Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Brookman]

just posting to make people jealous: Cort and I are taking a trip down to Port Chester this weekend.

(Y)

 

[unknown522]

cool, go **** cort and PC Chris

 

[Sinji]

Whats the main thing to look out for against ICs apart from Woobling?

 

[JPOBS]

l-cancel timing.

hitting two bodies/shields > hitting one

 

[KirbyKaze]

Beware of their dash attack, Uair, D-smash, F-tilt, and Bair.

Those are their fast moves. They all knock you over or launch for combos (mostly into grab). You don't want to be hit by those moves because being knocked over gives them a chance to grab you (bad). And being launched into grab gives them a chance to grab you (also bad).

Jab is also a concern. Mercifully, CC buffering stuff out of it is a pretty good way around it (I recommend jump but find your own creative stuff!). Partially because it removes the legitimacy of the combo, and partially because Ice Climber players are silly and try to Jab > grab as a legitimate combo a lot (read: always). If they were gay, they would Jab > wait for buffered CC action (usually roll or jump) > grab or move that launches into grab (so they can grab you; notice a common theme?) but usually they get antsy at the thought of an opening and don't do gay things like that (which is strange, because they're playing Ice Climbers, but I suppose this is the only reason their homosexuality levels aren't high enough to make them play Puff).

That said, basically watch out for any position they can do a fast move in, and be aware of their fast moves. Everything else they try to do is really transparent and you can probably just deal with it as it comes. Fast moves, being fast, don't always give you this luxury.

 

[Sinji]

Beware of their dash attack, Uair, D-smash, F-tilt, and Bair.

Those are their fast moves. They all knock you over or launch for combos (mostly into grab). You don't want to be hit by those moves because being knocked over gives them a chance to grab you (bad). And being launched into grab gives them a chance to grab you (also bad).

Jab is also a concern. Mercifully, CC buffering stuff out of it is a pretty good way around it (I recommend jump but find your own creative stuff!). Partially because it removes the legitimacy of the combo, and partially because Ice Climber players are silly and try to Jab > grab as a legitimate combo a lot (read: always). If they were gay, they would Jab > wait for buffered CC action (usually roll or jump) > grab or move that launches into grab (so they can grab you; notice a common theme?) but usually they get antsy at the thought of an opening and don't do gay things like that (which is strange, because they're playing Ice Climbers, but I suppose this is the only reason their homosexuality levels aren't high enough to make them play Puff).

That said, basically watch out for any position they can do a fast move in, and be aware of their fast moves. Everything else they try to do is really transparent and you can probably just deal with it as it comes. Fast moves, being fast, don't always give you this luxury.

Thanks for the advice.
When you talking about CC buffering out of attacks, I simply jump>shine them then punish.

 

[FoxLisk]

Beware of their dash attack, Uair, D-smash, F-tilt, and Bair.

Those are their fast moves. They all knock you over or launch for combos (mostly into grab). You don't want to be hit by those moves because being knocked over gives them a chance to grab you (bad). And being launched into grab gives them a chance to grab you (also bad).

Jab is also a concern. Mercifully, CC buffering stuff out of it is a pretty good way around it (I recommend jump but find your own creative stuff!). Partially because it removes the legitimacy of the combo, and partially because Ice Climber players are silly and try to Jab > grab as a legitimate combo a lot (read: always). If they were gay, they would Jab > wait for buffered CC action (usually roll or jump) > grab or move that launches into grab (so they can grab you; notice a common theme?) but usually they get antsy at the thought of an opening and don't do gay things like that (which is strange, because they're playing Ice Climbers, but I suppose this is the only reason their homosexuality levels aren't high enough to make them play Puff).

That said, basically watch out for any position they can do a fast move in, and be aware of their fast moves. Everything else they try to do is really transparent and you can probably just deal with it as it comes. Fast moves, being fast, don't always give you this luxury.

this is an awesome post. +1

 

[KirbyKaze]

Thanks for the advice.
When you talking about CC buffering out of attacks, I simply jump>shine them then punish.

CC + c-stick direction + R/L/Z is twwoooo maw faulcaaan gooouut

Jump is good because of a few insufficiencies of the Shine - Shine hits for only one frame, which is relevant when you're fighting a character whose illegitimate grab setup involves a hammer, that outranges your Shine. When I actually mained ICs, I remember many stocks acquired from Foxes that would CC Shine and I'd be too far for their blinker to hit. This consequently countered their uncreative crouch cancel counter and killed them (or at least it would have, if I knew how to do CGs!).

Also, sometimes Shining Popo will get you grabbed by Nana because of the frame delay in their actions (there's freaking two of them!) and depending on positioning that can be bad. Though this is a very small concern, truthfully. Just thought it should be noted since it's a screwy, inconsistent behavior that can come up (ICs are riddled with 'em).

Thus I like jump because it positions you nice and away from them and you have plenty of options so long as there's a platform overhead to waveland off of. It also doesn't involve you lagging on the ground, which reduces the likelihood of being grabbed. Like anything it can get predictable when overused, but forcing ICs to combo or punish without grab is typically considered a good thing!

