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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

BTmoney

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It's hard if you don't have the right etiquette, it's more of a sliding motion than doing three taps (Y->B->B)

Now that I can do it fine it can do it the harder way but yeah, you have to learn how to do it rather than trying to be extremely fast
 

Dark Hart

Rejected by Azua
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Is it humanely possible to SH double laser with just your thumb? I have to claw in order to do it but even then it's hard for me to shift from the regular grip to the claw.

Just wanna know if it's even still worth practicing doing with the standard way of sliding your thumb to the B button at light speeds.
There is no real 'standard' when it comes to button presses. I can shdl using y and b basically everytime, but do it in which ever way is easiest and most comfortable for you. If you need to claw to do it more power to ya
 

TKD

Smash Lord
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Tijuana, México
Is it humanely possible to SH double laser with just your thumb? I have to claw in order to do it but even then it's hard for me to shift from the regular grip to the claw.

Just wanna know if it's even still worth practicing doing with the standard way of sliding your thumb to the B button at light speeds.
Yes it is and there's no need to slide your thumb. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMIObkVZ3oA

The inputs in that video are actually faster than you can/need to do them in Melee, and I was doing them for Brawl's short hop triple blaster. The trick is using different parts of your thumb instead of trying to make the very tip of it reach every part of the controller lol.

So yes; you can DEFINITELY SHDL with just the thumb...this means you can also JC shine the same way.

think it's about the same speed as doubleshine with falco so yes
It can/should be faster. You can input the first laser at frame 4, 5 or 6. The quicker you are, the lower the height of the first shot (best way to practice is on a dummy Link as I think you need to do it as fast as possible to land both lasers). If you're consistently doing the SHDL as fast as possible, it means you can also consistently JC shine since it's the same timing (pressing B at frame 4). Remember that if you input it too quickly, Fox won't do anything though. The timing is the toughest part.
 

X- Sylar -X

Smash Journeyman
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Jul 2, 2007
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this is an interesting topic I was practicing this a lot today because I can consistently SHDL if I JC a shine before I shoot. trying to imitate this by just pressing down before i jumped seemed mildly effective but would result in constant unwanted firefoxing. On another note I am having trouble waveshining out of a SH dair. If im running or just shining i can push ppl across FD. But If I drill shine then wavedash I stand still in my shine a lot.
 

4 Aces

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 23, 2007
Messages
892
Wow Cunningkitsune's fox vs marth matchup guide from 2004 is surprisingly good and still pretty relevant for your average mid level fox.

The whole guide is really excellently done.
I call it the Fox Bible for a reason. XD

Is it humanely possible to SH double laser with just your thumb? I have to claw in order to do it but even then it's hard for me to shift from the regular grip to the claw.

Just wanna know if it's even still worth practicing doing with the standard way of sliding your thumb to the B button at light speeds.
Yes. It's possible. Just gotta be fast. And find a method that works for you, while being able to play regularly in a match (don't use standard holding, then convert to claw midmatch just to pull off lasers. >.> Doesn't seem worth it to me)

Do keep in mind that you want the first laser to come out fast and hit them (can't hit every character, but still...).
 

TKD

Smash Lord
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Tijuana, México
Can fox be shield-grabbed before his l-cancelled shine comes out?
For dair it depends on the opposing player. It has 9 cooldown frames upon landing and very low shieldstun, so the timing is really tough for the opponent. Sometimes they'll land half or most of them in time, sometimes they never will. It's definitely worth the try, specially the first couple times as they haven't had the chance to practice it. Stop trying if he's super warmed up and won't miss.

Nair is another story. The shieldstun is really big for that one and the lcancel is a shorter 7 frames. You could try it if he pulls out the nair super quickly with like no delay which gives you a couple extra frames before he lands, but I only recommend this against Falco. You do have enough time to roll though (just press the c-stick during the hit and hold).

Bair can be shieldgrabbed as it has 10 cooldown frames but it depends a lot on the spacing; he has to end up in your grab range (and it also depends a bit on the opponent's execution: I think dair is easier to shieldgrab but players seem to be slow on the bair to shine pretty often as well).

