Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Pengie]

SHFFLing at Marth is moving you right inside his grab range just as well, and yet people still do it all the time.
Putting yourself in the situation where you can threating Marth with your shine is about the same distance as a SHFFLed aerial from a dash jump would take you. He can't react to neither the dash jump nor the dash in. So as soon as you're at that spot, you're threatening him.

Just play around with runup shine. It obviously has a different set of counters and payoffs than what a SHFFL (or whatever) would have, but you can't just discard it as worthless.

I didn't say it was worthless, I just said that I didn't think it was particularly good. And SHFFLing something like a nair is pretty different because when you nair at Marth you have an active hitbox as you're approaching him so entering his grab range isn't as scary because you can hit his grab start up (note: marth can still grab you if he does it preemptively enough) . There's also a bunch of different air control things you can do a SHFFL'd aerial so you can nair at them from different ranges which makes it harder to tell when it's actually coming.

With running shine though, once you run into the range where Marth can directly hit you with something, which you'd have to do if you want to actually hit him with shine, you're opening yourself up to get grabbed before you even get to him. M2K in particular is the amazing at doing this; if you watch his Marth vs. Fox games, he grabs people trying to run directly at him all the time. I'd imagine that they were also trying to do running shines, but you never see it because he grabs them before they get a chance to do it. Stuff like that is what I think should be avoided when fighting Marth because you're risking giving him a free grab, which IMO is about the worst thing that could happen in that match up.

 

[Purpletuce]

I think you used dash attack more than I've ever seen before as well. . .

 

[Silent Wolf]

Most of the running shines that you got were whiff punishes on him swinging in bad spots, which is really good because shining Marth means you get to do whatever you want to him and whiff punishing Marth is pretty free. So in those situations, yeah, I can see why running shine is super useful. I was talking more about in a strictly neutral sense where neither of you has really committed to anything. In those situations, running shine involves running directly into Marth's grab range which is way too big of a risk to take IMO. As far as the escape options, if you're going to put yourself into a position where you can directly threaten Marth with your shine, your WD back probably isn't gonna get you out of his grab range quickly enough and it definitely isn't getting you out of his sword's range so if their reactions are any good I think it's a really big risk to take. As for jumping, why would you willingly put yourself into that guessing game against Marth? It's so lopsided in his favor that I can't really see much a reason for it, especially when there are safer ways to go about getting Marth to swing at you.

I was baiting him into doing **** with dd and punishing. In either scenario, its a very useful tool. Trust me. If you're getting punished from it, you're just not using it right and prob not mixing it up right

Edit: that made it sound like its unpunishable lol. Its def beatable, but it def has a lot of places where its useful in the n game. Even if it wasn't that great, you get a lot of leverage from them having to be aware of a whole other option.

 

[Pengie]

I was baiting him into doing **** with dd and punishing. In either scenario, its a very useful tool. Trust me. If you're getting punished from it, you're just not using it right and prob not mixing it up right

Edit: that made it sound like its unpunishable lol. Its def beatable, but it def has a lot of places where its useful in the n game. Even if it wasn't that great, you get a lot of leverage from them having to be aware of a whole other option.

Well the big thing that I was getting at was that they were whiff punishes, so you could have just as easily whiff punished with something like a grab or a drill and the reason you got the hit was less because of the running shine and more because of the baits. In most of those situations though, shining was really good because of how bad of a situation it left Marth (offstage or backed up to the ledge). I guess the point that I'm getting at though is that if you do it against a Marth that's really confident about standing their ground and playing footsies like M2K and PP, more often than not you're gonna end up in bad situations and when you do it against other Marths you'll probably **** them because they'll do **** like jump, run away, and swing too slowly all of which running shine blows up pretty hard. But yeah, I agree that it has it's place, particularly given how most Marth players play the character currently. I just also think that there are certain things that the really good players do with Marth that make it a huge risk to take and not really worth it against them in particular.

