- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
Thanks for clearing that up. So it is staling.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-
- Thread starter Silent Wolf
- Start date
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
This game is nuts. So many mechanics interact in such elegant ways, encouraging development of sophisticated strategies and offering room to solve or work around otherwise abusive mechanics.
Coffeeblack
Smash Journeyman
Yea yea yea
Rocketpowerchill
Smash Ace
i dont know if i ever see people diing it up, it gives you lots of time to tech but cud you get punished this way
is there a quicker way to tech fox shine like di down?
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
I tech into the ground a ton. Maybe not as good as Amsah back then, but a good amount of the time (I happen to be really good at even if i don't get it on the ground I often get it on the platform as well rofl)
All I really do is depending on the direction I'm facing is input forward, forward-down, and down and usually hit my tech button (L or R) when i start with forward. The big thing about a lot of techs (wall techs, this one, etc.) is you need to hit the tech button before hitstun happens. A lot of people try to time it right when it happens and end up doing the tech too late.
Rocketpowerchill
Smash Ace
will certain di have a big impact on being able to tech something or not, like when you start getting knocked down by falcos dair, cant you just press shield on reaction to tech it?
obviously to get the techs at highpercents, you will need double stick
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
Bones0
Smash Legend
I actually shined VGBC GIMR in a Falco ditto MM yesterday after he missed a tech on the top plat of YS. He floated upwards then DJed with the momentum and died off the top. The confusion on his face as his bird slammed against the screen was priceless. lol
Rocketpowerchill
Smash Ace
so all this momentum stuff, is that whats behind when you techroll super far sometimes
last week at s@x i got faired by apuff on yoshis and teched like ******** far, and it was those techs that carries you offstage
so i grabbed ledge but randall came in and took me but my getup animation had already happened so i was doing this mountain climber **** on the cloud
i had never seen such instances in melee, but i played it off
also had the same problem with double jumping out of the blast zone on peach dsmash haha damn
Bl@ckChris
Smash Hero
oh, rolling on stage onto randall just causes that animation. it's super janky. he'll also carry you off if you're not doing anything. it's really annoying when you think you're edgehogging.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6NMgUM-iorM#t=622 grand finals from a couple weeks ago. i think i'm doing some things right, but according to some people around me, i need to simplify my game further. i'll also have grand finals from yesterday some time soon, and if you guys can give me advice on where you think i need to go next, i'd really appreciate it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6NMgUM-iorM#t=622 grand finals from a couple weeks ago. i think i'm doing some things right, but according to some people around me, i need to simplify my game further. i'll also have grand finals from yesterday some time soon, and if you guys can give me advice on where you think i need to go next, i'd really appreciate it.
unknown522
Some guy
cool, I'll check that out. Possibly might test something
edit: yooooo game 1
edit 2: some things:
- try to grab more. You keep catching him in his shield, but then usually opt to do a high n-air at him. I would give examples, but it happens really frequently. You mainly go for grabs only out of a drill (really slowly though), or out of a waveshine. You are also not JCing your grabs still.
- Apply pressure when you have him trapped at the edge. He's standing in shield near the edge a lot, but then you give him a lot of space by doing those long DDs and waiting. You could just grab him, or do something else to pressure. (You did go in once or twice and got a gimp out of it).
- Apply pressure when you're directly below him. Sometimes he's on a platform and he's trapped, but then you start to DD away from him and let him get down. You could poke at him with u-airs/b-airs, or aerial (probably drill) behind his shield, or try to make him attack your shield from above, or maybe even whiff something for you to punish.
edit: yooooo game 1
edit 2: some things:
- try to grab more. You keep catching him in his shield, but then usually opt to do a high n-air at him. I would give examples, but it happens really frequently. You mainly go for grabs only out of a drill (really slowly though), or out of a waveshine. You are also not JCing your grabs still.