Against uair I wouldn't even try it. 9 cooldown frames and the shieldstun is huge. The animation also helps the player's timing for the shine because it's plain to see Fox getting back up.
 

Apasher

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How do I make Fox's aggressive game work vs characters you normally have to play patient against? (Such as Marth, Puff, the ditto, etc)
 

eplb

Smash Rookie
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Dec 15, 2013
Messages
6
Hello fox boards. I'm a (former) marth main switching to fox, and I'd like to get some advices/critics etc. on my fox. However I've only got one set vs a really good (for france) link player. This was my first time playing a link on a serious match, so I didn't know the mu quite well (I guess I still don't), but that actually doesn't matter that much really.

http://fr.twitch.tv/lefrenchmelee/b/487368514 starts at about 43:12.
 

-ShadowPhoenix-

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Hello fox boards,

I've recently given up on being M2k jr. since most people tell me my marth and sheik are garbage compared to my fox. I went all fox at a local yesterday and did surprisingly well. Only problem I had was playing against sheik ( I don't know the matchup since I usually sheik ditto). The biggest problems I noticed were :

1. Not sure how to approach sheik. Most matchups, I let people come to me since I'll laser camp to rack up percent, but can't do that much due to needles. I got a few up-throw to up-air combos, but that was about it aside from stray aerials.

2. I would get sheik off the ledge and wasn't entirely sure how to keep her offstage. At one point, I got her off and went to grab the ledge, but was needled and almost died so I stopped trying it in the set. Should I just back away during the ledge stall to avoid getting gimped/faired or is there a safe way to pressure her?

3. I didn't notice this during the match, but my friend pointed out to me that I should probably be going for waveshine to grab instead of waveshine to upsmash. I was under the impression that waveshine upsmash was guaranteed, but he managed to shield a couple of the upsmashes. Am I just doing it too slow or is it percent based?

4. Not sure on stage strengths for the specific matchup. I got wrecked on dreamland game 1, then I won on stadium which is a no brainer, but wasn't sure what to ban for game 3.


omg this may have been my first serious post since joining.
 

Tero.

Smash Champion
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Jul 18, 2008
Messages
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1. Not sure how to approach sheik. Most matchups, I let people come to me since I'll laser camp to rack up percent, but can't do that much due to needles. I got a few up-throw to up-air combos, but that was about it aside from stray aerials.
How to approach is generally a question that can't be answered because it depends on so many factors.
What I can say however is that you can in fact lase camp a Sheik, be careful to shield her needles.
Commonly used approach options would be (overshoot) nair/dair, grab and running shine.

2. I would get sheik off the ledge and wasn't entirely sure how to keep her offstage. At one point, I got her off and went to grab the ledge, but was needled and almost died so I stopped trying it in the set. Should I just back away during the ledge stall to avoid getting gimped/faired or is there a safe way to pressure her?
It's really easy to shine sheik when she's off stage.
If you don't feel confident or the situation does not allow you to shine her just grab the edge (refresh invincibility with jumps or up B stalls) and then bair her back off (or usmash if she is in kill %).

3. I didn't notice this during the match, but my friend pointed out to me that I should probably be going for waveshine to grab instead of waveshine to upsmash. I was under the impression that waveshine upsmash was guaranteed, but he managed to shield a couple of the upsmashes. Am I just doing it too slow or is it percent based?
Waveshine Usmash is guaranteed, you should only go for it at kill % tho because you have more rewarding punishes from grab/uthrow

4. Not sure on stage strengths for the specific matchup. I got wrecked on dreamland game 1, then I won on stadium which is a no brainer, but wasn't sure what to ban for game 3.

this depends a lot on your playstyle and the playstyle of your opponent.
PS is the obv way to go
DL/FD are very good choices if you need room/play a defensive playstyle
YS is good if you try to preassure her/be in her face and hope for those low % kills
 