 

[Silent Wolf]

You just need to know when to do it. Anything can be bad if you're bad lol.

also, running shine is what enables you to punish most of the stuff hes going to do. grab usually isnt fast enough, especially not to the point where you can rely on it. even when using running shine, its very difficult to reliably be able to punish things like dtilt in the n game.

and those werent "whiff punishes" he was doing, that was me baiting him into doing **** with dash dance so i could use running shine. if yo wouldve just understood my first couple posts you could have saved yourself some time and not have had to write a bunch of nooby **** lol

plus, i dont think blacktician or w/e is playing marths like pp or m2k.. if youre playing people like them, then its gonna take a lot of skill to make anything decent work lol.

 

[Charlesz]

hey silent wolf what do you link about running shine vs link or sheik.

 

[Silent Wolf]

its more situational vs sheik than vs marth since shes not as ground-game oriented in the neutral game. there are places where it can work, like taking advantage of her landing or very sparingly in the neutral game (usually not as a first read). regardless of its lack of intrinsic potential vs sheik in regards to heavy punishes (youll prob often catch her in the air and not gain a real punish, but a situational advantage), its still good to force your opponent to be weary of as many things as possible so its not as easy for them to capitalize.

im sure it has its place vs link too. idk i dont play link and dont feel like theory crafting

 

[Bones0]

There's no reason not to spam tech skill on Link's shield, so idk why you would bother with much running shine.

Also, I think grounded shines out of dashes are worth learning. It makes your overall running shine game much more flexible since you don't have to worry about how long you've been dashing/running for in order to shine. You can just jump into it and still get the waveshine punish.

 

[Puca Readabook]

You can just jump into it and still get the waveshine punish.

wait so you're telling me i can JC the start up frames of dash into a shine right?

 

[Bones0]

wait so you're telling me i can JC the start up frames of dash into a shine right?

Yeah. It's like JCing a grab, but you do it on the first airborne frame instead of during jumpsquat because shine will land you back on the ground as long as you time it right.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

can fox do an invincible stall with his firefox
im talking about that height where you release than upb on the same height as the ledge -> grab again

 

[g_f]

I have a couple of questions about aerial interaction/move priority. I've been told that, in air, the last one to attack wins the trade; yet I've also read that NAirs usually beat other aerials (this is, irrespectively of the previous rule?), though I've also been told that Fox will lose his aerial trades with Marth and Peach (that is, irrespectively both of rule #1 and rule #2?). Finally, it appears to be "common knowledge" that Sheik is weak in the air; yet, won't her aerials beat Fox's Nair in case Fox is the first one to throw out his aerial attack? As you can see I was exposed to quite a bit of contradictory information, and thus I'd like some precise clarification.

The second question is about the aerial/ground attacks(/special attacks used in air) interaction. Does Shine beat ANY aerial attack? Is it so only because of the invincibility frame? I thought so, yet I've had my sh Nair "outprioritized" by Falcon's Jab (not even the Gentleman, and Falcon didn't take the damage; I plainly lost the trade with what I thought was a much weaker move). On the other hand, I've noticed much stronger moves than Jab or Shine (i.e. UTilt, USmash from Fox) aren't always canceling out the aerials, and you trade damage. Does it happen because you are the second one to attack? The first one? A weaker hitbox of the ground attack is connecting with the aerial? Help needed

 

[Bones0]

can fox do an invincible stall with his firefox
im talking about that height where you release than upb on the same height as the ledge -> grab again

Yes.

I have a couple of questions about aerial interaction/move priority. I've been told that, in air, the last one to attack wins the trade; yet I've also read that NAirs usually beat other aerials (this is, irrespectively of the previous rule?), though I've also been told that Fox will lose his aerial trades with Marth and Peach (that is, irrespectively both of rule #1 and rule #2?). Finally, it appears to be "common knowledge" that Sheik is weak in the air; yet, won't her aerials beat Fox's Nair in case Fox is the first one to throw out his aerial attack? As you can see I was exposed to quite a bit of contradictory information, and thus I'd like some precise clarification.

