Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Bones0]

Anyone a guru on the Fox v Sheik matchup? Vanz and Goose wrecked me in pools with Sheik last weekend. I know that it's best to take advantage of her bad recovery and get her off the edge, but what would be the best way to approach Sheik? Seems like her needles outcamp me and I get ****ed up if I go straight out aggressive on her.

Search this thread for KirbyKaze's posts containing the word "Sheik".

 

[PolishSmash]

Hey everyone. I haven't played smash in a while and I want to get better again. I picked up Fox. Usually when I play friendlies I get beat bad because I don't care about winning I just try to practice stuff under pressure and it doesn't bother me that I lose. So I practice wavedashing OOS, Shine OSS, I try to practice reading my opponent, wavelanding on the platforms, movement (dashdancing). I know the basic tech skill like shuffles and wavedashing. What can I practice in game when playing? What should I learn first using Fox? I also need help with punishes. Sometimes when I know what my opponent does OOS I don't know how to punish accordingly. If they jump OOS, roll, attack OOS, Grab, what should I do? Thanks guys. I just need the basic stuff right now.

 

[unknown522]

every week man

 

[KirbyKaze]

What are Fox's grab combos on Ganon?

Fox can't true combo Ganon if he DIs the throw behind iirc

But basically

U-throw > Observe > Hit him

 

[fennel69]

Any tips for Marth match-up? Thanks

 

[unknown522]

don't get hit.

no joke

 

[BTmoney]

I was really bad at the MU until I stopped trying to run him over with nairs. I think I got 100x better at it recently.

My preferred tools in order are DD->uthrow, DD/spaced dash/run into shine-> chase him grab, and drill->shine->grab if he does something really laggy.
Basically just DD better and harder. Try to bait more out of him. If he's not taking the bait try to manipulate the stage in your favor. If you get his back to the edge all your moves are faster and safer so the Marth is pretty much going to do something. DD at him, WD in place, apply not stupid shield pressure, try to shield stab him etc. If not you can push him to the ledge and Marth is buns on the ledge.

Shine grab is also pretty awesome/stupid. And don't ever get shield grabbed, ever. When comboing get more utilts and uairs. Get Marth in the air in general. It's good for you.

Maybe you can even try over shooting your nairs during his initial dash forward (while he's dashing forward the best and fastest thing he can do is grab and the next best thing he can do is dash back and DD grab your nair.) The key to this though is waiting as long as possible and getting as close as possible without getting grabbed. Nair would/should stuff dash attack and jump->aerial since it comes out way faster. Might not be worth the effort. I'm not sure how good Foxes go about nair'ing Marth. That's just something I thought of.


Now someone tell me how to fight Falcon. I'm thinking in general I need to be more aggressive and stuff him premptively because it's pretty damn hard DD grabbing Falcon's stuff as he flies across the screen. Maybe that's just me. Idk. I pretty much DD grab vs everyone and everything maybe that's not how I should approach this MU.

 

[fennel69]

Thanks I will apply all that stuff !

Vs Falcon I just play as technical as possible and most of time it works. ADA is your friend, Waveshine/drillshine him if he gets hit. When he's in shield you can shinegrab or drillgrab him. Wait just a mistake, apply the stuff and freeguard him when he's out.

EDIT : And ANA is awesome.

 

[Charlesz]

Invincible ledge dash:
Can someone who knows what they are talking about explain the timing of how to do this? Every time I've done a wavedash from the ledge with fox I'm usually vulnerable. A prime example of someone really taking advantage of this strategy is Leffen.

 

[Pengie]

Invincible ledge dash:
Can someone who knows what they are talking about explain the timing of how to do this? Every time I've done a wavedash from the ledge with fox I'm usually vulnerable. A prime example of someone really taking advantage of this strategy is Leffen.

The key to doing them invincibly is letting go of the ledge as as fast as possible. IMO practice ledge hopping ASAP first then move on to the wavedash part.

 

[Glitchy]

Hi!
It would be nice if you guys could give me some general advice on the Peach and Falcon matchups since I struggle a lot against them.

