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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
To the best of my knowledge, whether you ground the shine or not is irrelevant. I tried multiple percents at multiple spacings to the ledge, and no matter what combination it was they slid off in the same way for each method. I expected as much though.
 

Anand

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
282
Location
Cambridge, MA
Yes, Toph, when he said "PP jumps right before that second shine connects" he meant it in the sense that both happened, like "I brushed my teeth right before I ate breakfast" (as opposed to "I closed the door right before the cat escaped").
 

omgwtfToph

Smash Master
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
4,486
Location
San Jose
That was a really good example. Good clarification. LIKED

Well, regardless of whether he jumped or not (I believe him), a lot of the time a shine (or doubleshine) right at the edge like that will make it so Falco ends up below the ledge even if he still has his doublejump. Which is why it's so good

Someone find that match between jman and PP the first time they played where jman got 2 uthrow doubleshine gimps on FD lol
 

TemPesT-

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 24, 2006
Messages
1,175
Location
Minnesota
any tips for the neutral game in fox dittos? i feel like its just mindless dash dancing and whoever commits to an aerial of some sort gets punished. is that really the extent of it? i dont feel like platform camping in a fox ditto really helps at all since teh up m0ves. and anything more then approaching with a shine can just get grabbed during the land lag.. tips?
 

omgwtfToph

Smash Master
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
4,486
Location
San Jose
any tips for the neutral game in fox dittos? i feel like its just mindless dash dancing and whoever commits to an aerial of some sort gets punished. is that really the extent of it? i dont feel like platform camping in a fox ditto really helps at all since teh up m0ves. and anything more then approaching with a shine can just get grabbed during the land lag.. tips?
The trick to the dashdance game is being very conscious through all of it. If you think dashdancing is "mindless" then you're not doing it right. Play a good aggressive fox if you want a good example of how bad dashdancing gets shut down, hard.

But basically you win a dashdance battle in one of two ways; 1. react to a bad approach or 2. do a good approach. Simple as that
 

unknown522

Some guy
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
8,047
Location
Toronto, Ontario
Maybe I should write a book on dash dancing.

But on the real though, there are a lot of players that think that they can just pick up fox and DD spam to win. And/or spam n-air. But there really is a lot of depth to DDing. Someone who has ha really good control of their DD is actually Raynex. Even in his old matches
 

He-Man1

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 20, 2012
Messages
21
Maybe I should write a book on dash dancing.

But on the real though, there are a lot of players that think that they can just pick up fox and DD spam to win. And/or spam n-air. But there really is a lot of depth to DDing. Someone who has ha really good control of their DD is actually Raynex. Even in his old matches
Would you be able to explain a little about what you are thinking when you DD or break down a few seconds of a video of Raynex (or anyone else) DDing?
 

BetaBahamut

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 6, 2009
Messages
294
Location
Syracuse, NY
This is actually a topic I think about alot. Whenever I lose a match I always trace it back to mistakes in the neutral game. I hate when I hear from other smashers that Dash dancing is boring, or mindless, or just another way of camping. I try to explain that you can be aggressive with your DD and actually take some of your opponents stage inch by inch with good DD control. Too often it feels like people learn basic DD and move on to other techs and never revisit it or treat it as the game defining skill it is.
 
G

genkaku

Guest
what determines if when turning around if you will walk, dash, or just turn?
'cause sometimes I'll accidentally do any of the above when I mean to do another.
 

TemPesT-

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 24, 2006
Messages
1,175
Location
Minnesota
maybe mindless was a bad choice of words, cuz i'm definitely still thinking, but its more along the lines of, man i hope this guy commits to a nair or something stupid so i can dash dance some more and punish him.

could someone just break down the dash dance battle for me, cuz i see it like, were fighting for middle stage sorta (FD at least) because it gives you more room to work with, and if you get control of that space, it leaves your opponent with less room and less options (both good things). so i usually dash dance at my opponent and try to throw in some empty short hop waveland aways to also mix it up. and if i catch my opponent running out of room, or getting scared and shielding, then i'll usually try and nair their shield and shine/grab. too many times i feel like i'm approaching, and getting punished for it i guess, so maybe my approach is my the real issue at hand, i think i have the upper hand, i go in and get *****.
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
16,256
Location
Northern IL
what determines if when turning around if you will walk, dash, or just turn?
'cause sometimes I'll accidentally do any of the above when I mean to do another.
depends entirely on your input. When you press the control stick, and how hard. For example, you land with an attack and try to dash immediately but you press the control stick too early, the game will register it as a hold/tilt in that direction.
 

bearsfan092

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 1, 2012
Messages
402
I'm a super noob at Fox, having only played him for a week now against scrubs, but maybe I can share my DD thoughts with He Man, beginner to beginner. The rest of you, please correct me now while I'm still learning so much.

Since I'm not as experienced, I'm always prepared to WD backwards out of my DD. This doesn't mean that I always do it, but that's the option I constantly remind myself of. If the opponent gets a bit aggro with an approach, you can do the whole WD back and forth and get a nair/grab/etc thing Fox does so well.

