Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
that was smooth
-
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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-
- Thread starter Silent Wolf
- Start date
Bones0
Smash Legend
Getting lucky. KP should have LH uaired you.
xDD-Master
Smash Champion
How many frames of error do I have to succesfully do a SHDL ? (By this I basically ask, on what frame after the 3rd (SH Start Up finish) I have to start the DL latest)
Another question:
Which characters can be Waveshine-Comboed truely (Answer pls for PAL if possible, I know Marth acts different on Shine in NTSC/PAL)
Or if its weight dependent, could someone give me a list of melee character weights?
And also, on what characters Waveshine to Waveshine stops working and also Waveshine->UpSmash.
I would love to get into Melee, but as I come from Brawl, I dont really know where to start improving.
So you might as well just link me to a fox guide or something.
But I would really appreciate if you could answer my questions above
That would already help! THX!
Another question:
Which characters can be Waveshine-Comboed truely (Answer pls for PAL if possible, I know Marth acts different on Shine in NTSC/PAL)
Or if its weight dependent, could someone give me a list of melee character weights?
And also, on what characters Waveshine to Waveshine stops working and also Waveshine->UpSmash.
I would love to get into Melee, but as I come from Brawl, I dont really know where to start improving.
So you might as well just link me to a fox guide or something.
But I would really appreciate if you could answer my questions above
That would already help! THX!
Xyzz
Smash Champion
I doubt anybody has a complete list of all 26 characters in his head, since about half of them are rather irrelevant. And it's something you can easily try: go into training mode, shine a character, see if he falls over; repeat with the others.
SHDL has one frame of leniency. Lasers come out frame 10, and every 10 frames after that if you keep hitting b fast enough; fox has 21 frames of air time after a short hop, if you don't fast fall. So either you shoot the frame you leave the ground, or the one after that, otherwise your second laser isn't happening.
SHDL is a terrible thing to learn, if you're just starting out. You should start with the basics, like consistent SHFFLs regardless of whether you whiff or hit somebody, making sure your wavedashes are perfect, getting up throw to up air consistent on different character weights, just moving around the stage with WD / DD / wavelands and being 100% sure that the fox is going precisely where you want him to go, etcpp.
SHDL has one frame of leniency. Lasers come out frame 10, and every 10 frames after that if you keep hitting b fast enough; fox has 21 frames of air time after a short hop, if you don't fast fall. So either you shoot the frame you leave the ground, or the one after that, otherwise your second laser isn't happening.
SHDL is a terrible thing to learn, if you're just starting out. You should start with the basics, like consistent SHFFLs regardless of whether you whiff or hit somebody, making sure your wavedashes are perfect, getting up throw to up air consistent on different character weights, just moving around the stage with WD / DD / wavelands and being 100% sure that the fox is going precisely where you want him to go, etcpp.
Kadano
Magical Express
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Weight#Super_Smash_Bros._Melee_weight_values
Every character with 85 weight or lower falls over.
It doesn’t work against characters who fall over. Against everyone else, it always works if you either walk or dash into shine / upsmash depending on the victim’s traction (except if they slide off the stage or Luigi does multiple shield SDI away).
Also worth noting are the floaties that will not be true-comboed. Luigi and IC's go too far, but for especially Icies you will often find yourself in an advantageous position regardless - esp if you manage to split them up. NTSC Marth goes pretty far even if he doesn't get knocked down, so it's kinda hard to true combo him from a shine
xDD-Master
Smash Champion
But vs. Peach for example, Waveshine to Waveshine to Waveshine ... is true right?
@Xyzz: I do that already! I just want to learn more about the game. I play melee since 4 years, even though I am/was mostly a brawl players. I know what I do right/wrong, it's just that I dont know the in-depth melee stuff.
And you are right, that I first should start getting a good feeling for my character.
Another thing:
Is there any good way to learn SHFFL on shielding oppenants?
I can do it pretty consistent on whiffing and hitting (no shield) but as soon as my oppenant shields I find the timing to be very weird, and oppenants never shield... so I have no idea how to correctly learn that ._.
Does anyone have a good idea on how to train that?
I wish there was a mode/way to make shields stay the same size, then I would just use a second controller... but smash p-mode always sucked, so that isnt an option I guess <_<"
@Xyzz: I do that already! I just want to learn more about the game. I play melee since 4 years, even though I am/was mostly a brawl players. I know what I do right/wrong, it's just that I dont know the in-depth melee stuff.