- Apply pressure when you have him trapped at the edge. He's standing in shield near the edge a lot, but then you give him a lot of space by doing those long DDs and waiting. You could just grab him, or do something else to pressure. (You did go in once or twice and got a gimp out of it).
- Apply pressure when you're directly below him. Sometimes he's on a platform and he's trapped, but then you start to DD away from him and let him get down. You could poke at him with u-airs/b-airs, or aerial (probably drill) behind his shield, or try to make him attack your shield from above, or maybe even whiff something for you to punish.
Bl@ckChris
Smash Hero
kevin (PP) told me the same thing about grabbing. i did it some during this grand final this week, (i played peter's marth again), but i still think i need to implement it far more. thank you for noticing, and letting me know that it is something i need to work with.
i think it's a mix of respect and fear when i opt for the indirect pressure. i've run in looking for grabs and gotten grabbed first more often than i care to admit, but i will look into selecting my opportunities to force options a little bit more.
i think the bairs thing is definitely something i've been working with in the last two weeks. it's the tool of recent past that i've been trying to learn, because bair made no sense to me, so i'm trying to find ways to use it, threaten with it, and zone with it. i'll look into also using drill and uair for that kind of pressure.
thanks for taking the time to watch the set, unknown!
i think it's a mix of respect and fear when i opt for the indirect pressure. i've run in looking for grabs and gotten grabbed first more often than i care to admit, but i will look into selecting my opportunities to force options a little bit more.
i think the bairs thing is definitely something i've been working with in the last two weeks. it's the tool of recent past that i've been trying to learn, because bair made no sense to me, so i'm trying to find ways to use it, threaten with it, and zone with it. i'll look into also using drill and uair for that kind of pressure.
thanks for taking the time to watch the set, unknown!
unknown522
Some guy
no problem.
ElloEddy
Smash Journeyman
fox mains..how did you get better at dash dancing / and safer play / decisions
yoloswag420blazeit
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2013
- Messages
- 13
I have a question. When you want to ledgehop bair as a edgeguard option, my friend taught me to use the joystick to jump and c-stick to bair. So like I move joystick away from ledge, then up, cstick bair, then joystick towards the ledge so i land on the stage after the bair. However this is a fairly tricky input and I frequently **** up. What do y'all do/what method works best?
Rocketpowerchill
Smash Ace
you can just do the bair with the control stick, if im bairing from the ledge i drop below instead of away and once i do the bair i quickly move the stick towards the stage to land on it
but alot of times the bair is all you need and they will be dead so it doesnt matter if you make on ledge or stage, you can just upb freely
but alot of times the bair is all you need and they will be dead so it doesnt matter if you make on ledge or stage, you can just upb freely
If you are expecting them to come straight at the ledge, you need to drop low enough where your bair will pass the entirety of it. Most people (including myself) drop off by pressing either back/down from the ledge, drop a little bit, jump and hit c-stick. Sometimes I use up for this jump even though I don't normally, it allows your right hand to focus on the bair timing more.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
This is a bit of a silly question, but I figure if anyone has this issue, it's Foxes. I seem to have the bad luck of tearing the rubber on my analog stick (I've done it 3 or 4 times in my Melee life, which is entirely too many, I think). At best, the thumbpad is torn and uncomfortable to play with. At worst, the entire thumbpad comes off, and then I've got to play with the hard, sharp analog stick underneath (not the best of experiences). At the last tournament that I went to, I tore it in about an hour of friendlies (before that, I don't think it'd shown any signs of weakening).
I don't consider myself overly technical, but I move kind of fast. Maybe I'm just having bad luck with crappy thumbpads, but how can I at least minimize this (alternatively, tell me how I can replace these for cheap, cause it doesn't seem like Gamecube controller thumbpads are at all easy to find).
Thanks for the help in advance.
I don't consider myself overly technical, but I move kind of fast. Maybe I'm just having bad luck with crappy thumbpads, but how can I at least minimize this (alternatively, tell me how I can replace these for cheap, cause it doesn't seem like Gamecube controller thumbpads are at all easy to find).