 

[KAOSTAR]

Yea ICs are the bull****. Even things like shield pressure can be worse against them. I recommend doing aerials as late as possible to account for the extra hitlag.

@KK-are u saying to buffer things like upsmash (smash attacks)and **** out of CC or are u talking about rolling and sidestepping

 

[FoxLisk]

Yea ICs are the bull****. Even things like shield pressure can be worse against them. I recommend doing aerials as late as possible to account for the extra hitlag.

@KK-are u saying to buffer things like upsmash (smash attacks)and **** out of CC or are u talking about rolling and sidestepping

okay so im gonna go out on a limb here and make some reasonable-sounding things up:

1) KK says that buffering jump works, but he also says that it works in part because it abuses IC players' liability to go for non-guaranteed punishes. Like, if they assumed you were gonna jump they could punish it, but IC players tend to punish staying in shield/spot dodges/not CCing, so the fact that it works against those punishment is sufficient to make it viable.

2) KK also says (i promise ill make a bullet point that isn't just KK says) that you should explore other options, but CC jump works for him. This relates to the above: basically, CC jump works against IC players, but other CC techniques qualify as valuable mixups against the ICs as a character. So if your opponent catches on to your CC jump attempts, mix in other **** and figure out how to get out of that guy's clutches.

3) Upsmash is a lot slower (like 6 frames iirc) than buffer roll, so only do it if you're confident that it will work in your situation. Also you can't buffer upsmash. but it's like very often a good idea to usmash OoS if it's an option, because usmash raeps.

4) 1 and 2 were so close to being the same statement that I decided to include a fourth bullet point. Um, some random advice: focus on either popo or nana but never be indecisive about it. I'm sorry this bullet point is useless, I'm a little drunk.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I was mainly looking at the technical aspect of what he was saying, not the IC MU itself. I dont know if Ill ever really learn Fox vs IC. ATM I prefer M2 vs IC, and I dont have any IC players to practice on/with.

So I was really just trying to confirm the actions of holding Down on control stick aka CC. and holding R + C stick direction. Normally, shielding and using C stick will buffer rolls, jumps, and sidesteps. But if u input C stick and R at the same time then smash attacks override the shield action. Meaning you will get upsmash, fsmash, or dsmash instead or roll L, roll R, sidestep, jump.

So I was just wondering if Im CC and holding shield + C stick....will I get a roll/sidestep/jump..or will I get upsmash/dsmash/fsmash.

 

[Brookman]

**** ICs. Just Shine and up smash the **** out of them.

 

[Winston]

I think nair spam is amazing vs. ICs once you get them out of sync or separated. If nana isn't at KO percents/isn't right near the edge where you can obviously kill her, it's way more efficient than trying to hit her with smash attacks and being vulnerable to popo. Nairing nana to the edge of the stage should lead to a jump shine -> edgeguard opportunity.

Of course if you can waveshine nana really well that might be better but I'm not sure if that requires JC shines.

Nair spam is more broadly applicable too because it lets you fluidly switch targets as is appropriate. You can pressure popo a bunch until an opportunity presents itself to go after nana, and if you land a hit that knocks him into the air you might have a chance to kill him outright. It also has the best DPS that fox can do by far, so if you don't end up killing one of them before they recoup then you've gotten some tangible benefit at least.

 

[Cyrain]

Damn.
Kirbykaze I only need YOU baby.
Palpi #1 fan <3
Unknown I love you
Chivalruse **** you boy Ima show you

 

[unknown522]

aww, much love dude!

 

[ChivalRuse]

Chivalruse **** you boy Ima show you

You've got a good thing going with Fox. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

 

[KirbyKaze]

@KK-are u saying to buffer things like upsmash (smash attacks)and **** out of CC or are u talking about rolling and sidestepping

In the time it took you to type that question out, you could have tried the buffer input(s) I posted yourself.



At any rate, you actually can't buffer smashes using the input I suggested so I am talking about jump, roll, and sidestep.

 

[JPOBS]

It also has the best DPS that fox can do by far

DPS? que?

im thinking damage per ____ but idk....

 

[Winston]

second.

idk. isn't it a common term?

I don't even play any game that uses that term, I've just heard it enough that I'm used to it I guess

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

i don't think DPS can apply to smash at all, lolol


best TAS ive seen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OjwB-SauqU&feature=feedlik

 

[Divinokage]

Ya you can definitely DI the shine. It's better to SDI it though, I mixed up in between CC and DIing inwards or DIing outwards.. and now it's x10 harder for the Fox to successfully waveshine to grab or upsmash because they have to rely on reads in between the shine and the follow-up rather than being garanteed. Learning that makes me feel pretty awesome as Ganon. =P

Edit: With that you can make it seem like you are invincible lol. It definitely hurts the Fox player psychologically.

 

[KAOSTAR]

In the time it took you to type that question out, you could have tried the buffer input(s) I posted yourself.



