Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Cactuar]

uptilt is an underused move

lolololol

**

 

[chillindude829]

f u cactuar

u may have pioneered the dumb up tilt spam but u still got nothin on my dumb falling uair spam

come play me in melee this weekend

 

[JPOBS]

tech chase on reaction vs falcon. if he has to hit the ground, theres no excuse why he should be escaping.

try not to always shine after aerials on his shield. His stomp oos can be spaced well and if it connects its gonna lead to ****. mixup timings and spacing so that you dont have to shine every time. use uptilts, jabs, or even nothing to keep him honest/afraid about stomping oos. if he rolls react and punish.

back air is deadly. try to nair in between his nair kicks, otherwise u get outspaced.
CC the first hit of nair-> shine is also decent but be careful cuz when he hits ground he can do anything. but a LOT of falcons will try to nair>grab and if you CC the nair and shine they will grab in place, and you can punish them hard

umm, yea....everyone else pretty much covered it. falcon is free. or something >_>

 

[Winston]

i havent seen anyone mention this for edgeguarding falcon yet, but bairing him at the peak of his up+B is a really easy way to kill him at pretty much any % when hes off the edge

Yeah this should be the default edgeguard pretty much if he's above stage height. If they have good DI it'll send them pretty high, but just intercept any falcon kick attempts and they still don't really have options.

also, up tilt works wonders for starting and continuing combos in this match, especially when the falcon is just spamming aerials, its a pretty underused move vs falcon i think

I think its THE best move for comboing Falcon in this matchup up until like 80% or so. nair utilt, waveshine utilt, utilt missed techs on reaction, etc. It's almost strictly better than usmash/grab until kill percents imo, given the choice

tech chase on reaction vs falcon. if he has to hit the ground, theres no excuse why he should be escaping.

Well, if you don't have time to set it up so that you can end up STANDING next to him as he hits the ground, then he might escape. But for the most part yeah. That's not specific to Falcon though... that should apply vs. Fox as well (and vs. Falco if you are on point).

try not to always shine after aerials on his shield. His stomp oos can be spaced well and if it connects its gonna lead to ****.

I think stomp oos is only a problem for fox is you do an early nair, and the only reason you'd want to do that really is if you're crossing up, in which case either bair or dash away -> come back with a nair are pretty safe options that continue the pressure. I agree with the "not using shine" all the time thing though.

CC the first hit of nair-> shine is also decent but be careful cuz when he hits ground he can do anything. but a LOT of falcons will try to nair>grab and if you CC the nair and shine they will grab in place, and you can punish them hard

I don't really like this because grab can be spaced around shine range. I usually have more success with CC dtilt, though they can CC that if you do it too much. CC to dash sh nair might be viable if you're really quick but I'm not sure.

 

[JPOBS]

I don't really like this because grab can be spaced around shine range. I usually have more success with CC dtilt, though they can CC that if you do it too much. CC to dash sh nair might be viable if you're really quick but I'm not sure.

huh? if you cc the nair (like in the scenario we're talking about) and shine, theres no spacing involved.

im just talking about how falcons like to instinctively hit confirm a nair->grab. but if you CC the nair, and they still grab (out of habit or whatever) then they will get slide, have their hitstun cancelled by landing, and whiff a grab which you can punish. its not a gamebreaker or anything, just a little thing to look out for.

 

[Wenbobular]

@ Wenbo, I'm not saying to just stand around above him or come in with super long, obvious full hops. I assume anyone with a brain in their head would know this, but getting above him is an easy way to clear the gap that most falcons will create by just dash dancing around. Can also use it to force him out of middle stage and towards a ledge, depending on what level you're on (which platforms are available to you)

Meh
I've never felt comfortable being above Falcon with any character, he's Ganon but way faster and with only slightly shorter legs <_<
There's just no credible threat coming from above when everything you can plausibly do will get stuffed by a Uair if you're playing someone of equal skill

 

[Winston]

huh? if you cc the nair (like in the scenario we're talking about) and shine, theres no spacing involved.

im just talking about how falcons like to instinctively hit confirm a nair->grab. but if you CC the nair, and they still grab (out of habit or whatever) then they will get slide, have their hitstun cancelled by landing, and whiff a grab which you can punish. its not a gamebreaker or anything, just a little thing to look out for.

Oh yeah I misread, sorry. I was thinking CC both hits of the nair. I haven't really messed around with CC first hit -> shine but I see what you're saying.

