• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

JPOBS

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 26, 2007
Messages
5,821
Location
Mos Eisley
why the hell does this thread constantly have to turn into ganon/warrior discussion every ****ing 2 pages.

kage stop posting here unless you're talking about FOX please.
 

Sinji

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Messages
3,370
Location
Brooklyn New York
NNID
Sinjis
3DS FC
0361-6602-9839
What do you guys think about laser> ftilt downward pressure when a character is on the ledge? Im trying to apply some of PP's falco tactics in fox matches.
 

Sinji

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Messages
3,370
Location
Brooklyn New York
NNID
Sinjis
3DS FC
0361-6602-9839
I know that, i try to use his speed to intimadate opponents and his lasers to get more percent then mix it up with D Dancing.
 

Divinokage

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
16,250
Location
Montreal, Quebec
why the hell does this thread constantly have to turn into ganon/warrior discussion every ****ing 2 pages.

kage stop posting here unless you're talking about FOX please.
Because making your being stronger helps your melee play. There's no particular place where you can say these things.. there's certain things that need to be internalized before actually being able to reach top level play as well. Don't forget that.
 

JPOBS

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 26, 2007
Messages
5,821
Location
Mos Eisley
Because making your being stronger helps your melee play. There's no particular place where you can say these things.. there's certain things that need to be internalized before actually being able to reach top level play as well. Don't forget that.
ok well thats great.

I'm just respectfully asking that you stop talking about ganon in the fox thread. Its annoying having to wade through posts about how you cant sheildgrab peachs dash attack as ganon while i'm trying to follow fox discussion. This isn't the first time either, its been bugging me for a while because you always manage to shift any discussion to being about ganon. Just please stop, its annoying.
You're obviously welcome if you wanna discuss fox but please keep ganon related topics in the proper place unless we're discussing the matchup.
 

Brookman

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
6,202
Location
pikachu
@ sinji: if I were on the ledge I would feel very welcome to return to the stage if you were spamming shl. Dunno exactly what you want to get out. Perhaps you should take your own advice here and just put your skill to the test at apex or genesis or whichever you are attending.

@JPOBS: if you are really concerned with the direction of this topic you would be better served by taking your off topic rant to PMs ;]

Additionally, I really don't ever have a problem with kage posting here. You must realize that the ganon thread is . . . well, anyway. . .
 

Walt

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 31, 2007
Messages
894
Location
Concord, CA
I like Kage posting anywhere, he carries what I think is the best attitude about smash and competitive gaming in general. A lot of people need more help with mentality than anything and Kage brings the right one so think of him trying to help everyone regardless of what forum he's in. Also the Ganon forum gets about 1 post per day soooo deal wit it yo.

What are the mechanics to shining someone lying on the ground btw Fox dudes?
 

unknown522

Some guy
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
8,047
Location
Toronto, Ontario
^ If they opponent doesn't DI the shine then it'll force them to get up. If they DI it, then they will most likely stand up.

Also, I still really want to make a video tutorial for fox. But I need to write down ideas and take the time to make it.
 

Sinji

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Messages
3,370
Location
Brooklyn New York
NNID
Sinjis
3DS FC
0361-6602-9839
That sounds good. maybe you can show ppl the different ledge hops.

I think theres eight of them. correct me if im wrong.
 

Divinokage

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
16,250
Location
Montreal, Quebec
^ If they opponent doesn't DI the shine then it'll force them to get up. If they DI it, then they will most likely stand up.

Also, I still really want to make a video tutorial for fox. But I need to write down ideas and take the time to make it.
Ya that would be a great idea, I think a lot of people are looking for something like this to really understand what's going on. It's time for action! =P
 

joeplicate

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 30, 2008
Messages
4,842
Location
alameda, ca
Haha sinji holy crap dude

I think you're worried about a gotta things that don't matter... 8 ledgehops, really?! Lmao

I think that, if you wanted to do something fast/safe to cover opponents getting up from the edge, you could do a shl, then do a super fast nair to cover hella options, land and do a quick ftilt down. The laser might bait them to get up, nair would prolly be safe if they got up into shield, and then ftilt is super fast and safe, plus it would hit the edge if they were hanging there.

