Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[.K1]

Just had a quick question.....what is typically considered "most difficult to do" executionally with fox (in an actual match / practically)? Im assuming its just various forms of shield pressure?

Also, do all "shine combos" work from 0%? Like....can I do shine > usmash (or any other followup / string) starting at 0%? Or are some % specific?

 

[Dark Hart]

Not bad. I'd say that you are very comfortable on platforms, but you have very telegraphed attacks from the platform. Lots of waveland aerials or running off the platform into aerials that the Marth was picking up on.

Yea, I like to run around on the platforms but I'm not the best at getting off the them "safely" so to speak.

I also noticed that I would try the same thing 2-3 times in a row, e.g. fh nairs, and by the third one I'd get grabbed, or I'd have some reckless moments and just run in and get hit or grabbed.

Also he kept slight DIing my upthrow and for some reason that was throwing me off, he kept swatting me away it seemed :/

awesome, anyone else have anything before I go to the next video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXfeJzVF3V8

again anything would be helpful coughcoughlookingatyouumbreoncough

 

[Sauce Boss]

Wavedash off platform->bair
simple as fk but i still screw it up everytime
halp?

 

[Vegard]

Wavedash off platform->bair
simple as fk but i still screw it up everytime
halp?

What happens when you screw it up? What I do is to simply wavedash and slide the c-stick left or right as soon as I drop off the platform

 

[.K1]

Is there any particular good way to practice shield pressure / shine pressure consistency? What I plan on doing is going to a stage with a wall in training mode, then doing drill > shine > drill > shine > etc until ive got my short hop out of shine 100% consistent. Is this a good idea? Or could this negatively affect my execution in some way? I can do waveshine stuff pretty well (shine > usmash, shine > grab, and shine > shine)

Anything else I should focus on regarding pressure and if so, HOW can I practice it? Also, im not sure if im making things harder for myself or if what im doing is typical but when I do shine pressure stuff, I basically do:

whatever > shine > jump cancel (with Y) > air dodge down (or left/right) > shine.

Would it be easier to do jump cancels with tapping up on the stick?


Sorry for the crapton of questions.

 

[RaynEX]

Is there any particular good way to practice shield pressure / shine pressure consistency? What I plan on doing is going to a stage with a wall in training mode, then doing drill > shine > drill > shine > etc until ive got my short hop out of shine 100% consistent. Is this a good idea? Or could this negatively affect my execution in some way? I can do waveshine stuff pretty well (shine > usmash, shine > grab, and shine > shine)

Anything else I should focus on regarding pressure and if so, HOW can I practice it? Also, im not sure if im making things harder for myself or if what im doing is typical but when I do shine pressure stuff, I basically do:

whatever > shine > jump cancel (with Y) > air dodge down (or left/right) > shine.

Would it be easier to do jump cancels with tapping up on the stick?


Sorry for the crapton of questions.

For practicing shield pressure and consistent execution out of shine, this method has been my go-to for about 5 years. This is the best method in my experience because it allows you to hit an opponent's body as much as you want without a wall being present or knockback getting in the way, while also replicating the timing of hitting a shield. This can be done against character but I prefer comboing big targets.

1. Select lvl. 1 Bowser as your opponent
2. go to options and set damage ratio to 0.5 (reduces knockback on all hits)
3. turn handicap on
4. set Bowser's handicap to 9 and yours to 1 (further reduces your knockback)
5. Enjoy!


You CAN be shieldgrabbed out of your "whatever > shine > jump cancel (with Y) > air dodge down (or left/right) > shine" at the airdodge part if your opponent is expecting it.

Shine -> jumpcancel -> Dair / Nair is staple JC shine pressure and beats any action out of shield if the JC dair / nair is done asap, but wavelanding like you described can be useful to get behind your opponent, especially against characters that have that blind spot (e.g.: Marth). Once the opponent stops trying to shieldgrab in between shine pressure, you can mix it up with JC delayed nair (hits low and reapplies heavy frame advantage) or do the waveland thing you mentioned earlier.

Oh and you should practice shine JC grab with this handicap setting, it's really useful in actual matches if you call their block.

 

[.K1]

thank you sir. I can do almost all options out of shine pretty consistently already, I just need to make sure everything is nice and clean.

 

[Jim Morrison]

How do you approach Marth on FD without getting grabbed?
Alternately, how do you stop his approach after shooting 2 SHDL's.
The ass throws off my game which completely relies on moving around him with platforms.

 

[Bones0]

How do you approach Marth on FD without getting grabbed?
Alternately, how do you stop his approach after shooting 2 SHDL's.
The *** throws off my game which completely relies on moving around him with platforms.

