Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Brookman]

honestly, he probably just needs to back throw at the edge more.

 

[Cyrain]

Definitely wasn't playing that match up very well =(

 

[Strong Badam]

why did he DI like every knee badly

 

[Sinji]

I know that you have to nair when peach floats. I dont know if it will work but can fox wave dash backwards>fsmash when peach drops down for the fair and succeed? If not its just a trade of hits. Im trying to find mix ups when using foxe's fsmash against peach.

 

[omgwtfToph]

LMAO wtf??? finding ways to hit peach with a fsmash by riskily challenging peach's fair head-on? for what? peach isn't gonna die from fox's usmash until like 170%+. not to mention the timing of challenging a float canceled aerial is ridiculous since she could put her shield up instantaneously. why would you ever even think of doing something like that?

... so yeah, sinji post

 

[KAOSTAR]

toph u mean fox f smash at 170.

sinji- fox doesn't have the range like marth has on his smash attacks, fox has the speed. if u know that peach will come down with that fair u want to simply dash away and come back to punish...try baiting a defensive move from peach and punish harder.

 

[Winston]

Trading with Usmash is the best thing to do if she's at KO percent. But otherwise yeah you gotta get outta there if she's fairing you and you can't preempt it.

 

[Silent Wolf]

why did he DI like every knee badly

i dont get why people cant figure this out so often lol. its either combo into knee, or knee. if you guess wrong youre ****ed.

 

[Lovage]

LMAO wtf??? finding ways to hit peach with a fsmash by riskily challenging peach's fair head-on? for what? peach isn't gonna die from fox's usmash until like 170%+. not to mention the timing of challenging a float canceled aerial is ridiculous since she could put her shield up instantaneously. why would you ever even think of doing something like that?

... so yeah, sinji post

SINJIIII POSTTTTTT

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOl




edit: sup otto :]

 

[omgwtfToph]

toph u mean fox f smash at 170.

ahh yeah my bad haha. I guess talking about killing peach with fox's fsmash as a reliable counter to fc fair makes so little sense to me that my brain modified "fox fsmash" to "fox usmash" in a feeble attempt to bring logic into the situation >_>

i dont get why people cant figure this out so often lol. its either combo into knee, or knee. if you guess wrong youre ****ed.

LOOOL flashbacks from that youtube video

:3

 

[THeDarKnesS]

i dont get why people cant figure this out so often lol. its either combo into knee, or knee. if you guess wrong youre ****ed.

Are you just saying that it's very hard to DI properly against Captain Falcon?

 

[Brookman]

it isn't hard, its just. . . here is a scenario.

FD. mid-stage. you are 70% as fox. You get stomped. You DI left/right. Falcon now has an easy combo on you. Unfortunately, up air comes out really really fast. let's say you're holding away from the DI on the down air, and falcon short hops at you .. . . . . .. what is he gona do??

knee/up air.

DI one up and you might live, DI the second up and you will probably get kneed.

DI one left and you will surely die, DI the second left and you might live.


This is captain falcon.


http://www.ustream.tv/channel/progducto <-- zenith stream

 

[Sinji]

I guess fsmash wont work. but a lot of fox players dont use fsmash. people usually use it with falco.
@Kaostar: I agree with you when you say foxes speed but fox players now a days abandons his fsmash.
every move in the game is useful and thats what people are missing.

 

[Walt]

But why try to use some tactic that is not really going to be that effective when you could just dash away from the fair then grab for a bigger punish than fsmash would give? Not only would that be a bigger punish but a safer one too. WD back fsmash is a stupid idea in that and most situations. people haven't abandoned fsmash it's just isn't as useful as usmash. fsmash with fox is z decent edgeguard against falcon because of the delayed hitboxes on it, it is also used to edgeguard completely sideways moving up-b from fox and falco.