The second question is about the aerial/ground attacks(/special attacks used in air) interaction. Does Shine beat ANY aerial attack? Is it so only because of the invincibility frame? I thought so, yet I've had my sh Nair "outprioritized" by Falcon's Jab (not even the Gentleman, and Falcon didn't take the damage; I plainly lost the trade with what I thought was a much weaker move). On the other hand, I've noticed much stronger moves than Jab or Shine (i.e. UTilt, USmash from Fox) aren't always canceling out the aerials, and you trade damage. Does it happen because you are the second one to attack? The first one? A weaker hitbox of the ground attack is connecting with the aerial? Help needed

An attack hits when a move's hitbox overlaps with a character's hurtbox. If two characters aerial each other in such a way that both of their hitboxes collide with the opponent's hurtbox on the same frame, they will trade. Ground moves clank when they are within a certain percent range, and if one move is significantly stronger than the other, then it simply goes through it (you have probably fsmashed through someone's GUA so that you could see the little circle appear showing that their attack hit your attack, but wasn't strong enough to clank).

"Priority" refers to the amount of space between the edge of a move's hitbox and the edge of the character's hurtbox. Marth's fsmash has a lot of priority because there is a huge length of hitbox before you finally get to his arm, which is a hurtbox. The priority of Fox's nair is really small because there is only a thin sliver of hitbox before you reach his hurtbox. That's why it's so easy for characters to trade with Fox's nair if you are coming down on top of them. It's also worth pointing out that hitboxes drag behind your movement. If you are FFing towards the ground, you will have less priority below you because your nair's hitbox is essentially a frame behind your actual movement. If you do a rising nair, you will have slightly more priority from below. This is all understood much more easily when you look through the hitbox and frame data thread (for Fox as well as other characters).

The timing of moves is relevant, but only in the sense that moves have different priority at different points in the move's animation. If you look at the GIF of Jigglypuff's bair, she has only a little bit of priority on the first frame or so that the hitbox is out, but the later half of the hitbox is MUCH more disjointed from her hurtbox than before. This means one Jiggs could out-bair another without trading by delaying his bair slightly from the opponent's and spacing at max distance to ensure both bairs don't collide with both hurtboxes on the same frame and trade.

 

[l will find peace]

There's no reason not to spam tech skill on Link's shield, so idk why you would bother with much running shine.

running shine is a way to break neutral, spamming tech skill on someones shield is not.

 

[Bones0]

running shine is a way to break neutral, spamming tech skill on someones shield is not.

The only reason SHFFLing isn't a preferable way of breaking neutral is because lots of characters have good CC/DD/WD grabs. Link is too slow to avoid SHFFLs and certainly can't grab them. If he's going to stop approaches, it's going to be by throwing out a jab or some other attack which is going to hit you whether you use running shine or SHFFLs. I think SHFFLs are much more flexible in terms of being unpredictable, and they also yield better punishes when they connect. I just can't think of really good reason to use running shine vs. Link, but if you want to go for it. It's still Link either way.

 

[l will find peace]

if you equate shffling in neutral to spamming tech skill on someone shield, then lol

Hey guys, would anyone be willing to give me some advice on my recent set with Hungrybox? Any and all advice would be appreciated

If you don't want to take the time to watch carefully and give advice, even general comments/opinions (what you liked or didn't like etc) would be awesome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLZnHe_jbkE

hmmmmmmmmm

match 1:

i think the reason you lost was because he is a better player than you. he shut down your movement at important times and baited out a lot of his openings.

so, you seemed to vary between

1) lasering to make him do stuff

2) trying to control space with dash dancing and doing fox movement near center stage to make him do stuff