At any rate, you actually can't buffer smashes using the input I suggested so I am talking about jump, roll, and sidestep.

well being completely honest, I did. but I couldn't confirm frame wise if I was doing it early enough.

it takes a while to load up AR.

but anyway, I was thinking that possibly the override could be used as a buffer, but u have to actually hit c stick on a certain frame...so yea, u can't buffer smash attacks.

 

[Strong Badam]

shine's trajectory is 0, so optimal distance DI is no DI and just smash DI it during the hitlag.
mixing up your DI so they actually have to react after each waveshine is your best bet as Kage stated though

 

[Winston]

i don't think DPS can apply to smash at all, lolol

Sure it can. It applies when there's more than one opponent for you to face, since that makes the concept of actual elapsed time, rather than maintaining control, one of the constraining factors of your move choices.

So in singles, that'd be when you're fighting Ice Climbers.

edit: if anyone read the second part of this post before I edited I was being dumb and confused this with a post from the falco thread

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

i'm not sure i get you. DPS works in situations like world of warcraft, when fighting a boss you are constantly attacking the boss, so you have a constant flow of 'Damage per second' your 'DPS' scales your skill level.

In smash, you aren't constantly attacking 100% of the time, there is no 'race' for damage, there is no flow of damage your are constantly putting out.. DPS in smash is completely irrelevant to DPS in a game where the term is actually used :/

think miles per hour.. your constantly driving, so you have a constant MPH. There is no constant similar in smash.

 

[Winston]

But there can be a race for damage, where you can attack nana for free for a very short amount of time, but might not be able to kill her outright before popo is able to interfere.

It applies in teams too. Being able to maximize the amount of reward you can get off an opening or temporary 2v1 in a short amount of actual time is relevant. Of course KOs > all, but you aren't always fighting by the edge/they aren't always at KO percent, and if not then you're just trying to get damage.

And I didn't say I was trying to use it like in WoW or whatever. I specifically said I don't play any of those games. Isn't the phrase self explanatory enough to not have to be considered technical jargon for a specific type of game?

Lastly, it's an average rate. It doesn't matter if it's a constant rate or not.

 

[Strong Badam]

In teams if you kill someone at 0% that's better than dealing 100% damage and them living.

It's a silly concept and even if it's beneficial to think of that way at times, overall it doesn't apply to a game based on spacing and control as much as a turn-based game.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I think the semantics of the exact definition of DPS is getting in the way of understanding what he meant to say.

 

[Zoler]

In teams if you kill someone at 0% that's better than dealing 100% damage and them living.

It's a silly concept and even if it's beneficial to think of that way at times, overall it doesn't apply to a game based on spacing and control as much as a turn-based game.

What does DPS has to do with a turnbased game?

 

[Brookman]

How was rapture day for everyone??

 

[JPOBS]

yup, sveet is right, who cares about the semantics. once he explained what DPS was supposed to mean its easy to understand his point.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

How was rapture day for everyone??

We had a left 4 dead 2 LAN

 

[KAOSTAR]

How was rapture day for everyone??

I put in serious work on jc shines. as joe suggested awhile back, I was working on just barely runningpast a shielding opponent and jc shine to stop momentum. and also ****ed with actually using double shines after aerials, and quad shines in shield pressure.

for some reason I still have trouble doing shine into fair/dair to the other side of the shield. I keep getting stuck in the shine, probably because of being poor at shining straight down with no turn around.

also L4D2 is just meh, a shoot em up.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

l4d2 is a pretty good team based game, as long as you have 4v4 (which we did)

 

[PCHU]

I put in serious work on jc shines. as joe suggested awhile back, I was working on just barely runningpast a shielding opponent and jc shine to stop momentum. and also ****ed with actually using double shines after aerials, and quad shines in shield pressure.

What do you use to double shine after aerials?
And what method do you use to quadruple shine for shield pressure?

Just curious, as I've been trying this out myself.

Also, how do you perform an instant walljump from hanging on a ledge?

 

[Erkekjetter]

You can only instant walljump on Final D. You have to sweetspot the ledge from below while holding towards the ledge. I do it by just dropping off and double jumping back to the ledge.

 

[Brookman]

l4d > l4d2.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i don't own either game so i wont comment

 

[PCHU]

And how do you "reverse moonwalk"?
The thing where fox starts a moonwalk but does a slow turnaround and runs the other way.

 

[Silent Wolf]

And how do you "reverse moonwalk"?
The thing where fox starts a moonwalk but does a slow turnaround and runs the other way.

start a regular moonwalk, then do another moonwalk motion before the first moonwalk ends and it will go into the sticky walk animation. from there theres a certain timing where you can turn around with another moonwalk and do it again. the later you do the second motion, the longer it will go.

who wants to mm at genesis?

You can only instant walljump on Final D. You have to sweetspot the ledge from below while holding towards the ledge. I do it by just dropping off and double jumping back to the ledge.

you can do it on other stages too, just not legal ones. you can do it on temple, yoshis island, mushroom kingdom i think. prob a couple others but i forget.