 

[KAOSTAR]

every move in the game is not useful. fox being the champion that he is, however, has all useful moves.

that doesn't mean wd back and fsmash resulting in u getting wrecked by peach players.

foxs worst moves are f smash fair f tilt....all 3 get used and have uses. ftilt is actually pretty legit.

if u want to f smash do it when it works aka edgeguarding falcon, free kill if he plays the "will I land on stage, edge cancel or grab ledge fade.

bottom line, fox generally has better moves in the same situation f smash works in, you shouldn't be trying to use it simply for the sake of variety.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

So I beat rat first round today in a close best of 3. Then I beat scythe and took kels to game 5. Lost to rat in losers in another close best of 3. Went all fox.

 

[Silent Wolf]

edit: sup otto :]

sup bro.

ahh yeah my bad haha. I guess talking about killing peach with fox's fsmash as a reliable counter to fc fair makes so little sense to me that my brain modified "fox fsmash" to "fox usmash" in a feeble attempt to bring logic into the situation >_>



LOOOL flashbacks from that youtube video

:3

LOL yeah. i figured he was gonna cmbo me cuz hes ss but nah, just knees.

 

[Strong Badam]

I DI down and away and change my DI if he knees. I guess I have good reaction time or something but you have 26 frames from the start of the knee animation to change your DI.

and when a peach is floating with fairs I like to dash under her and bair her from behind. obv. you have to mix things up otherwise you'll get predicted and bair'd but yea

EDIT: good **** Sveet! were vids recorded?

 

[Walt]

26? Why is it 26? Knee has 14 frames of start up. Falcon should already be counted as being in the air so no need to count 7 frames of jump animation, and then I can't imagine there are 12 hitframes off knee. So you wouldn't you be DIing or prepared to SDI the uair and ready to react to the 14 frames for knee?

 

[Strong Badam]

13 frames before the hitbox comes out. 13 frames of hitlag.

Hitlag = floor{floor{(Damage/3+ 3)} * Electric}
damage is damage, Electric is 1.5 if the attack is electric and 1.0 if it isn't.

For knee:
Hitlag = floor{floor{(18/3+ 3)} * 1.5}
= floor{9 * 1.5}
= floor{13.5}
13 frames.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Nothing was recorded. Our only good video person is trail and he doesn't go to anything lol

 

[Walt]

13 frames before the hitbox comes out. 13 frames of hitlag.

Hitlag = floor{floor{(Damage/3+ 3)} * Electric}
damage is damage, Electric is 1.5 if the attack is electric and 1.0 if it isn't.

For knee:
Hitlag = floor{floor{(18/3+ 3)} * 1.5}
= floor{9 * 1.5}
= floor{13.5}
13 frames.

Huh, ok. I've never seen the calculation for hitlag before. Cool.

 

[Jake13]

Strongbad beasting with knowledge

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Strongbad you should write that in C so you don't have to do that redundant floor stuff. Int division baby!

 

[omgwtfToph]

I guess fsmash wont work. but a lot of fox players dont use fsmash. people usually use it with falco.
@Kaostar: I agree with you when you say foxes speed but fox players now a days abandons his fsmash.
every move in the game is useful and thats what people are missing.

every move in the game is useful but fsmashing peach's float is probably not the best way to apply fox's fsmash

 

[chillindude829]

Did anyone see me beat jman then lose

 

[Teczer0]

Did anyone see me beat jman then lose

Had a front row seat Chillin.

Good **** though Chillin.

 

[JPOBS]

i agree about the whole "is he going to combo or knee" thing when trying to DI vs falcon, but Joe was getting hit by tons knees from flat, neutral situations, when he wasn't even mid combo. He would just be doing fox stuff and then get terribad DI on random knees.

the only thing I can guess was that he was trying to CC/shine approaches he thought would be nairs.

 

[Brookman]

anyone wana give me a run down of the event (zenith).

 

[Palpi]

I entered my first melee tournament being zenith. I made it into brackets

My pool had Nando and Kage, I lost 2-1 to Nando and 2-0 to Kage. Kage is too good. I played gmoney first round of brackets and beat his falco but got ***** by his Marth, he's pretty amazing. Me and t. Webb played in losers and I lost 2 close games, good **** t. Webb, I still need to improve.

