Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[ShroudedOne]

If you catch her when she's in float/has jumped at certain percents (I feel like it begins around 35 but I'm honestly not sure?) you can nair > utilt > uair her (or get some variation of that). Nairing grounded Peach under like 70% is strictly a bad idea, overshoot or not.

 

[Apasher]

I apologize for being too much of a bad player to not be specific enough for my question.

 

[BTmoney]

so... grab (shine), bair, and laser? Let's try that

 

[Sauce Boss]

How good of an option is it when applying pressure, to sh->waveland backwards and approach with a nair and go from there
I was just wondering because it's just something I had kind of realized looked like a good option but could be approached on after backing off of pressure, but I Feel as if you can just mindgame them by running around the shield and sh->wavelanding backwards away from them.

 

[KirbyKaze]

//SH towards --> WL away// is mostly useful for drawing out reflexive shield grabs and other counterattacks. During the WL away you should really be paying attention to your opponent and checking to see what their response is. Whether or not the second half of your suggested play (which is the approaching nair after the jump / waveland motion) is going to be effective or not is dependent on how they respond to the first half.

In general I think it's fine to go in with a nair afterwards as long as the opponent basically doesn't respond to this by moving away from you. This is basically a baiting strategy that has a chance of disorienting them. So if you can make either of those things happen (disorient them or bait them) then you probably produced an opening. If they recognize this for what it is and use it to create breathing room, then it's probably a bad idea to automatically go in with a risky commitment.

 

[Omni]

I apologize for being too much of a bad player to not be specific enough for my question.

You're forgiven.

well, I guess, lol, but it's safe in some situations (I think so at least)

It's safe on platforms and sometimes when they're standing up from the ledge, but the general consensus is to stay away from n-air on grounded Peach. Instead, fish for grabs, bait with lasers. Spaced b-airs are great. Falling u-airs are great. Drill's are okay as long as you're not too predictable with them as Peach can get a free u-air trade if she reads it correctly.

 

[Bones0]

//SH towards --> WL away// is mostly useful for drawing out reflexive shield grabs and other counterattacks. During the WL away you should really be paying attention to your opponent and checking to see what their response is. Whether or not the second half of your suggested play (which is the approaching nair after the jump / waveland motion) is going to be effective or not is dependent on how they respond to the first half.

In general I think it's fine to go in with a nair afterwards as long as the opponent basically doesn't respond to this by moving away from you. This is basically a baiting strategy that has a chance of disorienting them. So if you can make either of those things happen (disorient them or bait them) then you probably produced an opening. If they recognize this for what it is and use it to create breathing room, then it's probably a bad idea to automatically go in with a risky commitment.

Chillin actually does exactly this at 1:35.

 

[Sauce Boss]

Any advice on the falco matchup???? I know shine oos is pretty effective when they do the stupid shine bair dair stuff on shield, but aside from that idk what to do to beat a lot of falcos.

 

[Pengie]

Full jumping is really helpful against Falco. If you shield a laser while Falco is at about mid range you can full jump out of shield and if he approaches after the laser with something like a nair/dair, you can avoid it and come down on top of him with a drill or bair. Drill is a bit riskier but gives a better reward and beats potential crouch cancels, but bair is typically safer and you can run away after the bair to avoid something like CC shine when the bair is spaced properly. When he lasers closer to you, full jumping doesn't work as well because he can catch your jump with a nair and that can lead into a derpy combo. In this situation, they also typically like to overshoot an early aerial so that they end up pretty far behind you. While this looks like it's really safe, you can usually punish it with a WD OoS into a shine, although sometimes the spacing will be such that they end up too far away for this to work so try to recognize the spacings where it does and doesn't work. If it doesn't work, WD OoS away from them and go back to neutral.

If he gets in on you and puts you into the aerial -> shine grinder, get comfortable with knowing where the holes in his pressure are; if Falco does an early/rising aerial and doesn't retreat while doing it you can shield grab him on reaction when he lands, if he does do an early/rising aerial while retreating you can WD OoS and shine to punish him, if he like to do late aerials you can stuff his delayed aerial by upsmashing OoS and in most cases it will beat it and in the event that it trades you usually win the trade outside of situations where you are at a really high percent and he isn't. This takes a lot of practice to get used to recognizing where the holes are but if you can get it down you make Falco's pressure far more more manageable.