Thanks for the help in advance.
Machiavelli
Smash Apprentice
Bones0
Smash Legend
I use different techniques depending on how I want my bair to cover the ledge. If I want to get the bair out ASAP and just DI back onto the stage, I press away to drop, Y to jump, A to bair, then I DI back on stage. If I want to go low, I drop with down (or away if I need to delay my jump-bair for timing reasons), tap jump followed by DI on stage, and C-stick bair right after jumping. You can also shine stall for various spacing/timing mixups that they may try to do to throw you off. The last one I do is vs. recoveries like Falcon's or Marth's where I can see where they're landing. I drop with away, immediately mash the other direction to DJ high onto the stage, then I bair with the C-stick.
If you're not worried about the little bit of drift you lose at the end of your DJ by bairing with the control stick, then it really doesn't matter much what technique you use. The only real limitation is that you can't bair with the stick+A on YS because you will wall jump. That's actually why I started learning to tap jump, and I highly recommend getting used to it because it's really helpful for getting bairs out asap after shine stalls and jumps in general.
Nice name btw. XD I actually randomly said that exact phrase to someone at work today so I did a double take when I saw your name. Would have thought you were the person I was talking to until I realized your join date. lol
I used to do it with my super old controllers back before I found SmashBoards. It doesn't have much to do with tech skill and more to do with how you hold the stick. I used to break them because I'd play Mario and try to do super high down-Bs, and I would hold the top of the stick and push it towards the controller. Keep your thumb centered on the stick so if you are pushing you will at least be pushing the part that is supported.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
I'm not sure why that didn't occur to me, but it makes a ton of sense. Thank you.
ElloEddy
Smash Journeyman
sup im $led i got some , for yah
good movement , now use it to attack more..., look at your opponent more and watch what they do , youd get him to whiff so many attacks , and just run around and not punish lol , be more aggressive and keep your spacing
basically what i saw during these matches is you'd move around better and have better chances to beat him up but didn't do it. stop dashing around and not capitalizing ( you have a good DD , now make it a weapon of mass destruction) , look at you opponent and **** em up for mistakes and bad spacing , and stop giving up space keep the middle and make them fight there way in ..
btw when he was sheik every ed-guard should have been free since he had a name on
( but examples of you not doing anything when you could beat him up and good thing that you didnt fully capitalize on , i mean there is alot but these are moments should have been big opportunities for you , just look through your matches and see when you could hit you opponent and didn't or when you gave away stage position or didn't capitalize on things. )
vs shiek
http://youtu.be/EaecVP6IT1o?t=37s
he just jabbing and **** lol , he jabbed at you like 5-6 times...lol you know your FOX!!! nair through that , and CC that crap sheik cant really touch you w soft stuff till you have 40% , then he dash attacked you and you RAN WAY lol punish you CC it a lil bit to grab him up throw up air , or upsmash or uptilt ( works on shiek at low % before like 20 ish id say
http://youtu.be/EaecVP6IT1o?t=58s
good wake up shine...then when he whiffed you punished w a drill---->shine --> grab----> up throw --> then nothing ??? you messed upped a niar lol its cool it happens but make sure you get those punishes a uair / bair is better though , focus of getting more DMG and Followups after confirmed hits...
also after drill--->shine you could just upsmash and take optimal chunk of dmg then wait for scared sheik to come down with a fair or a dumb attack or react to tech ( if the is platforms ) or them DIing away .
http://youtu.be/EaecVP6IT1o?t=3m4s
very good sequence good **** , first time that match i saw you capitalize on your good movement , and get a grab ----> uair -----> bair --> nair excellent shine and bair , and almost secure a kill but you messed upped the second JC grab ( i saw you mess a couple does up , practice till your hand bleeed lol ) , watch that sequence over and see where you messed upped and dont next time ...