If you wanted like a muscle memory routine to do, that might be a good one to pressure the edge. I think you're better off trying to bait them into getting up than trying to throw out moves, though.

:phone:
 

Lovage

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 15, 2007
Messages
6,746
Location
STANKONIA CA
haha, lasering shields in certain situations for the stun is actually something i think is pretty good

one of those things i couldn't really convince people of if i tried, but something i can definitely feel it's value in my hands when i do it.
 

omgwtfToph

Smash Master
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
4,486
Location
San Jose
there may be 8 ledge hops...... but there are 36 chambers of shaolin

Sinji, do you think your wu-tang sword can defeat me!?
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
haha, lasering shields in certain situations for the stun is actually something i think is pretty good

one of those things i couldn't really convince people of if i tried, but something i can definitely feel it's value in my hands when i do it.
Yo SHDL Shine on shielding opponent is so cute!

But in all seriousness it is arbitrarily useful.
 

Brookman

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
6,202
Location
pikachu
lasers do inflict stun on shields so your opponent may lose jump/roll/grab inputs to it. Definitely an interesting maneuver. I did notice you use that Lovage, I believe it was in the recent vs. mango set on YS on the right side. You drop through the platform and pop out a laser.
 

unknown522

Some guy
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
8,047
Location
Toronto, Ontario
there may be 8 ledge hops...... but there are 36 chambers of shaolin

Sinji, do you think your wu-tang sword can defeat me!?
hahahahahahahahahaha!!!

that's awesome.


should bounce ideas for it around here, perhaps a group collaboration is in order?
I think it's time!

Ya that would be a great idea, I think a lot of people are looking for something like this to really understand what's going on. It's time for action! =P
yep. yep.
 
Joined
Jun 27, 2005
Messages
10,463
Location
the west
lasers do inflict stun on shields so your opponent may lose jump/roll/grab inputs to it. Definitely an interesting maneuver. I did notice you use that Lovage, I believe it was in the recent vs. mango set on YS on the right side. You drop through the platform and pop out a laser.
i think its useful not cuz of that, but cuz youre opponents wait for something to hit their shield to react but if its just a laser the fox is left with a lot less delay leaving him in a better situation.
 

4 Aces

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 23, 2007
Messages
892
Game 2 of match 1

Anybody mind giving me advice? This was my first major tourney, hell, first time I actually got to come into contact with other smash players in like 4 years. It's a few months back, so it's kinda outdated, and I feel like I've gotten better since, but it's the only video of me. All advice appreciated.
 

Cyrain

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 22, 2006
Messages
969
Location
Midlothian, VA
I tend to use a lot of full hops against falcons. If you notice, you both just dash at each other and SHFFL nair many many times and falcon pretty much wins that exchange every time. His nair will outspace yours and send you to the ground and into a teching position, which is where falcon really wants you. A couple times you also just dashed right at him and Nair'd for no real reason and got grabbed/***** for it. Falcon has such tremendous speed and spends so much time dash dancing around that you REALLY need to overshoot your aerials by a fair length in order to catch him. Don't try to Nair where he is...Try to nair past where he is. Odds are good that he'll try to dash dance away and space himself for a grab setup, so you want to be on top of him when he's dashing away. I wouldn't try to beat his approach so directly. Granted, on your third stock you dash up and get in his face and nair him several times in a row, but then fail to capitalize once he's knocked down. Falcon's get up attack is mad easy to punish and his rolls/get up are so ****ty and easy to tech chase that all you really need to do is be patient and observant. No need to keep rushing him down once he's on the ground. A lot of foxes these days are so technical that they also LOVE just spamming nair shine nair shine nair shine, etc. against falcon. It's cool and it's great pressure and I definitely apply it, but I prefer the sense of control I get from landing simple grabs and upsmashes against falcon, getting him in the air or into a teching position and then continuing to capitalize and **** him since he really doesn't have a good "clear out" move (or really any options) on wake-up. He's pretty much all yours. I think I only saw you land two grabs in that match and didn't capitalize on either of them. DI or no DI, fox can do nasty diabolical things to falcon out of grabs, even if it's just dashing and doing quick SHFFLd nairs or u-tilt to u-air for damage. I also ALWAYS shoot lasers against falcons. So many Falcons spend so much time dash dancing around/maintaining spacing and waiting for you to approach so they can land a Nair or grab that you're afforded PLENTY of time to laser. It racks up good damage quickly while leaving you relatively safe if you aren't reckless about it. I'm awful at explaining matchups, but I can't remember the last time I lost to a falcon in tournament and am quite confident in my approach here. I could go on and on all day about combos, set-ups, gimps, approaches, etc. but I'll just leave it at this for now.
 

