is more dangerous. Trapped with his overlarge range tilts. Basically, he will win BF. Take him to FD because it gives you more room to run around(just like against most other characters). You aren't as confined to a tight area with his tilts. You have time to see mortar slide and react better.

Diddy:
FD means all the room in the world to use his banana spam.

 

[Sukai]

Pika doesn't outcamp Fox... : /

Simply by crouching, Pikachu outcamps Fox. What are you talking about? Not to mention that annoying projectile that doesn't do much if reflected, if Fox has platforms, he has more maneuverability as to avoid the Lightning Jolt, with out wasting time reflecting and trying to squeeze short hop lasers in that probably won't hit.

That's fine. there might be better places... but Wolf doesn't have any advantage on FD... Fox can generally out-maneuver Wolf, so larger space = better for Fox... Wolf's range is nuts, sure... but that's true on any stage. Wolf's reflector doesn't, imo, come into play here... at least not as much as it does on platforms. A platform drop reflector is better in an offensive sense than anything he's going to do with it on FD. Wolf is also more limited in aerial options (in a defensive sense) than Fox is, so upward attacks and throws could cause him much more trouble than for Fox. Wolf is also much more hurt by the lack of recovery options... I believe this stage is sorely in Fox's favor in the match.

I see it as platforms helps Fox get through a lot of Wolf's attacks.
And the reflector is a staple to Wolf's game. It comes into play everywhere, but without platforms, they require less strategy, he can shine spike Fox through both of his recoveries, Wolf's reflector is the same as Fox's, but (notwithstanding that Wolf's can't halt momentum) his has a better hitbox and enough priority to get past a lot of Fox's attacks, again the lack of platforms makes it easier for Wolf.

Turnips only have the use of setting up other pressure situations. Not a very good camping or long distance option at all. Tilt lock is everywhere, is it not? and air game.. yeah, it's nice here...

With platforms, Fox can DI up onto one to escape Peach's lock faster. Turnips are a great edge guarding tool, any Peach main can tell you that.

um... ZSS can roll behind to continue the combo the other way... meaning she can do a complete infinite on any size stage. protip: don't use sarcasm when you're wrong.

Yeah she can infinite on any stage, but again, the lack of platforms gifts her with an easier approach to do so, with platforms she'll have to really try to his him if Fox makes good use of them, with platforms ZSS may not even try. Fox has nothing protecting him on Final Destination.
Protip: I wasn't wrong.

Platforms would be helpful in avoiding the dsmash, so this probably isn't the best choice here... but again, Fox's long range options, and his ability to beat a bait and punish situation... mixed with the fact that a ZSS dsmash should never be hitting a Fox where she can 0-death him... still give Fox more options...

ZSS can crouch camp Fox. Bait his approach, infinite.
Good Game, Counter Pick, because Final Destination is certainly not the right one.

You keep saying ____ has more options... and I simply don't agree with you.

I can elaborate.

Lucario, similar to Olimar, can play a nice fortress game with his smashes under platforms... Of course his air game is good... but it's very beatable by Fox..

Hell no he can't, Lucario out ranges and prioritizes Fox in the air department, his up air can eat right through Fox's down air and his forward air combos into a neutral air or down air, Fox has some hard hitting stuff, but not as much as Lucario.

and much less scary than the former. The lack of platforms actually increases Fox's relative defense, because he is not able to use them as well in most matchups as his opponent... therefore, the lack of platforms HELPS him..

I suppose, but Lucario really has a zing here. I'd take Lucario to Smashville, as a platform DOES in fact help. Plus Lucario can chain grab Fox with his side B, again, a large stage means more chain grabs.

And assuming you want to win.. why would you not play a shoot and run game, when applicable?

Because you have to be honest, Fox isn't the best camper, some characters can camp better than him with less effort And shoot and run won't win matches, because it's not a winning tactic on most of the cast--which is why I yield to you with Olimar. It racks up damage and keeps Fox safe for a while. If it was a viable victory plan, wouldn't Fox be recognized for it more so than now?

...until Fox learns to utilt... and again... Nair is not stage dependent... so what does it matter here?

You haven't played any good Lucases have you? Again, platforms give Fox a better defense, you'd be surprised how safe Lucas can poke a neutral air in with a simple short hop.
It autocancels by the way.

Yes... I agree... however, you say ______ has this tactic, which beats Fox... even though many of those tactics are just as easily performed on every stage in the game...

You over exaggerate. I didn't say it beat Fox, although some of them do, I'm saying that Fox has a better defense against it on other stages.
If you're playing to win, why wouldn't you pick a better stage to handle ____ character?

Again.. this is relative... we are discussing how greatly the stage helps/hurts Fox in relation to what it does to his opponent... and I simply believe that FD gives him more options...and takes away fewer options... than his opponents in most cases.

I simply believe that Fox can handle some characters on a different stage.