Avoid getting stuck in your shield or getting stuck not moving in general. A big part of this is dealing with getting hit by lasers. Remember that lasers don't have very much hitstun so try to get back to moving as quickly as possible when you get hit. Between this, powershielding, and jumping over them, Falco's lasers become a lot more manageable which makes the match up a lot easier to play on Fox's part.

 

[BTmoney]

I'm glad you mentioned that. FH bair is my go to tool vs Falco. Or I'll do something stupid if he lets me.
I also do a lot of platform camping.

I feel like if you're solid defensively (you have a tight OOS game, good DI, and you don't miss techs) the MU becomes way easier.

That's all very generic but Pengie said most of what I wanted to say. I want more input on this =]
I think the next thing I need to improve on is getting my DD back in the MU.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

sh in wl out is so good especially when both players playstyles resort to not approaching and just dashdancing and wavedashing around eachothers spacing

if 2 foxs are both doing this and are both reluctant to throw out the first arial or grab, how does the game even start cuz obviously if the first action whiffs, the other person gets a free grab and instantly feels comfortable

first hit spacies is dumb

also how do you do first hit against marth and shiek if they dont throw out punishable stuff like whiffed grabs/ nairs/ etc

 

[Apasher]

I'm just remembering that Fox's grab game is a thing.

There goes all of my stupid aerials and stocks that I just throw out for no reason.

 

[BTmoney]

Wow bair vs peach is incredible

wtf have I been doing

also, are there any players who have solid firefox stalling?

 

[Medz!]

hey guys i have a few sets from an AZ tourney i went to this saturday and placed 3rd since since axe, wobbles didnt go. I lost to tai in winners 2-1 and got bodied, i played him again in losers finals and i did much better, ill post that set once its uploaded. heres the set in winners http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V5AAjjixOA
constructive criticism is much appreciated and anything i shouldnt do since i got punished so much, thanks in advance

 

[Bones0]

Wow bair vs peach is incredible

wtf have I been doing

also, are there any players who have solid firefox stalling?

Silent Wolf and Leffen (probably Lovage as well).

hey guys i have a few sets from an AZ tourney i went to this saturday and placed 3rd since since axe, wobbles didnt go. I lost to tai in winners 2-1 and got bodied, i played him again in losers finals and i did much better, ill post that set once its uploaded. heres the set in winners http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V5AAjjixOA

constructive criticism is much appreciated and anything i shouldnt do since i got punished so much, thanks in advance

Make sure you DI Marth's combos to the top plat. You kept getting walloped on the side plats for way longer than you should have been. You jumped at Tai too much. Every time you stayed grounded in neutral you did a pretty good job of getting in on him, so it was kinda weird that you kept switching to SHFFLs that he can easily DD grab. If he's not by the ledge, you basically wanting to be doing the aerial so that you are either going to cross them up or barely hit their movement away. If that's not guaranteed, don't even do it. Even then, you were always using nair which a lot of players will just ASDI down and shield grab over and over. *coughmew2kingcough* Mix in drills, especially when you don't think you'll end up landing in front of his shield. Another great option to keep in mind when doing aerial approaches is that you can always abort mid-SHFFL by DJ WLing onto a plat, often preceded by aerial shining on their shield just to keep them in check.

PS sucks vs. Marth. It's basically FD with two really low plats that are perfect for Marth and barely help you move around more than no plats. If you are going to go there, you have to at least play more patiently since both characters have so much room. SHFFLing aggressively is so awful because Marth can WD back without really risking anything. If he was wrong about you approaching, he has plenty of space behind him to work with whereas on other stages one good fake out can pin someone at the ledge. After game 1, I don't remember seeing any of the running shines or grabs that were the whole reason you won.

 

[Dark Hart]

Can someone give me some Fox ditto tips? I hate the ditto

Here's a recent LF set between me and Bl@ckChris, it's a ditto

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kha7d6b0es

no one?

 

[Omni]

Watching it now. Will edit with response.

Edit: Won't let me edit. Activate mod powers. Which one is you?

Assuming you're the Green One:

1.) You have this really weird habit of ending all your aerials into Up-Tilt instead of SHFFL'ing into shine. Against Fox, there is no real gain from following up an with an up-tilt since the other Fox can just CC shine it, or shine OOS. Plus it probably wouldn't combo that well as say... Peach. More importantly, landing your shine in this match-up is crucial because it forces knockdown and sets up the tech chase game. It also sets up edgeguard gimps which I didn't see happen at all from both of you. So I'd suggest following your aerials with more shines. (I don't think you did a single aerial into shine Game 1.)