omgwtfToph

Smash Master
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
4,486
Location
San Jose
Yeah I was gonna say, all you really did was shffl nair. That only works once you're already on the aggressive. If Falcon has the room and time to put his own shffl nair out there, it outranges yours and leads to a grab. You gotta mix it up with things like full jump bairs, use the platforms to maneuver around him etc. until you "get in." THEN you can start being brainless technical nairshine fox lol.

Although you should really try to get grabs more often.
 

Cyrain

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 22, 2006
Messages
969
Location
Midlothian, VA
I had totally meant to mention the platform deal. Slipped my mind until you mentioned it just now. Falcon can short hop knee you through some platforms and of course he can uair, but using them to maneuver around, get above him or get on top of him is very useful and generally pretty safe.
 

Wenbobular

Smash Hero
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
5,744
I don't understand how being above Falcon is ever a good thing ... Uair is pretty ****
If you're getting beat by Falcon's Nair just run a little closer and Nair slightly later .. dodge the first leg and kick him in the balls
 

Walt

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 31, 2007
Messages
894
Location
Concord, CA
Word Wenbo. Nair up in Falcon's junk shuts him down hard. Don't even need to nair shine, just cross-up nair when close and drill cover CC. Also if you ever see Falcon try to nair you while still on the ground, usmash will anti air him all day. Full hopping a lot gets pretty countered by SH uair from falcon. I look for fox to try FH nair and I just uair under it. Waveshining Falcon's shield a lot gets you stomped too, shine>bair, shine>WD>utilt can stop it. The utilt will miss sometimes, the timing on when it hits stomp and when it whiffs/trades is weird.
 

Lovage

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 15, 2007
Messages
6,746
Location
STANKONIA CA
approaching with short hops is really good but you can easily be outspaced by falcon's nair if you get predictable

using fullhops is also good but a bit riskier because falcon can cc weak nair until approximately 700 thousand percent and counter with grab if you have poor spacing. this technique is better when falcon's at high percent cuz weak nair will knock him down.

using platforms to make falcon jump at you is good, but if you get predictable with it you will find yourself trapped by falcon's super fast uair. playing off this fact, good falcons will often wait for you to make a mistake when trying to get back to the ground, like a really obvious nair into center stage. if you feel yourself trapped on the platforms by falcon's uair, don't be impatient. figure out a clever, non-obvious way to get back to center stage such as fulljumping on a side platform, and fastfalling thru it and towards the edge. or simply running off the platform and landing in the corner by the edge.

my #1 tip in this matchup is to absolutely maximize the amount of damage you can do with your combos, and be as ruthless as possible in your edgeguarding. try to extend your combos with uair -> bair instead of usmash -> nothing.
learn how to knock falcon on a platform and tech chase him with uair (protip: they always roll towards the stage.)

when edgeguarding, learn the exact amount of distance falcon's up+b can go depending on how much he fades it back. learn exactly how long your ledge invincibility lasts and how to time your use of it so you can safely shine him when he up+b's below you.
 

