Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Bl@ckChris]

got properly bopped by PP in finals today. wish i had the vids for it. oh well. me and him will be streaming eventually, so you'll have plenty of footage of me getting thrashed by his character of the day, whatever it may be.

we fox ditto'd in WF and he went marth in grands. i felt like there were moments where i looked like i had an idea of what i was doing vs his marth, but his fox roflstomped me lol.

 

[BlackSoL]

What are the most important things for a newb fox to learn? (I want to get good with him)

 

[Ziodyne]

tech skill and mind games lelele

in all seriousness, what do you know about fox so far? dunno if people can give you super useful info unless they know how good you are

 

[BlackSoL]

I've begun to learn waveshining and things you can do out of it, i know things like spacing/zoning. i can also drillshine but I'm working at it to use it more consistently.

 

[Bones0]

1. Tech skill
2. DDing
3. Grabbing (see step 2)
4. Just branch off onto whatever you want. There's too much to learn to really list things past the raw basics. Only thing I would really suggest is to focus on macro and micro positioning no matter what techniques, tactics, styles, or strategies you may be learning about. If you're learning about getting grabs, keep in mind how you're positioning yourself throughout those experiments and practices. Same goes for performing aerials, shielding, dodging with movement, recovering, edgeguarding, DI, etc.

 

[BlackSoL]

Oh thank you for the tips. Ill keep that in mind thanks Bones0.

 

[Engo]

Whatever you do, don't get caught up learning multishines, shdl, shine bair and other crap like that when you're starting out.

Dash dance, shffing, waveshine, drill shine into grab/up smash, upthrow up air/bair, jc grabs. And learn the combo set ups off a grab. Can't think of anything else that's crucial that a new fox should bother with 'till later.

Most importantly apply this stuff in matches. Don't just grind tech skill forever and play once a month against an actual person.

 

[BTmoney]

Anyone have any words on how to attack a DD'ing Marth?

I've seen talk of "overshooting" nairs and etc. but I just want to bring some attention to this since I'm not the best vs. Marth. Does dash attack fit anywhere into this? (I remember someone calling Peach's dash attack an "anti" or counter DD move/tool, so maybe you can use it in a similar fashion with Fox. But instead of having Peach's ridiculously sized and prioritized DA you have speed, since you're Fox).


Fighting Marth in neutral is really annoying, probably more annoying than fighting any other character to me.

 

[Ziodyne]

Dash attack works. Against DD's, I sometimes also like to do some more ballzy stuff like deep run-in dtilts or grabs.

I dunno how good the Marth you're playing against is though.

 

[Bones0]

Only DA in neutral if you're trying to get shield and CC punished.

 

[Ziodyne]

shield grabbed, certainly could happen

CC from a DD though? Can Marth fox trot and still get the crouch out before Fox can land a DA?

 

[PGH Carroll]

I dash attack DD camping foxes like its my job. DD Camping Marths on the other hand I laser and make them come to me most of the time.

 

[Deleted member]

Anyone have any words on how to attack a DD'ing Marth?

I've seen talk of "overshooting" nairs and etc. but I just want to bring some attention to this since I'm not the best vs. Marth. Does dash attack fit anywhere into this? (I remember someone calling Peach's dash attack an "anti" or counter DD move/tool, so maybe you can use it in a similar fashion with Fox. But instead of having Peach's ridiculously sized and prioritized DA you have speed, since you're Fox).


Fighting Marth in neutral is really annoying, probably more annoying than fighting any other character to me.

you want to play the footsie game with him and base your reactions around marth's dash direction. this barely works because fox's dash is faster. the idea is that when marth is dashing towards you, you dash away to avoid grabs (or dash at him to surprise him or keep him legit) and when he dashes away, you dash after him because marth doesn't have anything threatening out of dash away besides pivot grabs.

you generally want to engage marth with shine once you finally catch him because marth's OOS options are **** against fox. from here you can either combo into grab > upthrow > upair or if he blocks it, go for basic pressure to once again work against marth's OOS options. generally though you want the grab. if he sidesteps you for some reason, just shine again and then grab him.

like most matches, you want to focus on upthrow > goodstuff conversions but you particularly want upair against marth because his combo weight is **** and because bair is generally bad unless it sets you up for an edge guard. you can upair marth all day or dashdance camp his landing lag when he comes down for...another upthrow upair. upthrow bair is unusually bad here because bairs essentially forego a better punishment and allow marth to reset to neutral horizontally, and marth isn't a character you want resetting to neutral if you can help it. if you're worried about SDI on the upair, see which way the opponent is SDIing out first and then aim on the side they usually DI towards to negate it. most players won't do this consistently, and even fewer will re-adapt their DI patterns when you can follow it better. often the player just becomes frustrated that the technique isn't working, which makes your life much easier.

i hate this MU too and always have.

