Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[PK Webb]

when trying to nair shinegrab i nair shine then empty jump i hear the z button click but i get nothing...am i pressing it too fast or too slow?

 

[Druggedfox]

If you're empty jumping you're probably doing the "Z" too fast; if you're empty jump nairing you're doing it too slow.

Also, just for the sake of correctness, for instant walljumping you don't just drop down double jump to the edge; rather, when you double jump back up to the edge you want to hug/climb the wall on your way up.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

when trying to nair shinegrab i nair shine then empty jump i hear the z button click but i get nothing...am i pressing it too fast or too slow?

you must be pressing the z button before you jump. if you did it during the initial jump animation, you would grab. If you did it after you were in the air you would do an attack.

 

[PK Webb]

thx guys also this is my most recent tournament play any advice wud be kool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4tGib9jO0k

 

[Lovage]

thx guys also this is my most recent tournament play any advice wud be kool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4tGib9jO0k

your fox looks pretty tight. i feel like you didn't have any glaring super bad habits; you mostly lost cuz of a bunch of small errors that added up.

you had a couple really obvious sidesteps after you missed a nair. this is like the first thing marths learn how to punish lol, so against good marths you can't really get away with it at all.

you did a bunch of really bad nairs, the ones where you short hop nair immediately after landing on the ground or w/e, instead of dashing or overspacing at all. varying the distance/speed at which you nair will greatly reduce your chances of being dash dance grabbed by marth.

you had some bad DI in certain combos that messed you up. when he grabs you at <10 percent, remember to DI away and jump really fast or buffer roll so he can't fthrow regrab you.

you got grabbed like twice when trying to nair shine pressure his shield. in both cases you did your 2nd or 3rd nair too high so he grabbed you pretty easy. if you mix up the speed and timing of your nairs in shield pressure, people will have a much harder time doing anything out of their shield (they will waste a lot of inputs trying to grab/roll/jump while in hitlag because you keep using new timings.) i recommend doing every nair after the first one pretty late, and then from there you can mix it up if he starts adapting (wd'ing out of shield before nair hits)

in general i felt you were a little too afraid of marth's dash dance and space control, so you made some reckless attacks and bad decisions (understandably cuz its **** marth lol.)

don't be afraid to shoot a short hop laser or two to bait him into doing a bad approach, and then fullhop bair his approach or short hop nair it. alternativley, if you can punish him for being too defensive (overspacing your nairs/dash attacks to beat his dash dance,) this will also often force him into making bad approaches which you can punish by doing defensive ****

hope that helps some

 

[KAOSTAR]

What do you use to double shine after aerials?
And what method do you use to quadruple shine for shield pressure?

Just curious, as I've been trying this out myself.

Also, how do you perform an instant walljump from hanging on a ledge?

I always jump with x. if I don't care whether I sh or full hop such as when im double shining a shielded opponent at the edge after a nair or bair I just slide from b to x twice. I end in either a full or short hop (or dj if I suck) after the second shine.

but I multi shine by sliding y to b. its also how I jc shine at any given moment if I want to stay "grounded"

after an aerial I use the slide y to b method for my quad double or triple shines...and I go back to x to jump.

 

[Zoler]

who wants to mm at genesis?

sure! fox dittossss

 

[Winston]

What's the best way to deal with Samus' grapple sweetspot? Does grab the edge -> shine always work, or does it depend on how they did the grapple?

 

[omgwtfToph]

you can do it on other stages too, just not legal ones. you can do it on temple, yoshis island, mushroom kingdom i think. prob a couple others but i forget.

dk jungle (falls) yo

 

[FoxLisk]

What's the best way to deal with Samus' grapple sweetspot? Does grab the edge -> shine always work, or does it depend on how they did the grapple?

well i cant answer this like, ex cathedra, but i have played against samus quite a bit. my experience is that grab the edge -> shine always works, but you will get bumped off by their grapple unless you have ledge invuln right as it passes through you, so you have to time it pretty precisely.

 

[PK Webb]

Much thx lovage

 

[lanabo]

What is a running shine? I've seen it mentioned in a few threads and discussions and I'm confused as to what it is and how to do it. A video example would be appreciated, if possible.