Cyrain

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 22, 2006
Messages
969
Location
Midlothian, VA
@ Wenbo, I'm not saying to just stand around above him or come in with super long, obvious full hops. I assume anyone with a brain in their head would know this, but getting above him is an easy way to clear the gap that most falcons will create by just dash dancing around. Can also use it to force him out of middle stage and towards a ledge, depending on what level you're on (which platforms are available to you)

@ Palpi- If you're standing on the ground, sure.

@ Lovage- All good advice. Right on. Particularly the bit about combos. Juggling and tech chasing falcon is so ****ing easy that there's no reason to just drill shine --> usmash or anything like that. Waveshine --> turn around u-tilt or grab combos are far better and far easier to use to send him off the edge.
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
8,084
Location
The Wash: Lake City
vs falcon, dont forget to combo into downsmash. It limits his recovery options by alot even at low percents.

and whenever u can, simply pressure the back of his shield by transitioning from a nair shine(late nair>shine, fair thru his shield and shine nair/bair on the backside...wait=****)...be prepared to punish dair oos and roll. Its the part of Foxs game that falcon cant really handle.
 

Kosine

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 18, 2008
Messages
44
Location
Birmingham/Atlanta
i'm not a smash pro or anything but i have a very solid fox against falcon and can usually take out falcons of a generally higher skill level. here is my take on the MU.

in the neutral game, stay on the ground and keep your distance. you have a laser, so use it. make falcon approach you. he is going to be coming at you with nairs all day. luckily, a smart fox absolutely murders this approach. you want to have a tight dash dance game. no matter how fast the falcon is, and as long as you dont get trapped with your back near the edge, fox can dash back and punish falcon in his landing lag. its best to always stay in the dash dance in this situation, so i will punish with either grab or running upsmash. if the falcon does corner you near the edge, however, uptilt is your best friend. a well timed backwards facing uptilt will almost always (in my experience) beat out falcons nair, and uptilt is easily fox's best combo starter in this matchup. alternatively, fox can always dash under falcons short hop nairs, but i usually only do this when im in danger of being cornered. from here you can eat his lunch with a bair, or just reset your position, but now falcon is cornered by the edge, and thats an even worse position for him than it is for you.

from an offensive stand point, i understand that it can be hard to get in on falcon, but your best bet is to get him to put his shield up. once you hit falcons shield, that is basically like landing a hit. he cant do anything out of shield. i have a generally weak shield pressure game, but you dont really need much of one against falcon. drill the back of his shield. from here, mix up with either an uptilt or just do nothing. most falcons will roll away at first, so i usually just drill, wait, then punish the roll. but if they start to catch on, they will probably try to nair or stomp out of shield. this is where that uptilt starts to pay serious dividends, as a properly timed uptilt here will catch them jumping out of the shield, but before their aerial comes out. also, a lot of falcons do a quick double jump here, so the uptilt literally *****. falcon in the air with no double jump against fox should be the stock if you are patient and on point with your punishment game. there are probably better things you can do if you get his shield up, but this is just something thats safe that works a majority of the time, as well as frustrates the hell out of them. i would like to hear what others do to falcons shield.

edgeguarding falcon is simple, but easy to screw up. the biggest mistake i see most foxes making is not maintaining control of the edge. falcon has a lot of recovery mixups/mindgames that allow him to get to the edge. the best way to prevent this is to just stay on the edge. just reset invincibility and try to shine the piss out of him, no matter what angle he tries to come in at. just make sure you dont miss and drop the edgeguard. if he lands on the stage, either do a bair from the ledge to continue the edgeguard (you have to be very fast or he will shield) or drill shine to upsmash if he is at kill percent. if your bair sends him at an angle where he is forced to recover high, go ahead and get on the stage and charge forward smash. if you space it correctly, it will connect whether falcon tries to drop in and grab the edge or land on the stage. just make sure you dont do it in a situation where falcon can make his up B land behind you and it is a guaranteed continuation of your edgeguard. watch colbol against falcons to see how to forward smash like this. this is preferable to the bair imo since charged fsmash is considerably more knockback and damage, especially since for any normal fox your fsmash is going to be less stale than your bair. also, as a side note, i would generally avoid trying to shine falcon below the stage unless he is in lag, or unless you are invincible from the ledge. just be patient. you dont want to piss away your stock because you got greedy with a shine and caught an up B in the mouth. that's a two stock swing.