http://youtu.be/EaecVP6IT1o?t=3m20s
look he jabbed at you for the 1000000th time look what you did , punished that dumb **** lol your fox not falcon who cant do nothing about it ....( GREAT UPSMASH outta shield its a forgotten option , w newer foxes )
http://youtu.be/EaecVP6IT1o?t=3m56s
more of you good DD , and actually punishing his whiff or bad decision,... , then great edge-guard ..keep it up :]
vs fox
http://youtu.be/EaecVP6IT1o?t=5m11s
get this ***** lol , started off strong but if your gonna chain grab in tourney dont drop it , just go for the upsmash ...which leads to huge DMG and death in most fox ditto cases lol ...just jman it
http://youtu.be/EaecVP6IT1o?t=5m38s
and
http://youtu.be/EaecVP6IT1o?t=5m45s
............ great DD's again grab and no punish lol .....you gotta beat him up
http://youtu.be/EaecVP6IT1o?t=5m51s
look how good you movement is...and when you do go capitalize ...he dies do it every grab
and the whole fox ditto goes on , with you out moving and getting more chances then him , but he capitalized more ...i honestly feel like once you start looking at your opponent more and watching what they do / punish and capitalize more ..you will get so much better ,
just look through and watch carefully and ask yourself , WHY..... why i got hit , why didn't i Win , why did he win and look for moments where you should have had it and make sure to correct it in friendlies / casuals / training sesh w friends.
keep up the good movement though i like your fox and nice tag machiavelle just be more aggressive , and hopefully my advice was helpful :-D
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
you don't understand how the different levels of dash & run momentum affect your jump and you do really bad aerials because of it that get you ***** and your DD looks wonky because you don't have that consideration built into it
either that or you know about it and you're just really bad at it
you pick weird combo starters when you have freebies sometimes but i'm boring.
i think you choose to u-smash when the opponent is going to jump out of shield a lot and catch that. which is great but i question if it's routinely better than grab.
i don't think more simplicity is the answer. i think you've got a good grasp of how to juggle efficiency from a risk-reward and chance-to-screw-up standpoint.
keep working though i like how it is coming along
PGH Carroll
Smash Master
Let's get something straight right now.
Mach is cool. Always knew.
Mach is cool. Always knew.
Machiavelli
Smash Apprentice
Might just be too cool. Only flaw
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
Hello, Mach.
Bl@ckChris
Smash Hero
thanks a ton KK. grand finals from this week is up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssMFaFM9ASc&feature=c4-overview&list=UU8aZvSO220xJO-Is_wQIzqg
(vs marth again)
as is the set i really should've/could've lost that tournament, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hU4E-aoU_So&list=UU8aZvSO220xJO-Is_wQIzqg vs falcon
i'll be looking to train more by myself to change those bad aerials. i think that's why i ended up needing a lot of those goofy looking jabs, because where i landed wasn't even close to how deep i wished i was on shield.
Bones0
Smash Legend
- Shining after nairs that hit Marth into the are really risky. Better players will grab you after the shine hits them. You also get a better punish by following up with grab or utilt or crossup into DD until they do something dumb. Drill instead of nair if you're looking for waveshine punishes.
- You don't grab enough.
- You approach with jumps too much (running shine, brah).
5:20 - Know your optimal punishes in every situation. On the top plat of BF (which is roughly center stage as well) usmash is obviously going to KO sooner.
- Don't DA grounded opponents at CCable %s.
- You're letting him recover to the ledge for free. At least grab it and LH bair. From there you can start learning the different mixups they'll do to get you off the ledge early.
- Practice single hit uairs. You can do this vs. comps so no johns.
- You'll improve faster if you don't just play BF every game. If you do significantly better or worse on other stages it can help you target what's wrong in your game more quickly.
Bl@ckChris
Smash Hero
he kept taking me back to BF lol. i had no control over that, except after game 1, which...just felt like an okay decision.
why is drillshine any safer than late nair shine?
why single hit uairs? just as a combo tool?
why is drillshine any safer than late nair shine?
why single hit uairs? just as a combo tool?