You have to outfox him.
Don't shoot 2 SHDLs in the first place. Unless, of course, you enjoy fighting a Marth with stage control (aka god mode) for the price of 5%.
I have no idea what that censored word is.

 

[Dark Hart]

Can someone give me some Fox ditto tips? I hate the ditto

Here's a recent LF set between me and Bl@ckChris, it's a ditto

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kha7d6b0es

 

[Tarv]

Took a few month break from Melee where I did not even think about the game once, but picked it up again a few days ago on a whim. Sadly my Fox sucks (like even more so) than usual, I think I might cry. Oddly enough, I can do stuff like mutlishines, waveshines, drillshines, shfffls, WDs, wavelands all fine but I'm having a lot of trouble with my OOS and jump-cancel options. Hell, I cant even upsmash OOS correctly anymore. Shine grabs I can do but not very well, and I always miss dash-cancelled upsmashes. Finally, I realize that I still can't shielddrop properly. I'm not sure if I'm just rusty or flat-out dont know how to do these things anymore.

Sorry if my terminology is off, it's been awhile.

 

[All4G0dsGl0ry]

so i'm practicing wavelanding back onto the stage, and it seems like I hit it more consistently when i put a shine immediately after dropping. i've seen other people do this in vids (silentwolf, unknown, sfat, etc...) and i figured it was all flash, but it seems to be more consistent. any reason for this? and should i practice it like that or regularly.

 

[Pengie]

so i'm practicing wavelanding back onto the stage, and it seems like I hit it more consistently when i put a shine immediately after dropping. i've seen other people do this in vids (silentwolf, unknown, sfat, etc...) and i figured it was all flash, but it seems to be more consistent. any reason for this? and should i practice it like that or regularly.

Practice it regularly. By shining you waste invincibility frames because you spend time that you could be ledgedashing on shining, then jumping. This is a pretty big deal if you aren't doing them perfectly invincibly as it is because you need all of the invincibility that you can get.

 

[Bones0]

so i'm practicing wavelanding back onto the stage, and it seems like I hit it more consistently when i put a shine immediately after dropping. i've seen other people do this in vids (silentwolf, unknown, sfat, etc...) and i figured it was all flash, but it seems to be more consistent. any reason for this? and should i practice it like that or regularly.

The reason it helps is because as long as you press B at the same time as your ledgedrop input, you won't dip very far down below the ledge. The same effect can be achieved by simply jumping the first frame after dropping, and that's the best way to do it because it will allow you to keep as much invincibility as possible. It will seem harder at first, but if you think of the Y button as replacing the B button it will make it feel more natural. From there, you just have to make sure your airdodge is following your jump input at the appropriate timing.

 

[MountainGoat]

Can someone give me some advice/input on the mechanics of some of Fox's tech? Is there an optimal part of your thumb to use or optimal part of the button to use? Right now I exclusively use the y button but have been experimenting between using the tip of the thumb or using the the hard part of the thumb where the joint is (iono if that makes sense). Is there an optimal way to do it or is it just down to preference and they can all be effective? I've found that using the joint part of the thumb works fine for falco but when I transfer it over to Fox I can't seem to do it fast enough.

 

[BTmoney]

Can someone give me some advice/input on the mechanics of some of Fox's tech? Is there an optimal part of your thumb to use or optimal part of the button to use? Right now I exclusively use the y button but have been experimenting between using the tip of the thumb or using the the hard part of the thumb where the joint is (iono if that makes sense). Is there an optimal way to do it or is it just down to preference and they can all be effective? I've found that using the joint part of the thumb works fine for falco but when I transfer it over to Fox I can't seem to do it fast enough.

What are you trying to do exactly, in general? I hold my controller and press buttons slightly differently when I'm playing Fox as opposed to another character. I usually use the tip of my thumb. My controller etiquette is much more relaxed when I play Falco or another character.

I don't think there's a big functional difference between my two "styles" but the different posture helps me separate characters in my head and makes it easier to build up character specific muscle memory. A while ago I had a very hard time switching from Fox to Falco/Marth. I would mess up everything; things I would have never missed when I mained Falco or Marth. But the more I played the easier and more natural it got. I don't have to think too hard about slowing down a bit to play Falco or speeding up to play Fox and etc. My secondaries aren't good at all because I put no time into them but from a technical standpoint I can switch between them pretty well.

(But I still do things like JC usmash because I'll input the c-stick too fast on accident whenever I try to instant upair as Falcon because he's so slow and stupid and I play Fox.)