2.) Incorporate more offensive shines into your Fox play.

3.) You full hop n-air approach and full hop a lot in general. The other Fox played a much stronger ground game.

That's all I can say for now.

 

[Dark Hart]

Thank you! I didn't even notice that first one about my ditto game, and I can't really explain it lol

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

in the marth matchup where you both are grounded and neither of you are jumping, kinda just feelin eachother out, is there alot of risk weaving in and out throwing out running shines then if they whiff quickly wavedash out?

 

[AuraStUrm]

Is there any situation where backwards wavedash out of shine (without turning around) would be useful? That's the one tech thing that gives me trouble.

 

[Omni]

Is there any situation where backwards wavedash out of shine (without turning around) would be useful? That's the one tech thing that gives me trouble.

Only situation I can think of is if you want to waveshine backwards to ledgehog. Or if you want to follow up with SH b-air pressure.

I'm pretty sure you can get the same mileage with both waveshines, but I find waveshining backwards to be most useful against Marth when I want to go for waveshine -> running up-smash to combo. I seem to get better max wavedash lengths when I do the backwards waveshine which helps me connect that combo.

 

[Bones0]

Only situation I can think of is if you want to waveshine backwards to ledgehog. Or if you want to follow up with SH b-air pressure.

I'm pretty sure you can get the same mileage with both waveshines, but I find waveshining backwards to be most useful against Marth when I want to go for waveshine -> running up-smash to combo. I seem to get better max wavedash lengths when I do the backwards waveshine which helps me connect that combo.

He said without turning around, so it's not really applicable for getting onto the ledge faster (unless you just shine spiked somebody while facing center stage I guess).

You definitely need to be able to WD in both directions out of shine with and without turning around. As a simple example, if Peach does a dsmash on the back of your shield and you get pushed away, you have limited counterattack options. If you can't WD backwards OoS into a waveshine without turning around, you are basically limited to WD OoS waveshine grab/usmash. Grab isn't very likely to hit and is pretty risky if they dodge it, and usmash won't combo into anything. The best option will generally be WD backwards OoS into waveshine utilt, and not turning around makes sure your utilt hitbox is closer to the opponent.

 

[Omni]

He said without turning around, so it's not really applicable for getting onto the ledge faster (unless you just shine spiked somebody while facing center stage I guess).

Ya'. So like drillkick from the ledge, shine, wavedash back to grab ledge sorta' thing.

You definitely need to be able to WD in both directions out of shine with and without turning around. As a simple example, if Peach does a dsmash on the back of your shield and you get pushed away, you have limited counterattack options. If you can't WD backwards OoS into a waveshine without turning around, you are basically limited to WD OoS waveshine grab/usmash. Grab isn't very likely to hit and is pretty risky if they dodge it, and usmash won't combo into anything. The best option will generally be WD backwards OoS into waveshine utilt, and not turning around makes sure your utilt hitbox is closer to the opponent.

I think he can wavedash Out of Shield; his issue is wavedashing backwards out of shine. So if he can wavedash backwards OoS into shine, then do a turnaround waveshine, he's still in place to punish peach accordingly with an up-smash, grab, reverse utilt.

 

[Bones0]

Ya'. So like drillkick from the ledge, shine, wavedash back to grab ledge sorta' thing.



I think he can wavedash Out of Shield; his issue is wavedashing backwards out of shine. So if he can wavedash backwards OoS into shine, then do a turnaround waveshine, he's still in place to punish peach accordingly with an up-smash, grab, reverse utilt.

I never said he couldn't WD OoS. In the scenario I described, you have to WD OoS towards the Peach during her dsmash lag, then you shine (she's still behind you), and after that shine you have to chase her with a WD without changing directions.

Turning around in shine and then turning back around in order to utilt after WDing is significantly slower than simply WDing backwards.

 

[Omni]

...But why would he be trying to waveshine to u-tilt Peach in the first place? Much more practical to up-smash or grab.

I guess what I'm saying is facing Peach after a waveshine is much more beneficial then facing away.

 

[Bones0]

...But why would he be trying to waveshine to u-tilt Peach in the first place? Much more practical to up-smash or grab.

I guess what I'm saying is facing Peach after a waveshine is much more beneficial then facing away.