And you are right, that I first should start getting a good feeling for my character.
Another thing:
Is there any good way to learn SHFFL on shielding oppenants?
I can do it pretty consistent on whiffing and hitting (no shield) but as soon as my oppenant shields I find the timing to be very weird, and oppenants never shield... so I have no idea how to correctly learn that ._.
Does anyone have a good idea on how to train that?
I wish there was a mode/way to make shields stay the same size, then I would just use a second controller... but smash p-mode always sucked, so that isnt an option I guess <_<"
rokimomi
Smash Lord
bowser lvl 1, your handicap lvl 1, he's handicap lvl 9, damage ratio set to 0.5, shuffle away
xDD-Master
Smash Champion
I heard that before, but its not the same.
The reason I struggle with Shield is simple, that my hitbox is hitting "something" (Here: The Shield) sooner than if the other one isnt shielding (Which would be the body).
Therefore I screw up my FF timing
Thx nevertheless.
balladechina212
Smash Ace
With SHFFL nairs + nair-shines, go to training mode and give the CPU Starman and go hard
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
I heard that before, but its not the same.
The reason I struggle with Shield is simple, that my hitbox is hitting "something" (Here: The Shield) sooner than if the other one isnt shielding (Which would be the body).
Therefore I screw up my FF timing
Thx nevertheless.
I know exactly what you're talking about. This was the same reason why I struggled with it, even using the starman. I fixed it by getting AR and enabling infinite shield. Then I was able to just stick one of the triggers so the shield was always pushed in and shffl away happily. You can get AR the same way you can get hacked melee.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
rokimomi
Smash Lord
lolz, got tired of it, feynman matches my fake facebook acct anyways, ^_^
balladechina212
Smash Ace
Is starman really not the same as shield? Feels pretty similar
Bones0
Smash Legend
MISINFORMATION!
xDD-Master
Smash Champion
What is Yoshi's parry?
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
Is this frame data confirmed or just how it feels because the opponent does not get the hitlag/shieldlag?
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
^Very relevant question.
xDD-Master
Smash Champion
Yeah the hitlag shouldn't be more... at least from Brawl Hacking I know that the hitlag is depending on the move you do, not on what you hit.
balladechina212
Smash Ace
Bones0
Smash Legend
Ummm, nvm. Idk why I thought that. I did my best to test it in Training Mode, and the hitlag seemed identical regardless of whether I hit an invincibile opponent or not. The only way I could think to test it was to slow the game to 1/4th speed and go to Mushroom Kingdom II. I used two Wavebird receivers on the same frequency to knee perfectly in sync, and I kneed a Birdo (which feels like kneeing a normal opponent) and a third CPU at the same time. I would have just used 4 CPUs but apparently there is team attack preventing human-controlled CPUs from hitting other CPUs. Not super scientific, but it certainly seemed like both Falcons were landing on the same frame.
What you learned today was to never trust Smash wikis. None of those are an actual description of parrying. The "shield counter" they talk about is referring to powershielding, and I'm pretty sure the 2-frame window is for projectiles, not physical attacks, and you can't attack out of shield release from a projectile PS. A parry is essentially using the invincibility frames that take place during the beginning of his shield animation to block an attack and then JCing before the invincibility ends. You can't JC once Yoshi's shield is fully up, which I believe is frame 8, but you are actually still invincible and incapable of JCing on frame 7. I could be wrong about some details, but that's at least close enough that you should get the idea.
Silent Wolf
...
There's definitely a difference between hitting a character and hitting a shield tho. Hitting shields gives you noticeably more hit lag for each move. Also, the lighter the shield is you hit (as in light shielding, not a small shield lol), the more hit lag there will be for both players.
atangerine
Smash Cadet
I heard that before, but its not the same.
The reason I struggle with Shield is simple, that my hitbox is hitting "something" (Here: The Shield) sooner than if the other one isnt shielding (Which would be the body).
Therefore I screw up my FF timing
Thx nevertheless.
Stars kind of imitate a shield, so you could try the level one Bowser with stars set on high.
I need help with Fox vs Marth:
Is pressure the way to go in the MU? Or laser
camping?
In what way should Fox out-space Marth?
Is pressure the way to go in the MU? Or laser
camping?
In what way should Fox out-space Marth?