3) playing vertical-op-fox-bair games

4) trying to kick him

5) doing dumb tech skill/weirdly going to the ledge and getting ****ed for it


In general, think the main reason that he better-playered you and outbaited you was becuase you dont play as close to him as other top players do. in my understanding of the matchup, puff gets outspeeded on the ground, and she loses if you stay under her because her vertical aerial mobility is bad. i know that you have success vs other puffs just playing hit and run, doing different things in neutral, and then grabbing them at 55 percent, but that is because you are a better player (IMO). just the fact that you got hit so often when trying to punish whiffs (combined with the fact that mango and pp play close to her) suggests that maybe you could try a different approach: staying closer to her when she wants to jump around, and using shield to get hits. approaching with shield and using it when your under her is just where you win, because wd oos and fullhop nairing her are too good.

modular neutral game option 1):

he hit you out of lasers on 3rd stock where he took you from 0 - ~70. as far as i can tell, all he was doing while you were lasering was setting up baits and conditioning for things. you didnt seem to commit to lasering really hard and used them to try and force her to do things (usually those things ended up being baits). i dont know how lasering is supposed to work on battlefield either, because lasering from an ideal position (inner side of a platform) is still very close to her, and she can threaten your space without committing to anything.

2)

fox is fast, and cool. and has a good dash dance. but he still baited you into doing things even in your dash dance, possibly because you underestimated puffs aerial mobility.


3)

this really didnt work. you should have probably lost your first stock if hbox didnt drop the punish after he baited your movement at about 20 seconds (he seemed to drop a lot of stuff that he doesnt usually drop this tournament imo). i dont really know what the point of this is because being on the ground is better overall vs her unless youre in the process of trying to kick her.

4)

kicking puff is good

5)

like, jumping onto the edge at 50 seconds in after you usmash her and let her get back to the ground freely. trying to shield drop after you took first stock and dying for it. going to the ledge after you took her second stock and getting hit for free. at 1:20, you full hop drill her in the air instead of nairing her (unless you were trying to bair with the cstick and daired by accident? it looked like being flashy for no reason to me.. not sure about this); this put her at 47 percent instead of at the 53 percent that a nair would have put her, which is a biiiiiig difference.


this is all mostly negative, but you really played well. the main problem is that you played the matchup as if it were vs a player that you were better than and who wouldnt bait you (maybe cause you dont play against better players than yourself very often). hbox also played the matchup well and read a lot of stuff you were doing. but you mixed up recovery well and punished really hard with what you had. you also lost patience and started trying to make pretty hard reads during the end, which didnt work out and which you wont do next time....

i just think its a lot better to play the matchup the way that mango does. instead of threatening her ground game and her landing, threaten her ground game, her landing, AND move yourself under her at angles so that you can threaten a large portion of her aerial game. im sure youve thought about this though, but its definitely worth revisiting imo.

im pretty bad at this game, but i hope this makes you think and reinforces your idea of the matchup over another opinion (at the very least). oh yea, and sorry for the bad grammar/formatting as well......

edit: about lasering: i think lasering can work, its just that he realized that you werent preferring to be under him like mango and mew2king do (or any hypothetical fox trying to be in the best position). they can laser on small stages because if he jumps toward them, they run under him immediately and have tons of options. your lasering wasnt geared toward making him leave the ground, and i feel like a foxes lasering should in that matchup (percent is nice too).

i made this edit after watching http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip4EFSfW60k. its crazy to me how much of the matchup mew2king has ripped from mango, but he plays it precisely and without all the mango stuff.

 

[Druggedfox]

Thanks for the advice, I'll take that all into account and I definitely found a lot of it useful . I obviously think being under puff is good, but you're right that I bias towards a ground based game without transitioning into being under her as much as I could. That's probably the biggest take away and I should focus on a bit more. Definitely don't apologize for anything, and it doesn't matter if you're good or bad at the game. I really appreciate the advice, and I'll try to work on it so I can beat him next time!

You're also right that I haven't played someone better in quite a while. It's been two years since I went to a tournament and I think one of the biggest factors was not executing my ideas cleanly, and not being used to playing an S tier player.

