Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Bones0]

How can I counter Falco's laser spam, and are there any good combos against him?

Speaking broadly, learn to use platforms and watch Mango vs. PP at Zenith 2013. Your go to combos are going to be upward hitting moves to continue juggles (uthrow, usmash, utilt, and uair). Try not to end your combos prematurely with shines (this is something a lot of players do when they are still in that phase of wanting to press a ton of buttons).

 

[Scarlet Bean]

Speaking broadly, learn to use platforms and watch Mango vs. PP at Zenith 2013. Your go to combos are going to be upward hitting moves to continue juggles (uthrow, usmash, utilt, and uair). Try not to end your combos prematurely with shines (this is something a lot of players do when they are still in that phase of wanting to press a ton of buttons).

yeah im sort of in that phase lol. Thanks by the way

 

[All4G0dsGl0ry]

few questions:
if i'm getting grabbed during shield pressure, is it because i'm jumping too late out of shine? or is it an ariel timing thing? or both?
also, when peach crouch cancels, do i have time to hit with and a nair and still shine?

 

[Puca Readabook]

maybe I'm a lion...

 

[l will find peace]

few questions:
if i'm getting grabbed during shield pressure, is it because i'm jumping too late out of shine? or is it an ariel timing thing? or both?
also, when peach crouch cancels, do i have time to hit with and a nair and still shine?

It depends where you get grabbed.

shine has 8 frames of shield stun. most grabs come out frame 7.

jump out of shine as early as frame 4, leave the ground on frame 4 (or 3?), nair comes out on frame 4.

if you aerial -> shine -> immediate aerial, it is hard to grab, but even if you pull back really hard after you do your second aerial, you will still probably get grabbed, depending on whether they mess up or are playing characters with no grab range

if you want to delay your second aerial (maybe they have grabbed you after your second aerial 5 times this match already), then you can do that too. this will either keep them in shield stun or hit them (if they are playing the same way as they did before).

best (least risk) thing to do is to cross them up or just shine grab. the best (best thing to do) is to start with safe options and then become unpredictable whenever you hit their shield

edit: i think for fox too (as well as falco), if your nair is stale then they can grab you before shine comes out after the first aerial. the timing is all pretty tight though

 

[xDD-Master]

Can Fox Upthrow->UpAir Samus?

I seem to always miss the combo... why? =(

 

[l will find peace]

b/c its not a combo

 

[Engo]

Which is optimal punish after up throwing sheik at really low %s on FD?

Versus no DI on the throw I've been trying uptilt or short hop upair and I'm not sure if they actually work and which has better follows. I think upsmash doesn't work because I can't get the good hitbox where it needs to be before she can hit me out of it.

Versus DI to the sides I don't really know what to do at all. Is dash short hop nair real or do I just have to stalk the landing/jump?

http://smashboards.com/threads/fox-advice-questions-topic.98202/page-721#post-15310253

Unknown broke down the different combo options off of up throw for each DI/percent. Check it out it's super useful.

 

[Engo]

woops. Sorry for the double post.

 

[FrootLoop]

Thanks I knew he had posted that info but I couldn't find it.

 

[xDD-Master]

b/c its not a combo

Yeah, so its not my fault... what is the reason for it?
Is Upthrow weight dependent? (The speed of the animation)
So that it is slower vs. Samus, or is the reason something else?


Is there a list of which characters can be true UpThrow->UpAir comboed?

 

[Stijn]

Yeah, so its not my fault... what is the reason for it?
Is Upthrow weight dependent? (The speed of the animation)
So that it is slower vs. Samus, or is the reason something else?


Is there a list of which characters can be true UpThrow->UpAir comboed?

Samus is just dumb lmao

I dont really know about a list, and i am bored at school soooo
Dr. Mario/ No
Mario/ No
Luigi/ No
Bowser/ Most percents, I think he can jump out at certain percents
Peach/ Yes
Yoshi/ Mostly
DK/ No
C. Falcon/ at high percents
Ganondorf/ No
Falco/ at high percents
Fox/ at high percents
Ness/ Yes
IC's/ Uhh.. yea but id do it only against sopo, or shield spammers
Kirby/ In PAL you can, not sure about NTSC (because of weight differences)
Samus/ No
Zelda/ Yes
Sheik/ Yes
Link/ Yes
YL/ Yes
Pichu/ Yes
Pikachu/ Yes
Puff/ Yes
Mewtwo/ Yes
G&W/ Yes
Marth/ Yes
Roy/ Yes

Some stuff could be wrong though, this is coming from the perspective of a normal player's knowledge
Oh and M2K defenitely has something on this on the boards

 

[xDD-Master]

Thx

I always thought it was possible against everyone... :<
That explains why I cant get it vs some people ._."