If she's not at KO percent and you're strictly going for damage, utilt -> uair/bair is better than a throw (which is also much easier for them to DI on reaction). I guess it's a judgement call, but the whole thing was just an example anyway. There's always scenarios coming up in games where you don't want to waveshine facing forward.

 

[.K1]

This question has probably been answered a million times, but if I do a short hopped drill (l cancelled) into a shine, is that a "true" blockstring or is it punishable in any way? Also, is shine JC SH Drill a "true" blockstring as well or can it be punished in any way? Like....can it be interrupted with an OoS option (in general, not including an opponents shine or rest) or a shield grab?

 

[ChivalRuse]

Anyone got time to take a scalpel to my Fox?

http://www.twitch.tv/tdude51/b/477936959

Grand finals set 1:15:00 and on.

 

[BTmoney]

This question has probably been answered a million times, but if I do a short hopped drill (l cancelled) into a shine, is that a "true" blockstring or is it punishable in any way? Also, is shine JC SH Drill a "true" blockstring as well or can it be punished in any way? Like....can it be interrupted with an OoS option (in general, not including an opponents shine or rest) or a shield grab?

Barring SDI and messing up in general (it's sort of commonly missed), drill->shine is definitely a combo

If they jump into your drill (or they are airborne when you hit them with drill) you might get punished as they land (fyi, maybe you're experiencing that) because they'll land with basically no lag

Also I think shine->drill->shine->drill is a combo vs high traction characters like Falcon/Peach but idk. It works vs a lot of characters but idk how tight it actually is. I would feel comfortable doing vs a Peach but not a Marth that's DI'ing away. I can't give you specifics, I just don't actually know the facts

 

[.K1]

I know that drillshine works on hit and im pretty familiar with the characters it works on, I was moreso asking about on block/shield which is why I asked "is that a true "blockstring".

Thanks for responding though

 

[BTmoney]

I know that drillshine works on hit and im pretty familiar with the characters it works on, I was moreso asking about on block/shield which is why I asked "is that a true "blockstring".

Thanks for responding though

Ah, well drill is pretty (very, in my experience) punishable on shield. It's pretty great if their shield is low and you aim to shield stab them but other than that I wouldn't recommend drilling a shield at all.

If you were asking if that's a good form of shield pressure or if it has small windows to be punished on block (drill->shine->drill) then the answer is no. Sorry if I don't fully understand your question =]

If a "true block string" is something that locks your opponent in shield stun then that does not exist in this game (1v1). There is no repeatable pressure you can do on shield to keep someone locked in stun (which includes multshining with Fox or Falco, you can buffer a roll or time a roll after the 2nd shine vs Fox. IIRC you can do the same vs Falco, the holes are basically the same but I've never looked as deep into Falco's multishine pressure. I just know you can roll out of it at some point, or spot dodge, etc.)

 

[.K1]

^^ This answers my question much better. Thanks!

The only issue that arises is that ive been doing some reading (in the past hour or so) and in the "shield pressure research and information" thread, its listed that drill is -5 on shield after an L cancel. Since shine is 1f, that would put Fox at a total of -6 (shine comes out on the 6th frame)....so TECHNICALLY Drillshine on shield SHOULD be able to beat any shield grab attempt (as far as I know, shield grabs are 7f startup). Fox's shine should also beat out pretty much every OoS aerial in the game except OoS Shine and OoS Rest


My math might be a little off considering every character has a different amount of prejump frames, but im fairly certain the circumstances are still true.


TL;DR

Drillshine is theoretically always safe on shield except vs Puff and other Spacies (I believe the only true punish they have is OoS Shine / Rest).


If im wrong someone PLEASE correct me. I dont want to be running around drillshining everyone thinking I have impunity. Also, I dont know if crouch cancelling ****s all of this up or not lol.

Need someone to confirm / deny !

 

[Pengie]

While that is what the frame data shows, there are a few problems with drill shine shield pressure. Namely, it's really easy to shield DI the drill out of range of the shine and grab Fox as he whiffs his shine. It's also really finicky because your advantage is different depending on the number of hits of your drill gets on their shield iirc.

 

[BTmoney]

Yes^

For example, if you hit drill on the lowest and latest frame possible before hitting the ground I am pretty sure (I tested this one day in debug mode a while ago) it true combos into grab if you do everything frame perfect. However if you don't it doesn't.