I'll try playing closer to him as well, I think that's really insightful. I probably miss out on a lot of potential punishes and pressure by playing too far away at times.

Just to clarify:

The drill I did was intentional, and if you notice I baited him into attacking my shield immediately after the drill but I messed up the shield drop bair punish because I drifted incorrectly. I sacrificed a bit of % to get a potential reset (And if the bair had hit I would have gotten another follow up on top of it, sacrificing 6% to get around 30% more). Also when you reset someone successfully I've found that the chance of getting the next first hit is way higher since you're generally in their head or have good intuition for what they want to do. I was hoping to get a kill off the sequence, but it didn't pan out.

I think lasering in general/in most matchups isn't actually beneficial, and I prefer to maintain my stage positioning and not take any risks by lasering when they're too close. Puff is the only matchup where I think lasering *strictly* to get damage is worth it.

I don't think trying to shield drop in between stocks is "dumb tech skill". Light shielding on a platform makes you pretty much unhittable, and shield dropping is fast enough vertically that puff can't actually realistically punish. I think messing up tech skill got me ****ed for sure, but I don't think something like relying on shield dropping or ledgedashing is a bad idea.

I think mew2king is terrible at the puff matchup but has a really good read on hungrybox.

 

[Purpletuce]

I think the point of lasering in the puff MU is to let the puff know they have to come to you, and not to build percent at all. It is also away for you to answer puff at the ledge, by you maintaining stage control and shooting at her. Speaking from more of a Puff perspective than a Fox one, lasering definitely gets in the victim's head.

Also, Fox shield drop vs Puff is really good. Puff has a hard time covering the center stage if you're trying to come down from that magical top platform.

 

[BTmoney]

I think mew2king is terrible at the puff matchup but has a really good read on hungrybox.

You think so? He goes Fox vs every other Puff and wins handily (mostly cause he's just better). And the new m2k wrecks hbox now, I'm not sure what about TBH3 and Rom 6 sets (4 total) point to him being terrible vs puff

Not to mention even before this he would have decent games vs Hbox as Fox beating him occasionally in games but never in sets

 

[dRevan64]

You think so? He goes Fox vs every other Puff and wins handily (mostly cause he's just better). And the new m2k wrecks hbox now, I'm not sure what about TBH3 and Rom 6 sets (4 total) point to him being terrible vs puff

Not to mention even before this he would have decent games vs Hbox as Fox beating him occasionally in games but never in sets

Yeah, calling m2k terrible at the puff matchup when there is 1 puff who threatens him and he's started beating recently seems pretty inaccurate.

 

[Loket]

I need some help with the neutral game in the falco matchup.
What openings should I look for?
Whats the best way to deal with lasers, wavedashing in and out of shield or platformcamp?
I also dont know how to incorporate fullhops into my game (no specific matchup) but it seems like a useful tool when watching matches on youtube, any tips on that?

 

[Deleted member]

m2k is definitely soft to jpuff and falco *compared to other MUs*

 

[l will find peace]

Just to clarify:

The drill I did was intentional, and if you notice I baited him into attacking my shield immediately after the drill but I messed up the shield drop bair punish because I drifted incorrectly. I sacrificed a bit of % to get a potential reset (And if the bair had hit I would have gotten another follow up on top of it, sacrificing 6% to get around 30% more). Also when you reset someone successfully I've found that the chance of getting the next first hit is way higher since you're generally in their head or have good intuition for what they want to do. I was hoping to get a kill off the sequence, but it didn't pan out.

I think lasering in general/in most matchups isn't actually beneficial, and I prefer to maintain my stage positioning and not take any risks by lasering when they're too close. Puff is the only matchup where I think lasering *strictly* to get damage is worth it.