Engo
Smash Ace
Nair shine pushes marth back enough that he can grab you out of your follow up. This is a lot less likely with drill shine.
Single hit uairs means the marth can't SDI the upthrow up air.
Single hit uairs means the marth can't SDI the upthrow up air.
Bl@ckChris
Smash Hero
oh, single hit as in the second hit okay. i was like "who wants the first hit...?" i've done some really funny things with first hit uair regrab/usmash, but it's not something i'd practice lol.
thanks for those answers, engo.
thanks for those answers, engo.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I sometimes just don't WD towards Marth and let him reflex-grab after the nair-shine and then punish the grab lag.
But I won't deny that it's inefficient relative to other options. Though frankly if Marth isn't crouching your nairs you can also just lolcombo him off them with more nair, u-smash, u-tilt, etc.
But I won't deny that it's inefficient relative to other options. Though frankly if Marth isn't crouching your nairs you can also just lolcombo him off them with more nair, u-smash, u-tilt, etc.
Engo
Smash Ace
Yeah at the very least if you're careful and don't wd towards him, you're putting him at the corner(in most stages). So it's not bad but of course a drillshine would lead into grab into upairs etc. which is more guaranteed damage. I'm just personally not confident in my nairs not getting cc'd unless it's mid- high percent and prefer to drill or run up shield if they're in my face with aerials.
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
All4G0dsGl0ry
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2013
- Messages
- 46
A couple questions: I'm learning to waveshine right now. I find that I can waveshine peaches across fd in practice but have a hard time getting even 1 or 2 in an actual match. Should I practice them against some higher level computers to emulate the feeling? how did you guys get consistent at waveshine. Also, as a drill, I'm practicing drill waveshine to another short hop drill waveshine. Does anyone ever use that sequence in an actual match? Does it have viability? Thanks
All4G0dsGl0ry
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2013
- Messages
- 46
I don't have a human to practice with all the time. You don't think it's beneficial to even just try drill waveshine into a moving target? Seems better than a stationary target
the wizard howl
Smash Apprentice
it's not really beneficial because people don't move/react any more like a moving cpus than a still one.
When practicing with cpus you focus on keeping your techskill as solid as possible, not application. Beyond getting good muscle-memory it can actually be harmful. That's why doing reps by yourself is better than improvising.
Part of it comes down to if you're practicing to play with people then practice in a way that is good for playing with people or not at all. If you don't have people to play with then you're in a little bit of a no-win situation because it's actually detrimental to put a lot of hours in building bad habits with cpus. After having solid tech the better way to improve would be to watch vids with a notebook/devote that time to finding easier ways to actually play the game the way you mean to play it (with people).
When practicing with cpus you focus on keeping your techskill as solid as possible, not application. Beyond getting good muscle-memory it can actually be harmful. That's why doing reps by yourself is better than improvising.
Part of it comes down to if you're practicing to play with people then practice in a way that is good for playing with people or not at all. If you don't have people to play with then you're in a little bit of a no-win situation because it's actually detrimental to put a lot of hours in building bad habits with cpus. After having solid tech the better way to improve would be to watch vids with a notebook/devote that time to finding easier ways to actually play the game the way you mean to play it (with people).
All4G0dsGl0ry
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2013
- Messages
- 46
I do practice on stationary CPUs (human with controller plugged in) to get tech skill down. But like I said, when I switch to something more competent (such as a computer that tries to attack me) than a human "CPU", I have a hard time executing. If it's really that detrimental to practice ONLY drill waveshines on CPUs (it's not like I'm charging f smashes) then i'll stop
Bones0
Smash Legend
Higher comp levels won't help. Just grind it out on level 1s. The reason you're messing up vs. humans is because it isn't second nature yet. And yes, you can combo drill shine into another drill shine. You can test combos with the Consecutive Hits meter in Training Mode (no C-stick though).