4 Aces

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 23, 2007
Messages
892
Hello fox boards. I'm a (former) marth main switching to fox, and I'd like to get some advices/critics etc. on my fox. However I've only got one set vs a really good (for france) link player. This was my first time playing a link on a serious match, so I didn't know the mu quite well (I guess I still don't), but that actually doesn't matter that much really.

http://fr.twitch.tv/lefrenchmelee/b/487368514 starts at about 43:12.
Haven't finished all the matches yet. But after watching the first one and half the second, I don't really get why you don't pressure the edge/side of the stage they're trying to recover from; you're just sitting there double lasering and letting them have a free ride back. Other than that, looks solid.
 

Charlesz

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 6, 2007
Messages
2,043
I have some question regarding attacking out of a shield drop with fox.
Image this situation:
Fox is on a platform
Holding shield (no direction, just holding it)
Marth Utilts your shield, you are in shield hit stun, what do you do from here (in order to shield drop as fast as possible and possible get a backair)?

I'm looking for something described at 4:10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQA7vbttZkQ
 

4 Aces

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 23, 2007
Messages
892
I have some question regarding attacking out of a shield drop with fox.
Image this situation:
Fox is on a platform
Holding shield (no direction, just holding it)
Marth Utilts your shield, you are in shield hit stun, what do you do from here (in order to shield drop as fast as possible and possible get a backair)?

I'm looking for something described at 4:10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQA7vbttZkQ
Move your control stick downward like you normally would for the shield drop (don't do it too fast though or else you'll spot dodge), then roll your stick to the back air position and hit A. Or just use the C-Stick and get the Bair.
 

Charlesz

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 6, 2007
Messages
2,043
Move your control stick downward like you normally would for the shield drop (don't do it too fast though or else you'll spot dodge), then roll your stick to the back air position and hit A. Or just use the C-Stick and get the Bair.
Do I have to pre emptively predict the u tilt or can I do it after it hits my shield?
 

BTmoney

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Anyone know how big and which button has the buffer when you're jumping OOS from shield stun (that's not the c-stick)?

I know there's c-stick buffering I already use that for everything except for sine oos because that's super uncomfortable.
I believe there's a 3 frame buffer when you use the jump button but I can't remember, it might be the analog stick. And it might not be 3 frames. anyone know?

Do I have to pre emptively predict the u tilt or can I do it after it hits my shield?
After it hits your shield because you have to shield the attack first. And it's worth mentioning that shield drops can be buffered in shield stun it's pretty small but it only helps that you can buffer it. So you can input it slightly early and still get it.

But you also might want to drop first because once Marths drop their platform true combo (and you block a hit) they like to wait and try to get you to do something OOS or jump waveland->grab tomahawk you so just consider that. If he hit's your shield with a move (uair/utilt) in the typical platform situation you can always shield drop punish it.
 

Bones0

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Do I have to pre emptively predict the u tilt or can I do it after it hits my shield?
You can react.

Anyone know how big and which button has the buffer when you're jumping OOS from shield stun (that's not the c-stick)?

I know there's c-stick buffering I already use that for everything except for sine oos because that's super uncomfortable.
I believe there's a 3 frame buffer when you use the jump button but I can't remember, it might be the analog stick. And it might not be 3 frames. anyone know?
Control stick buffers for 3 frames. X/Y don't buffer at all.
 

KirbyKaze

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How do I make Fox's aggressive game work vs characters you normally have to play patient against? (Such as Marth, Puff, the ditto, etc)
Fox's combat is, for the most part, neither strictly aggressive nor exclusively defensive. It's a hybrid, because dash dancing inherently moves you towards (aggression) and away (baiting / defense) at certain points during the motion. What makes dash dancing so powerful is the high amount of control you have over how much "towards" or "away" you apply to the motion, and how you can change this to match the situation you're presented with.
 