 

[Oni Inferno]

Any particular way you practice waveshining? i just do it in training mode on link, usually on FD because its easier. Any other ways that might be better?

 

[fennel69]

Try on Falcon, it's harder. And try in training mode 2x speed.

 

[FourStar]

don't get hit.

no joke

straight up Isai **** right there lol

 

[knightpraetor]

does fox have a guaranteed edgeguard on link if he misses the sweetspot on the grapple? or can link fastfall quickly after starting the pull up on the chain to juke out the fox legitimately? just wondering one of my friends was having trouble consistently getting the shine spike

 

[unknown522]

your friend is just missing.

You can also do other things besides shine

 

[All4G0dsGl0ry]

Wondering if anyone has/had more trouble shining after bair than the other arials. I seem to have a harder time with bair, but maybe it's just a mental block

 

[Omni]

It's not a mindblock. Just have to realize it's not always muscle memory depending on if you hit with the early or late part of your b-air. My guess is you're failing to FF properly 100% of the time and thus missing your l-cancel timing. Fast fall'ing before or after the b-air hits changes the timing considerably.

My Question: Sometimes I have a hard time doing a running shine aka just shining out of the run (not the initial dash). Is there something specific I'm missing about the run shine that's not letting me hit it 100% of the time?

 

[Charlesz]

Need a second opinion. I ledge hop very quickly but I still can't get that invincibility.

 

[All4G0dsGl0ry]

This is just practice on nothing. So I'll just be jumping around fd and it feels harder sometimes. So I guess a follow up question would be when you fast fall, do you reset the control stick before you shine or just continue holding down?

Edit: and just so ya'll know I'm not ignoring you, I have no advice for the ledge and I have the same problem sometimes with the running shine. Also wondering when runnin shine is better than nair

 

[4 Aces]

This is just practice on nothing. So I'll just be jumping around fd and it feels harder sometimes. So I guess a follow up question would be when you fast fall, do you reset the control stick before you shine or just continue holding down?

Edit: and just so ya'll know I'm not ignoring you, I have no advice for the ledge and I have the same problem sometimes with the running shine. Also wondering when runnin shine is better than nair

Keep in mind that bair has more lag than the other aerials (well, most others, I think. Don't know its frames vs. uair). I tend to have the same problem too. Idk, you might be timing it wrong. Maybe a little too early. Try to slow it down, then go faster.

I personally reset the stick. I think. I'm not entirely sure; I don't really think about it anymore.

Need a second opinion. I ledge hop very quickly but I still can't get that invincibility.

K, so you can ledge hop fast. What about inputing the air dodge? If you do it slow, then you might not get it. Meh, my ledge dash is kinda bad. I either do the crappy jump from ledge, or I do it too slow, and I end up air dodging/triangle jumping onto the stage.

Not really sure how to remedy this. Do both insanely fast and on succession I guess...that and make sure you get the max distance.

It's not a mindblock. Just have to realize it's not always muscle memory depending on if you hit with the early or late part of your b-air. My guess is you're failing to FF properly 100% of the time and thus missing your l-cancel timing. Fast fall'ing before or after the b-air hits changes the timing considerably.

My Question: Sometimes I have a hard time doing a running shine aka just shining out of the run (not the initial dash). Is there something specific I'm missing about the run shine that's not letting me hit it 100% of the time?

Idk for sure, but maybe you're not getting the crouch cancel timing down correctly. Maybe you're hitting b too early?

 

[Omni]

That's probably the case. Probably something similar to the concept of me doing flying full hop u-airs when I'm going for running up-smashes. Most likely messing up the timing. Okay, that makes sense.

 

[Pengie]

Need a second opinion. I ledge hop very quickly but I still can't get that invincibility.

I mean, there's only three parts to it; you drop from the ledge, you DJ, then you airdodge. You're going to be airdodging at roughly the same time anyway so that you can get the most distance from the ledgedash, so all that's left to adjust the timing on is how quickly you let go of the ledge and DJ. The only things that you could be messing up are not jumping immediately after you drop from the ledge, or not dropping from the ledge fast enough in the first place. Just to clarify what I meant by not ledge hopping fast enough.