 

[Wenbobular]

Just run and shine
You have to cancel your dash with a crouch though so it's not like instant but I think crouch cancels dash in like 4 frames or something fast so it's whatev

 

[unknown522]

thx guys also this is my most recent tournament play any advice wud be kool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4tGib9jO0k

your fox looks pretty tight. i feel like you didn't have any glaring super bad habits; you mostly lost cuz of a bunch of small errors that added up.

you had a couple really obvious sidesteps after you missed a nair. this is like the first thing marths learn how to punish lol, so against good marths you can't really get away with it at all.

you did a bunch of really bad nairs, the ones where you short hop nair immediately after landing on the ground or w/e, instead of dashing or overspacing at all. varying the distance/speed at which you nair will greatly reduce your chances of being dash dance grabbed by marth.

you had some bad DI in certain combos that messed you up. when he grabs you at <10 percent, remember to DI away and jump really fast or buffer roll so he can't fthrow regrab you.

you got grabbed like twice when trying to nair shine pressure his shield. in both cases you did your 2nd or 3rd nair too high so he grabbed you pretty easy. if you mix up the speed and timing of your nairs in shield pressure, people will have a much harder time doing anything out of their shield (they will waste a lot of inputs trying to grab/roll/jump while in hitlag because you keep using new timings.) i recommend doing every nair after the first one pretty late, and then from there you can mix it up if he starts adapting (wd'ing out of shield before nair hits)

in general i felt you were a little too afraid of marth's dash dance and space control, so you made some reckless attacks and bad decisions (understandably cuz its **** marth lol.)

don't be afraid to shoot a short hop laser or two to bait him into doing a bad approach, and then fullhop bair his approach or short hop nair it. alternativley, if you can punish him for being too defensive (overspacing your nairs/dash attacks to beat his dash dance,) this will also often force him into making bad approaches which you can punish by doing defensive ****

hope that helps some

Also, missing those edgeguards. He had the right idea a lot, but just timed/placed his moves poorly.

 

[Sangoku]

Is there a way to shine out of initial dash? Or do I really need to learn how to shine cancel by jumping first? =( It's so much harder than in 64.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

haha 64 shine cancels were the ****. but yeah, you gotta jump to cancel your initial dash animation. Its not too bad though, if you get in the air you can waveland on a nearby platform and then gain positioning.

 

[Sangoku]

Okay thanks for the quick answer! Well it's not like I'm very high when I do it (not high enough to waveland on a platform if that's what you meant), but I'm not perfect. It's easier with falco isn't it? And strangely in 64 even though it's rather easy to perform them, almost nobody can chain them.

 

[Wenbobular]

It's not that hard to combo shine -> runoff shine in 64 (not that hard as in doable by people who are good)

You can stay grounded if you do it right in Melee though ... same principle as grounded double shines

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

When i say waveland on a platform i mean shine near the ground then double jump. Your double jump will put you above the middle platforms on any stage, so waveland on that to increase your speed. I think its a falco habit I carried over to fox (though falco can double jump and land on the top platforms in certain cases)

 

[Wenbobular]

Sure, but you could also just do it grounded if you're good

 

[KAOSTAR]

When i say waveland on a platform i mean shine near the ground then double jump. Your double jump will put you above the middle platforms on any stage, so waveland on that to increase your speed. I think its a falco habit I carried over to fox (though falco can double jump and land on the top platforms in certain cases)

Brookmans idea of wavelanding down after a flubbed jc shine isnt too bad in certain circumstances. Def not something to shoot for tho.

and when u jump and waveland you get positioning, but any guaranteed follow up you had from hit confirming the shine is pretty much gone at this point.

 

[Brookman]

I freestyle the **** out of this game.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Any followup is lost? Look at shined blind bro, zelgadis combo'd aerial shine waveland into drill shine usmash in 06

 

[Brookman]

Zel-GA-dis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d250tJv2cNM&t=6m45s

 

[KAOSTAR]

Yes, and most mediocre foxes can shine waveland fall thru drill. Thats mostly a planned action tho. If you go in expecting a jc shine on the ground and you mess up its alot harder to make that combo. In shined blind...it been a little while since Ive seen it but I dont think those were specifically jc shines out of initial dash(if Im wrong, im wrong). I think they were more running shines, or combos done out of having somebody already in shine stun...which are both easier because you keep momentum or have time to plan out your actions. Or they literally just jumped and shined(much closer to the platform already) saving a bunch of frames in comparison to what we are actually talking about.

I just think its much harder to hit confirm a jc shine thats suppose to be grounded into DJ(which poses its own problems if u get hit out of it) waveland fast fall thru drill. Im not even making claims on it not being possible cuz im sure it is, just its one of those things where in most occurrences the opponent has time to shield, or they get hit because they do something like grab and get hit with the drill.