Stijn

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Sep 7, 2012
Messages
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the Netherlands
sup guys, can you rate my Fox?
I think some of the mistakes i made was staying in my shield, he was lasering and he shinegrabbed me. And when he was on the ledge i wanted to punish him from the platform, he illusion'd me.
Can some people maybe tell me the other mistakes? or maybe tell me what i did good?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xH4lDGR5nCg
 

All4G0dsGl0ry

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Mar 31, 2013
Messages
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does anyone know (doubt it) or have a quick way of finding out the tempo for perfect shield pressure between shine and nair/bair? as in, how fast after shine do i need to jump.
 

Heero Yuy

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Is FoD a bad stage for Fox? My friend took my there against his Sheik and he wrecked me. In another match I took another friend there with Marth and I wrecked his Fox.
 

dRevan64

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Dec 1, 2010
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Is FoD a bad stage for Fox? My friend took my there against his Sheik and he wrecked me. In another match I took another friend there with Marth and I wrecked his Fox.
High ceiling and the dumb awful platforms can screw up your tech skill if you're not careful. It's definitely better for very grounded characters like sheik or marth.
 

atangerine

Smash Cadet
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Apr 23, 2013
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Northville, Michigan
Is FoD a bad stage for Fox? My friend took my there against his Sheik and he wrecked me. In another match I took another friend there with Marth and I wrecked his Fox.
FoD is one of Sheik's best stages. The lower platforms can also help Marth with his tipper.

The moving platforms can often mess up Fox's movement. Also, the high ceiling can prevent uair kills.
 

SAUS

Smash Ace
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Aug 20, 2008
Messages
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Ottawa
sup guys, can you rate my Fox?
I think some of the mistakes i made was staying in my shield, he was lasering and he shinegrabbed me. And when he was on the ledge i wanted to punish him from the platform, he illusion'd me.
Can some people maybe tell me the other mistakes? or maybe tell me what i did good?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xH4lDGR5nCg
I feel like you dash dance and do nice baiting tactics (like that sort of vertical dash dance on the platforms), but then you go in at the wrong time or when you just shouldn't. For example, at about 4:47-4:51, you dash dance a bit and then do a full hop nair (not sure if it was meant to be a short hop or not). Either way, in that position, the falco can get free hits on you. There's not a TON of this happening, but there is a decent amount of it. I think it happens a lot in game 3. Whether or not it works on this opponent, I don't think it's a good idea to approach like this - move around a bit to mess them up, but then go in kind of blind hoping to surprise them. You want to take advantage of their mistakes after they make them than to try to do things that may invoke mistakes from them that aren't actually safe.

You shielded a bit too much a few times, but it wasn't so much that it is super bad. Just a little bit more practice to find the comfortable ways to avoid those situations.

I think you tried to punish out of shield a bit too much when you couldn't. Falco/fox shield pressure is tough to deal with, and a lot of the time the only way out is to just run away rather than punish them.

Also, is this PAL version? I noticed you never got any upsmash kills and was wondering what's up. It kills easily at like 90, but I know it is nerfed in PAL. If it is PAL, is upsmash not as useful? If it is not PAL, upsmash more, and don't counterpick to dreamland as fox. The high ceiling makes it garbage for fox. I think against falco, FD and pokemon stadium are good choices.

EDIT
I just want to point out that I don't really play fox much and my advice could be a little off. If I said something incorrect, if someone could let me know that would be great.
 

Pengie

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
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Atlanta, GA
sup guys, can you rate my Fox?
I think some of the mistakes i made was staying in my shield, he was lasering and he shinegrabbed me. And when he was on the ledge i wanted to punish him from the platform, he illusion'd me.
Can some people maybe tell me the other mistakes? or maybe tell me what i did good?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xH4lDGR5nCg
One of the big things that I noticed was that your edgeguarding was pretty weak. It looked like you were only trying to predict which recovery option he was going to choose instead of either reacting to it, or covering multiple options at once. Because of this you end up pretty far on stage in situations where he was up bing super close and you should have been able to shine him and get the kill. If you're not particularly comfortable with reacting for whatever reason, some things you could do to cover lots of options at once are things like immediately forward smashing once you knock him off of the stage; this covers an immediate side b and also gives you enough time to catch delayed side bs with something like a sh nair and it lets you cover most of their up b options by grabbing the ledge. Another good way to cover lots of options is to just grab the ledge. I didn't see it that often and it really forces falco into a tough spot where his only "safe" are all still pretty manageable.