 

[Cyrain]

Yea I posted earlier that I'm a fan of grab --> utilt combos on falcon or waveshine --> turn around utilt or any other way you might sneak them in. He can be juggled so stupidly easy and if you drop the combo, picking it back up with a tech chase is cake. Hopefully all this **** has helped out 4ace lol

 

[ChivalRuse]

Has all this anti-Falcon nonsense gotten you guys past Thumbs' cheapness in tournament?

 

[Wenbobular]

What's your point Joe ... Thumbs is a better player than I am even though I think I have a fairly solid grasp on the matchup -_-

Whatever, I'll get him next time now that I'm playing FALCO

 

[Palpi]

What is everyone's thought on nair to grab? I know it isn't always a combo, but it seems to work sometimes...whether it catches people off guard or not..i dunno.

 

[unknown522]

man, I was just on the phone for 2 hours with Raynex and we were inventing random training mode combos with fox and falco.

SOOOOOOO GOOOOOOD!

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

rofl that's funny, never ever heard of anyone doing that

so what a bunch of noDI combos you mean?

 

[JPOBS]

some of raynex and unknwn's no di/cpu combos are tight as yoga pants.

 

[Winston]

Has all this anti-Falcon nonsense gotten you guys past Thumbs' cheapness in tournament?

what the heck? I've never played him in tournament as Fox...

What is everyone's thought on nair to grab? I know it isn't always a combo, but it seems to work sometimes...whether it catches people off guard or not..i dunno.

nair to grab ***** imo...

The only concern is them CCing the nair, so only do it in situations where you are fairly sure what kind of hit you're getting (i.e. if it's an overshot nair to catch their dash back, they won't be CCing then).

 

[ChivalRuse]

what the heck? I've never played him in tournament as Fox...

I was talking more to cyrain/chillin

 

[Sinji]

So ive been wanting to ask this question for some time.

often times fox would approuch sheik with a nair but sheik would CC>dsmash. Im concerned about this cause foxes get punished after the dsmash then gets tech chased. Is their any way I can avoid this problem? Any advice?

 

[Silent Wolf]

So ive been wanting to ask this question for some time.

often times fox would approuch sheik with a nair but sheik would CC>dsmash. Im concerned about this cause foxes get punished after the dsmash then gets tech chased. Is their any way I can avoid this problem? Any advice?

dont use nair vs sheik as an approach

unless she in the air

but that doesnt mean if shes in the air, use nair all the time.

 

[Kosine]

it seems to me that nair isnt usually very good against most characters when they are grounded if they arent at high percent. approach with dair more often, watch how lucky does it.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Its just finding that balance between getting close enough from the air without a lead hitbox and attacking as late as possible to avoid being CC. So if u can nair mad late into a shine....its all good. Otherwise watch out for CC rapist.

 

[Cyrain]

Has all this anti-Falcon nonsense gotten you guys past Thumbs' cheapness in tournament?

The last time I played Thumbs seriously was at Sypher's. We did 5$ MM vs my fox. I 2-0'd him. Challenged me again, 2-0'd him. Challenged my Falco. 2-0'd him. Challenged my falco again. 2-0'd him. Also don't think I've ever lost to Hax (that I can think of off the top of my head...Not any time since I've goten good anyway) including a narrow victory over him at SPOC with falco when I didnt even use falco. That being said...@ WENBOBULAR, I guess I just didn't explain myself very well, but I'd like to think my methods are good. Like I said, I don't mean just getting on a platform and jumping out and trying to hit him or some silly ****. I'd just get spaced and grabbed. Using platforms on levels with a high/middle platform allows for you to sort of force him into whatever position you want. Falcon isnt likely to just jump up and Uair at you lmao. Anything he can do you punish you on a platform will be easy to see. I just enjoy using them as a spacing mechanism and ****. I'd say it was the least important part of the advice I wrote and definitely won't aid everyone's style. I just love platforms. I spend plenty of time on neutral ground just dash dancing, lasering, and waiting for openings too.

 

[Divinokage]

You lost to my falcon though.

 

[Cyrain]

LOL I do remember that. Genesis right? Dunno how/why that would ever happen lmfao. Wouldn't ever happen again <3 Tournament > MMs is my john.