Otherwise when DDing, I'm thinking about how I can make my opponent miss. WD backwards is one way of doing this. Another thing I'll do is DD, break out into a full dash, and then WD straight down/backwards to stop the momentum. With that, sometimes I can trick the opponent into thinking I'm going straight at them, only to break the momentum as close as possible without getting hit, and follow up with whatever approach works best.

This last bit I'm shaky on its viability, so maybe some critique. If I really need to get some field position, I'll be almost stupid with my DD. For example, I'll be DDing pretty close so that I'm just barely outside of attack range. Then I try to use the shine to intercept their grab/attack to establish some position quickly. I don't try this against some characters like Marth though.

So that's my DD thought process as a very young Fox. Anyone want to point out any problems in my logic?
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
If you want to learn to DD, watch PP's Falco vs. Armada. Then realize you're Fox and adjust it so you are going twice as close and twice as far from the opponent with every dash.
 

leffen

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Messages
2,032
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
I'm super bad

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzwP-y5Aymc&sns=em

Could I ask for a critique?

Preferably the whole set if possible

Thanks in advance
I'll take a look at it if I have some time over =D


I'm also thinking about writing a guide on how to think about dash dancing, and how to apply it. It seems like the concept is commonly very misunderstood, especially if you compare it to the FGCs understanding of the neutral game. It feels as if the average knowledge about the neutral game and how its different parts works is much better in their scene, very possibly because of how long and how many different games people in the scene play.
Would people be interested in this? I've seen a couple questions about this, but are people looking for a long, well formated guide with picture and video examples or do you guys just want a two sentence answer :)?
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
I'll take a look at it if I have some time over =D


I'm also thinking about writing a guide on how to think about dash dancing, and how to apply it. It seems like the concept is commonly very misunderstood, especially if you compare it to the FGCs understanding of the neutral game. It feels as if the average knowledge about the neutral game and how its different parts works is much better in their scene, very possibly because of how long and how many different games people in the scene play.
Would people be interested in this? I've seen a couple questions about this, but are people looking for a long, well formated guide with picture and video examples or do you guys just want a two sentence answer :)?
Maybe I am just a Melee elitist over other FGs (I'm pretty ignorant about all things traditional fighter), but their neutral game just seems a lot more simple. You're always facing your opponent and there doesn't seem to be nearly as many issues with momentum shifting (literal momentum) that come up with someone trying to DDWD. All the characters seem to have fairly similar footsie speeds which is simply done by holding a direction, and then they have jumping which seems to be about as complex as Melee's jump/double jump neutral game. I know a lot of my trouble in the neutral game isn't about my actual spacing, but rather problems like:
- my momentum
- the direction I'm facing
- whether I'm in a dash or standing
- being in WD lag when I need to be acting
- being at the beginning/end of my dash in such a way that I cannot attack/defend properly
- compensating my neutral game spacing for how I need to be spaced after engaging (e.g. I may space my aerial properly to hit, but I also have to consider how it will land, if I need to fade away, if I'm by a ledge or platform, etc.)
 

He-Man1

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 20, 2012
Messages
21
I'll take a look at it if I have some time over =D


I'm also thinking about writing a guide on how to think about dash dancing, and how to apply it. It seems like the concept is commonly very misunderstood, especially if you compare it to the FGCs understanding of the neutral game. It feels as if the average knowledge about the neutral game and how its different parts works is much better in their scene, very possibly because of how long and how many different games people in the scene play.
Would people be interested in this? I've seen a couple questions about this, but are people looking for a long, well formated guide with picture and video examples or do you guys just want a two sentence answer :)?
This would be pretty awesome. I think a guide with concrete picture/video examples would be super helpful at clarifying how to use DD correctly. For a subject that is so fundamental to the game, it seems like there isn't enough info on the boards about it.
 

Metal Reeper

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2006
Messages
2,285
Location
Abington PA
This would be pretty awesome. I think a guide with concrete picture/video examples would be super helpful at clarifying how to use DD correctly. For a subject that is so fundamental to the game, it seems like there isn't enough info on the boards about it.
Look up " lucien spacing tutorial"
 

CanISmash

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Messages
1,448
Location
Elmont LI, Queens. Philadelphia during semesters.
are there any lists of fox tech skill videos... i remember some kid made some cool ones with instructions and pc chris like backed the video....

I'm trying to work on movement rather than shine nair triple shine up-smash nonsense.

any tips on: edge hogging as fast as possible. or just movement tricksies in general. one thing that really opened my eyes to how the game worked was years back when i saw a combo video of a fox jumping into an opponents shield, wavelanding backwards (opponent would normally drop shield or shield grab) and then running back up and up-smash. i know all this stuff is situational but knowledge is power.

another question you know how when someone shields and some players dash dance through the shield and grab them backwards. is there any way to do this while dashing from a distance too long to do an immediate dash dance??

edit: 1 more situation I don't know how to pull off. say you're facing forward on a pokemon stadium platform. what is the quickest way you could walk forward turn around and drop down with a back-air so you end up facing the opposite direction that you started
 

Pengie

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
1,125
Location
Atlanta, GA
are there any lists of fox tech skill videos... i remember some kid made some cool ones with instructions and pc chris like backed the video....