 

[.K1]

Hey guys. Ive been out of smash for a long time. Last time I was actually serious about playing was in 07, but I played competitively 03ish-07. Anyways, Ive seen that fox has changed a lot since then....a much higher executional "standard". Im curious if yall might be able to give me a crash course on what I need to know to catch up to 2013 standards? Ive always been a marth main, but ive always had a pocket Fox, and im looking to work on both of them. I know getting my execution back with Fox will carry over to any other character, so I figure I should start with him. Help an oldschooler get back into shape?

Also, I dont know if Mango's fox is considered "standard", but it looks like his execution is through the god damn roof. I have played marvel 2, KoF, various SF games, etc all competitively, and the **** that it takes to pull of what Mango does is far beyond any of those games (including sent reflys in mvc2).

tl;dr, what "drills" can I run that will work on actual practical stuff.

 

[Bones0]

It's not a mindblock. Just have to realize it's not always muscle memory depending on if you hit with the early or late part of your b-air. My guess is you're failing to FF properly 100% of the time and thus missing your l-cancel timing. Fast fall'ing before or after the b-air hits changes the timing considerably.

My Question: Sometimes I have a hard time doing a running shine aka just shining out of the run (not the initial dash). Is there something specific I'm missing about the run shine that's not letting me hit it 100% of the time?

When you hold down, it doesn't run cancel immediately. Idk the details, but there's a certain amount of lag before your character has crouched enough that they can attack. I would just practice in slow motion in Training Mode and do the shine later and later after beginning the crouch to see what part of the animation you can start attacking at.

Hey guys. Ive been out of smash for a long time. Last time I was actually serious about playing was in 07, but I played competitively 03ish-07. Anyways, Ive seen that fox has changed a lot since then....a much higher executional "standard". Im curious if yall might be able to give me a crash course on what I need to know to catch up to 2013 standards? Ive always been a marth main, but ive always had a pocket Fox, and im looking to work on both of them. I know getting my execution back with Fox will carry over to any other character, so I figure I should start with him. Help an oldschooler get back into shape?

Also, I dont know if Mango's fox is considered "standard", but it looks like his execution is through the god damn roof. I have played marvel 2, KoF, various SF games, etc all competitively, and the **** that it takes to pull of what Mango does is far beyond any of those games (including sent reflys in mvc2).

tl;dr, what "drills" can I run that will work on actual practical stuff.

Watch Silent Wolf videos and replicate them.

 

[.K1]

...Ill do that a certain degree. I dont like trying to replicate someone else exactly, but I will try to learn from his videos.

 

[Bones0]

...Ill do that a certain degree. I dont like trying to replicate someone else exactly, but I will try to learn from his videos.

Well you said execution...

 

[.K1]

Fair enough, I guess there was just a little misunderstanding on my part by your response

 

[BTmoney]

Would anyone recommend I make a short in-depth video on how to (more easily) SHDL? Anyone think it'd be helpful for newer players?
This games been out so long and the topic has been beaten to death but I feel like I should spread the wealth (in my experience I've never found anyone's advice helpful for this, so I'm probably not the only one). I changed my controller etiquette a couple days ago and I found it pretty simple and easy after like 45 seconds, coming from someone who used to practice it a lot and could never do it.

I just feel like I'm not the only one who could benefit from this since I know some mid/good level players who still struggle with it. I feel like the way I do it is pretty easy (if you jump with Y, it's a pushing rather than sliding motion) and doesn't require fast fingers or that much delicacy (like using the control stick to SH).

If I'm just a nub tho that's cool too

 

[4 Aces]

Would anyone recommend I make a short in-depth video on how to (more easily) SHDL? Anyone think it'd be helpful for newer players?
This games been out so long and the topic has been beaten to death but I feel like I should spread the wealth (in my experience I've never found anyone's advice helpful for this, so I'm probably not the only one). I changed my controller etiquette a couple days ago and I found it pretty simple and easy after like 45 seconds, coming from someone who used to practice it a lot and could never do it.