Yea, don't look at the specific things like olimar having range or something. Things like that will always apply regardless.

Like Fox's camping?

 

[Fenrir VII]

You say you understand that we're not discussing matchups, but you keep throwing things in that have absolutely no stage-specific relevance...

Simply by crouching, Pikachu outcamps Fox. What are you talking about? Not to mention that annoying projectile that doesn't do much if reflected, if Fox has platforms, he has more maneuverability as to avoid the Lightning Jolt, with out wasting time reflecting and trying to squeeze short hop lasers in that probably won't hit.

Wow, you missed a lot of char discussions... If somebody crouches lasers... Fox keeps lasering. He doesn't have to approach in that situation. In fact, since he is lasering, he is less applicable to be called stalling on, and Pika would be in danger of DQing for stalling. Of course this is an extreme situation... but Fox can stand there all day and laser...

Also, he won't be reflecting T-Jolt...

I see it as platforms helps Fox get through a lot of Wolf's attacks. Blanket statement... how? Fox combos wolf and string attacks better than Wolf does to Fox here... he is also MUCh better at punishing when Wolf is in the air than the reverse... so lack of platforms means there will be more situations where Wolf is in the air, and Fox is on the ground. (that's just reasonable), and Fox can punish it....
And the reflector is a staple to Wolf's game. It comes into play everywhere, but without platforms, they require less strategy, he can shine spike Fox through both of his recoveries, Wolf's reflector is the same as Fox's, but (notwithstanding that Wolf's can't halt momentum) his has a better hitbox and enough priority to get past a lot of Fox's attacks, again the lack of platforms makes it easier for Wolf.

Shine's properties are applicable everywhere... shinespike is irrelevant. I know shine is a staple, however, it is much more strategic (read: useful) with platforms.... Also, as Bob said, FD limits Wolf's mobility moreso than other stages...

With platforms, Fox can DI up onto one to escape Peach's lock faster. Turnips are a great edge guarding tool, any Peach main can tell you that.

edgeguarding is not stage dependent, and is, as such, irrelevant. not to mention the fact that rising fair poops on turnips... If Fox can escape faster, that's a decent reason... and I didn't argue Peach that much, simply because her air game is nuts.

Yeah she can infinite on any stage, but again, the lack of platforms gifts her with an easier approach to do so, with platforms she'll have to really try to his him if Fox makes good use of them, with platforms ZSS may not even try. Fox has nothing protecting him on Final Destination.
Protip: I wasn't wrong.

Actually, yeah you were... you said bigger stage = longer infinite... not true.
And ZSS is just as sapable of fortressing under a platform as a number of other chars, really limiting Fox's option... Again, another place may be better, but FD isn't a bad choice in the match, because Fox can outcamp, and out maneuver her... on that point:

ZSS can crouch camp Fox. Bait his approach, infinite.
Good Game, Counter Pick, because Final Destination is certainly not the right one.

Again, not relevant. crouch camping is applicable everywhere. Please, please stick to stage-dependent factors.

And again... Fox never has to approach a crouching opponent... faulty logic. FD isn't bad here.

Hell no he can't, Lucario out ranges and prioritizes Fox in the air department, his up air can eat right through Fox's down air and his forward air combos into a neutral air or down air, Fox has some hard hitting stuff, but not as much as Lucario.

Yeah, Lucario can fortress... but moving on... I understand how Lucario's aerials beat Fox's... not hard to fathom. Dash shield gets inside quite a few of them, however, and allows Fox to punish. That is irrelevant in stage discussion... my main point, though... is that Fox is VERY good at punishing in a situation where he is on the ground, and his opponent is in the air....and that happens much more often on FD. Lucario is no exception... because you can beat his range with a dash shield, sliding past the hitboxes.... Again, really nothing you stated there is stage dependent... platforms give Lucario more options of movement... and situations where he can get around Fox's stuff...

For example, on BF, Lucario can Dair on a drop from a platform, hit BELOW the platform, but not fall through it...that kind of stuff and weird mobility issues give him more of an advantage with platforms...

I suppose, but Lucario really has a zing here. I'd take Lucario to Smashville, as a platform DOES in fact help. Plus Lucario can chain grab Fox with his side B, again, a large stage means more chain grabs.

smaller stage means easier to land CGs... not to mention that Lucario's chain grab only goes about an inch either direction, last 3-4 grabs, and you're free... It doesn't take that much space at all, so the bigger stage = longer cg thing isn't true.

Because you have to be honest, Fox isn't the best camper, some characters can camp better than him with less effort And shoot and run won't win matches, because it's not a winning tactic on most of the cast--which is why I yield to you with Olimar. It racks up damage and keeps Fox safe for a while. If it was a viable victory plan, wouldn't Fox be recognized for it more so than now?