Silent Wolf
...
angel beats doe.
you would only wanna use lasers on stages like dream land, stadium and FD. aka big stages where he cant be near you. its usually not worth the risk otherwise. also dont back yourself into the corner just to get a few lasers. fox is in a pretty advantageous situation when hes able to pressure marth, so ideally youd like to create openings for that. when trying to get in on marth, you pretty much only want to approach from the ground. try not to get forced into the air if you dont have to, although good platform play can get you back down safely usually. experiment with overshooting moves, mainly shine and maybe nair, if you think you can do it so he cant punish you. with good dash dancing you can bait his dtilt and run in and shine him to punish. dont expect to punish marth much from the air. as soon as he dashes his frame shifts way over, so it often looks like you can get him with stuff like fj bair but he just dashes away and grabs. try and convert any ground hits to either putting him into the air or off stage stage. hes really vulnerable when hes floating down, and fox can **** his recovery too
mess around with run in shield too. and you dont wanna just keep running in and overshooting stuff cuz hes gonna start waiting and stuff you. so at times like that its ok to laser. maybe dash in, then back and laser
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
Don't use lasers to rack on damage, just use it to send them a message that you will NOT be approaching. And then wait for his approach and dash dance a lot and your ultimate prize should be getting a grab
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Whoa this place suddenly got quiet.
Silent Wolf
...
Everyone finally realized the fox thread is hella gei
Everyone finally realized how much of a ****ty character Fox is and switched mains. 
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
is it really that tight timing wise? as far as difficulty it doesn't seem like a one frame kinda thing
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
Kline, normal people quote posts and write their response below the quoted text.
Also ROFL SHDL has a ton of frames of leniency. Please. The first thing that should strike you as odd about that claim is that there is, intuitively and obviously, much more startup for the first laser shot than any consecutive lases fired after that.
Also ROFL SHDL has a ton of frames of leniency. Please. The first thing that should strike you as odd about that claim is that there is, intuitively and obviously, much more startup for the first laser shot than any consecutive lases fired after that.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
normality is overrated. and I didn't want my first post in Hella to be like naaa ***** sounds like u spittin that bull****.
Bones0
Smash Legend
If you want to hit anyone other than Ganon with both lasers, I think you have to shoot the first laser 1-2 frames after jumping.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
This doesn't sound right at all lol.
Silent Wolf
...
Ooo0o the callout
Bones is right. There is a 3 frame window on the first laser if you just want both lasers to come out. Against half the cast, it's impossible to hit them with both lasers. Among the other half, most of them have a one frame window. The only exceptions are marth and ganon, with 3 frame windows on both. This is all assuming they are just standing. Most characters bend down a little bit when they walk or dash, so that would make it even harder to hit. I'm pretty sure you can't hit a dashing marth with both lasers.
Source: People have known this for years. I think superdoodleman tested it first. I just tested in dolphin to make sure.
Source: People have known this for years. I think superdoodleman tested it first. I just tested in dolphin to make sure.
dkuo
Smash Lord
hm I doubt people will be staying grounded the entire time when you're shdl'ing them constantly so it's not like missing that 1 frame window is terrible. then again...I stay grounded vs shdl a lot lol. so i can be completely wrong
either way the 3 frame window is pretty comfy and does the job even if the 1st laser goes over their head when they're grounded. but i also agree that its not super vital to learn
either way the 3 frame window is pretty comfy and does the job even if the 1st laser goes over their head when they're grounded. but i also agree that its not super vital to learn
Bones0
Smash Legend
You should give me a shoutout for being right next time a Fox SHDLs when you are commentating.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
hammer=dropped. pew pew
Question....basically im bout to body this ***** andy at the next local....they call him the prime lol....somebody throw some fox samus tips at ya boi. I noticed im able to get hits but recently I havent been making them count nearly as much as I can.
help on improving my punish game....maybe otto or toph have a few aerial strings I could try...hit me
.... ... .... ....elipses
Question....basically im bout to body this ***** andy at the next local....they call him the prime lol....somebody throw some fox samus tips at ya boi. I noticed im able to get hits but recently I havent been making them count nearly as much as I can.
help on improving my punish game....maybe otto or toph have a few aerial strings I could try...hit me
.... ... .... ....elipses
The most common answer to your question would be "get more techskill". Other than that, just learn your hitstuns, and be patient after you attack.