 

[Bones0]

Yes, uthrow is weight dependent. The best way to figure out which characters you can uthrow uair is to do it in Training Mode since it gives you great practice to start trying to get it to combo at 100%, and then you can keep decreasing the % until it's super hard and you can't waste any frames. Once you usually get to the % you think you can no longer improve anymore, if you keep trying you will probably surprise yourself and knock off like 10-20% more while still being able to combo, especially on light characters where you are probably jumping way too slow. Most people do not do the crucial frame-saving techniques such as making sure you uair as soon as you DJ in order to have the uair hitbox already out by the time you reach the opponent, or they may not DJ soon enough because the height of the opponent is awkwardly in between FH height and FH+DJ height.

Also, I'm pretty sure that list is wrong on more than a few characters... Spacies being the most prominent one, as I could have sworn you could uthrow SH uair them at close to 0...

 

[BTmoney]

P sure uthrow uair doesn't true combo at kill percents vs Peach (if it ever does)

 

[rokimomi]

Anyone know why sometimes when I use z to grab (after an aerial for example), I'll get a jab instead?

 

[Stijn]

Yes, uthrow is weight dependent. The best way to figure out which characters you can uthrow uair is to do it in Training Mode since it gives you great practice to start trying to get it to combo at 100%, and then you can keep decreasing the % until it's super hard and you can't waste any frames. Once you usually get to the % you think you can no longer improve anymore, if you keep trying you will probably surprise yourself and knock off like 10-20% more while still being able to combo, especially on light characters where you are probably jumping way too slow. Most people do not do the crucial frame-saving techniques such as making sure you uair as soon as you DJ in order to have the uair hitbox already out by the time you reach the opponent, or they may not DJ soon enough because the height of the opponent is awkwardly in between FH height and FH+DJ height.

Also, I'm pretty sure that list is wrong on more than a few characters... Spacies being the most prominent one, as I could have sworn you could uthrow SH uair them at close to 0...

I was kinda looking at when it is most efficient, of course you can SHUair, but Usmash/regrab is way more common. Thats like saying that you can Uthrow Uair Samus too if she doesnt jump/nair out. But you're right, its probably better to do this yourself and find out.

 

[Bones0]

I was kinda looking at when it is most efficient, of course you can SHUair, but Usmash/regrab is way more common. Thats like saying that you can Uthrow Uair Samus too if she doesnt jump/nair out. But you're right, its probably better to do this yourself and find out.

You can't say it doesn't combo until high %s and then justify that by saying no one uses it at low %s. Saying uthrow uair works on Samus is strictly wrong. Saying it works on spacies isn't because it's possible. Whether you deem it optimal or not is completely irrelevant to the ability of the player to combo the throw into the uair.

 

[Stijn]

You can't say it doesn't combo until high %s and then justify that by saying no one uses it at low %s. Saying uthrow uair works on Samus is strictly wrong. Saying it works on spacies isn't because it's possible. Whether you deem it optimal or not is completely irrelevant to the ability of the player to combo the throw into the uair.

I dont feel like arguing about something i did because i was bored

youre right lol

 

[Dark Hart]

lol isn't Bones just the worst?

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Anyone know why sometimes when I use z to grab (after an aerial for example), I'll get a jab instead?

if you press z after getting out of the crouch animation fox jabs

 

[Heero Yuy]

Is there a guide or a single post on how to shield pressure with Fox? I can with Falco only because somehow I can match the frame data with my fingers, but Fox seems trickier.

 

[Engo]

There isn't one universal way of pressuring a shield. It's not a series of moves you can just learn from one thread.

 

[SAUS]

- If you are behind them while they are in their shield, they pretty much can't do anything unless they are also a spacie
- Usually mixing up when your attacks hit their shield can mess them up.There are openings, but it's too hard to react to them usually.
- If you space correctly, you can hit the front of their shield without getting grabbed.
- Just keeping your options open while they are shielding can be devastating pressure. If you just dash dance, stand, or do empty short-hops, you have WAY more options than they do when they are shielding. It makes it very hard for them to get away without getting hit or remaining stuck in their shield.