I don't think trying to shield drop in between stocks is "dumb tech skill". Light shielding on a platform makes you pretty much unhittable, and shield dropping is fast enough vertically that puff can't actually realistically punish. I think messing up tech skill got me ****ed for sure, but I don't think something like relying on shield dropping or ledgedashing is a bad idea.

@ tech skill comment: i meant tech skill dumbly = something difficult to execute that turned out badly; not that light shielding or shield dropping are bad at all.

and @ the drill and sequence following: i can definitely see (after you explained it, lol) what you were trying to do. i guess i just see the puff matchup as kicking her until a percent where you can
1) uthrow air in the low to mid 50's (which to me seems like the best option far and away).
2) bair her somewhere between 80-150, depending on stage and DI
3) some usmash variation (jab usmash, cc, reading her landing, or oos [maybe])

so... once you get to 53, shouldnt you just be looking to force her to land badly? if she doesnt want to land, you can kick her like 2 more times and still have uthrow->uair combo easily. thats just how i see the matchup though, and i dont know how far away from formulaic play you can get vs puff, because killing her does rely on defined setups in defined windows of time. if you get her over 90%, then if you dont have a perfect uthrow uair it seems to just get kind of hard. but maybe this is too linear?

i know that uthrow uair combos over 100% according to some canadians who posted in here a whiiiiiiile ago, so going for 40-50 extra percent in total wouldnt have a downside if you can consistently do the combo perfectly. idk.

Speaking from more of a Puff perspective than a Fox one, lasering definitely gets in the victim's head.

maybe if theyre a scrublet

 

[Purpletuce]

I think lasering to make puff think they have to approach is a thing accross all skill levels. . . I don't know what you think high level puffs can do in the situation I described, but if puff is at the ledge and not committed to something, keeping stage control and lasering isn't really punishable. The puff just has to get in your space (what you're wanting)

 

[Druggedfox]

M2k is beating hbox because he studied his habits, thats how he learns to beat everyone. He even said, on a video or stream somewhere, that he sat down and actually studied his videos and thats been the only difference. He hasn't changed how he played the matchup fundamentally from back when he used to lose to hbox. He still blatnatly runs away and lasers, then randomly runs in with upsmash/aerial. This time around he studied hbox's habits for when he likes to jump and when he likes to pull back vs drift forward, so he calls him out on it a lot harder.

M2k's puff problem is the same as always, he just no longer has a hungrybox problem.

Also, who cares if he beats every other puff. There's literally not a single puff worth mentioning close to his skill level so its pretty pointless to talk about. Lots of people can beat every puff besides hbox, thats not saying much.

 

[BTmoney]

this is all hearsay but m2k said himself he studied and remolded his puff game after mango (I'm not sure what you're watching if you don't see how post TBH3 m2k implements a lot of run up shield/wd oos al-a mango and going for uair reads. He wasn't doing that before. He's also a bit less laser camping reliant and I think saying random aerial/usmash is a bit discrediting. He also got a lot more comfortable on the ledge and in the corner as fox vs puff. It looks like he's just playing the MU the way you're supposed to.) I'm sure m2k studying hbox was also beneficial.

Mango also said he helped m2k get better at it or at (talking or coaching to some capacity, he was talking about it on the miom stream a while ago)
This is all nitpicky gossip but I think he got a lot better lol. And if you beat every puff and you beat hbox, badly, then I don't see a puff problem. But we'll see what the future has to say since ultimately that's what's right.

I agree with mow though that flacco and puff are probably m2k's worst MUs though.

 

[Vegard]

M2k is beating hbox because he studied his habits, thats how he learns to beat everyone. He even said, on a video or stream somewhere, that he sat down and actually studied his videos and thats been the only difference. He hasn't changed how he played the matchup fundamentally from back when he used to lose to hbox. He still blatnatly runs away and lasers, then randomly runs in with upsmash/aerial. This time around he studied hbox's habits for when he likes to jump and when he likes to pull back vs drift forward, so he calls him out on it a lot harder.

M2k's puff problem is the same as always, he just no longer has a hungrybox problem.