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

if you play falco or any other character, you can keep the exact same hand "styles" when you go to play fox, the only thing that i see differently is for some hard stuff like double shines, jump canceled shines, and shines out of shield, you may want to do them with the tip of your thumb etc.
i do things slightly more efficient with fox than falco since falcos jc shine is so easy once you learn the timing
foxs is pretty hard grounded but we all find our methods to do it consistently.

explaining someone tech is pretty hard over the internet but asking people here what hand positions they used for some of the harder tech is exactly what i did, 6-7 months ago whenever i made an account here lol.

i try my best to fuse fox and falcos timings so i dont ever get thrown off too much when switching, if i were to switch in a set, i definitely would feel comfortable and i choose not to notice differences in wavedashes and dashdances lol
grinding out techkill practice, while frowned upon in 2013, i still feel strongly about it cuz the more control you have over your character, the better your chances are of not ****ing up **** is i guess

 

[MountainGoat]

The thing I'm having the most trouble with is waveshining and wavedashing out of shield.

 

[All4G0dsGl0ry]

if you play falco or any other character, you can keep the exact same hand "styles" when you go to play fox, the only thing that i see differently is for some hard stuff like double shines, jump canceled shines, and shines out of shield, you may want to do them with the tip of your thumb etc.
i do things slightly more efficient with fox than falco since falcos jc shine is so easy once you learn the timing
foxs is pretty hard grounded but we all find our methods to do it consistently.

explaining someone tech is pretty hard over the internet but asking people here what hand positions they used for some of the harder tech is exactly what i did, 6-7 months ago whenever i made an account here lol.

i try my best to fuse fox and falcos timings so i dont ever get thrown off too much when switching, if i were to switch in a set, i definitely would feel comfortable and i choose not to notice differences in wavedashes and dashdances lol
grinding out techkill practice, while frowned upon in 2013, i still feel strongly about it cuz the more control you have over your character, the better your chances are of not ****ing up **** is i guess

Why is grinding out tech practice frowned upon?

 

[BTmoney]

how much does tilting your shield up and towards Falco help when he approaches you with dair, nair, and bair?

Does it make it hit high enough for it to make a difference in practice?
Falco still retains the option to opt for lower and later aerials. I don't think tilting would help vs that at all.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

Why is grinding out tech practice frowned upon?

cuz people for somereason hate on players on the boards, who are technically sound but struggle in the mental/knoweldgeble aspects of the game like spacing lmao


atm i dont punish when people should be dead, and i give people alot of space, i give my opponent no worries about being punished. (on certain stuff like ****ing peach dash attack

i never get the big hits with falco, i just have these small moments where i dont continue after getting a combo starter. i just leave and then they just rack on more percent

i guess the match ups like marth and peach brings out these habits cuz of fear of being in their spacing, the big thing is i dont get what it means to have good spacing. anyone got anythoughts on punish game + spacing

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

The thing I'm having the most trouble with is waveshining and wavedashing out of shield.

dont know how to multiquote

a cool trick people find useful for the wavedashes out of shield is to not shield all the way down, (as in dont click the trigger)
if you hold the trigger down just enough before it clicks, you can simply jump and then click the trigger to get the air dodge

youll notice your wavedashes look dank as **** cuz it becomes smooth as hell, much easier then other methods imo

 

[All4G0dsGl0ry]

Yeah. I think both aspects are crucial, but I believe control of your character comes first. Maybe they frown more upon the people who are only interested in how many multi shines you can do in a row

 

[BTmoney]

Well yes and no to the above posts. Grinding out techskill or being technical is not frowned upon. Having obscure techskill that you wasted time learning while having major holes in your game is. For example no one cares (and it won't help you) if you can consistently hit aerial shine->nair as Fox if you can't waveshine or have bad spacing. Fundamentals come first (this game has so many parallels with basketball), the more solid your fundamentals are the less gimmicks and mindgames you need and the less volatile your matches become. You can just out play your opponent and win when you should. If you're perfectly technical then losing should only occur when 1. you don't know enough information or 2. you made bad decisions (or you're playing a nonviable character).

People need to change their definition of being technical.

Techskill should only be put towards...useful tech surprisingly enough.
Being technical should be being able to pull off whatever play you deemed appropriate at the time (optimal). Basically there's 2 main aspects (3 aspects when you're bad like me, the extra one is learning), in my mind, to playing this game: decision making and execution. Once you figure out what you should be doing in each instance you need to move your fingers and pull it off.