Another thing that stood out is that a lot of the time you were fighting too far away from Falco for what you wanted to do to work. A good example of this is all of the FJ nairs that just went over his head. It looked like if you did these from a bit closer, most of them would have stuffed his options and a few of them would have probably gotten up tilted, but once you notice that that's happening you can start baiting out the up tilts and punishing them.

Other than that I think you did a pretty good job of dealing with lasers through various means (FJing, doing something as soon as you got hit to stuff him getting over zealous, etc.), but you also let yourself get stuck in your shield a bit. Something that you could do to alleviate this is to WD backwards OoS after shielding a laser because he was being pretty aggressive after shooting them, so he'd shoot the laser and approach and then his approach would whiff because of your WD letting you grab him or something.
 

Heero Yuy

#sweg
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Can someone sum up Fox's neutral game? I could understand Falco's because his lasers made life easier, but Fox I know has to be played differently.
 

Bones0

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Jarrettsville, MD
does anyone know (doubt it) or have a quick way of finding out the tempo for perfect shield pressure between shine and nair/bair? as in, how fast after shine do i need to jump.
There's no such thing as perfect shield pressure. Each timing variation has its own pros and cons. Ultimately, shield pressure isn't very safe for more than a single aerial-shine-aerial sequence. You want to JC shine on the first frame after hitlag. Not sure how many frames of hitlag it has, but you should just be able to tell by the animation if you're doing it quickly. You should barely see the bright hexagon. Go into Training Mode and try doing it asap on slower speeds. When you get the jump the first frame after shine ends (shine hits frame 1 and has 2 frames of cooldown), you'll see that the animation is a lot less noticeable because the hexagons are smaller on frames 2 and 3 of shine than on frames it can reflect (4+).

Can someone sum up Fox's neutral game? I could understand Falco's because his lasers made life easier, but Fox I know has to be played differently.
Dashdance.
 

Medz!

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
290
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Mesa,AZ
I have some question regarding attacking out of a shield drop with fox.
Image this situation:
Fox is on a platform
Holding shield (no direction, just holding it)
Marth Utilts your shield, you are in shield hit stun, what do you do from here (in order to shield drop as fast as possible and possible get a backair)?

I'm looking for something described at 4:10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQA7vbttZkQ
i shield drop in real sets, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqavqWDLjdk i do it alot in that set. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V5AAjjixOA i get a shield drop bair to nair to up air in that first game even tho i get bodied regardless.
 

l will find peace

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 5, 2013
Messages
52
silent wolf is becoming a god.

does anyone here know the formula for hitlag? not strictly fox relatd, but i read it once somewhere on smashboards and thought it was = ceiling ((4/7) * damage), or something like that.

figured someone like kk would know it, if not some other random

edit: @otto, how have you been doing vs s2j lately?
 

Stijn

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 7, 2012
Messages
61
Location
the Netherlands
Also, is this PAL version? I noticed you never got any upsmash kills and was wondering what's up. It kills easily at like 90, but I know it is nerfed in PAL. If it is PAL, is upsmash not as useful? If it is not PAL, upsmash more, and don't counterpick to dreamland as fox. The high ceiling makes it garbage for fox. I think against falco, FD and pokemon stadium are good choices.

EDIT
I just want to point out that I don't really play fox much and my advice could be a little off. If I said something incorrect, if someone could let me know that would be great.
Yes, this is PAL. USmash isn't really a move I use too often, especially not against Falco and such. Its indeed way weaker in PAL. And, in this tournament PS and FD were not legal stages. Holland is the only country in the world doing this, and I think it is a horrible decision to play without these stages.
 
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