 

[Mawalla]

is there any thread/post that picks apart the fox v marth matchup?

 

[Medz!]

http://smashboards.com/threads/cunn...loud-version-5-00-2009-update-complete.35050/

 

[Bones0]

- If you are behind them while they are in their shield, they pretty much can't do anything unless they are also a spacie

That's not true at all...

 

[Engo]

http://smashboards.com/threads/cunn...loud-version-5-00-2009-update-complete.35050/

Wow Cunningkitsune's fox vs marth matchup guide from 2004 is surprisingly good and still pretty relevant for your average mid level fox.

The whole guide is really excellently done.

 

[Medz!]

Eddy mexico linked it to me

 

[SAUS]

That's not true at all...

Ya I don't even know why I wrote that one. I think I wanted to say something about how being behind them limits their options, but ya, it's far from "they pretty much can't do anything unless they are also a spacie".

It's still helpful to be behind someone since their shield grab option is automatically gone and depending on their character, they will have a hard time hitting you (like marth for instance loses short-hop fair and nair).

 

[Bones0]

Did a quick run through of uthrow uair percents. I'm sure these are off, but they should all be pretty close. "+" indicates it combos until at least 150%.

Dr. Mario: Never
Luigi: Never
Peach: Never
Captain Falcon: 64%+
Ganondorf: 65% - 143%
Falco: 30%+
Fox: 29%+
Ice Climbers: 40% - 65% (this one was annoying so I might be way off on the ending percent)
Samus: Never
Sheik: 20%+
Jigglypuff: 0% - 90%
Marth: 19%+

 

[xDD-Master]

Thx a lot, I was already trying on peach, and to my own surprise I wasnt able to connect.

But I think (Not sure though) that it might still be "true" on peach due to her nair "only" (XD) frame 3, slow second jump start up and air dodge first inv. frame 4.
You know what I mean?

 

[Bones0]

Thx a lot, I was already trying on peach, and to my own surprise I wasnt able to connect.

But I think (Not sure though) that it might still be "true" on peach due to her nair "only" (XD) frame 3, slow second jump start up and air dodge first inv. frame 4.
You know what I mean?

Yes, I was thinking the same thing. It's also worth keeping in mind that most people do not have the diligence or experience to act out of throws perfectly, so making your own actions as fast as possible only make it more likely that you will connect successfully before they attack, jump, or airdodge.

 

[Heero Yuy]

Is it humanely possible to SH double laser with just your thumb? I have to claw in order to do it but even then it's hard for me to shift from the regular grip to the claw.

Just wanna know if it's even still worth practicing doing with the standard way of sliding your thumb to the B button at light speeds.

 

[Zoler]

Is it humanely possible to SH double laser with just your thumb? I have to claw in order to do it but even then it's hard for me to shift from the regular grip to the claw.

Just wanna know if it's even still worth practicing doing with the standard way of sliding your thumb to the B button at light speeds.

I used to think I could never do it, but I just kept practicing and now it's pretty easy to do with just the right thumb.

 

[xDD-Master]

I can SHDL with my thumb going from X to B, I can do 2-3 reps but then I mess up, so I think, it should be totally doable to get it consistent.

 

[noobird]

Is it humanely possible to SH double laser with just your thumb? I have to claw in order to do it but even then it's hard for me to shift from the regular grip to the claw.

Just wanna know if it's even still worth practicing doing with the standard way of sliding your thumb to the B button at light speeds.

think it's about the same speed as doubleshine with falco so yes

 

[knightpraetor]

does up throw upair combo pikachu at zero? I think I naired out one game and my brother asked whether upair really works or not. I feel like he should be able to space it to beat my nair but i'm not sure if i can jump/nair out before it hits

 

[Zoler]

think it's about the same speed as doubleshine with falco so yes

No way, SHDL has to be faster?

 

[Bones0]

I think you only have the first two frames after jumping to input the first laser, and if that is the case, then SHDLs are either 1 or 2 frames faster than Falco's shineland. Fox would have to laser on frame 4 or 5 (3 frames of jumpsquat + first or second airborne frame), and Falco shines on frame 6 (5 frames of jumpsquat + first airborne frame).

SHDLing with your thumb isn't even hard though. I probably have like 95% success rate with it...