That's similar to the "if Fox did well against high tiers, wouldn't everybody know about it?" argument... no, not necessarily. It all depends on Fox players...of which, there aren't many... and of those, not many have the patience to camp with a pretty weak laser... It is just used, mainly, as a tool to make your opponent approach... giving Fox the advantage.

I did not say Fox is the best camper... however, in a camping scenario, he beats almost every other character due to his better mobility, fast projectile, and reflector if he needs it. And yeah, it's a winning tactic on a large chunk of the cast... so "most" doesn't really work here.

You haven't played any good Lucases have you? Again, platforms give Fox a better defense, you'd be surprised how safe Lucas can poke a neutral air in with a simple short hop.
It autocancels by the way.

This has been known since before the US release.... again irrelevant... Lucas can SH Nair on every stage... he can also use it (autocanceling) rising to a platform, then jab you, if nothing else... making for very safe mobility... Fox's utilt does beat it... so i'm not sure why you said the first statement... I know about Lucas's Nair... but that isn't stage dependent... I just made the case where platforms HELP it... how do platforms give Fox a better defense?

I simply believe that Fox can handle some characters on a different stage.

um...of course he can... however, that does noteliminate FD as a good CP...

Like Fox's camping?

Wow... you think that was a good argument? I am beginning to wonder if you're just joking here.

Fox's camping obviously is helped by a larger stage in general. If his opponent has to remain on the ground after that (as is the case with most characters... some have enough aerial mobility to just stay there forever), it greatly helps his whole mentality... you have to SHDL blindly, and usually one will connect. And you're a safe distance away from the opponent, to allow you time to react to anything they send. Again, it is more applicable on large stages... so Lylat helps camping as well, as an example.

Camping serves two main purposes.

1. apply pressure and make your opponent approach... since Fox has very good defensive options, this puts him in a better position.
2. refill other moves, and put a small amount of damage on with the lasers.


Again, please, if you want to discuss in here, only use stage-dependent information. Wolf's shinespike, Lucas's SH nair, or Peach's edgeguarding turnips have no place in here...



Bob made another interesting point, and should be modeled in these discussions...

You would not want to CP Diddy with FD because his banana control, and good mobility with a large stage REALLY help him here... You would take Diddy to a smaller, platformed stage, to mess with his nanner options. THAT is the kind of discussion we need in here...

There may be a better stage to take opponents to, but if the current stage gives a decent advantage to Fox in the matchup, there is absolutely no reason to have that matchup on a "don't CP here" list... that is very misleading in this type of discussion...

 

[718_ROOKI3]

I love camping and FD is great, did i mention that FD is a counter pick stage XD Brawl is so dumb

 

[Sukai]

The factor that "this" works on every stage can be credited in stage discussion, as to portray how well can Fox defend himself from/avoid "this" on "X" stage. If you wish to argue with that then I'll stop.

Once again, if you're playing to win, why wouldn't you go for the most efficient stage, which is not always Final Destination?

 

[Zhamy]

Alright, long story short:

When you're looking at stages WITHOUT REGARD TO SPECIFIC MATCHUPS (which is what we're doing), you want to be looking at things that, for the most part, give Fox advantages, or things that, for the most part, give Fox disadvantages. If there are a significant number of matchups that impede Fox's ability on a stage (one matchup is not a lot, people), then it should be considered in the rating. Otherwise, no.

 

[Fenrir VII]

The factor that "this" works on every stage can be credited in stage discussion, as to portray how well can Fox defend himself from/avoid "this" on "X" stage. If you wish to argue with that then I'll stop.

Once again, if you're playing to win, why wouldn't you go for the most efficient stage, which is not always Final Destination?

what if your opponent bans the "most efficient" stage? The point I am trying to get across is that there may be better stages to take his opponents to, but if Fox has an advantage on FD...or even if it's even, that opponent character should not be placed on a "do not CP" list. That would be misleading to people looking for good CPs against certain characters... Often, you need to know several good CP choices, and choose between them in a tourney match to choose the best one based on a large number of factors. Also, any kind of 3/5 match, you are bound to need 2 different CPs, aside from what you've already played, and what has been banned.

While I agree, to some extent, that how Fox gets around every tactic on every stage would be helpful... you were using those examples as reasons FD should not be chosen....when in fact, they can be used on every stage

Alright, long story short:

When you're looking at stages WITHOUT REGARD TO SPECIFIC MATCHUPS (which is what we're doing), you want to be looking at things that, for the most part, give Fox advantages, or things that, for the most part, give Fox disadvantages. If there are a significant number of matchups that impede Fox's ability on a stage (one matchup is not a lot, people), then it should be considered in the rating. Otherwise, no.

I agree with this. However, we are also trying to compile a list of characters Fox would benefit by CPing this stage on. While they really shouldn't come into any kind of rating, etc, I feel they should be considered....to get a general idea of what stages are good CPs for which chars...

 

[Pancakesyo]

this is fox best stage IMO.