Also, who cares if he beats every other puff. There's literally not a single puff worth mentioning close to his skill level so its pretty pointless to talk about. Lots of people can beat every puff besides hbox, thats not saying much.

Nah nah nah, that is definitely not true!

He studied Mango's analysis of m2k's matches vs hungrybox, in addition to watch the past sets vs hungrybox. Most of the upsmashes he got vs Hungrybox was wavedash out of shield counter approaches to the classic hbox bair approach. So he did in fact play the match up a lot better. Not only that, but he also stated that he doesn't really study other people's playstyle, but PP does it a lot.

 

[Silent Wolf]

When m2k runs away and lasers, then runs in with usmash its not random lol. Its a common trick; making it it look like you're going to be far away, then punishing as soon as you think they're going to approach. There's a reason he hits hbox with it like every time lol. You can't just pick out little things that seem weak and deem his whole game bad.

And saying his puff game is bad is just stupid, especially when he'd 0wn any puff on the panet. Basically what you're saying is, "if there was another puff as good as hbox, m2k would have to study it to beat it." Saying someone is bad at something when you're much worse is also kind of stupid.

 

[Druggedfox]

1) Whether or not m2k is good at something is 100% unrelated to whether or not I'm good at something.
2) In any competitive field where there are judges (at a professional level), the judges are worse than the performers yet they're still expected to accurately critique the performance.
3) I am aware that this is a common trick, but if you watch past m2k videos he tries the exact same trick and whiffs a lot of his upsmashes. Objectively speaking, he is employing the same tactic, and through watching their past sets its easy to see that its not a consistent, matchup based solution to dealing with puff. It's useful situationally. If it didn't work for 2-3 years and suddenly it works at the most recent 2 tournaments or so an intelligent player will stop and go "Hmm... he's doing the exact same thing...but suddenly its working. I wonder why!" The answer is that he learned hbox's habits. If he truly learned the matchup, he wouldn't be employing the same basic tactics and strategies.
4) Yes, he does use shield more and he paid attention to stuff mango did, but have you actually seen how he approaches the matchup? To say that he approaches it like mango would be hilariously wrong. He stole like 1-2 tactics mango uses, learned some player specific habits, and voila he can beat hbox in a matchup thats in his character's favor. Yes, I am saying that if there was another jigglypuff on hungrybox's level he'd have to study the player specific habits to beat them, exactly.
5) I can "own every puff on the planet" except hungrybox, who is a better player than me. Oh no, I lost to a better player, obviously that means my understanding of the matchup is skewed. If there were a jigglypuff player clearly on a higher level than m2k, he would lose to it too, then suddenly people wouldn't talk about him being good at the matchup.
6) If someone could own any puff on the planet as fox in 2006, they still might be terrible at the matchup by today's standards. If I said that in 2006, the 2006 silent wolf would have said I'm being stupid because he can beat any puff on the planet. Skip forward 8 years and watch that same fox try to play hungrybox and get 3 stocked, suddenly it looks like the fox sucks at the matchup. Matchups are ABSOLUTE, not relative. The characters in the game will never change, and there already exists a most correct way to play the matchup. We may not have discovered it yet, but it exists and it will never change (unless the actual game itself gets edited). I don't think mew2king plays the matchup well, and I can explain what he does poorly very easily. On the other hand, everyone who claims he is good at the matchup just say things like "well he beats hungrybox, so he must be good" or "he copied mango, and mango's good at the matchup!". Not a single one of those responses is actually based on understanding the jigglypuff vs fox matchup, they're just arbitrary statements based on looking at an end result or some stray information.