Instead of practicing multishines you should practice uthrow/uair so you 1 you never miss and 2 you're as deep as possible to mitigate SDI

You should practice never messing up a waveshine (which includes never turning around inappropriately in shine) whether it be 1 or more

You should practice spacing your run so you can run cancel into a shine "out of" a dash

You should practice never messing up your JC (pretty much every single player messes that up)

You should practice SHDL on demand (the first time) so you have the option to use that tool when you decide it's appropriate

Instead of practicing crazy shield pressure in inappropriate situations (I'm still adamant that you probably shouldn't shield pressure in most situations as Fox when you're not by the ledge. You should shine grab uthrow->**** the cast) you should spend that time figuring out how and when people shield so you can get more shine grabs and grabs in general.

And more important than probably anything else you should practice dashdancing.

Techskill kind of falls in line with optimal play discussion

 

[Deleted member]

damn, look at the big pants on victor.

 

[BTmoney]

damn, look at the big pants on victor.

I need to harass you more/again (and start playing again lolol) so I can be good for apex

I only have a few conceptual/MU things left to work on. I'll let you know how i'm doing after I get back into the swing of things

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

hell yea to smash parallels with basketball, being a fundamental player is the most important thing

 

[BTmoney]

In practice can you buffer roll out of a peach fair before she can fair->dsmash or fair->grab?

My thoughts/frames:
If it's spaced perfectly and performed frame perfect (and it's fresh) then I think you are -3 frames too slow to get your roll invincibility before a dsmash comes out IIRC (since when done perfectly FC puts peach at +4, dsmash hits on frame 5, so that would give you 1 frame to act and you are invincible on the 4th frame & onwards for your roll animation. So you could start your roll but you'd get hit out of it).

I think between the spacing element, the fact that peach probably won't hit the next button on the 1st frame possible (fair->next attack), and the stale multiplier a human might drop 3 frames between all of that.


I'm not too worried about the jab mixup though since I don't think it actually combos into anything. Can't I just DI the jabs away or something

edit:
http://youtu.be/38EXis5cWJU?t=1m18s

holy **** this is basically what I'm talking about, where mango jumps out of bair->dsmash and grabs him. That looks ****.

 

[FrootLoop]

I think the main reason it's not real is that peach won't be doing latest possible fair. They need to do it earlier in order to use it's priority. In so many situations you can just pick your spots to roll and not have to block and deal with the frame advantage

 

[Tero.]

Well to provide you with some data:

Fair

Shield stun: 15
Shield hit lag: 7
Advantage: -4
Advantage float cancelled: +4

Bair

Shield stun: 14
Shield hit lag: 6
Advantage: +1
Advantage float cancelled: +4

Dsmash hits Frame 5

So if perfectly executed there is no rolling out of late aerial dsmash

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

what does a spacies do oos when peach fairs it float canceled and also not float canceled.

also should i buffer rolls as a defensive option cuz i try not to roll at all but i see some good players use it to stop a conversion

 

[All4G0dsGl0ry]

more on the peach match up, what do i do with her dash attacks?

 

[PGH Carroll]

Upsmash OOS

 

[Deleted member]

make a video out of her lol

like really whatever you want.

 

[Sauce Boss]

more on the peach match up, what do i do with her dash attacks?

overshooting sh->nair to waveshine usmash works pretty well, camping her with lasers is a good benefit as fox
fullhop bair her a lot, cc her dash attacks, grap uthrow uair a lot
pretty basic stuff that matchup for fox is trash imo so playing that matchup is a breeeze
also you can shine->waveshine->grab->uthrow->usmash and get her % up a good bit.

also the guy who asked about peach float canceling fairs she should rarely hit those if you're on stage moving around, you're a lot faster than her fair sometimes you can grab her out of it lol

 

[Bones0]

Nairing into a waveshine followup is extremely risky and unlikely to work. They can CC the nair, and even if they don't, nair usually knocks her into the air preventing your shine from leading to usmash, grab, or whatever.

 

[Apasher]

What situations do each of Fox's aggressive tools end up being the safest?

Learning how to play aggro Fox.

 

[Omni]

Try to be a bit more specific with your question. Fox's "aggressive tools" differ pending on match-ups, stages, %'s, etc

 

[Deleted member]

What situations do each of Fox's aggressive tools end up being the safest?

Learning how to play aggro Fox.

equally nebulous answer:

dash and jump better

grab or bair intercepts without over-extending usually ends up being the best

 

[Sauce Boss]

Nairing into a waveshine followup is extremely risky and unlikely to work. They can CC the nair, and even if they don't, nair usually knocks her into the air preventing your shine from leading to usmash, grab, or whatever.

well, I guess, lol, but it's safe in some situations (I think so at least)