I'm trying to work on movement rather than shine nair triple shine up-smash nonsense.

any tips on: edge hogging as fast as possible. or just movement tricksies in general. one thing that really opened my eyes to how the game worked was years back when i saw a combo video of a fox jumping into an opponents shield, wavelanding backwards (opponent would normally drop shield or shield grab) and then running back up and up-smash. i know all this stuff is situational but knowledge is power.

another question you know how when someone shields and some players dash dance through the shield and grab them backwards. is there any way to do this while dashing from a distance too long to do an immediate dash dance??

edit: 1 more situation I don't know how to pull off. say you're facing forward on a pokemon stadium platform. what is the quickest way you could walk forward turn around and drop down with a back-air so you end up facing the opposite direction that you started
to my knowledge the fastest way to edgehog is to either do the PC edgehog or wavedash off of the ledge and fastfall as soon as you go off the ledge to grab it as fast as possible. Shinehogging might be faster but there will rarely be situations where you absolutely HAVE to do it so it's kinda meh imo.


uhhh, no idea on this one but if you can ever run behind them and grab why not just grab them regularly? also If they're that far away I wanna say that you can react to you running behind they can WD OoS to avoid the grab, but I don't think I've encountered people who do this enough to say whether it's reactable to or not.

The last one would be doing a running shield drop/shai drop where you dash in one direction, immediately dash in the other direction and then do a shield drop back air so it'd look like this only with one dash forward and one back.
 

smopup

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 6, 2008
Messages
462
Location
Brisbane, Australia
I'm also thinking about writing a guide on how to think about dash dancing, and how to apply it. It seems like the concept is commonly very misunderstood, especially if you compare it to the FGCs understanding of the neutral game. It feels as if the average knowledge about the neutral game and how its different parts works is much better in their scene, very possibly because of how long and how many different games people in the scene play.
Would people be interested in this? I've seen a couple questions about this, but are people looking for a long, well formated guide with picture and video examples or do you guys just want a two sentence answer :)?
This would be so good. I know I totally underestimated the importance of dash dancing when I first started out. My knowledge now is decent, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's something I'm missing in the eyes of a top-level player.
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 27, 2008
Messages
26,545
dash dancing is the root of almost all neutral-game positioning, in a game based mostly around positioning. i think, after the obvious tech skill barriers, you can start separating players based on how well they can apply dash dancing. sooo important
 

Construct

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 16, 2012
Messages
465
Location
NEOH
I'll take a look at it if I have some time over =D


I'm also thinking about writing a guide on how to think about dash dancing, and how to apply it. It seems like the concept is commonly very misunderstood, especially if you compare it to the FGCs understanding of the neutral game. It feels as if the average knowledge about the neutral game and how its different parts works is much better in their scene, very possibly because of how long and how many different games people in the scene play.
Would people be interested in this? I've seen a couple questions about this, but are people looking for a long, well formated guide with picture and video examples or do you guys just want a two sentence answer :)?
This would be awesome. The neutral game is where I'd like to improve the most, and I've always taken a lot from leffen posts where you drop a bunch of knowledge.
 

SK919

Deal with it
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
846
Location
wilmington, North Carolina
Movement is the most important part of this game. That's how you put ideas in your opponents head! and manipulate them from there.

But yo, I came here wondering if fox has a consistent option to punish a jab on his shield that is spaced out side of grab range.

Would upsmash out of shield work?
 

BTmoney

a l l b e c o m e $
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
1,806
Location
Columbus OH / Chicago (Plainfield) IL
There's a good chance they'll just shield it or you'll just get hit by a second/third jab. If they use all their jabs then sure why not.
I think nair OoS or any aerial OoS is better and leads to either getting a hit or sticking them in shield
 

FluxWolf

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 14, 2006
Messages
1,330
Location
Minneapolis
Are you guys really talking about how to dash dance for this long?

Think about it like being at the gym lifting weights... but with your brain (because your brain is a muscle ;)) you have to lift the weights to get stronger... And with enough repetition and proper form you will see improvement and be able to lift heavier weights.

Right now you guys are just looking at the weights like ahh I should really lift those... and asking Unknown and Leffen (the pro bodybuilders) to lift them for you xD

Meaning even if they write yall a book about it you still won't get better... Aside from having a slight bit more knowledge thats it.
 

FluxWolf

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 14, 2006
Messages
1,330
Location
Minneapolis
00:20: Go for better punishes, Bl@ckChris did a dumb illusion onto the stage and you shine him instead of grab/up smash. And you actually end up getting nair/up smashed because you shined and didn't follow up.
00:36: I think you tried to up tilt but accidentally up smashed. Practice your up tilts! (wavedash into up tilts/nair reverse utilt are good ways to practice that)

Overall pretty good stuff though just keep up the practice... Try to challenge yourself and dig deep to win when you play/concentrate more and you might see some improvement too, seems like you have some unnecessary stuff going on one of which caused a SD and without that u could have won for sure...
 
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