 

[Silent Wolf]

1) Whether or not m2k is good at something is 100% unrelated to whether or not I'm good at something.
2) In any competitive field where there are judges (at a professional level), the judges are worse than the performers yet they're still expected to accurately critique the performance.
3) I am aware that this is a common trick, but if you watch past m2k videos he tries the exact same trick and whiffs a lot of his upsmashes. Objectively speaking, he is employing the same tactic, and through watching their past sets its easy to see that its not a consistent, matchup based solution to dealing with puff. It's useful situationally. If it didn't work for 2-3 years and suddenly it works at the most recent 2 tournaments or so an intelligent player will stop and go "Hmm... he's doing the exact same thing...but suddenly its working. I wonder why!" The answer is that he learned hbox's habits. If he truly learned the matchup, he wouldn't be employing the same basic tactics and strategies.
4) Yes, he does use shield more and he paid attention to stuff mango did, but have you actually seen how he approaches the matchup? To say that he approaches it like mango would be hilariously wrong. He stole like 1-2 tactics mango uses, learned some player specific habits, and voila he can beat hbox in a matchup thats in his character's favor. Yes, I am saying that if there was another jigglypuff on hungrybox's level he'd have to study the player specific habits to beat them, exactly.
5) I can "own every puff on the planet" except hungrybox, who is a better player than me. Oh no, I lost to a better player, obviously that means my understanding of the matchup is skewed. If there were a jigglypuff player clearly on a higher level than m2k, he would lose to it too, then suddenly people wouldn't talk about him being good at the matchup.
6) If someone could own any puff on the planet as fox in 2006, they still might be terrible at the matchup by today's standards. If I said that in 2006, the 2006 silent wolf would have said I'm being stupid because he can beat any puff on the planet. Skip forward 8 years and watch that same fox try to play hungrybox and get 3 stocked, suddenly it looks like the fox sucks at the matchup. Matchups are ABSOLUTE, not relative. The characters in the game will never change, and there already exists a most correct way to play the matchup. We may not have discovered it yet, but it exists and it will never change (unless the actual game itself gets edited). I don't think mew2king plays the matchup well, and I can explain what he does poorly very easily. On the other hand, everyone who claims he is good at the matchup just say things like "well he beats hungrybox, so he must be good" or "he copied mango, and mango's good at the matchup!". Not a single one of those responses is actually based on understanding the jigglypuff vs fox matchup, they're just arbitrary statements based on looking at an end result or some stray information.

this **** is too long and its not even worth replying too lol

 

[Kite91]

Im having the hardest time wavedashing backwards out of shine. Is there some secret i dont know

 

[Xyzz]

You're probably hitting the stick in the direction you want to WD before jumping, which will cause you to turn around in your shine (which takes 3 frames, and therefore messes up your timing).
Practice hitting jump first and only then inputting the direction of your airdodge and you should be fine.

 

[Bones0]

Im having the hardest time wavedashing backwards out of shine. Is there some secret i dont know

Don't move the stick backwards until after you jump (assuming you are turning around in shine.

 

[Stijn]

Is it possible to shineWD into Fsmash characters like Peach or Falcon?

 

[Charlesz]

Hey SW, what do you think about full hop up airs and sh up airs OOS? Does it come out fast enough for it to be a safe move? And what's the likely hood I get grabbed based on the hitstun on shield?

 

[Druggedfox]

Is it possible to shineWD into Fsmash characters like Peach or Falcon?

More important than if you can, why do you want to? Between grab, uptilt, upsmash, and downsmash as finishers for waveshines, I think you cover the optimal choice in any almost any given situation.

 

[Captain Smuckers]

if you're waveshining someone behind you, is it faster to turn around after or during the shine?

 

[Druggedfox]

Both take a frame so it depends if you want to learn the timing to turn around as fast as possible after shine hitlag or after wavedash lag.

I personally don't mind turning around after the wavedash if i'm going to run and grab or run and upsmash, but if i plan on walking into another shine I prefer turning around in the shine.

 

[Xyzz]

I don't know about the regular turnaround, but turning around in shine definitely takes more than a frame (three, to be more specific).

 

[Druggedfox]

Regular turn arounds are definitely 1 frame, I never knew that in shine it was more. Where can I find that???