 

[RaynEX]

You guys have been dropping some great, constructive criticism late. I love the kind of discussion that's been floating around the last few pages.

Gooooood ****

 

[Brookman]

it's cuz I been too busy to troll 'round 'hur

 

[unknown522]

Raynex, call me *****!

or pick up

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

raynex, call him a *****, he's askin for it.

 

[unknown522]

I dropped the N word, but I forgot that it'd be censored

 

[Palpi]

What are peoples thoughts on nair->grab...it seems to work sometimes

 

[KAOSTAR]

Its definitely legit...but thats because Fox McCloud is the most legit character in the game. I dont think that Nair to grab combos as cleanly or as often as Nair to Shine>more **** or in most cases Nair to Nair. I guess when you are in that position where u can grab you have to ask yourself either what is going to give you better stage position relative to them or maximize damage. Sometimes I think its better to keep them worried and push them to the edges of the stage. If you cant seem to keep the pressure on tho I would take the damage and simply get ready for that killmove.

Things to take into account:
percent
ending stage position-can I go for edge guard?, can I get a kill? can I get more damage with grab?
platforms/stage-will platforms make it easier to kill or extend the combo? does it give them more options to escape?
character-if a floaty Id prob go for grab or uptilt, FF Id suggest grab or upsmash based on the situation
opponents tendencies-how do they react to being on the edge,

 

[Sangoku]

Wenbobular (late reply lol): by chaining shines in 64 I meant chaining them in place for shield breaking purpose for example.

I'm not sure I've understood well what was said though. If I don't perfectly jc shine, can I waveland on the ground (as if I were wavedashing)? Or am I already too high to do so?

 

[Strong Badam]

Crouch Canceling info

Peach:
Nair gets CC'd until the % after the nair is 90%, so 78% fresh or 83% completely stale.

Marth:
88%. 76%. 81%. He slides further tho.

Fox:
82%. 70%. 75%

Falcon:
95%. 83%. 88%.

Empty SH, late nair or Dair them to counteract CC, but don't become predictable. Enjoy~

 

[Cyrain]

Don't make me come show you ****ers how to play this character. >_< Quit Nairing and learn to space back airs and shine OOS and be gay.

 

[omgwtfToph]

In Lucky's old podcast from last year when he talked about countering Falcon, he said that nair to grab was one of his staples in the matchup and he thought more Foxes should use it. I think I agree. It's pretty good. It's better than nair -> shine wavedash grab anyway, which some Foxes still do even though it doesn't really work.

Incidentally, against good players, I've recently gotten into the habit of approaching with nair shine sometimes, and then if the nair to shine hits I'll wait for their reaction by wavedashing towards them but not near enough to where they could grab me - then counter what they would have done to punish me. Which for Marth, Falcon etc. might be a grab, or for Peach might be a dsmash. Here's an example of what I mean. http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_87136&v=6JVua9I5ZLM&feature=iv#t=12s M2K missed the punish on the dsmash, but you could easily punish that obviously.

I guess nair to turnaround utilt is better, but nair shine doesn't require any reaction time and is much safer since it gives you a "way out" if you nair their shield, etc.


Edit: Yeah, I really agree with cyrain on that last post actually. I think Mango showed the world how solid Falco's defense can be with bair zoning etc. and that type of playstyle can be extrapolated to Fox. I think Otto plays Fox with that kind of style, or at least that's what it seems like from recent videos. Thunders does it amazingly although he doesn't have any recent vids up. I've been trying to play more like that. It's not so much "camping" (running away, shooting lasers) as it is pressuring the opponent while staying almost completely safe.

 

[Cyrain]

AKA I'm awesome. Thank you Toph who I've never met. <3

 

[Strong Badam]

I nair and it ALWAYS works DAMN ****

 

[(*Jman*)]

NAIR is better dair i think

 

[KAOSTAR]

nair to shine is still legit vs side steppers and crouch canceling assuming you are attacking later. but I really like the late nair to reverse up tilt option. on most characters even if they cc u are still in the clear, and if im not mistaken it should beat a second cc grab attempt if u spam up tilt(idk about framewise, just in practice).

what do people think about drilling falcons approaches. ive been getting away with it and I don't know why. obviously not every time but ive been able to drill down on top of the start of falcons nair.