Only DA in neutral if you're trying to get shield and CC punished.

pretty much lol

 

[BTmoney]

Stuff

While I was typing up my Q I actually contemplated something similar to what you said about the dashing towards/away tug-of-war type deal. But I couldn't think of a good way to ask what I was thinking without over simplifying it so it's pretty cool that you answered my question without me asking it.

I'll think about that. And you're saying a Mow-Fox is mostly looking to convert from neutral with shine (and grabs ofcourse when they are available)? Where does nair spam play into this? Serious question.

edit:

On a side note (this is actually a noobish question) don't you literally have to be crouching to CC (since you're not crouching when you're dash dancing) or does holding down before you get hit give you some sort of ASDI nonsense?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Nair is mostly just a decent move to lead in with against a shield if you do it right. Beyond that, its hitbox is nothing special but it comes out fast enough to stuff moves if he's got Marth in a weak position (and where he can't crouch grab) then you can hit him with it. Sometimes you'll get something good off it.

Otherwise nair is kind of meh against Marth. The penalty for being grabbed by him or hit into a juggle combined with commitment nair demands of you (you're basically committed until you land) just makes it a risky play. Grab and shine at the very least aren't usually punishable on hit. And they convert into plays where you can do damage more easily.

I think dair is generally better in this matchup because it's crouch-proofed, has simpler conditions for combo conversion, and because its flimsiness vs airborne foes is less pronounced here since Marth spends most of this one working the dash game. The hitbox is also lower to the ground so it seems better at hitting dashes and wavedashes that Marth might do trying to slip under & through you when he feels cornered or pressured. Dair doesn't work if he starts jumping obviously but if you can make Marth jump a lot then you should be screaming for joy and a whole lot of otherwise janky / garbage things become viable.

Knowing how to gimp Marth's recovery makes this one a lot easier. Knowing how to play after f-throwing or b-throwing him offstage opens up lots of room for easy damage. And makes it easier to land big u-throw combos.

 

[BTmoney]

Awesome, thank you both

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

i notice sometimes people who sdi the hit insufficiently and the hit still connects, so is that why its best to quarter circle as a floaty against uair?

what actually goes on up there in that conversion when i see marth looking like hes out of the 2nd hit but then he still gets hit by it

does that mean you always have to input multiple sdi perfectly if you want to live or is one enough if the fox upairs you in the right spot

 

[Jim Morrison]

What way do I SDI and what do I input ASAP to escape the pillar-dair combo from 0 to 50 from Falco?
Like, after the D-air, where do I SDI and then what.

 

[FrootLoop]

You want to SDI the Dair so the shine whiffs. This isn't always out-SDI or always in-SDI, it depends on which side you're closer to escaping. Measure where the shine will be and where you will be and SDI so you'll be farther from the shine.

I'm not sure how reliable the escape is so normally I will just try to DI up the side platform and try to force an awkward conversion across the top platform as you get shine carried. Every little bit can matter though so it's worth testing out.

 

[BTmoney]

Dair doesn't work if he starts jumping obviously but if you can make Marth jump a lot then you should be screaming for joy and a whole lot of otherwise janky / garbage things become viable.

I'm actually glad you mentioned that because I was about to ask Mow and or you if the situation being described was Fox vs the quintessential, grounded Marth or Fox vs the average Marth player. A lot of Marths do like orientating their game around swinging.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I tend to put notes like that in even if I think the poster I'm responding to understands the exceptional cases and stuff just so I don't confuse players less informed. If the question is general enough to warrant it.

 

[omgwtfToph]

I need to ask a frame question.

How many frames of invincibility do you get when grabbing the ledge?

 

[Bones0]

I need to ask a frame question.

How many frames of invincibility do you get when grabbing the ledge?

Pretty sure that's answered in Strong Bad's frame data thread.

 

[EWC]

I need to ask a frame question.

How many frames of invincibility do you get when grabbing the ledge?

You get 37 frames of invincibility when you grab the ledge. You also have to wait 7 frames before you can let go, so you get at most 30 frames where you can actually do stuff invincibly.

 

[xDD-Master]

You get 37 frames of invincibility when you grab the ledge. You also have to wait 7 frames before you can let go, so you get at most 30 frames where you can actually do stuff invincibly.

Is this same for every character?

 

[Bones0]

Is this same for every character?

It's only different for Link. I'm pretty sure he only has to wait 3 frames before letting go as opposed to 7, but he also gets 4 less frames of invincibility so he still gets 30 frames of actionable invinc. Hopefully someone can confirm, but you probably don't care since you don't play Link. lol

 

[Kadano]

You get 37 frames of invincibility when you grab the ledge. You also have to wait 7 frames before you can let go, so you get at most 30 frames where you can actually do stuff invincibly.

29, actually. CliffCatch is 7 frames, but only after the first frame of CliffWait it is possible to let go of the ledge and to climb up. Roll, attack and jump are available from CliffCatch 7 on, though, for reasons unknown.

Is this same for every character?