regarding combos, i usually use a more intuitive approach than any percent specific stuff. he seriously just drops like a rock. dont ever be afraid to let him hit the ground in a combo because tech chasing falcon with fox is so simple that i almost prefer it to the simple nair/uptilt/upsmash aerial combos. his get up attack is a joke to punish. falcon's only real hope of escaping fox once he gets hit (at really percent really) is the double jump. respect that. dont just jump at him with a random aerial after he double jumps out of a combo, because if he is good you will often get hit for it. just laser and reset your neutral game because fox is always at an advantage there.

watch cactuar if you want to get a better sense of how to get that first hit against falcon. he wrote the book on it.

watch colbol for how to get guaranteed kills when you have falcon in a combo near the edge.

every time i see fox lose to falcon i die a little bit on the inside. falcon should seriously lose this matchup before the game even starts.
 

Cyrain

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 22, 2006
Messages
969
Location
Midlothian, VA
once you hit falcons shield, that is basically like landing a hit. he cant do anything out of shield. most falcons will roll away at first, so i usually just drill, wait, then punish the roll.
^^^^ This ^^^^

Not entirely sure that I agree with the claim that Falcon should lose the matchup before the game even begins though. x_x
 

Winston

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 13, 2006
Messages
3,562
Location
Seattle, WA (slightly north of U-District)
I too feel like saying random things about the matchup

my #1 tip in this matchup is to absolutely maximize the amount of damage you can do with your combos, and be as ruthless as possible in your edgeguarding. try to extend your combos with uair -> bair instead of usmash -> nothing.
learn how to knock falcon on a platform and tech chase him with uair (protip: they always roll towards the stage.)
I think maximizing followups out of nair is kinda overlooked.

First of all, at low percents by the very edge, nair -> doubleshine works just as well on Falcon as it does on spacies.

At lowish percents when nair knocks falcon slightly into the air but doesn't make him fall over, nair -> grab is way better than nair -> shine.

At somewhat higher percents when he gets knocked over but doesn't land too far away, more nair spam lets you cover all his tech options pretty much. If he lands close enough you can do like walk forward -> reaction techchase instead. Utilt the missed tech/tech in place, grab the techrolls, etc.

After that nair -> dash attack -> stuff is pretty reliable.

when edgeguarding, learn the exact amount of distance falcon's up+b can go depending on how much he fades it back. learn exactly how long your ledge invincibility lasts and how to time your use of it so you can safely shine him when he up+b's below you.
The biggest thing with edgeguarding is not grabbing the edge at the wrong times, i.e. when he has enough height/is close enough to have the option of fading back. Fsmash/reacting to his trajectory with non ledgehop aerials are better for those situations. Grabbing the edge to shine him ***** otherwise though.

If he's recovering from below but not right next to the stage so you don't have a free shinespike, and it's low percents, I think something like ledgehop drill (with a low arc, as if you're falco) -> shine works quite well.

vs falcon, dont forget to combo into downsmash. It limits his recovery options by alot even at low percents.
This is only good once he's at like 70 percent I feel. Dsmash is so incredibly weak. If you dsmash him near the edge and he's at like 60 after the hit he'll get back to the stage with just his double jump pretty easily, unless he was DIing down and away or something.
 

chillindude829

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 18, 2002
Messages
4,804
Location
Northern Virginia
i havent seen anyone mention this for edgeguarding falcon yet, but bairing him at the peak of his up+B is a really easy way to kill him at pretty much any % when hes off the edge

i try to time it so i grab the edge after the bair, so in the unlikely event it misses he still gets edgehogged

also, up tilt works wonders for starting and continuing combos in this match, especially when the falcon is just spamming aerials, its a pretty underused move vs falcon i think
 
Top Bottom