Axe and Kage won teams.

Singles
Hbox
M2k
Axe
Jman?

 

[PK Webb]

anyone wana give me a run down of the event (zenith).

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=294092&page=50

 

[FoxLisk]

Did anyone see me beat jman then lose

hahaha yeah. grats on your overall placement though, you did mad good.

 

[omgwtfToph]

chillin!! good **** dude!

man VA had to take itself out huh? kinda ****ty how that worked out in the bracket :x


edit: Hey, I got a few questions about fighting Doc for all of you guys in the know.

1. How reliable is waveshine to usmash? Is it worth going for? Seems like if my techskill isn't like, PERFECT, it's pretty easy to be just late enough for Doc to get his shield up. Or should I just waveshine -> walk -> usmash instead of trying to waveshine -> dash -> usmash?

2. What's the option tree out of grab? How good is dthrow, and if it's not good, what should I do after uthrow? I see cactuar do dthrow into stuff in all his sets vs Brandon (man, there was definitely a period where those two played at like every national lol)

3. Best way to punish Docs who come down from the sky with dair? I was seeing some success yesterday trying to space a running bair so that I wouldn't get hit by the dair but I wonder if there's anything better.

 

[Cactuar]

I don't recommend Fox players trying to learn the dthrow techchase. That relies pretty heavily on my reaction speed in addition to just having lucky reads once in a while...

 

[Brookman]

I recommend it.

 

[Jake13]

I looooove dthrow tech chase <33

Sometimes its really easy

Sometimes its not

 

[chillindude829]

vs chars with high priority aerial moves (doc luigi ICs) i usually up throw and maybe jump just to trick them then i up tilt them as they're falling on top of me w/ whatever aerial, up tilt will almost always win if u time it right

 

[Strong Badam]

Strongbad you should write that in C so you don't have to do that redundant floor stuff. Int division baby!

I can generally calculate the hitlag mentally; it's not that difficult. I usually show all of the work, even the easy stuff, when I'm showing how it works here on SWF though.
Maybe after I learn some programming second semester next year I'll do this stuff lol.

 

[Winston]

1. How reliable is waveshine to usmash? Is it worth going for? Seems like if my techskill isn't like, PERFECT, it's pretty easy to be just late enough for Doc to get his shield up. Or should I just waveshine -> walk -> usmash instead of trying to waveshine -> dash -> usmash?

waveshine -> dash -> JC usmash with a reasonably good wavedash, and it true combos consistently.

2. What's the option tree out of grab? How good is dthrow, and if it's not good, what should I do after uthrow? I see cactuar do dthrow into stuff in all his sets vs Brandon (man, there was definitely a period where those two played at like every national lol)

3. Best way to punish Docs who come down from the sky with dair? I was seeing some success yesterday trying to space a running bair so that I wouldn't get hit by the dair but I wonder if there's anything better.

2 and 3 are kinda related since uthrow sets up for 3. On Mario/Doc/Luigi I think it's best to operate with a Marth mindset and just throw them upwards to get a huge positional advantage that is likely to lead to more punishes.

What chillin said is pretty **** since there's not much of a risk involved, and since if they try to do something instead of come down with an aerial (double jump, airdodge, whatever) you can follow them and they're still in danger. If the utilt connects you usually get a ton of damage too if it's at low percents.

It's not as good when there are platforms I guess; then you should probably go with spaced bairs. If it's near the edge kinda, bair can be really good since they don't want to DI away and you can land a bunch of consecutive fulljump AC bairs.

At some percents on no DI you can just go for uthrow uair anyway. I'm not sure if it ever true combos, but if you're fast, then even if their aerial will starts to come out the uair will beat it. Basically it depends on the uthrow putting them in exactly the right spacing for a full jump uair.

 

[Metal Reeper]

Only Charctuar and Colbol can Dthrow tech-chase <3