For all intents and purposes, in practice, drill is pretty easy to shield grab and gets shield grabbed pretty often (and that observation is only citing good/high level gameplay)

Shine "beats" a lot of moves just because it has no startup but understand that shield pressure is a give/take situation. If you late aerial->shine you can be grabbed before your aerial. If you early aerial->shine you can be grabbed before you are actionable and can shine. If you split the timing exactly you can be grabbed before and after. That is very general. Sorry I don't feel like going in depth on this because I feel like I have already talked about this 100x personally. I'm more interested in that kind of stuff than most people but I have some good, long posts about it and some good information other people have given me/is publicly available on the safety of shield pressure if you want to talk about it. I would say I'm well read on it and I have a firm grasp of pretty much everything Fox-shield pressure related.

 

[.K1]

^^ thanks for clearing that stuff up. Much appreciated.

 

[Sauce Boss]

What moves should you do to out prioritize sheik? When you out prioritize against her (i.e cc a tilt or something) what should you follow up with?

 

[BTmoney]

What moves should you do to out prioritize sheik? When you out prioritize against her (i.e cc a tilt or something) what should you follow up with?

I generally think it's a mistake to try to out prioritize stuff from neutral with Fox unless you're doing a rising bair or an uptilt. Those moves can do a lot of work. Fox is a relatively low priority character. I think he's better suited to preemptively stuff moves and bait/punish stuff from his opponent. I think it's a better idea to focus on avoiding and baiting Sheik's tilts rather than trying to beat them.

I don't understand that last part of the question though.
If you're asking what you should do after a CC (on your part) then it sort of depends. But you can't really go wrong with uthrow/usmash/drill/shine. Really uthrow/usmash or anything that will lead to having Sheik above you or off stage will be pretty good.

If you can't get those things then go for whatever you can get without over exerting (be sure to consider the possibility of her CC'ing your counterattack)

 

[Sauce Boss]

I generally think it's a mistake to try to out prioritize stuff from neutral with Fox unless you're doing a rising bair or an uptilt. Those moves can do a lot of work. Fox is a relatively low priority character. I think he's better suited to preemptively stuff moves and bait/punish stuff from his opponent. I think it's a better idea to focus on avoiding and baiting Sheik's tilts rather than trying to beat them.

I don't understand that last part of the question though.
If you're asking what you should do after a CC (on your part) then it sort of depends. But you can't really go wrong with uthrow/usmash/drill/shine. Really uthrow/usmash or anything that will lead to having Sheik above you or off stage will be pretty good.

If you can't get those things then go for whatever you can get without over exerting (be sure to consider the possibility of her CC'ing your counterattack)

Yeah that last part answered my questions pretty well

 

[All4G0dsGl0ry]

Having a small tournament on Sunday and my main opponent will be a peach. What are some crucial things (percents for cc, things not to do, etc.) that i should be looking out for

 

[4 Aces]

Having a small tournament on Sunday and my main opponent will be a peach. What are some crucial things (percents for cc, things not to do, etc.) that i should be looking out for

Drill --> Shine --> Grab/Upsmash is good on her, since you can drill through her crouch cancel. Though, I think there might be a catch/counter to this, but generally I'd imagine that it's safe.

Nairing into a standing Peach is generally bad. At higher percents it might be acceptable to do so. Nairing an airborne Peach isn't as bad, though don't try to trade/contest with her moves directly. Only real reason to nair her is if you see an opening to stuff her attack before it happens. Trading is bad with Fox.

Lasering her is alright. But don't do it as a main strat, rather just use it as a way to send a message and force them to approach you. Try not to lose center control though.

Upthrow-->upair is ok, but only true combos at early percents. After that...Idk, I think they can nair you out of it, or you won't reach. And it's why I prefer to convert my waveshines into upsmash instead of grabs in this match-up. uptilt is good against her too. Drill --> uptilt, drill --> waveshine --> uptilt, etc.

Don't DI terribly vs. downsmash. I think DI'ing down vs. Peach's Downsmash is bad Melee's.

I'm not sure what it is with her UpB (maybe because it's disjointed), but if you're going to go off-stage for a shinespike, try to be mindful of her answer (UpB'ing you). I always get hit by it if I'm not careful. :/

Be mindful of taking her to FD. She has chain grabs on you there. It's up to you and what you're comfortable with though.

Not really sure if there's a direct answer to her Float Cancel combo pressure strings, other than to just run away from it...any input from better smashers out there? Her Fair to DSmash, etc etc can be kinda annoying -- in that I feel like I kinda just have to shield all of it or wavedash oos and just go back to neutral.