 

[Strong Badam]

Its just finding that balance between getting close enough from the air without a lead hitbox and attacking as late as possible to avoid being CC. So if u can nair mad late into a shine....its all good. Otherwise watch out for CC rapist.

empty shorthop -> shine/grab ***** CC
just mix it up

 

[Cyrain]

Also very true @ strongbad. I love empty hop tricksies, particularly on shield heavy players (Even though I am one) because it opens all sorts of avenues to insane mindgames. Also,it's nice to see a ****load of people jumping on this topic and helping 4Ace out with matchup info. @ 4Ace, props for playing blue fox =D Yeeeee

 

[Divinokage]

LOL I do remember that. Genesis right? Dunno how/why that would ever happen lmfao. Wouldn't ever happen again <3 Tournament > MMs is my john.

It's because I don't follow the general smash rules. But we can try this again. =P

 

[Winston]

Empty hops do ****, but how are they better than drill vs. CC? ...

And @ Cyrain, I think everyone just likes talking about Falcon cause we all think we're experts in the matchup or something. >.> lmao

And were these MMs vs thumbs at the recent circuit event? Or a previous Syphers?

 

[Strong Badam]

Crouch Cancel multiplies the hitstun of drill by 2/3 as well as halves the opponent's hitlag on every hit. For all you know, CCing drill could give your opponent frame advantage as opposed to nothing.

 

[Cyrain]

@Kage, hell yea

@Winston If a falcon CCs a lot, Im just going to drill him, yea. I just meant in general that empty short hops are great and tricksy. Also, I'd like to think I'm a bit of an expert at that matchup. I feel like I could beat 90% of falcon players with pretty much any top/high tier character.

 

[Winston]

@ strong bad

didn't know that... then why is drill one of the default answers to CCing, and why have I never seen anyone have a problem with it so far?

@ Cyrain

Right, I'm not saying you're not, I'm just making of myself mostly >.>

 

[Strong Badam]

There are several things that work that don't when speaking in frames. I'd have to actually go through frame advance to see if my conjecture is correct, but the facts I stated are true regardless. Drill isn't guaranteed to lead to shine just because it does against a non-CCing opponent.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Which Falcons have you had a hard time with, Cyrain? I mean, if ninety-percent encompasses those Falcons you beat and the other ten percent being a couple of other top-end Falcons that you had a difficult time with or didn't defeat. And why?

I'm just curious.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Cyrain]

The same falcons that everyone would have trouble with, I suppose. Hax, SS, Darkrain, Scar, S2J. I wouldnt be able to just bust out peach or marth or sheik vs. them and win. Maybe my Falco...Not sure yet. My fox, I'm confident, can beat any falcon player in the world as long as I'm playing well, but it's certainly not a guarantee. I've played Hax in tournaments many times and our sets usually end up 2-1 with generally close matches, with the exception of Apex where I beat him quite soundly 3rd match. I've only layed S2J once and it was in seriouslies at *Pound* 5 and I was beating him while under the influence with Fox and maybe Falco...Don't recall. As for "why" they give me trouble...I don't know. Because they're really good I guess lol. Hax won't always make perfect reads, but if he makes one good stomp read (I guess this goes for any good falcon) then you're dead.

 

[Wenbobular]

Haha Cyrain
Didn't mean to knock on your advice, you're better than me
Platforms just aren't my style @_@

 

[Cyrain]

No worries sir. I have a pretty bizarre style that I feel is distant from most other fox players. I don't NEED platforms, but I definitely prefer them. I ban FD against literally every top/high tier character except maybe sheik (I ****ing hate FoD and easy gimps on BF more than I hate no platforms) and Jiggs. I ****ing hate the "horizontal only" game that FD creates. Dash dancing around and seeing who can overshoot their aerials better than than the other person is really, really lame/annoying to me lol. My affinity for playing on platforms is the very reason that KirbyKaze took me to FD in our second tourney match at P5. *Shrug* To each their own mangz.

 

[Zoler]

FD and PS <3 as little platforms as possible but techchasing on platforms is so awesome, especially with grabs so I understand why you would prefer platforms.

Cyrain would you give me some advice for the falcon matchup, please? Not a full fox vs falcon guide, but maybe some extra tipsies and trixies that most fox players don't think about?

 

[KirbyKaze]

U-tilt beats his Nair.

But in all seriousness the last 2-3 pages have had a lot of Falcon discussion. Just look around ^_~

edit:

Cyrain don't trip you need platforms <3

 

[ChivalRuse]

Cyrain needs a lot of things, including Fox, to win. <3

 

[Palpi]

I love Cyrain's fox more than my family.

 

[unknown522]

yo, Cyrain gettin it in.