Every character has 29 frames of free invincibility, but Link’s CliffCatch animation lasts only 3 frames instead of 7.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

how do i powershield consistently cuz falcos too hard when im not chillin on plats
i have so limited ways of actually getting in if a falco lasers in neutral so i honeslty just wanna know the frames and stuff for running powershield since i see mango make use of this against pp

 

[Deleted member]

I'm actually glad you mentioned that because I was about to ask Mow and or you if the situation being described was Fox vs the quintessential, grounded Marth or Fox vs the average Marth player. A lot of Marths do like orientating their game around swinging.

i think i like dair more than most players and i still wouldn't recommend it against marth, or any aerial conversion for that matter. grounded marth i should say. against bad marths you can just let them swing and make videos out of them. grounded marth is always much scarier than aerial marth from neutral because he can instantly put you into an awful position on conversion via upthrow.

marth's solo practice is very hard because practicing DD grabs or dtilt iasa placements and frame traps are all best learned against human opponents.

obv aerial marth is an impossible MU for most characters if you're already in a bad position lol

in general though david is correct, nair is already debatable in utility depending strongly on the MU and even thats with respect to crouch options if for some reason you don't have to worry about position. i think a lot of foxes would do better if they nairplaned less, but hey i feel the same way about marth swinging from neutral. i heard waiting and aiming your moves are really good in this game.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

how do i dashdance grab like a pro cuz i feel like who wud just go whiff an arial for no reason while a fox dashdances in place and then gets a free grab

not sure if official dd grabs are even seen among players that arent top tier cuz their spacing is the best

 

[Apasher]

What makes a good Fox player? What separates a good Fox player from a generic mid-level Fox player?

 

[omgwtfToph]

I think presence of mind in the neutral game (knowing when to do what, and being able to do it*) and the ability to maximize punishment (Fox's punish game probably requires the most flexibility of all the top tiers, as most of his stuff is less guaranteed) consistently are two of the defining marks of a great Fox.

*For example, being able to land clutch DD grabs/punishes against moves that have tight punish windows is a pretty big aspect.

 

[Deleted member]

I think presence of mind in the neutral game (knowing when to do what, and being able to do it*) and the ability to maximize punishment (Fox's punish game probably requires the most flexibility of all the top tiers, as most of his stuff is less guaranteed) consistently are two of the defining marks of a great Fox.

*For example, being able to land clutch DD grabs/punishes against moves that have tight punish windows is a pretty big aspect.

^ best post from the last month right here.

the #1 thing most intermediate players need to work on is improving punishment. for fox almost exclusively, punishment often goes hand in hand with conversions from a position of advantage over and over again rather than doing legitimate combos. this post hits both.

10/10

rep +++

 

[shadrach kabango]

I think presence of mind in the neutral game (knowing when to do what, and being able to do it*) and the ability to maximize punishment (Fox's punish game probably requires the most flexibility of all the top tiers, as most of his stuff is less guaranteed) consistently are two of the defining marks of a great Fox.

*For example, being able to land clutch DD grabs/punishes against moves that have tight punish windows is a pretty big aspect.

well-said

 

[BlackSoL]

So I got into competitive a long while ago in brawl, recently switched to melee because I like it more. I've picked up fox and I have some decent tech skill but I can't play other people because of where I live etc. well, not other competitive players anyway, however I will be able to I'm a few years. I have a few questions...

Should I just keep grinding tech skill until I can play other people?

Is fox really the character I should be using? As a new player anyway

Thanks

 

[Deleted member]

probably not. solo practice builds bad habits easily and this is especially true for fox. you'd be better off starting on falco and getting the hand memory down before moving to a character that has a massive technical horizon but doesn't necessarily need it. the best fox practice is live talented players that force you to think every match. the opposite will ruin you before you even start.

 

[BlackSoL]

Even if I just practise tech skill? Like not against cpu's or anything just raw tech like waveshining and stuff... Although I get your point about building bad habits, I had a tough time getting out of mine in brawl

 

[Apasher]

So I got into competitive a long while ago in brawl, recently switched to melee because I like it more. I've picked up fox and I have some decent tech skill but I can't play other people because of where I live etc. well, not other competitive players anyway, however I will be able to I'm a few years. I have a few questions...

Should I just keep grinding tech skill until I can play other people?

Is fox really the character I should be using? As a new player anyway

Thanks

There is a reason why Mango says "learn the game with a different character" to new spacie mains. Picking up Fox as a first main is like asking a baby what profession they want to get into; you are given so many options even though you don't even know how to use them.

I would recommend using a character that helps you learn spacing, reads, and other basic fundamentals. Unless you're willing to take the challenge and don't want to use anyone else, then go ahead and stick with Fox.

 

[BlackSoL]

ok thanks Apasher, i'll pick up a different character until i learn more about the game.

 

[Bones0]

I mean, I don't think starting out with Fox is THAT ridiculous. You just have to focus on DD grabs and uairs and bairs. Ignore all the complex shield pressure stuff, especially if your tech skill isn't too great. If you're not playing humans, you can just grind out tech skill and practice set combos like uthrow uair or waveshine -> usmash/drill/grab/etc.