I just feel like I'm not the only one who could benefit from this since I know some mid/good level players who still struggle with it. I feel like the way I do it is pretty easy (if you jump with Y, it's a pushing rather than sliding motion) and doesn't require fast fingers or that much delicacy (like using the control stick to SH).

If I'm just a nub tho that's cool too

Depends on how in-depth it is, when you say in-depth. If it's like that laser 101 video from a couple years back (purple fox?), but only on on SHDL, then no, not worth, cuz I think that laser guide is quite good as it is.

But if you're talking about super super detailed SHDL, frame data, 15 different hand positions and "styles" on how to do (and you ACTUALLY explain it really well), etc. etc. blah blah, then sure. Go for it.

 

[Dark Hart]

Hey guys, finally got some videos after a couple of years haha

Here's a recent loser-semi's set vs a good local Marth, gonna take it one video at a time

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXfeJzVF3V8

anything would be helpful

 

[Omni]

Would anyone recommend I make a short in-depth video on how to (more easily) SHDL? Anyone think it'd be helpful for newer players?

I flick up on the control stick. Easy as pie.

Hey guys, finally got some videos after a couple of years haha

Here's a recent loser-semi's set vs a good local Marth, gonna take it one video at a time

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXfeJzVF3V8

anything would be helpful

Not bad. I'd say that you are very comfortable on platforms, but you have very telegraphed attacks from the platform. Lots of waveland aerials or running off the platform into aerials that the Marth was picking up on.

 

[All4G0dsGl0ry]

Was wondering which scenarios would call for shield pressure and which would be better just to grab it

 

[Omni]

o_O So many general questions in this thread.

Shield pressure vs. grab is based on match-ups, conditioning, and where the scenario is being taken place in respect to stage positioning. There's no real answer to your question greater than "it depends".

 

[Deleted member]

i would err on the side of grabbing. you'll rarely be disappointed by upthrow unless you punt it really hard. all of the characters that you'd want to pressure have poor OOS options (falcon, ICs, etc) against low aerial > shine set-ups will generally have ideal throw weights for upthrow. and frankly, grabbing is easier in terms of execution than a good pressure game is, and that marginal loss of a few poor conversions can cost you a few games in the bracket...don't make the character harder than he needs to be.

 

[BTmoney]

I know what you're talking about, but I could make a "better" video than that.

I flick up on the control stick. Easy as pie.

I could never do that lol

&

Shield pressure has some decent application near the ledge where a few hits will push them off stage/to the ledge, high percent when they are beginning to lose some composure (subjective), and situations where you can shield stab and get something meaningful off of that.

Do I do it? Hardly ever. Shine grab is silly and usually is the better choice.

 

[All4G0dsGl0ry]

Yeah, I figured grab would be the better/safer option 99% of the time. Just wondering what situations are there where pressure would be superior. So it sounds like ics and falcon and maybe when they are at higher percentage and u-throw > u-air won't convert

 

[Deleted member]

upthrow is the conversion. let the positional advantage do the work for you.

good sword technique does not mean swinging it as hard as you can. let the blade do the work for you.

 

[Doomolish]

upthrow is the conversion. let the positional advantage do the work for you.

good sword technique does not mean swinging it as hard as you can. let the blade do the work for you.

Finish your drastic improvement thread!

 

[Bones0]

ICs are the last character you'll want to shield pressure. The risk of getting grabbed is way too high. They can do their lightshield trick to make L-cancelling much harder, you lose all of your pressure if they get hit by a shine because you can't follow up, and they slide really far even when hard shielding so you can't stay on top of them.

There aren't a list of situations where shield pressure is better than grabbing. It's dependent on so many factors that you have to simply get good at both and train your intuition to know when to use each one. If a player is holding shield all game and getting their OoS punishes on you, then obviously you will want to grab more. If someone is jumping into your shield pressure and getting hit every time, then there'd be no reason to start grabbing. You also have to consider stage positioning, percent, stock differential, risk incurred by choosing the wrong option, and a ton of other subtle nuances.